2023 Week 1 NFL Gamethread

Euclis20

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Aug 3, 2004
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It not unnecessary at all. The well understood definition of skill position is QB, RB, TE, and WR and it’s exactly what tweet says. Brown was not an All-Pro as a skill position.

It doesn’t devalue Brown in the least.
If we're getting deep into semantics, Brown was definitely an All-Pro and definitely a skill player. The tweet doesn't specify that they made the all-pro team at a skill player position.

The whole thing is stupid. Brown was the Pats best offensive player in 2001 (including Brady). Comparing him to Hester or Lewis is unnecessarily insulting to a great player, and for what? To make an already impressive Brady fact slightly more impressive? What's the point?
 

rodderick

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Apr 24, 2009
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Yeah, it’s unnecessary puffing, and it ignores what a beast Troy Brown was that year. One of the best players in football on offense and ST.
How is it unnecessary puffing? Is Marcus Jones an All-Pro corner? Troy Brown was really good in 2001, Troy Brown wasn't particularly close to being Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne, Tyreek Hill or Travis Kelce.
 

Euclis20

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Aug 3, 2004
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It not unnecessary at all. The well understood definition of skill position is QB, RB, TE, and WR and it’s exactly what tweet says. Brown was not an All-Pro as a skill position.

It doesn’t devalue Brown in the least.
If we're getting deep into semantics, Brown was definitely an All-Pro and definitely a skill player. The tweet doesn't specify that they made the all-pro team at a skill player position.

The whole thing is stupid. Brown was the Pats best offensive player in 2001 (including Brady). Comparing him to Hester or Lewis is unnecessarily insulting to a great player, and for what? To make an already impressive Brady fact slightly more impressive? What's the point?
 

tims4wins

PN23's replacement
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Jul 15, 2005
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Every team has a best offensive skill player. Even the 0-16 Lions did. Just because Troy Brown was great in 2001 doesn’t make him an all pro skill player. He wasn’t.
 

Euclis20

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How is it unnecessary puffing? Is Marcus Jones an All-Pro corner? Troy Brown was really good in 2001, Troy Brown wasn't particularly close to being Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne, Tyreek Hill or Travis Kelce.
Marcus Jones started 4 games for the Pats. He was on the field for 37% of the Pats defensive snaps. He wasn't in the same universe as Brown.

Every team has a best offensive skill player. Even the 0-16 Lions did. Just because Troy Brown was great in 2001 doesn’t make him an all pro skill player. He wasn’t.

The tweet says that over his first 94 starts, Brady didn't play with any skill players that made the all-pro team. That is simply not true, both literally (Troy Brown was a skill player who made the all-pro team) and figuratively (the tweet implies that Brady found success without any standouts at WR/RB/TE, and at least for 2001, Brown was an excellent WR).
 

Cellar-Door

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Aug 1, 2006
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Really a microcosm of every NFL "legacy" discussion.... a dumb mostly pointless stat followed by 12 pages of rules lawyering.

Yes the point of the stat is players who made All-Pro at a skill position, it's a dumb stat with no real value since All-Pro is mostly dumb, and it picks a stretch of Brady's career where he (and the offense) were not at the level they would be. Brady himself only made a single 2nd team all-pro during that stretch.
 

Euclis20

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I understand exactly what the tweet is saying. It's saying that Manning and Mahomes' numbers were propped up in part because they played with better playmakers than Brady, and regardless of how we classify Troy Brown in 2001, the sentiment is 100% true. I don't like that we have to hang our hats on it, because it's an odd attempt to explain away the fact that Mahomes/Manning had solidly better stats, even if we try to account for differences in environment (both indoor vs outdoor and early 2000s vs the current era). Any argument based on statistical performance for the first few years of their careers will go poorly for Brady compared with the other two guys, regardless of who he played with. His argument for being in the discussion based on the first part of his career is largely based on the success of the Patriots as a whole, and how Brady played in the biggest games (and Brown had huge catches on the super bowl winning drives in both 36 and 38, without which Brady's legacy might not be the same).

Rather than making insulting comparisons of Brown with the likes of true specialists like Hester or Lewis (or Jones, at least for now), we can simply recognize that Troy Brown deserves a decent amount of credit for Brady's early success. His performance in 2001 is as key to Brady's legacy as any individual season of Harrison or Wayne are to Manning's legacy, or any individual season of Kelce or Hill are to Mahomes' legacy. If we acknowledge that Brady played with a single all-pro in his first 6 seasons (compared with the multiple all-pro seasons from Mahomes' and Manning's receivers) it would be equally impressive, without shitting on the best offensive player of the first super bowl team.
 

snowmanny

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Dec 8, 2005
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The point is that Mahomes has a winning percentage of 0% without Kelce and Hill.
 

Mystic Merlin

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Sep 21, 2007
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I understand exactly what the tweet is saying. It's saying that Manning and Mahomes' numbers were propped up in part because they played with better playmakers than Brady, and regardless of how we classify Troy Brown in 2001, the sentiment is 100% true. I don't like that we have to hang our hats on it, because it's an odd attempt to explain away the fact that Mahomes/Manning had solidly better stats, even if we try to account for differences in environment (both indoor vs outdoor and early 2000s vs the current era). Any argument based on statistical performance for the first few years of their careers will go poorly for Brady compared with the other two guys, regardless of who he played with. His argument for being in the discussion based on the first part of his career is largely based on the success of the Patriots as a whole, and how Brady played in the biggest games (and Brown had huge catches on the super bowl winning drives in both 36 and 38, without which Brady's legacy might not be the same).

Rather than making insulting comparisons of Brown with the likes of true specialists like Hester or Lewis (or Jones, at least for now), we can simply recognize that Troy Brown deserves a decent amount of credit for Brady's early success. His performance in 2001 is as key to Brady's legacy as any individual season of Harrison or Wayne are to Manning's legacy, or any individual season of Kelce or Hill are to Mahomes' legacy. If we acknowledge that Brady played with a single all-pro in his first 6 seasons (compared with the multiple all-pro seasons from Mahomes' and Manning's receivers) it would be equally impressive, without shitting on the best offensive player of the first super bowl team.
Preach. Unless we are gonna subscribe to the ‘David Boston was more productive than Troy Brown’ 2001 newsletter.
 

Cabin Mirror

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I think Brady and Randy Moss played on the same team for greater than 0 games. And I’m pretty sure Moss was all pro when he set the TD record.

I don’t think it changes the argument a ton, but the numbers don’t seem right. i must be missing something.

maybe everyone is still repressing 2007 from memory?
 

3rd Degree

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Aug 16, 2008
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I think Brady and Randy Moss played on the same team for greater than 0 games. And I’m pretty sure Moss was all pro when he set the TD record.

I don’t think it changes the argument a ton, but the numbers don’t seem right. i must be missing something.

maybe everyone is still repressing 2007 from memory?
"first 94 career starts (including playoffs)"
 

dirtynine

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Dec 17, 2002
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Philly
I must be missing something, but both ESPN and my Yahoo fantasy app show the Ravens / Texans game as having started. Is that true? Or is there some data feed test happening?

edit - seems fixed now
 
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Jinhocho

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Jul 31, 2001
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How is it unnecessary puffing? Is Marcus Jones an All-Pro corner? Troy Brown was really good in 2001, Troy Brown wasn't particularly close to being Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne, Tyreek Hill or Travis Kelce.
He was basically Edelman or Welker.
 

Ale Xander

Hamilton
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Oct 31, 2013
74,259
Michael Thomas is back and he’s back big with a 25yd sideline catch


Edit: and I forgot Kamara is suspended for 3
Games
 

mauf

Anderson Cooper × Mr. Rogers
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Jun 22, 2008
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That hit on Howell looked dirty.