2023-24 Celtics

[Jed Zeppelin]

Every loss feels like it Means Something when every loss is a close game. It's an unfortunate side effect of having an incredibly good team. So far this season the only game that has looked even remotely like a "just one of those games" games is the big loss @ Orlando. One truly off night out of the first 26 is amazing.

The far more consistent outcome this season has been stretching close games out to 6-10 point wins in the final minutes which ends up belying their quality in those types of games.

 

[CoffeeNerdness]

Yeah I'm not watching Lakers' fan takes on the Celtics.

Just looked over the 1986 Celtics game log briefly. Obviously the Current Celtics team doesn't have a top 10 (I think top 5 but whatever) player of all time, so it's not the 86 Celtics. However, these games were of note to me.

View attachment 75350

Even that great Celtics team went 4-5 in a December run, including back to back duds at Philly and the infamous Christmas game. Three of those five losses were against teams that were absolute garbage that year (Knicks, Cleveland, Chicago), none of whom had over 30 wins. Portland was meh (11th of 23).

Point is that this shit happens. It's a long season. In a game where you have to give significant minutes to Queta, ride Al like a rent-a-car, and Tatum has a bad ankle, against an experienced, smart team, sometimes you're gonna go dry. I'm not sure that there's any more lesson in it than that.

Sure, the greater point being that this can and does happen regularly is valid, but I think the consternation arises from the fact that we've seen this team with this core intact struggle in the exact scenario as last night and until they prove that this is behind them then the question will remain and this team will stay under a microscope-- fairly or unfairly. Unfortunately, without Porzingis in last night's game everything remains muddy. I think a declining Al in close and late situations has been a bugaboo. He's capable of being a monster in spurts e.g. going off versus Philly in the playoffs last year, but KP just brings so much more to the table at this point. Particularly the ability to get to the line, which Al just doesn't do. With KP in the game last night getting a few key trips to the line, it's possible the Warriors comeback fizzles out and whether or not they went ice-cold from the field becomes completely irrelevant.

 

[Petagine in a Bottle]

People are overreacting because it was another loss to the Warriors, a team that certainly seems to have the Celtics number. PTSD dating back to the Finals.

 

[wade boggs chicken dinner]

Keith Smith said as much today. That said some here appeared to be deeply concerned with the Celtics paying Williams one more penny than he is worth so maybe he wouldn't be perfect except on a rookie deal. I wish they still had him - the dude isn't great but he does some things exceptionally well - things like give those wide bodies all they can handle.

That said, Mazzulla didn't seem to be a fan and his run here was limited going forward so him leaving was happening regardless. But he would fit this current team well

Bontemps mentioned on Lowe's podcast that the Cs could have had Reggie Bullock (at just over $10M this year) plus an unprotected 2030 DAL pick swap. Bontemps said (his words, not mine) that the Cs "cheaped out."

Seems to me that Bullock would have been nice to have - either for playing or for his salary slot. But that's a lot of money!

 

[DavidTai]

Reggie Bullock was available at 3 million, he signed for that with Houston, and... wow I want Bontemps running the Lakers or Sixers, please.

 

[DeJesus Built My Hotrod]

Bontemps mentioned on Lowe's podcast that the Cs could have had Reggie Bullock (at just over $10M this year) plus an unprotected 2030 DAL pick swap. Bontemps said (his words, not mine) that the Cs "cheaped out."

Seems to me that Bullock would have been nice to have - either for playing or for his salary slot. But that's a lot of money!

IMO, Bullock isn't a fit on this team. He was always kind of league average at best at his peak and does nothing exceptionally well. He is the equivalent to NBA paper towels. I don't think the C's were being cheap - they just don't want a player who is relatively expensive and does nothing for them.

 

[the moops]

So then win the game if the gap is that big. 58 3 point attempts in a game they’re not shooting well against a team that they can get to the basket at will on(and did) Has Joe not learned from playoff failures of the past?

This was not a playoff game. It is a somewhat meaningless regular season game in the middle of December playing against a Warriors team that can beat anyone on any particular night. Stop trying to read too much into coaching philosophies or a team's heart when they lose a losable game

 

[m0ckduck]

Role players usually shoot better at home, but on the whole, this seems to fall squarely in the category of "things that will be weird early anomalies by game 82."

We see this with various stats and various teams every year, and then regression to the mean always happens. Last year, after 20 games, everyone was wondering whether the Celtics had found the secret of getting a whole team to shoot over 40% from 3. Turns out, nope.

This is fair. I've just gone from "this is definitely an anomaly" to "this is starting to seem stubbornly persistent."

 

[benhogan]

Sold on both.

As far as the bolded, I feel like I owe another mea culpa on that kid. I didn't expect the toughness and athleticism that we're seeing from him this year. Feels like he dialed up both, but I'm open to the idea that this was him and I didn't see it. Either way, long season--give him minutes. It's nice to rest KP/AL, but it wouldn't kill us to spread some of DW/JH/JB/JT minutes his way too.

Hey I'm still not 100% sold on him having more than a bit part in the playoffs. AND I'd be the first to pack PP's bags, if he + picks + filler landed them Caruso.

BUT PP is a perfectly acceptable regular-season player. He's always going to play with high effort on both sides of the floor and will occasionally catch fire. Being good for the 82 doesn't equate to a similar playoff role.

 

[wade boggs chicken dinner]

Reggie Bullock was available at 3 million, he signed for that with Houston, and... wow I want Bontemps running the Lakers or Sixers, please.

The point being is that even if the Cs weren't going to pay Bullock, his salary would have been nice in trade talks. (Note the $10M was pre-buyout.)

In addition, the 2030 unprotected DAL swap could be pretty valuable.

Again, it's not my money but even if he hadn't played a minute, having Bullock on the roster right now would mean that the Cs have more trade flexibility.

 

[benhogan]

The point being is that even if the Cs weren't going to pay Bullock, his salary would have been nice in trade talks. (Note the $10M was pre-buyout.)

In addition, the 2030 unprotected DAL swap could be pretty valuable.

Again, it's not my money but even if he hadn't played a minute, having Bullock on the roster right now would mean that the Cs have more trade flexibility.

Good point on the $10MM filler. Brad is very limited in what he can add in a trade at the moment.

They can win in different ways, but when they lose it's always going to be in the same way: Going ice cold from 3, and Tatum/Brown stall out down the stretch.

I think this is fair.

Tatum needs to improve his shot selection in regards to OTD 3s, that feels like the last piece to the Celtic puzzle.

Jaylen Brown OTOH has made a real effort to distribute more & play better off-ball defense.

Everything else from this team: Coaching, TOP8 players, deep bench is absolutely fine.

Nothing else, in the Celtics approach, to get worked up about.

 

[Pablo's TB Lover]

Definitely felt like the Warriors' Super Bowl.

Yeah I was tempted to go off the deep end right after the loss, but let's face it when the roles were reversed during the Warriors' peak the CELTICS treated these games like their Super Bowl and wanted to knock off the top dog. The Cs did pull out some nice wins against the superior Warriors on occasion, but it didn't mean much at the end of the season. Nothing to get too worked up about yet, that won't change even if they have a losing record on the trip overall.

 

[DavidTai]

The point being is that even if the Cs weren't going to pay Bullock, his salary would have been nice in trade talks. (Note the $10M was pre-buyout.)

In addition, the 2030 unprotected DAL swap could be pretty valuable.

Again, it's not my money but even if he hadn't played a minute, having Bullock on the roster right now would mean that the Cs have more trade flexibility.

Excellent point, thank you.

 

[chilidawg]

Only two things bothered me about that loss, having to listen to Harlan and Miller, and Tatum's half assed shot at the end of regulation. The rest I'm fine with writing off as regular season whatever.

 

[cheech13]

Reggie Bullock was available at 3 million, he signed for that with Houston, and... wow I want Bontemps running the Lakers or Sixers, please.

It wasn’t about Bullock specifically but that Boston could have had a usable salary and extra pick to use for trades at the deadline.

 

[DeJesus Built My Hotrod]

It wasn’t about Bullock specifically but that Boston could have had a usable salary and extra pick to use for trades at the deadline.

The thing we don't know - and neither does Bontemps - is why they chose not to do that. Was it all about saving Wyc & co money? Or something else? Bullock may not have been onboard for example - is constructing The Perfect Roster (blogger edition) worth pissing off players or their agents? Maybe? Or maybe Boston didn't see the same benefits of rostering him just to trade him.

Citing this as an issue strikes me as complaining that the temperature is a few degrees shy of ideal on a nice day. Its describing a minor issue and a solution that may not have ever been a possibility.

I will stand by the take that if not having Bullock or his salary is the difference between winning and losing this season, this team was never going to win.

 

[Auger34]

The thing we don't know - and neither does Bontemps - is why they chose not to do that. Was it all about saving Wyc & co money? Or something else? Bullock may not have been onboard for example - is constructing The Perfect Roster (blogger edition) worth pissing off players or their agents? Maybe? Or maybe Boston didn't see the same benefits of rostering him just to trade him.

Citing this as an issue strikes me as complaining that the temperature is a few degrees shy of ideal on a nice day. Its describing a minor issue and a solution that may not have ever been a possibility.

I will stand by the take that if not having Bullock or his salary is the difference between winning and losing this season, this team was never going to win.

You're working backwards from the result you want.

It's about saving Wyc money, and honestly, I don't blame them. They are paying a boatload for the top 6 and it's tough to justify paying $10M for someone that's an 8th man. It is technically "cheap" but it's hard to be too upset about it.

But it is something that does hamper Brad's ability to put together contracts for trade targets. Who knows if it ends up mattering (I hope that it doesn't)

 

[DeJesus Built My Hotrod]

You're working backwards from the result you want.

It's about saving Wyc money, and honestly, I don't blame them. They are paying a boatload for the top 6 and it's tough to justify paying $10M for someone that's an 8th man. It is technically "cheap" but it's hard to be too upset about it.

But it is something that does hamper Brad's ability to put together contracts for trade targets. Who knows if it ends up mattering (I hope that it doesn't)

I don't want any results. I go by the information I have and maybe its crazy but while absolutely not ruling out money - there may be other reasons that dwarf whatever the all in cost might have been. If it was even possible.

If anything, those assuming this sort of transaction was even viable are working from the result they want (the most clever roster ever). We don't even know if any of this was even on the table. Are they still cheap if it wasn't?

 

[Jimbodandy]

Hey I'm still not 100% sold on him having more than a bit part in the playoffs. AND I'd be the first to pack PP's bags, if he + picks + filler landed them Caruso.

BUT PP is a perfectly acceptable regular-season player. He's always going to play with high effort on both sides of the floor and will occasionally catch fire. Being good for the 82 doesn't equate to a similar playoff role.

This.

 

[DavidTai]

I don't want any results. I go by the information I have and maybe its crazy but while absolutely not ruling out money - there may be other reasons that dwarf whatever the all in cost might have been. If it was even possible.

Speculatively, if Reggie Bullock was on the Celtics, he'd play, the team gravitate to him the way they did Grant, and ignore Sam Hauser's playing time, which would hinder -his- development as well as providing opportunities for Stevens and Brissett to do something.

As it happens, I think Hauser's a better player, Bullock's not worth 10 million, and I'm not sure whether the salary filler to acquire a better bench player is worth it if you think Hauser is going to be better than anyone you could acquire with that spot. (Off the top of my head, I think the only guy I'd actually want with that salary spot that might actually be obtainable is Olynyk.)

 

[Manzivino]

The point being is that even if the Cs weren't going to pay Bullock, his salary would have been nice in trade talks. (Note the $10M was pre-buyout.)

In addition, the 2030 unprotected DAL swap could be pretty valuable.

Again, it's not my money but even if he hadn't played a minute, having Bullock on the roster right now would mean that the Cs have more trade flexibility.

Did Bontemps explain the mechanics on this? Because unless I’m missing something it wouldn’t have worked under the cap.

The new CBA went into effect on 7/1, the trade rules for this year limit taxpayers to taking back 110% of outgoing salary, and Grant only counted for $6.2M outgoing for the Celtics because of BYC rules (that’s why the generated TPE is that amount). By my math they would have had to add $2.92M to take back Bullock. I don’t know if you can even aggregate salaries on an outgoing sign-and-trade, but they had already traded most of their filler contracts in the Porzingis deal anyway. I think the only way they could have made the numbers work was by adding pre-extension PP, or Hauser+Kornet, either of which would have hurt the rotation.

I’m not sure if they could have done something with Blake’s rights but even if possible it would have been convoluted because of the sign-and-trade contract requirements and I’m not sure why Blake or Dallas would play along. In fact without digging deeper, I’m guessing that if Dallas were taking more salary in from the C’s, they would have had to send more out as well (because Grant counted for his full cap hit for Dallas), which the C’s couldn’t take in themselves, and around we go.

 

[joe dokes]

Sure, the greater point being that this can and does happen regularly is valid, but I think the consternation arises from the fact that we've seen this team with this core intact struggle in the exact scenario as last night and until they prove that this is behind them then the question will remain and this team will stay under a microscope-- fairly or unfairly.

An even greater point, IMO, is that to a segment of the fan populace, they can *never* prove it. What would such "proof" look like?
Haven't they had several games this season where they did not struggle in the exact scenario as last night -- that is, they put teams away?

 

[bigq]

An even greater point, IMO, is that to a segment of the fan populace, they can *never* prove it. What would such "proof" look like?
Haven't they had several games this season where they did not struggle in the exact scenario as last night -- that is, they put teams away?

Just a guess but winning it all this season is probably the best way to prove it. But I think we would hear similar complaints next season regardless of how this season ends.

To your 2nd question I would say yes absolutely but that generally goes unnoticed or doesn't really count until the playoffs in some circles.

People are mad that the Celtics lost to the Warriors again. I'm not happy about it either but saying last night's game means much of anything is pretty silly but hey that's what we do.

 

[benhogan]

Ben/Cody are showing the Celtics & Derrick White in particular some love

They went through all the recent trade breadcrumbs, for those that like that stuff

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cu33tXcZhio

 

[benhogan]

More independent criticism of the Celtics

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ah6o5Ci_WJ8

 

[HomeRunBaker]

TJD would have been a nice deep bench piece. Good 2nd round pick. Think he has some more NBA development in him.

I wanted him with our in the first round.. As it turned out we could have bought into the 2nd for him. Wasting a 1st rounder on a raw freshman when in win-now mode is as mindboggling to me in drafting Olynyk when rebuilding (with Gobert and Giannis on the board).

 

[HomeRunBaker]

So then win the game if the gap is that big. 58 3 point attempts in a game they’re not shooting well against a team that they can get to the basket at will on(and did) Has Joe not learned from playoff failures of the past?

Yeah you go stop Curry then.

 

[joe dokes]

Just a guess but winning it all this season is probably the best way to prove it. But I think we would hear similar complaints next season regardless of how this season ends.

I can deal with that if they win every playoff game in a blowout.

 

[benhogan]

I wanted him with our in the first round.. As it turned out we could have bought into the 2nd for him. Wasting a 1st rounder on a raw freshman when in win-now mode is as mindboggling to me in drafting Olynyk when rebuilding (with Gobert and Giannis on the board).

Yep. me too.

He was a no-brainer at 38

TJD put up better numbers his Freshman year than a lot of these 1 & dones. You're getting 3 years of IU development for free.

I'll add Podziemski & Prosper as my reaches at 25

BUT I'm still on Trace Jackson-Davis & Andre Jackson bandwagon

 

[RedOctober3829]

Yeah you go stop Curry then.

He had 5 fouls. Anytime they wanted to drive on him in the 4th quarter to foul him out, be my guest.

 

[DavidTai]

He had 5 fouls. Anytime they wanted to drive on him in the 4th quarter to foul him out, be my guest.

As I recall, they did try. Chris Paul immediately fouled a Celtic, gathered up the Warriors, and talked about rotating faster to prevent them from doing so.

 

[slamminsammya]

He had 5 fouls. Anytime they wanted to drive on him in the 4th quarter to foul him out, be my guest.

They did plenty. He even did a foul on Holiday they didnt call.

 

[chilidawg]

He had 5 fouls. Anytime they wanted to drive on him in the 4th quarter to foul him out, be my guest.

They kept trying to go at him, and it took them out of their offensive rhythm. Curry also drew a charge on Jaylen that seemed to me like it was the correct call.

 

[HomeRunBaker]

He had 5 fouls. Anytime they wanted to drive on him in the 4th quarter to foul him out, be my guest.

This is the NBA. Teams can't get out of their offense to attack a star w 5-fouls bc we all know that the officials aren't going to give up the 6th unless they are forced to do so. Curry is smart enough to know how to play w 5 fouls. Getting away from your usual stuff in this specific instance would have been a horrible idea no matter how loud Simmons wants to scream it. Horrible.

Edit: Since 2018, Curry has picked up a 5th fouls on 16 occasions. One time during this period has he picked up his 6th.

 

[wade boggs chicken dinner]

Did Bontemps explain the mechanics on this? Because unless I’m missing something it wouldn’t have worked under the cap.

The new CBA went into effect on 7/1, the trade rules for this year limit taxpayers to taking back 110% of outgoing salary, and Grant only counted for $6.2M outgoing for the Celtics because of BYC rules (that’s why the generated TPE is that amount). By my math they would have had to add $2.92M to take back Bullock. I don’t know if you can even aggregate salaries on an outgoing sign-and-trade, but they had already traded most of their filler contracts in the Porzingis deal anyway. I think the only way they could have made the numbers work was by adding pre-extension PP, or Hauser+Kornet, either of which would have hurt the rotation.

I’m not sure if they could have done something with Blake’s rights but even if possible it would have been convoluted because of the sign-and-trade contract requirements and I’m not sure why Blake or Dallas would play along. In fact without digging deeper, I’m guessing that if Dallas were taking more salary in from the C’s, they would have had to send more out as well (because Grant counted for his full cap hit for Dallas), which the C’s couldn’t take in themselves, and around we go.

No he didn't. You raise s good point. Do Lowe or Bontemps respond to tweets/email?

 

[riboflav]

Unless the game is out of hand the coach is always going to play the guy if he's medically cleared by the team doctor. It's like Belichick said in that one presser about Jimmy G's availability...."I'm a football coach, I'm not a doctor. The medical team is the medical team. I coach the team, the medical staff handles the injuries."

Completely agree

 

[riboflav]

Welp. Undefeated at home, .500 on the road.

So given who has missed games on the road I’d assume they finish better than 500 on the road. But still if they continue this pace and go 41-0 at home and let’s say 21-20 on the road they end up with 62 wins and probably the one or maybe the two seed in the East.

 

[Euclis20]

Interesting seeing KP remain in the game after rolling his ankle, despite clearly limping around for the rest of the quarter. Unlike Tatum, it just as clearly did NOT affect his play.

 

[riboflav]

This is the NBA. Teams can't get out of their offense to attack a star w 5-fouls bc we all know that the officials aren't going to give up the 6th unless they are forced to do so. Curry is smart enough to know how to play w 5 fouls. Getting away from your usual stuff in this specific instance would have been a horrible idea no matter how loud Simmons wants to scream it. Horrible.

Edit: Since 2018, Curry has picked up a 5th fouls on 16 occasions. One time during this period has he picked up his 6th.

Yeah when he got his fifth I was like Kerr should play him like has 4 and Curry can almost do no wrong now.

 

[riboflav]

Double Post

 

[riboflav]

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5tCIcwyFqTo

So I agree with his assessment here and it’s the same thing we go through with my team in film trying to teach a great shot vs a good shot. We have a rating scale based on 9. What is a 9 shot vs a 7 and a 5 and so on. All of these are qualitatively described to all my players from day one and even in situations. Context matters. I promise you the Celtics are aware of this and this is a work in progress especially and with new players added at this level much above my level this has got to be challenging. I’d like to see his breakdowns of when the Celtics win close games and how they took 9 or 8 or 7 shots as opposed to settling for a 5 or 6 shot or worse. I will die on this hill. This year’s team is not last year’s or the year before that. KP adds such a different dimension that allows them to play more for the 7-9 shot.

Fwiw what he is describing may be diagnosing some issues with the Celtics when they lose but his overall points are more to inform his viewers who are not necessarily steeped in the intricacies of basketball. They are not points that are new knowledge to the coaches or even that interesting to them.

 

[riboflav]

There is nothing that he said that would be news to any coach I know. To put it frankly. But to wish the Celtics would have the elixir to this is just going to frustrate you as a fan in Dec.

 

[Jimbodandy]

Nice bounceback game with Tatum and Al having the night off. From the beginning they looked totally in control, but Sacramento shot silly good and hung around until KP did his monster routine in the third. Loved Jaylen reading and reacting all night with 28 efficient points and 6 assists with no turnovers. White quietly the stud of the game with a quiet 28 on 3 missed FGs (yes 3).

Washes the taste of the Dubs loss out of my mouth for sure.

 

[kieckeredinthehead]

White quietly the stud of the game with a quiet 28 on 2 missed FGs (yes 2).

No 3

 

[riboflav]

My fundamental issue with the Celtics last year was that their two best players don’t play together enough. They hardly play two man games. Very little g2g screens. Etc. Said to my dad in May it’d be great if they could figure out a way to add a third and he can’t be a traditional 1 thru 3. So that the Jays can be in two man games with someone else bc it won’t be with each other.

 

[Jimbodandy]

No 3

Oops, I swear that it said 10-12 when I read it. Standing corrected. Still pretty ridiculous.

p.s., Was also nice seeing Jrue take over at times tonight.

 

[riboflav]

Nice bounceback game with Tatum and Al having the night off. From the beginning they looked totally in control, but Sacramento shot silly good and hung around until KP did his monster routine in the third. Loved Jaylen reading and reacting all night with 28 efficient points and 6 assists with no turnovers. White quietly the stud of the game with a quiet 28 on 3 missed FGs (yes 3).

Washes the taste of the Dubs loss out of my mouth for sure.

KP is the key. He allows the Jays not to play on islands.

 

[lovegtm]

This is fair. I've just gone from "this is definitely an anomaly" to "this is starting to seem stubbornly persistent."

Hopefully tonight showed you what it looks like when things start to revert. These home/road splits are just too big to last.

Also, this team is built different than any of their prior ones. They really locked in mentally as the game went on, and clearly were PISSED about the loss to SF.

5th game in 7 nights, west coast trip, B2B, no Tatum. Built. Different.

 

[RedOctober3829]

Was really nice to see the offense take and make 3’s in the rhythm of the offense rather than force them up. Great games from White, KP, Brown, and PP. Hopefully JT is back for Monday. Give him the Clippers game off.

 

[Eddie Jurak]

OK, with Tatum out, even 1-3 could be a successful west coast trip.