3/30 - The Road Trip: Game 3

[LogansDad]

For the record, I spent the second half of the 2021 season holding the net next to the first base dugout up so that Julio Rodriguez could sign autographs for kids, and I got to know him a little bit back then. He would actively avoid signing for adults to make sure that kids would get his auto in the limited time he had (he wasn't actually supposed to be signing that year so someone was always on their way to make it stop), but would always spend as much time as he possibly could with them. The only people I have met on a baseball field who MIGHT be nicer are Bobby Witt Jr and Masyn Wiin. His mom let me hold his Olympic medal, for crying out loud, and I have a ball that he signed for me sitting on the shelf behind me when I watch baseball games on the PC.

I fucking adore that kid.

So being this pissed off, even the morning after, because of him getting a walk off hit, makes me fucking triple angry.

 

[Ferm Sheller]

Glad I was sleeping for these. This one doesn't bother me that much because of that gimmick runner thing.

If they're gonna have that thing, at least give the team a point for the tie like Hockey.

The gimmick runner was a drop in the bucket of their problems.

 

[simplicio]

I would argue that the real killer is carrying exactly ONE (1) LHP on the entire roster and its this Joely character when we have Bernadino in Worcester for some goddamn reason

We have two, Campbell's just being sneaky about it:

Like I said, it's a semi-justifable paint-by-numbers approach that again fails. Instead, he could have gotten another batter out of Crawford. He could have used Campbell for more than 3 batters. He could have used Slaten earlier. He could have used Rodriguez earlier.

He could have told Kenley to suck it up too, but you have to get your guys through the season or you'll be replacing them with worse guys down the stretch. Crawford was very clearly tiring his last couple batters.

 

[Archer1979]

Obviously Abreu's error hurt as it gave an extra base. But letting the tying run score on a pulled in infield hurt. Not holding the runner at third a little closer and getting the second out at the plate was a killer.

Those two plays were the difference.

 

[HfxBob]

Martin, the better pitcher, pitched with no margin of error. The less good pitchers had one in the 10th. I dont save him for the save. I think thats the right way to go. (Though I could see flipping him and Weissert for that reason).

I've never been a fan of intentionally loading the bases. It makes pitchers pitch differently. I could see making an exception here, given the hitter. But its not that cut and dried to me.

Yes, this is the argument for not issuing the IBB.

 

[Max Power]

Polanco actually has a better career OBP than J-Rod against righties. Letting a kid throw his first major league pitches with a little margin for error against a guy with a career .333 OBP vs righties is defensible when the other option is no room for error against a guy with a career .348.

But in either case, the game was already tied and likely lost at that point. The bloop and E9 were the killers.

 

[Tony Pena's Gas Cloud]

Martin, the better pitcher, pitched with no margin of error. The less good pitchers had one in the 10th. I dont save him for the save. I think thats the right way to go. (Though I could see flipping him and Weissert for that reason).

I've never been a fan of intentionally loading the bases. It makes pitchers pitch differently. I could see making an exception here, given the hitter. But its not that cut and dried to me.

You're leaving out two important factors.
A) Campbell rolled through the 7th on 14 pitches
B) The 8-9 hitters were due up in the 8th
"Margin of error" be damned. With Jansen and Wink unavailable, every reliever is likely going to have to stretch a bit. Every out is important. Therefore you save your de facto closer, Martin, for the best hitters. Using him for the 8-9 hitters in the 8th inning of a tie game on the road was an egregious misuse of the limited resources. You use him in that inning if and only if Campbell gets in trouble.

 

[Max Power]

You're leaving out two important factors.
A) Campbell rolled through the 7th on 14 pitches
B) The 8-9 hitters were due up in the 8th
"Margin of error" be damned. With Jansen and Wink unavailable, every reliever is likely going to have to stretch a bit. Every out is important. Therefore you save your de facto closer, Martin, for the best hitters. Using him for the 8-9 hitters in the 8th inning of a tie game on the road was an egregious misuse of the limited resources. You use him in that inning if and only if Campbell gets in trouble.

The team controls Campbell for another 4 years. He was pitching on one day rest. Telling him he's going to pitch a second inning when he almost never does it in the 3rd game of the season in a stretch of 10 games in 11 days would be malpractice.

 

[HfxBob]

You're leaving out two important factors.
A) Campbell rolled through the 7th on 14 pitches
B) The 8-9 hitters were due up in the 8th
"Margin of error" be damned. With Jansen and Wink unavailable, every reliever is likely going to have to stretch a bit. Every out is important. Therefore you save your de facto closer, Martin, for the best hitters. Using him for the 8-9 hitters in the 8th inning of a tie game on the road was an egregious misuse of the limited resources. You use him in that inning if and only if Campbell gets in trouble.

And the #9 hitter got a hit off Martin, bringing up Crawford and then Rodriguez. Not nearly as simple as you're making it sound.

 

[Tony Pena's Gas Cloud]

And the #9 hitter got a hit off Martin, bringing up Crawford and then Rodriguez. Not nearly as simple as you're making it sound.

Re-read the last line of my comment.

 

[Tony Pena's Gas Cloud]

The team controls Campbell for another 4 years. He was pitching on one day rest. Telling him he's going to pitch a second inning when he almost never does it in the 3rd game of the season in a stretch of 10 games in 11 days would be malpractice.

14 rocking chair pitches in his first inning. There's absolutely no reason he can't face the bottom of the order guys.

 

[Max Power]

14 rocking chair pitches in his first inning. There's absolutely no reason he can't face the bottom of the order guys.

I gave you several reasons. That you choose to disregard them doesn't mean they don't exist.

 

[Ale Xander]

Such a horrid loss

DFA Joely sick of him

bad CS could had a 4th or 5th run

need a stronger arm at 2B

 

[Ale Xander]

Saving him for the playoffs.

You think he’ll make it to the ‘26 playoffs?

 

[Helen of Troy O’Leary]

Manage to win the fucking game. If Jansen is unavailable, you adjust accordingly. Martin becomes your de facto closer, and instead of burning him in a tie game on the road in the 8th inning against the bottom of the order, you let Campbell pitch another inning after mowing down the side on 14 pitches in the 7th.
You also don't fucking bunt for one run in the 10th inning on the road if your closer isn't available.
You also, with a string of lefties due up, put your former GG-winning outfielder in right for defense rather than a rookie.
You also, with the winning run on third, walk their best hitter and hope for a force out or double play. The adage "Never let their best player beat you" has existed for decades for a reason.
I want him to do his fucking job, which is to put his players in the best position to succeed and win. He failed in every regard tonight. Fuck him.

Very hard to argue with any of this. How fans can cogently lay out an ideal strategy and it not occur to a Major League manager is baffling to me. Cora almost couldn’t have helped them lose any more.

 

[HfxBob]

Very hard to argue with any of this. How fans can cogently lay out an ideal strategy and it not occur to a Major League manager is baffling to me. Cora almost couldn’t have helped them lose any more.

Yeah right. Ideal strategies are easy to posit after the fact. Not everyone thinks the ideal strategy was to push Campbell to a second inning in the third game of the season.

 

[simplicio]

Very hard to argue with any of this. How fans can cogently lay out an ideal strategy and it not occur to a Major League manager is baffling to me. Cora almost couldn’t have helped them lose any more.

Someone call Breslow! There's a sure path to 100 wins and all he has to do is replace the entire dugout with the most vocal complainers on SOSH!

 

[Helen of Troy O’Leary]

Yeah right. Ideal strategies are easy to posit after the fact. Not everyone thinks the ideal strategy was to push Campbell to a second inning in the third game of the season.

I think the entire point is that Cora knew he was dealing without his closer and did nothing to adjust before the fact: e.g. let your cruising relievers go an extra batter or two. He’s dogmatic to a fault.

 

[zenax]

All this screaming about Cora after last night's game...what about the Red Sox batters who are not producing? They are 4 for 22 with runners in scoring position.

 

[Harry Hooper]

As someone who was not a fan of Cora returning to manage after his "year of contemplation," I still find it hard to grasp this level of vitriol going his way here.


Already mentioned above, sending Campbell back out in Game 3 of 162 in this skein of games without off-days is no slam-dunk decision. Martin is "Mr. 8th Inning" normally on this team, and with the Sox having their 3-4-5 hitters batting in the 9th, Cora might have been contemplating a rare 2 IP stint for Martin if a lead grabbed.

Cora is firmly on record that in "Manfred Man" scenarios, the visiting team has to go all out to score at least 2 runs, not just 1 run. I do not believe he ordered that bunt by Valdez.

O'Neill is working through a calf strain. I can easily imagine Cora hoped not to play him at all last night. Plus, the scouting report for Abreu has him as an average CF and above-average RF with this note:

By the way, Abreu has a hose for an arm, one that grades at 70 in the 20-80 scouting scale. That should be of big benefit in Fenway’s spacious right field. “He’s a good player who has a chance to be the starting right fielder of the Red Sox,” said Red Sox manager Alex Cora. “He controls the strike zone. He plays good defense. He has a cannon.

IBB to load the bases? Again, not a slam-dunk decision given you have a pitcher making his MLB debut. Let the kid use his full arsenal against a hitter who may never have faced him before vs. enabling the force at any base. It's pretty much a coin flip.


As someone who did not want Joely on the roster, I think my biggest criticism of Cora's work last night would be pulling Joely for the Rule 5 tyro in that uber-high-leverage situation. Let Joely issue the IBB and then have him go after Polanco. Perhaps Cora yanked Joely to send a message to the braintrust to get him gone? We don't know.

 

[AB in DC]

I'm baffled by the Cora hate here. This loss was due to (1) defense, (2) injuries, (3) Joely. I'd probably pick a couple of other reasons before I get to Cora.

I'm even a bit hesitant to blame Joely -- if Abreu handles the ball cleanly then the grounder to Valdez is an easy double play ball.

Basically every run allowed (except the ghost runner) was 100% avoidable.

 

[Rovin Romine]

Thanks for proving there's no point trying to engage with you. Unbelievable.

You're the only one who gets to grossly mis-state someone's position? Is that how it works?

 

[Tony Pena's Gas Cloud]

All this screaming about Cora after last night's game...what about the Red Sox batters who are not producing? They are 4 for 22 with runners in scoring position.

They're on the west coast facing perhaps the best pitching staff in the league and without Devers the last two games. I'm not sure how many other teams would have a different result.

 

[DeadlySplitter]

On the surface that's true, but they've nearly matched the pitching blow for blow. It's really the injuries leading to bad D last night too, as we know this team is thin on the bench. And a good old sprinkle of BABIP (besides the 10th, Yoshida could have driven in a run earlier in the game).

It sucks Abreu has gotten off to such a slow start, that error felt like he was pressing.

 

[Diamond Don Aase]

14 rocking chair pitches in his first inning. There's absolutely no reason he can't face the bottom of the order guys.

Campbell has never recorded six outs in a major-league game. Not once. He has recorded more than three outs only seven times and just twice with fewer than two days rest. In one of the latter two appearances, August 22 of last season, Campbell allowed four baserunners against the White Sox.

I would very much prefer the Red Sox to have more multi-inning relievers and fewer single-inning relievers. Unfortunately, wishing does not make it so. Outside of the unavailable Winckowski, the better candidates to fill such a role are either in the rotation (Houck, Whitlock), perpetually injured (Bryan Mata), traded for a single season of Flex Mentallo (Nick Robertson), or lost in the Rule 5 Draft (Ryan Fernandez) because the front office somehow construed the continued presence of Joe Jacques and Zack Kelly to represent a roster crunch.

There was ample opportunity this off-season to mitigate the impact of these gaps but those opportunities went repeatedly unrealized. Last night was less about tactical deficiencies and more about the finding out portion of FSG’s real estate ventures.

 

[Tony Pena's Gas Cloud]

As someone who was not a fan of Cora returning to manage after his "year of contemplation," I still find it hard to grasp this level of vitriol going his way here.


Already mentioned above, sending Campbell back out in Game 3 of 162 in this skein of games without off-days is no slam-dunk decision. Martin is "Mr. 8th Inning" normally on this team, and with the Sox having their 3-4-5 hitters batting in the 9th, Cora might have been contemplating a rare 2 IP stint for Martin if a lead grabbed.

Cora is firmly on record that in "Manfred Man" scenarios, the visiting team has to go all out to score at least 2 runs, not just 1 run. I do not believe he ordered that bunt by Valdez.

O'Neill is working through a calf strain. I can easily imagine Cora hoped not to play him at all last night. Plus, the scouting report for Abreu has him as an average CF and above-average RF with this note:



IBB to load the bases? Again, not a slam-dunk decision given you have a pitcher making his MLB debut. Let the kid use his full arsenal against a hitter who may never have faced him before vs. enabling the force at any base. It's pretty much a coin flip.


As someone who did not want Joely on the roster, I think my biggest criticism of Cora's work last night would be pulling Joely for the Rule 5 tyro in that uber-high-leverage situation. Let Joely issue the IBB and then have him go after Polanco. Perhaps Cora yanked Joely to send a message to the braintrust to get him gone? We don't know.

Martin may be "Mr. 8th inning", but when the 7th and 9th inning guys are unavailable, there needs to be flexibility. You save him for the best opppsong hitters. Wasting him on the 8-9 hitters in a tie game in the 8th inning on the road is an egregious misuse of resources.

 

[AB in DC]

On not walking JRod:

JRod career BA: .279
Polanco's career OBP: .334

Odds favor pitching to JRod rather than loading the bases for Polanco.

 

[HfxBob]

On not walking JRod:

JRod career BA: .279
Polanco's career OBP: .334

Odds favor pitching to JRod rather than loading the bases for Polanco.

Yet another point in favor of Cora's decision process. Some just can't be bothered taking the time to consider such things. Might muddy the waters for them.

 

[Harry Hooper]

Campbell has never recorded six outs in a major-league game. Not once. He has recorded more than three outs only seven times and just twice with fewer than two days rest. In one of the latter two appearances, August 22 of last season, Campbell allowed four baserunners against the White Sox.

I would very much prefer the Red Sox to have more multi-inning relievers and fewer single-inning relievers. Unfortunately, wishing does not make it so. Outside of the unavailable Winckowski, the better candidates to fill such a role are either in the rotation (Houck, Whitlock), perpetually injured (Bryan Mata), traded for a single season of Flex Mentallo (Nick Robertson), or lost in the Rule 5 Draft (Ryan Fernandez) because the front office somehow construed the continued presence of Joe Jacques and Zack Kelly to represent a roster crunch.

There was ample opportunity this off-season to mitigate the impact of these gaps but those opportunities went repeatedly unrealized. Last night was less about tactical deficiencies and more about the finding out portion of FSG’s real estate ventures.

Yes, the braintrust elected to have the multi-inning relievers migrate into marginal 4th and 5th starters on this year's team, leaving Cora with a lack of relief options in Game 3 despite a 13-pitcher complement.





MassLive's Smith had this from Slaten after the game [boldface added]:

What was his approach against Rodriguez?

“He’s a great player,” Slaten said. “In that situation, I knew we had a base open. We were just immediately going to come in and just try to go to my best stuff. Just try to either force some swings and misses or force some weak contact and try to get a ground ball. That’s what I tried to do. Unfortunately I left that last pitch a little bit too far in the zone for him to get a handle on. He made a good swing, put it out there, obviously won the game for his team. It’s a situation that you dream about obviously.”

Even though things didn’t go as he had hoped, he still made his major league debut.

“It awesome,” Slaten said. “It was one of those things where obviously I wish the (outcome) was a little bit different. But it doesn’t take away from the fact that I was still going out there and it meant the world to me to have my family and friends and the people I care about the most here.”

 

[Al Zarilla]

I would argue that the real killer is carrying exactly ONE (1) LHP on the entire roster and its this Joely character when we have Bernadino in Worcester for some goddamn reason

I thought maybe the reason Joely made the big club instead of Bernardino was because Joely is younger. He does look younger, but they’re both 32. Joely has had not much of a career and Bernardino was good last year. So, they kept Joely. Don’t understand that one. Probably have a 2-1 record if they’d gone the way I’d have preferred. I wonder what Cora told Bernardino about why they were sending him down.

 

[joe dokes]

Martin may be "Mr. 8th inning", but when the 7th and 9th inning guys are unavailable, there needs to be flexibility. You save him for the best opppsong hitters. Wasting him on the 8-9 hitters in a tie game in the 8th inning on the road is an egregious misuse of resources.

Saving your best pitcher in a close game for an innong that might not be played also has risks that your ironclad certainty is not taking into account.

 

[E5 Yaz]

Saving your best pitcher in a close game for an innong that might not be played also has risks that your ironclad certainty is not taking into account.

coughcoughshhhhcoughcoughrollcough

 

[DeJesus Built My Hotrod]

coughcoughshhhhcoughcoughrollcough

The thing I don't understand is that we have so many talented GMs and managers amongst us (and it turns out these people are multi-talented because they post that they can do better than MLB, NFL, NHL and NBA GMs and coaches!). I suspect most of these folks would do the job for a lot less than the professional teams are paying them.

Why aren't the Sox hiring these posters to stock the roster and manage the team? They know so much more than the people in the seats doing the job!!!

 

[Bigpupp]

The thing I don't understand is that we have so many talented GMs and managers amongst us (and it turns out these people are multi-talented because they post that they can do better than MLB, NFL, NHL and NBA GMs and coaches!). I suspect most of these folks would do the job for a lot less than the professional teams are paying them.

Why aren't the Sox hiring these posters to stock the roster and manage the team? They know so much more than the people in the seats doing the job!!!

Because they're cheap and can't afford us. Duh.

 

[DeJesus Built My Hotrod]

Because they're cheap and can't afford us. Duh.

See the hack here is just use all the posts on the mainboard to run the team.

Step 1 - Use the freely available version of ChatGPT to consume all of SoSH's wisdom
Step 2 - Have the AI spit out roster moves, rotations and line-ups
Step 3 - Take all the money you save and fund an Alaskan lacrosse league

 

[Harry Hooper]

See the hack here is just use all the posts on the mainboard to run the team.

Step 1 - Use the freely available version of ChatGPT to consume all of SoSH's wisdom
Step 2 - Have the AI spit out roster moves, rotations and line-ups
Step 3 - Take all the money you save and fund an Alaskan lacrosse league

Implied, but you left out Step 4 - Profit

 

[DeJesus Built My Hotrod]

Implied, but you left out Step 4 - Profit

The most important one, especially for the most important part of the fanbase - RedBird Capital!

 

[Murby]

It's time to manufacture some runs! We'll see you tomorrow! Thanks for your help.

Kinda worked :/

 

[Diamond Don Aase]

See the hack here is just use all the posts on the mainboard to run the team.

Step 1 - Use the freely available version of ChatGPT to consume all of SoSH's wisdom
Step 2 - Have the AI spit out roster moves, rotations and line-ups
Step 3 - Take all the money you save and fund an Alaskan lacrosse league

When the Inupiat and the Iroquois get together, you can throw out the record books. Or use them for kindling.

 

[absintheofmalaise]

Kinda worked :/

Yeah. We need to figure out a way to prevent errors.

 

[E5 Yaz]

Yeah. We need to figure out a way to prevent errors.

Strike out every batter!

 

[DeJesus Built My Hotrod]

Strike out every batter!

If Cora and Breslow were serious about contending instead of running this team into the ground, they would take this advice to heart. Cora, especially, needs to get in faces of these guys and preach fundamentals as well as execution. Otherwise how will professional ball players know what to do?

But yeah, the game is simple. See the ball, hit the ball on offense. Strike guys out on defense. That's how you build a perennial contender!

 

[Harry Hooper]

But yeah, the game is simple. See the ball, hit the ball on offense. Strike guys out on defense. That's how you build a perennial contender!

 

[HfxBob]

You're the only one who gets to grossly mis-state someone's position? Is that how it works?

When you accuse another fan of being happy they lost, that takes it to a different level. All I was doing was defending Cora's strategy, which is obviously under fire here, of trying to keep the game tied with the better relievers. Perhaps you could read my post again and explain what I mis-stated.

 

[j-man]

if Heary wouild had spent $$$ this offseason u are 3-0 going for the sweep

 

[Rovin Romine]

When you accuse another fan of being happy they lost, that takes it to a different level. All I was doing was defending Cora's strategy, which is obviously under fire here, of trying to keep the game tied with the better relievers. Perhaps you could read my post again and explain what I mis-stated.

OK?

The decision to try to keep the game tied with the better relievers obviously worked, it's hilarious that anyone would even question that part. It's like suggesting we would have been better off losing in regulation innings.

I wasn't suggesting they'd be better off losing in regulation innings. And it's not hilarious that Cora could have kept his powder (Martin) dry for someone other than the 8 and 9 hitters in the lineup.

So when you lead with that shit, you expect me to take you seriously? To delicately unpack what you really might have meant? To "engage" with you?

Earn it.

 

[HfxBob]

OK?



I wasn't suggesting they'd be better off losing in regulation innings. And it's not hilarious that Cora could have kept his powder (Martin) dry for someone other than the 8 and 9 hitters in the lineup.

So when you lead with that shit, you expect me to take you seriously? To delicately unpack what you really might have meant? To "engage" with you?

Earn it.

There was absolutely nothing wrong with using Martin to face the 8/9/1 hitters in the bottom of the 8th of a tie game. It's common practice to give relievers clean innings as much as possible. And even the worst hitters have a 25-30% chance of getting on base. Guess what, one of them did. Then you've got the 1-2 hitters with a man on base. Totally defensible strategy.

The only viable alternative was bringing Campbell back for another batter or two, but this has been discussed. They didn't want to push him too much in the third game of the season.