They attacked Murray pretty relentlessly in the 2nd half, including with KP.
They generated a lot of good looks, and also didn't get a ton of calls they probably deserved, so we feel bad, but the process was mostly solid.
2023-24 Celtics
- Thread starter 128
- Start date
They generated a lot of good looks, and also didn't get a ton of calls they probably deserved, so we feel bad, but the process was mostly solid.
In the same way teams Hauser hunt and sometimes get distracted, it looked a little bit like they were overly focused on getting Murray into the action, which stopped the ball from moving. Saw a post-game with KP where they asked him why he only got a couple of chances in the second half and he said he passed out of a couple of opportunities and maybe needs to be a little more aggressive looking for his shot.
I thought when he did get it in the second half, he was too high up, above the foul line, and he needed to get about three feet deeper so that his little turnaround is a bunny instead of a harder 15 footer.
Tatum's layup miss on the break where he both didn't make the shot and didn't get fouled is a pretty rare thing in the NBA. Usually the refs get you to the line there. He was frustrated by the refs all game once again.
At some point, Tatum has to start hitting some of these end of quarters shots. He was 0-2 last night. He was 0-2 the other night. It can be said over and over that defenses hyper focus and make the final shots super difficult so people are only shooting 25% on those shots until the cows come home, but is he even close to 25% in these situations? I can't recall one final shot of any quarter this year that's been a make. 25% by Tatum on those shots at this point would be a goddamn Festivus miracle.
Didn't he hit one, maybe 2 games ago?
Edit: end of the 1st quarter of the Houston game
https://videos.nba.com/nba/pbp/media/2024/01/13/0022300542/155/5ce754ac-3928-eb1f-9a9a-9ca1f8393f4b_1280x720.mp4
Tatum has been incredible in the clutch over his career. Maybe end of quarters 1-3 he hasn't been great, but end of 4th and OT he certainly has
Felt to me that because he bobbled the ball on his way to the hoop, the refs thought he wouldn't make it anyway and therefore he didn't "deserve" the call. Frustrating but probably typical ref-think.
Quick trip through the January box scores yields: he missed the final shot of the first half last night, he missed the last shot of the game, he missed with 2 seconds left in the 3Q v. SA (Brissett got the board and put up a shot so technically not the final shot), he missed the shot with 2 seconds left in the half v. TOR, he missed the final shot of the 3Q versus TOR, he made the final shot of the 1Q v. HOU, he turned it over with 7 seconds left in the half v. HOU, he missed the final shot of the 1Q v. MIL, he missed the potential game winner v. MN, made the final shot of the half v. OKC, and missed the final shot of the 3Q v. OKC.
So in January he's 2/10 (20%) in these situations with one TO. 0/2 on potential game tying/winning shots. I'd imagine he expects better of himself and it would be great to see some more success going forward.
You're treading on sacred ground around here thou shalt not ever question the JAYs shot selection..... JK
Those recent failed shot attempts are somewhat surprising since Tatum had been 34/69 (49%) from 3 since New Year.
I will say JT is skilled at getting the shot off right before the buzzer & not giving the other team a shot.
So we have that going for us...which is nice.
Thanks for documenting that. I agree he thinks he can do better and I do, too.
But I also think it's becoming so predictable that it's him that you'd think they could get some misdirection going and use him to decoy a little bit and set something up for Jaylen or KP, who aren't exactly slouches at getting the ball through the net.
https://www.celticsblog.com/2024/1/20/24044895/elite-hoops-10-takeaways-from-boston-celtics-denver-nuggets-jaylen-brown-jayson-tatum-derrick-white
#7 is a perfect example of a Tatum settling for a mid-range fadeaway with 7 seconds left on the shot clock.
The whole possession was geared around getting JT the ball against Reggie Jackson. Mission accomplished.
Tatum either has to take it to the hoop against Reggie which will end in a slam or foul OR
draw the double and kick to a Hauser/PP for an open step in 3
#7 is a perfect example of a Tatum settling for a mid-range fadeaway with 7 seconds left on the shot clock.
The whole possession was geared around getting JT the ball against Reggie Jackson. Mission accomplished.
Tatum either has to take it to the hoop against Reggie which will end in a slam or foul OR
draw the double and kick to a Hauser/PP for an open step in 3
Looked to me like we couldn't stop or slow down Murray, basically all game. White got him a few times but that was it.
Also looked to me like Al on Jokic, with Porzingis free to roam off of Gordon, was a much more effective lineup for us, and once Horford went out in the endgame, I'm not sure we got another stop.
We can get 'em back on March 7th in Denver. I kinda want to figure out how to incorporate that one into a long ski weekend.
The Celtics took Horford out with 2:27 to go, while Jaylen was shooting FTs.
The Nuggets scored 1 point after that, when Gordon was fouled and made 1 of 2.
Wrt Murray: it's objectively true that they didn't slow him down, but he also made a lot of tough shots, many of them long 2s. I think you tip your cap and say your own offense needed to just score some points.
only thing on Murray was in second quarter bench mob and Jrue were in (with Jokic on bench) and Murray got six points in a row vs PP. At least last four weren’t switches—and bad idea to have PP on him there.
other than those I agree it was just Murray being great—didn’t see defensive gaps so much as him doing great
other than those I agree it was just Murray being great—didn’t see defensive gaps so much as him doing great
I agree, there were very few points in time where we just played "bad D". A few times we gave up an open kick-out 3 where we had over-collapsed, but it's not like we made mistakes. I'm just saying that it looked to me like Jokic was more leery about attacking Horford than when someone else (mostly Jrue) was on him. Horford got a nice tip on a pass under the basket, which basically nobody ever does on Jokic, got another tip that went into row G from the top of the key (so no turnover but it sent a message), and while Horford got backed down in the post a few times he also stayed in front of him and stopped the drive a few times. It seemed like a decent way to defend him.
They made some absurd shots, especially Murray and Jokic, as you'd expect them to do, and our stars largely didn't. I think Murray was 15 of 19 from the floor midway through the 4th. And it's not like those were just dunks and layups. You can say that's the difference between a win and a loss, simple as that, but what I saw throughout the game was a scheme that really de-emphasized helping on D, and Denver making us pay for it with post play and open 3s.
I guess my only real complaints from the game were the refs, and the play design / execution in the last 17 seconds. Does anyone else think Tatum should've pulled that ball out in the transition play where he missed the layup? Or that whatever we called in the timeout was just not what you'd want from an ATO setup?
They made some absurd shots, especially Murray and Jokic, as you'd expect them to do, and our stars largely didn't. I think Murray was 15 of 19 from the floor midway through the 4th. And it's not like those were just dunks and layups. You can say that's the difference between a win and a loss, simple as that, but what I saw throughout the game was a scheme that really de-emphasized helping on D, and Denver making us pay for it with post play and open 3s.
I guess my only real complaints from the game were the refs, and the play design / execution in the last 17 seconds. Does anyone else think Tatum should've pulled that ball out in the transition play where he missed the layup? Or that whatever we called in the timeout was just not what you'd want from an ATO setup?
I still don't exactly get what the complaints are about the defensive choice to not help tons, when Denver scored 102 total and didn't score much down the stretch? Honestly, the Nuggets were a bit lucky to hit 102.
The Celtics lost this one on the offensive end, where, as noted, our stars just didn't do any real shot-making.
The Celtics lost this one on the offensive end, where, as noted, our stars just didn't do any real shot-making.
I agree completely. Murray shot like he was in an empty gym on two’s, 12 for 14. Joker shot 75% And the Nuggets barely broke 100. Celtics mostly played straight up and stopped everyone else. The defensive strategy worked.
Denver was on fire from mid-range, at least in the first half, which is what I watched. In fact, if you take out their lousy three-point shooting last night (8 for 31), they made 34 of 50 shots (68%) somewhere between the three-point line and the rim. If you're shooting that well on non three-pointers, you'd have to shoot 44%+ to make it worth your while to fire up three-pointers instead.
Jokic was really abusing KP at will, early on. Then Celts started throwing double teams at him in the second quarter, and that threw Denver off, and Jokic committed a couple of turnovers. I think the good news is that, in a seven-game series, the Celts would come in with a more effective strategy for guarding Jokic and Murray (maybe depending on who has the hot hand on a given night; of course the disadvantage last night was they both did).
While the Celtics can throw different defensive looks at Jokic and Murray, I think it's harder for Denver to guard our starting five, because everyone's an offensive threat. So in a series, I would put that in the ledger in our column.
Jokic was really abusing KP at will, early on. Then Celts started throwing double teams at him in the second quarter, and that threw Denver off, and Jokic committed a couple of turnovers. I think the good news is that, in a seven-game series, the Celts would come in with a more effective strategy for guarding Jokic and Murray (maybe depending on who has the hot hand on a given night; of course the disadvantage last night was they both did).
While the Celtics can throw different defensive looks at Jokic and Murray, I think it's harder for Denver to guard our starting five, because everyone's an offensive threat. So in a series, I would put that in the ledger in our column.
This will upset a few of you that like using Make & Miss as the #1 explanation
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MsTLcORXG2M
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MsTLcORXG2M
The rebounding was a bit of an issue. They were 25% Oreb (averagey), 70% Dreb (poor). It only felt like they got a lot of Orebs because they missed so many shots. They made up for it with a large turnover advantage.
Ben Taylor had a nice watchalong video on the Boston-Denver game:
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVgYKkVCEdY
Ben Taylor had a nice watchalong video on the Boston-Denver game:
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVgYKkVCEdY
Last edited:
Couldn’t disagree more on this. The double was coming and Jackson recognized this so he shaded to cut off the baseline. What options did Tatum have here with the clock at :07?
7 seconds on a basketball floor, in the front court, is an eternity
MPJ helped on Tatum.
Hauser open 3 is worth more than a Tatum 2pt fade away or Hauser swings to PP for a 3 also worth more
Thanks for posting, just finished watching that. Love those guys
7:20 was the last time KP posted at the nail, and we wonder why they couldn't score down the stretch
Thats a little on KP and he mentioned post-game that he has to be more aggressive.
I thought this in real time - he was 1 on 3-4 and it's tough to get foul calls in that situation. The Celtics kind of lost their composure in that stretch and that to me was the biggest takeaway in this game. Make miss games you lose by ten. Celtics only had the 2 turnovers so it wasn't that (it's kind of a negative to lose and have that stat). They've shown they can play through Tatum and Brown's rough stretches. They got beat down the stretch by the champs. Not the end of the world but something to build on.
That was a good mid range look Tatum got - he just missed it. Hauser was not open, if anything it had to be a pass to Jrue cutting who would then need ot swing it to Pritchard. Even then, no guarantee that Denver doesn't recover.
Reggie Jackson turned his back into Tatum, that's how he stopped him from going baseline, which was kind of funny.
Pass to a cutting Jrue is also a better INTENTION, but #8 was going with him, which leaves a wide-open Hauser.
BUT either works.
FWIW a Tatum Pull-Up 3, which has been discussed ad nauseam around here is worth more than a Pull-Up mid-ranger from that distance. BUT whatever, we can just ignore higher % attempts and just opt for no guarantees on every alternative shot.
1. Hauser wasn’t open. Watson was right there to contest the catch nevermind the shot.
2. It isn’t about there being :07 it is about how the defense is positioned to react to anything other than a shot there. Denver was positioned perfectly to where we likely don’t get a shot off if Tatum passes the ball to a defenses Hauser. Why would you want Hauser with the ball to create a shot rather than Tatum when both are defended well?
If Watson #8 doesn't go with Jrue (the cutter), Tatum would have easily passed over Reggie to Jrue.
Can't believe we are calling an off-the-dribble Pull-Up mid-ranger a good FGA? especially with MPJ & Reggie Jackson (2 shitty defenders) doubling, throwing Denver into rotation. Must be some sort of 1980s time warp here.
I really wouldn’t call that a good look in that situation. Tatum gets the ball with 8 seconds and dribbled into a long sideline 2 pointer. I think he has to take it more aggressively at Jackson and actually use the size disparity to his disadvantage. Instead, he kind of dribbles away, almost like a step back.
Denver is thrilled with that FGA 100% of the time with Reggie Jackson guarding Tatum.
Nobody is saying it’s a good look. Under that game situation with :07 on the clock and a double coming while the one guy to kick out to is being stalked then yes, a Tatum off the dribble pull up mid range jumper is the best shot available at that point of the possession. There is a real good chance NO shot gets off if Tatum moves the ball there.
Tatum took it to the rim several times in the fourth quarter and was fouled several times.. not making the layup. None of the contact was called...which is probably why he was hesitant to go the rim there. Denver was allowed to play a pretty physical/hand checking/pushing/body etc. for most of the game... other than against KP where a lot of touch fouls were called...until the fourth quarter when nothing was called.
Thank you for this; there are times when make/miss is far too simplistic of an explanation for a game outcome, and the Denver game was indeed one of them. The Miami series last year was another. Winning ugly is a skill.
Also liked how he takes the refs to task for calling ticky-tack fouls. They should seriously stop with the hanging on the rim technicals; who the fuck really cares?
Thanks for posting this. It encapsulates a lot of what I’ve been trying to write and it’s been really hard to just keep reading box score analysis all the time. Was enjoyable and at least makes me feel less crazy
Agreed, Tatum got an inconsistent whistle most of the game
BUT the play/shot from JT in question was at the beginning of the 2nd Quarter.
It wasn't a "good" (or high % shot) which the article and another poster had said. @Auger34 was just pointing that out
I love me some Tatum, but man people blow smoke up his ass.
I thought he was referring to the last play.. so I misunderstood.
Regarding your last sentence.. thank god you're here doing god's work /s/
so commenting on a Celtics Blog article, that I posted (& you failed to read or look at it) isn't kosher for you, got it
Damn.. ok so I misread you again thinking you were talking about people here .. I think I was predisposed to think that given your game thread joke telling another poster to be careful about criticizing Tatum… so apologies.. I’m misreading all over the place.
This particular play was with 10 minutes to go in the 2nd quarter, so his decision to pull up in the midrange had nothing to do with not getting a whistle in the 4th
Anyway, I think we are all reading way too much into one possession at the beginning of the 2nd quarter. Tatum, and others are going to take some midrange jumpers. They can't always get to the rim, or can't always swing the ball for an open three. Have to look at the game as a whole and not just one or two possessions (especially in the early parts of the game).
When bloggers who are trying to generate as many eyeballs as possible get granular (*and what it means in the big picture!!!) about a sequence or a few or even a regular season game whereas seemingly no actual NBA players or coaches behave that way - because they aren't analyzing their jobs that way because nobody does or we would all be exposed for imperfect execution - you just gotta pay attention.
Maybe my dog will make a vlog about the next Celtics loss and how one game can tell us a lot about how the future will go.
Maybe my dog will make a vlog about the next Celtics loss and how one game can tell us a lot about how the future will go.
Checking in with old friend Grant. Sounds like he's been pretty banged up.
https://www.dallasnews.com/sports/mavericks/2024/01/21/whats-happened-to-grant-williams-he-wont-discuss-aches-says-shooting-will-return/
https://www.dallasnews.com/sports/mavericks/2024/01/21/whats-happened-to-grant-williams-he-wont-discuss-aches-says-shooting-will-return/
Through the first 13 games of the season (November 18), Grant was shooting a fiery .480 from 3. Since then, his 3p% has been just .287 (.369 for the year). I can't read that article, but that's a really rough fall.
MSN seems to have a readable version. https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nba/what-s-happened-to-grant-williams-he-won-t-discuss-aches-says-shooting-will-return/ar-BB1h2DwK
Thanks. Even as his slow start has made the Celtics look smart for passing, I'm not enjoying it.
I thought the Celtics played 10x better against Denver than against Houston, but one is a loss and the other is a win.
The 3s they generated against Denver were higher quality, and the defensive effort was so much higher. The offense had some issues, but they were playing with a lot more purpose.
This Houston game was one of the worst they've played all year, but they hit some timely shots and Houston was on an OT B2B without a lot of guys. The Cs "offense" in the 3rd quarter was a complete joke of an effort. Barely trying to get into sets.
I don't hold it against them in the dog days of January; just interesting to note how much results affect feelings after the game.
The 3s they generated against Denver were higher quality, and the defensive effort was so much higher. The offense had some issues, but they were playing with a lot more purpose.
This Houston game was one of the worst they've played all year, but they hit some timely shots and Houston was on an OT B2B without a lot of guys. The Cs "offense" in the 3rd quarter was a complete joke of an effort. Barely trying to get into sets.
I don't hold it against them in the dog days of January; just interesting to note how much results affect feelings after the game.
KP bailed them out, other than that they were un-good
(correction: Luke was good & there probably isn't a need to acquire a 3rd BIG)
I suspect KP will get the Dallas game off and it will be a struggle
It might be a struggle in Dallas....or Tatum might not play like ass again. He was really, really bad at getting to the rim and open midrange against Houston.
Lots of ingredients for a letdown. An emotionally draining game that resulted in a loss to a marquee opponent on national TV. Followed by a quick turn flight down to Houston (a city well known for "NBA nightlife", fwiw), and 2 starters resting. But yet the raw talent among the 4 starters that did play was enough to pull out the bankable win to maintain their 3 game cushion for the conference lead.
Credit to Mazzulla for ensuring that no Celtic exceeded 35 minutes (OK, Tatum did by 7 seconds). Should see more of the same tonight, after which they are done with the state of Texas.
Credit to Mazzulla for ensuring that no Celtic exceeded 35 minutes (OK, Tatum did by 7 seconds). Should see more of the same tonight, after which they are done with the state of Texas.