2024 Playoffs Eastern Conference First Round: (2) New York Knicks vs (7) Philadelphia 76ers - The Danse Macabre

PedroKsBambino

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You’re preaching to the choir here.

IMO, he’s big Harden. The type of player he is on the court doesn’t win. He relies heavily on grifting and getting a favorable whistle. If he doesn’t get it, he whines, make dirty plays, and turtles.

I’m down on Tatum compared to this board but I am so happy I never have to root for someone like Joel. He’s a loser
I have wondered what it was like to watch Wilt Chamberlain, capable of everything that can be done in a basketball court, manage not to win so many playoff games.

Watching Embiid, I think I better understand it now.

And to be clear---I like Embiid MORE than I did a year ago. He has been a warrior this season, playing through injury and spectacularly last game. He has nothing physically this playoffs and he's gutting it out. But his overall track record also is what it is.

I don't have malice towards him---his social media presence was witty and awesome, and he seems like a thoughful and passionate guy. But the on-court version lets you down so so often....
 

Auger34

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I have wondered what it was like to watch Wilt Chamberlain, capable of everything that can be done in a basketball court, manage not to win so many playoff games.

Watching Embiid, I think I better understand it now.

And to be clear---I like Embiid MORE than I did a year ago. He has been a warrior this season, playing through injury and spectacularly last game. He has nothing physically this playoffs and he's gutting it out. But his overall track record also is what it is.

I don't have malice towards him---his social media presence was witty and awesome, and he seems like a thoughful and passionate guy. But the on-court version lets you down so so often....
His postgame conference today really added to my opinion of him. Calling out the fans after that game is really something
 

Euclis20

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I have wondered what it was like to watch Wilt Chamberlain, capable of everything that can be done in a basketball court, manage not to win so many playoff games.

Watching Embiid, I think I better understand it now.

And to be clear---I like Embiid MORE than I did a year ago. He has been a warrior this season, playing through injury and spectacularly last game. He has nothing physically this playoffs and he's gutting it out. But his overall track record also is what it is.

I don't have malice towards him---his social media presence was witty and awesome, and he seems like a thoughful and passionate guy. But the on-court version lets you down so so often....
I never watched the games, but I've been under the impression that Wilt's problem was Russell and the Celtics, not the playoffs in general. 1-7 vs Boston in the playoffs, 17-4 vs everyone else. Embiid certainly loses more than his fair share to Boston, but his playoff issues extend far beyond getting destroyed by Tatum and Horford over and over.
 

TomRicardo

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The team right now is Maxey, Embiid, and a bunch or role players. Adding Paul George would make them a top 3 team in the east and so long as health they wouldn’t sniff the play in
Health was I getting at. I don't think PG or Embiid realistically have more than 50 games a piece anymore in the regular season.
 

lovegtm

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We're seeing a thing more broadly in these playoffs: elite on-ball guys who can't affect the game in other ways, particularly on offense, tend to wear down, and can't provide as much value as you'd want once they've worn down.

Dribbling and fighting for post position are tiring. This sort of shows up in the regular season, but it becomes more of a thing in the playoffs. It's tough, because you love that elite iso offense, and it's great to have at the end of games. However, if you're depending on it the whole game, other teams can grind it out of you.
 

lars10

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I don't know, PG 13 seems like he's out of Clipper land if they lose (and even if not). My strategy would be simple:
-sign George
-rest Embiid a lot during the season.

Roll your dice with that. With a healthy Embiid and the addition of PG13 this is a scary team. Not sure the former is possible any more, but certainly with plenty of rest days and playing between 25-30 minutes per game during the regular season there's a shot.
Feel like there has to be a risk of not playing him enough to keep up his conditioning... has to be a balance between trying to keep him healthy while also keeping him in shape.
 

jon abbey

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NY is down to 7 guys with Bogdanovic and Robinson out. Hart and Achiuwa combined for:

66 minutes
0-12 from the field
24 boards
7 assists
7 blocks
 

lovegtm

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NY is down to 7 guys with Bogdanovic and Robinson out. Hart and Achiuwa combined for:

66 minutes
0-12 from the field
24 boards
7 assists
7 blocks
Achiuwa was great when Hartenstein got into foul trouble, no scoring aside.

Also, wrt the bolded, Thibs just got very, very hard.
 

BigSoxFan

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His postgame conference today really added to my opinion of him. Calling out the fans after that game is really something
I was fine with it, honestly. There were an embarrassing amount of Knicks fans at the game today. They took over the arena and I’d be livid if Celtics fans let the same thing happen in a few weeks in a matchup that feels destined to happen.

Leads me to believe that Philly fans clearly don’t believe in this team.
 

bigq

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I was fine with it, honestly. There were an embarrassing amount of Knicks fans at the game today. They took over the arena and I’d be livid if Celtics fans let the same thing happen in a few weeks in a matchup that feels destined to happen.
Wouldn’t happen because Boston is a sports town not some sad sack lame bullshit brotherly love cracked Liberty Bell shell of a suburb of Trenton. And fuck Embiid and his whiny salty tears crying about the fans. Put up some points in the 4th and win the game. Then you won’t even notice the blue meanies from NY.

Rant over. Man, I love the NBA playoffs.
 

slamminsammya

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this is nuts if it’s true.

i think suggesting they look to deal him is wildly premature though. i think they could win a finals with the core they have. it’s a rare thing to win a championship, i think this board sometimes takes glee in labeling guys as “losers”. harden was a chris paul injury away from knocking off maybe the best team ever. embiid took the celtics to 7 games in a series where boston was widely considered to be the better team.

it’s fun to do the armchair psychologizing but heaps of championship players had “loser” narratives until they won one. if you say a great player will never win you’re likely to be right, because only one team gets to win each year.
 

Murderer's Crow

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Teams that can pressure the perimeter with their center while rotating perfectly behind that are tough for the Cs' offense. NYK would be a bigger challenge than people think:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AnSYYho4z1g
I think the Knicks and Celtics are getting adequate respect. I haven’t heard many people discount the Knicks ability to ball. There’s no smoke show with their talent. If anything, the biggest question has just been the sample size of them being healthy together for a long stretch. The Celtics are the Celtics. There is no team in the East that should give them more than a couple games of trouble in a series and I don’t expect the Knicks to pull a rabbit out of a hat. Would be fun to see them matchup but I still don’t think this series is over.
 

chilidawg

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this is nuts if it’s true.

i think suggesting they look to deal him is wildly premature though. i think they could win a finals with the core they have. it’s a rare thing to win a championship, i think this board sometimes takes glee in labeling guys as “losers”. harden was a chris paul injury away from knocking off maybe the best team ever. embiid took the celtics to 7 games in a series where boston was widely considered to be the better team.

it’s fun to do the armchair psychologizing but heaps of championship players had “loser” narratives until they won one. if you say a great player will never win you’re likely to be right, because only one team gets to win each year.
Great post.
 

m0ckduck

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this is nuts if it’s true.

i think suggesting they look to deal him is wildly premature though. i think they could win a finals with the core they have. it’s a rare thing to win a championship, i think this board sometimes takes glee in labeling guys as “losers”. harden was a chris paul injury away from knocking off maybe the best team ever. embiid took the celtics to 7 games in a series where boston was widely considered to be the better team.

it’s fun to do the armchair psychologizing but heaps of championship players had “loser” narratives until they won one. if you say a great player will never win you’re likely to be right, because only one team gets to win each year.
They won't trade him, b/c at the end of the day, it's much better to have have a top-5 talent in the NBA than not, and by definition there are only 5 of those. It's better to have/sell hope of winning a title, and as long as they have Embiid, there's hope.

As far as their chances of winning a title, it has to start with constructing a roster where the pieces can mesh with Embiid but can also produce some offense while he's sitting. The odds of him being able to carry a team 44-min a game Brunson-style has to be filed under "ship has sailed" territory with his history and age. The real problem is that Maxey isn't quite good enough for what they need him to be— he's great with Embiid but the offense mostly stagnates when he's the primary option. So, do you try to add a big third banana (Paul George), improve around the margins, or try to upgrade the Maxey "second option" spot? Far-fetched, but: I would be interested in trying to deal Maxey and draft capital for Devin Booker, if Phoenix concludes they're stuck in a dead end.

Edit: regarding the "loser" topic: he's not a loser obviously. But I do think it's fair to say that in addition to the question marks around his health and conditioning, this postseason has raised (or re-raised) legitimate questions about his composure and leadership. From the flagrant fouls to the weird behavior at the end of last game... it's another reason to doubt whether he can shoulder the huge load that winning a title would require with the current roster.

Edit2: oof, I forgot what a salary difference there is between Maxey and Booker. But, dealing Maxey for a better, older, more expensive player makes sense to me in principle given where Embiid is in his career.
 
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ManicCompression

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this is nuts if it’s true.

i think suggesting they look to deal him is wildly premature though. i think they could win a finals with the core they have. it’s a rare thing to win a championship, i think this board sometimes takes glee in labeling guys as “losers”. harden was a chris paul injury away from knocking off maybe the best team ever. embiid took the celtics to 7 games in a series where boston was widely considered to be the better team.

it’s fun to do the armchair psychologizing but heaps of championship players had “loser” narratives until they won one. if you say a great player will never win you’re likely to be right, because only one team gets to win each year.
But isn't the whole point that Championships are decided on these narrow margins, and that's what differentiates the greats from the truly GREATS? People aren't saying Embiid is a loser in comparison to Lamelo Ball, they're saying he's a loser in comparison to Nikola Jokic, which, BTW, is a comparison he continually invites with his MVP baiting schtick.

There's a big difference between a young player having a few playoffs in which he's coming up short (and thus needs to get over the hump) and a 30+ year old player with a pattern of poor performances in key games, playoff meltdowns, and bad conditioning. Of course only one team wins each year, but the winners by default don't have those issues - that's why they won - and it's fair to question wonder why certain guys who dominate in the regular season all of a sudden fall short in those categories year after year in the playoffs, particularly when those players so dearly want to be thought of as premier players in the league.
 

PedroKsBambino

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They won't trade him, b/c at the end of the day, it's much better to have have a top-5 talent in the NBA than not, and by definition there are only 5 of those. It's better to have/sell hope of winning a title, and as long as they have Embiid, there's hope.

As far as their chances of winning a title, it has to start with constructing a roster where the pieces can mesh with Embiid but can also produce some offense while he's sitting. The odds of him being able to carry a team 44-min a game Brunson-style has to be filed under "ship has sailed" territory with his history and age. The real problem is that Maxey isn't quite good enough for what they need him to be— he's great with Embiid but the offense mostly stagnates when he's the primary option. So, do you try to add a big third banana (Paul George), improve around the margins, or try to upgrade the Maxey "second option" spot? Far-fetched, but: I would be interested in trying to deal Maxey and draft capital for Devin Booker, if Phoenix concludes they're stuck in a dead end.

Edit: regarding the "loser" topic: he's not a loser obviously. But I do think it's fair to say that in addition to the question marks around his health and conditioning, this postseason has raised (or re-raised) legitimate questions about his composure and leadership. From the flagrant fouls to the weird behavior at the end of last game... it's another reason to doubt whether he can shoulder the huge load that winning a title would require with the current roster.

Edit2: oof, I forgot what a salary difference there is between Maxey and Booker. But, dealing Maxey for a better, older, more expensive player makes sense to me in principle given where Embiid is in his career.
Well said. Embiid is great, and we're into assessing the edge that separates great players in the toughest of situations. In that specific context, Embiid has some strikes against him to date - conditioning early in his career; flagrants and temper/mood; reality he hasn't performed as well in playoffs. And, he's an MVP level guy who has managed through an incredible amount of transition in Philly while building his game in a really spectacular way.

These things get turned by soundbite-media into binary 'winner vs loser' dynamics and above is to me a better way to think about it - Embiid has done some amazing things, and there are still some hurdles left. That is true of all but a small handful of guys in the league, and he may or may not even get a 'fair' shot to prove them. But the record as it sits today has some imperfections, all against being an all-world guy.

What you really hope is that he's healty to have a clean shot at proving it all next year...he's so good this year, but the injury stuff just keeps coming up and he's 30 and 7-3 and big and you just worry that physically it's a lot more likely to get tougher going forward.
 

TomRicardo

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this is nuts if it’s true.

i think suggesting they look to deal him is wildly premature though. i think they could win a finals with the core they have. it’s a rare thing to win a championship, i think this board sometimes takes glee in labeling guys as “losers”. harden was a chris paul injury away from knocking off maybe the best team ever. embiid took the celtics to 7 games in a series where boston was widely considered to be the better team.

it’s fun to do the armchair psychologizing but heaps of championship players had “loser” narratives until they won one. if you say a great player will never win you’re likely to be right, because only one team gets to win each year.
I don't think there is a world where Maxey and Embiid are enough to get you over the hill. Outside of adding LeBron I don't think there is a free agent that gets them over that hill. Paul George played 74 games this year after averaging less than 50 over the last four years, even if you got really lucky with health they would be on the outside of the top five teams in the NBA (remember to sign Paul George they have to renounce a ton of cap holds not just Tobias Harris.)

76ers with Paul George:

Embiid
Paul George
Maxey
Batum / Melton (you can only keep one)
Paul Reed
Tax Payer Exemption
Jeff Dowtin
Lowry
Kenyon Martin Jr.
First Round Pick
2nd Round Pick
2nd Round Pick
Min
Min
MIn

And there is going to be an awkward dance staying under 178 to get a TPE
 

Murderer's Crow

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Funny you bring up LeBron because all the radios keep talking about that. Short of Bronny getting drafted by Philly, am I missing a big reason why he would even entertain leaving LA?
 

HomeRunBaker

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Funny you bring up LeBron because all the radios keep talking about that. Short of Bronny getting drafted by Philly, am I missing a big reason why he would even entertain leaving LA?
We don't know how he wants to end his career....staying in LA, going somewhere random with Bronny but no hopes of a Title, or identifying the best opportunity for him to bring a trophy to a 4th city. I suspect based on his past actions that it is the latter first and foremost which places the Sixers right at the top of the list with maybe a Golden State and as much as people will scoff at it, should the Celtics not come away with a title this year I'd be surprised if we weren't in the conversation as well.
 

Murderer's Crow

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We don't know how he wants to end his career....staying in LA, going somewhere random with Bronny but no hopes of a Title, or identifying the best opportunity for him to bring a trophy to a 4th city. I suspect based on his past actions that it is the latter first and foremost which places the Sixers right at the top of the list with maybe a Golden State and as much as people will scoff at it, should the Celtics not come away with a title this year I'd be surprised if we weren't in the conversation as well.
You could be right but if he has a chance to play with Bronny, I think that takes priority over playing on another team with a chance. He has said it a bunch of times that he wants to play with him if he can.
 

HomeRunBaker

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You could be right but if he has a chance to play with Bronny, I think that takes priority over playing on another team with a chance. He has said it a bunch of times that he wants to play with him if he can.
He has since backed off this a bit and saying how what he wants may not be what Bronny wants. Personally I think Bronnys 3-and-D skillset is better suited for the NBA than for college. This past year when he spent the entire preseason dealing with his heart issues then jumping out on the floor as a freshman didn’t do his ability justice.
 

Euclis20

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Loath as I am to say a kind word about Embiid, this is a crazy stat: Embiid's net on/off number in this series is +70.1. Philly is -38 in the 32 minutes that Embiid has sat in this series. Even as Embiid is in the process of underperforming in the playoffs, Philly is doing what they did all year: Play like a lottery team without Embiid.
 

Murderer's Crow

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He's playing. If Embiid misses as elimination game with a migraine he will never let that go. It's better for him to play and have zero points
 

m0ckduck

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Loath as I am to say a kind word about Embiid, this is a crazy stat: Embiid's net on/off number in this series is +70.1. Philly is -38 in the 32 minutes that Embiid has sat in this series. Even as Embiid is in the process of underperforming in the playoffs, Philly is doing what they did all year: Play like a lottery team without Embiid.
That's the crazy thing about Embiid: right now, the narrative that's cued up for him around this series is "huge disappointment." And yet, he had a 50 point game! I can't thing of another player we'd be having this kind of discussion about.
 

jon abbey

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That's the crazy thing about Embiid: right now, the narrative that's cued up for him around this series is "huge disappointment." And yet, he had a 50 point game! I can't thing of another player we'd be having this kind of discussion about.
In 2017, Russell Westbrook won the MVP for OKC and averaged 37 points in the first round, including a 51. OKC lost 4 games to 1 to HOU.
 

snowmanny

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That's the crazy thing about Embiid: right now, the narrative that's cued up for him around this series is "huge disappointment." And yet, he had a 50 point game! I can't thing of another player we'd be having this kind of discussion about.
The Embiid narrative has been many years in the making. But also, these narratives are everywhere: Tatum scored 50 in a game 7 last year and almost immediately got crap for not being able to rise to the moment in the next round.
 

Cellar-Door

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That's the crazy thing about Embiid: right now, the narrative that's cued up for him around this series is "huge disappointment." And yet, he had a 50 point game! I can't thing of another player we'd be having this kind of discussion about.
That's how many stars are viewed... people talk about Tatum as a playoff disappointment despite being the best player on teams who have gone much further, and he's had great individual performances... look at Embiid's former teammate Harden... He was the whole offense for those Rockets teams, he had to put up 40+ every playoff game for them to win, but because they always eventually lost to better, more balanced rosters his rep is playoff choker....

That's how the NBA is, if you're a superstar you have to win a ring and until you do any playoff exit no matter how late is a chokejob/disappointment
 

JCizzle

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That's how many stars are viewed... people talk about Tatum as a playoff disappointment despite being the best player on teams who have gone much further, and he's had great individual performances... look at Embiid's former teammate Harden... He was the whole offense for those Rockets teams, he had to put up 40+ every playoff game for them to win, but because they always eventually lost to better, more balanced rosters his rep is playoff choker....

That's how the NBA is, if you're a superstar you have to win a ring and until you do any playoff exit no matter how late is a chokejob/disappointment
Honestly, I feel like Embiid escaped the type of criticism you cited far longer than most players of his stature.
 

Cellar-Door

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Honestly, I feel like Embiid escaped the type of criticism you cited far longer than most players of his stature.
because he always had the "he was hurt" to fall back on..... also he threw every teammate/coach he ever had under the bus.

Now people are just at the stage where it's no excuses left.
 

m0ckduck

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The Embiid narrative has been many years in the making. But also, these narratives are everywhere: Tatum scored 50 in a game 7 last year and almost immediately got crap for not being able to rise to the moment in the next round.
That's how many stars are viewed... people talk about Tatum as a playoff disappointment despite being the best player on teams who have gone much further, and he's had great individual performances... look at Embiid's former teammate Harden... He was the whole offense for those Rockets teams, he had to put up 40+ every playoff game for them to win, but because they always eventually lost to better, more balanced rosters his rep is playoff choker....

That's how the NBA is, if you're a superstar you have to win a ring and until you do any playoff exit no matter how late is a chokejob/disappointment
True, but you're both pointing to the fickle nature of public perception. I'm saying that, public perception aside, it's reasonable for even the most astute NBA observer to find Embiid disappointing in this series— and yet it's included a 50 point game. My overarching point is about talent and how much Embiid has: not many NBA players have been capable of putting up a 50-spot in the playoffs while simultaneously — and justifiably— disappointing expectation.
 

Murderer's Crow

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I think talking about the 50 point game is missing the mark. Arod had a pretty good game 1-3 of the 04 ALCS too. If you want to be free from criticism, you need to show up every game and have a level of consistency. Embiid has high highs and low lows. When those lows happen matters a lot
 

slamminsammya

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I think talking about the 50 point game is missing the mark. Arod had a pretty good game 1-3 of the 04 ALCS too. If you want to be free from criticism, you need to show up every game and have a level of consistency. Embiid has high highs and low lows. When those lows happen matters a lot
i don’t think this is totally true. winning the series covers up bad games. butler sucked last year games 4-7 and no one cared cuz the heat won.
 

lovegtm

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I enjoy shitting on Embiid as much as the next guy, but he's the only reason the Sixers are in thus. The rest of the roster sucks, and Maxey just isn't capable of keeping bench units afloat.

The real casualty here is the "the Sixers were 31-8 with Embiid healthy!! Their roster is good actually!!" narrative. It's just not nearly good enough.

Maybe renouncing everybody to sign a star fixes that, but I'm skeptical.
 

tims4wins

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I enjoy shitting on Embiid as much as the next guy, but he's the only reason the Sixers are in thus. The rest of the roster sucks, and Maxey just isn't capable of keeping bench units afloat.

The real casualty here is the "the Sixers were 31-8 with Embiid healthy!! Their roster is good actually!!" narrative. It's just not nearly good enough.

Maybe renouncing everybody to sign a star fixes that, but I'm skeptical.
31-8 was built on a weak schedule
 

Cellar-Door

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True, but you're both pointing to the fickle nature of public perception. I'm saying that, public perception aside, it's reasonable for even the most astute NBA observer to find Embiid disappointing in this series— and yet it's included a 50 point game. My overarching point is about talent and how much Embiid has: not many NBA players have been capable of putting up a 50-spot in the playoffs while simultaneously — and justifiably— disappointing expectation.
Ah....
yeah I don't think that's particularly true either though. Playoff series are loaded with guys having one huge game then disappointing the rest. Just from Celtics games, I think KD and Kyrie both had at least 1 big game in that Nets Series, Harden had TWO 40+ last year, Butler had a 47 point game in 2022 against us,
Other ones that come to mind... Booker had like 45 or 50 in a game in last year's beat down by DEN, 2021 Luka had multiple big games in a losing effort, Mitchell had close to 50 against LAC, in a series tat basically got the team rebooted it was so disappointing.
 

InstaFace

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Michael Jordan put up 63 in the playoffs against the 1986 Celtics. On 4/20.

His team lost the game in double overtime, and got swept 3-0 in the series.
 

jarules1185

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That's the crazy thing about Embiid: right now, the narrative that's cued up for him around this series is "huge disappointment." And yet, he had a 50 point game! I can't thing of another player we'd be having this kind of discussion about.
I recall there being quite a bit of celebratory content about Embiid's 50 point game. The same game he potentially should have been ejected from in the 2nd quarter, depending on how you feel about star treatment.

They've lost the other 3 games though, and he's been more "acceptable" than great in any of them. He's averaged under 39% shooting in those 3 losses. If you lose more times than you win, and you play just "ok" in losses, you lose the series and it's hard to argue you had a good one.

Not sure how unfair / unbalanced that is. What would be really unfair would be Mitch Robinson yanking on his leg and re-injuring his knee, knocking him out of multiple games.
 

lovegtm

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I recall there being quite a bit of celebratory content about Embiid's 50 point game. The same game he potentially should have been ejected from in the 2nd quarter, depending on how you feel about star treatment being right or wrong.

They've lost the other 3 games though, and he's been more "acceptable" than great in any of them. He's averaged under 39% shooting in those 3 losses. If you lose more times than you win, and you play just "ok" in losses, you lose the series and it's hard to argue you had a good one.

Not sure how unfair / unbalanced that is. What would be really unfair would be Mitch Robinson yanking on his leg and re-injuring his knee, knocking him out of multiple games.
Embiid's on-off has been great, and part of his diminished performance late in games is due to the fact that Nurse simply can't sub him out, so he gets exhausted.

I too think the Robinson play was dirty af, but it's a separate topic from Embiid's overall performance, and I think people prefer to discuss those things separately.
 

jarules1185

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Jul 14, 2005
623
I too think the Robinson play was dirty af, but it's a separate topic from Embiid's overall performance, and I think people prefer to discuss those things separately.
That's fine. I think they are at least tangentially connected because if you injure the opposing center, you have one less person to compete with rebounds for and fresh body who can defend & soak up fouls against you, which was a huge factor in Games 3 and 4.

Obviously he's talented enough that he can dominate regardless, certainly not debating that. All in all, he's been not quite good enough in 3 of the games this series.
 
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