A pitcher as most iconic player

[fineyoungarm]

Interestingly, an argument could be made about Nolan Ryan belonging on that list for multiple teams. Gun to my head, I'd probably go Pudge Rodriguez for the Rangers, but Nolan Ryan has to be in the conversation, no?

He has been (above). 

 

[fineyoungarm]

 
If you're talking about iconic to fans of the team, it's Ripken in a walk.  He's absolutely beloved in Baltimore, and in DC too since they didn't have a team during his tenure.

 
How soon DC fans forget - The Big Train.

 

[Dan to Theo to Ben]

 
How soon DC fans forget - The Big Train.

who?
 
 
j/k
 
DC is in many ways a city of transplants, the 1920's is a long time ago.

 

[Bosoxen]

He has been (above). 

 
Shit, I missed that post. I read the thread before posting, I promise.

 

[SumnerH]

 
How soon DC fans forget - The Big Train.

 
He wasn't exactly during Ripken's tenure.

 

[fineyoungarm]

 
He wasn't exactly during Ripken's tenure.

 
Walter Johnson casts a long shadow.
 
This thread has sort of been like a floating craps game - it has veered as far off course as women's figure skating in the olympics.

 

[fineyoungarm]

 
Shit, I missed that post. I read the thread before posting, I promise.

 
Never apologize, never explain. 

 

[fineyoungarm]

who?
 
 
j/k
 
DC is in many ways a city of transplants, the 1920's is a long time ago.

 
The idea originally was each teams' emblematic player - historically or locally, depending on the team - with freedom to venture as far a field as to discuss marathoners and start a thread about the NFL.  

 

[Spacemans Bong]

The 49ers is Montana. Rice is probably second, with Young third, but Joe's number one.
 
The A's is Rickey. Besides being a great player, Rickey is from Oakland.
 
Is Ryan really the most iconic Angel? For Angels fans, it's probably Bobby Grich or Tim Salmon. Or Garrett Anderson. Or Vlad, if you want a guy who will probably make the Hall of Fame.

 

[Dalton Jones]

I really think Stauback (sp?) is the Dallas Cowboy icon.

 

[Infield Infidel]

Arizona Cardinals would be either Aeneas Williams or Larry Fitzgerald. 

 

[Kliq]

Lefty Grove has a case for being the best Athletic.

 

[Dan to Theo to Ben]

 
 
The A's is Rickey. Besides being a great player, Rickey is from Oakland.
 
 

So is Eck, but from birth, not from seven. That said, I'd still vote Rickey under gunpoint (like is done in Oaktown).

 

[snowmanny]

nm
can't read rite

 

[fineyoungarm]

The 49ers is Montana. Rice is probably second, with Young third, but Joe's number one.
 
The A's is Rickey. Besides being a great player, Rickey is from Oakland.
 
Is Ryan really the most iconic Angel? For Angels fans, it's probably Bobby Grich or Tim Salmon. Or Garrett Anderson. Or Vlad, if you want a guy who will probably make the Hall of Fame.

Some old timers would put Jim Fergosi into contention. 

 

[Spacemans Bong]

So is Eck, but from birth, not from seven. That said, I'd still vote Rickey under gunpoint (like is done in Oaktown).

 
Eck grew up in Hayward, and Rickey still lives in Oakland, which Eck definitely does not.

 

[cannonball 1729]

I agree with Seaver, Feller and Ryan.  I guess for the Oakland A's R. Henderson would out pace a few of their pitchers.  To reach a good bit,  Warren Spahn for the "old" Milwaukee Brewers. Stupid fingers. Braves.
 
Seaver and Ryan have no competition.  Feller is looking at Al Kaline way back in his rearview mirror.

 
For Milwaukee, I can't see putting Spahn over Aaron.

 

[canderson]

Texas is Ryan IMO. Pudge should he but Nolan is Texan to the core and Texas fans - regardless the city or sport - place that fact really f'n high.

 

[fineyoungarm]

 
For Milwaukee, I can't see putting Spahn over Aaron.

 
You had to go there. I was trying to draw a fine line between Milwaukee and Atlanta to get the homely hurler listed.

 

[Al Zarilla]

Lefty Grove has a case for being the best Athletic.

Or Jimmy Foxx, if talking the Philadelphia Athletics. Both went to Boston in the Yawkey revival. I'd take Foxx because he's in the top 2 or 3 best RHHs of all time. But then Grove is one of the top LHPs...

 

[fineyoungarm]

Or Jimmy Foxx, if talking the Philadelphia Athletics. Both went to Boston in the Yawkey revival. I'd take Foxx because he's in the top 2 or 3 best RHHs of all time. But then Grove is one of the top LHPs...

Despite his misleading name. 

 

[OttoC]

Despite his misleading name. 

I guess that made sense to you but I don't know whether you were talking about Foxx or Grove or why.

 

[OttoC]

No mention of Willie Mays, Roberto Clemente?

 

[SumnerH]

Lefty Grove has a case for being the best Athletic.

Best is a whole different case from what was asked.  Without taking sides on the Athletics, Manny is clearly the better Red Sox hitter of the 2000s Red Sox, but Big Papi is just as clearly the more iconic 2000s Red Sox hitter.

 

[Kliq]

Best is a whole different case from what was asked.  Without taking sides on the Athletics, Manny is clearly the better Red Sox hitter of the 2000s Red Sox, but Big Papi is just as clearly the more iconic 2000s Red Sox hitter.

 
I understand that, but quality and iconic status do go hand in hand. Grove wasn't just one of the best pitchers of all time, but he was the ace of those awesome Athletic teams of the late 1920s-early 30s. If the topic is "What pitchers could be considered the most iconic player in franchise history?" then I think Grove has a pretty decent case.
 
I understand the point you are making, but I don't think Grove is the right guy. If I was saying that Will White was the most iconic player in Reds history, it would be bogus. White may be the best pitcher in Reds history, but how many Red's fans have even heard of him?

 

[SumnerH]

I understand that, but quality and iconic status do go hand in hand. Grove wasn't just one of the best pitchers of all time, but he was the ace of those awesome Athletic teams of the late 1920s-early 30s. If the topic is "What pitchers could be considered the most iconic player in franchise history?" then I think Grove has a pretty decent case.
 
I understand the point you are making, but I don't think Grove is the right guy. If I was saying that Will White was the most iconic player in Reds history, it would be bogus. White may be the best pitcher in Reds history, but how many Red's fans have even heard of him?

That's certainly true: being good is a huge boon toward making you an icon. It'd be surprising if any of the "most iconic" players weren't at least in the top 20 best players for their team. But being iconic also depends on marketability, charisma, recency, luck of the era, whether you won titles (which is luck-dependent), big moments, etc. And it definitely can ebb and flow over time, though some players (Ruth is the canonical example) are strong enough icons to at least resist temporal changes if not escape them entirely.

And ultimately it comes down to popularity: icons are icons because they represent the team to the general population. If 15 out of 20 random people don't recognize, say, Grove, and do recognize Ortiz, or Yaz, or even Nomar, it's really tough to say that Grove is the most iconic Red Sox player with a straight face. That's just what "icon" means.

 

[Kliq]

That's certainly true: being good is a huge boon toward making you an icon. It'd be surprising if any of the "most iconic" players weren't at least in the top 20 best players for their team. But being iconic also depends on marketability, charisma, recency, luck of the era, whether you won titles (which is luck-dependent), big moments, etc. And it definitely can ebb and flow over time, though some players (Ruth is the canonical example) are strong enough icons to at least resist temporal changes if not escape them entirely.

And ultimately it comes down to popularity: icons are icons because they represent the team to the general population. If 15 out of 20 random people don't recognize, say, Grove, and do recognize Ortiz, or Yaz, or even Nomar, it's really tough to say that Grove is the most iconic Red Sox player with a straight face. That's just what "icon" means.

 
I'm pretty much agreeing with you the entire way. I don't think Grove is a realistic answer for the Red Sox, I was talking about him being an answer for the A's.

 

[fineyoungarm]

I guess that made sense to you but I don't know whether you were talking about Foxx or Grove or why.

 
Lefty Foxx

 

[OttoC]

 
Lefty Foxx

 
?

 

[HriniakPosterChild]

 
Griffey probably has something to say about that

Felix hasn't forced his way out of town yet (good), driven away from town without saying goodbye (good) nor pitched his team to the World Series (incomplete).

I do expect Junior to the the M's first HOFer.

 

[inJacobyWeTrust]

For football
 
Rams- Eric Dickerson or Deacon Jones

 
Would Marshall Faulk merit consideration?

 

[SoxFanInCali]

 
Would Marshall Faulk merit consideration?

If you split the Rams history into LA and St. Louis (and yes, I know they were in Cleveland, too), I'd say it's Deacon Jones for LA and Faulk or Isaac Bruce for STL.
 
Overall franchise history, it's Deacon, with Merlin Olsen also having a case.

 

[Eric1984]

 OK, so Ty Cobb is looking at Al Kaline way back in his rearview mirror.

Maybe as a player. But speaking as a Michigan native and lifelong Tiger fan, Kaline is the most iconic and it's not close. Recency, personality, remained in the Detroit area after his playing career, spent more than 2 decades as the color guy on Tiger broadcasts, still involved with the organization, and - oh yeah - probably the second greatest player in the history of the franchise (depending on where you put him with Greenberg, Gehringer and Cabrera). Kind of like how Rogers Hornsby may have been the best Cub but Ernie Banks is Mr. Cub (though maybe not the best comparison since Hornsby was only a Cub for 5 years - but he had huge years there).

Interestingly, the second most iconic Tiger to fans is probably either Trammell or Lolich - neither of whom are Hall of Famers, though Trammell really should be.

 

[DanoooME]

Why not just most iconic pitchers?  I'm sure I'll miss a few
 
Arizona - Johnson, Schilling
Atlanta - Maddux, Smoltz, Glavine, Niekro
Baltimore - Palmer
Boston Red Sox - Pedro
Boston Braves - Kid Nichols
Brooklyn Dodgers - Dazzy Vance
Chicago Cubs - Three Finger Brown, Jenkins
Chicago White Sox - Wilbur Wood, Buehrle
Cincinnati Reds - Mario Soto, Jim Maloney
Cleveland - Feller
Colorado - LOL
Detroit - Lolich, McLain, Newhouser, Verlander
Houston - Ryan, Richard, Scott
KC A's - Ned Garver
KC Royals - Saberhagen, Quisenberry, Appier
LAAAAA - Ryan, Tanana
LA Dodgers - Koufax, Drysdale, Hershiser, Valenzuela, Kershaw
Miami - Josh Johnson, Beckett, Burnett, Kevin Brown
Milwaukee Braves - Spahn
Milwaukee Brewers - Higuera, Fingers, Vuckovich
Minnesota - Blyleven, Santana, Radke
Montreal Expos - Rogers, Langston, Gullickson
NY Giants - Mathewson, McGinnity, Maglie
NY Mets - Seaver, Koosman, Gooden
NY Yankees - Ford, Gomez, Gossage, Guidry
Oakland - Hunter, FIngers, Eck, Stewart, Hudson, Blue
Philly A's - Grove, Waddell, Plank
Philadelphia Phillies - Carlton, Roberts
Pittsburgh - Friend, Drabek, Face
San Diego - Randy Jones, Hoffman, Peavy
San Francisco - Marichal
Seattle - Johnson
St. Louis Browns - Urban Shocker
St. Louis Cardinals - Gibson, Dean
Tampa Bay - Price
Texas - Jenkins, Ryan
Toronto - Stieb, Key
Washington Nats - Strasburg
Washington Senators - Walter Johnson