On a similar note this year’s Celtics team is giving me mid 90s Dallas Mavericks vibes. Those teams had considerable young talent in Jason Kidd, Jimmy Jackson and Jamal Mashburn and not much of a roster beyond that. Those teams were a sieve on defense and perennially sub .500.OTOH, I'm sometimes reminded of the Celtics under Walker and Pierce.
I think a big issue, even on offense, is Smart's absence.Has anyone heard any updates on Smart’s status and his likely return?
I just saw where the Lakers just lost their 4th in a row, leaving them 5-5 without AD.
Now Smart is no AD, but I think his importance on this team is close to as critical.
And I think in regard to the J's, who are still young but have a longer tenure, the fact that their roles on the team have evolved from "rising stars" to "team leaders who need to live up to star billing" adds to the issue. This takes time in any situation but with this roster construction and injuries it's even more difficult.Interesting stat from Grande:
View: https://twitter.com/seangrandepbp/status/1364842725170962438?s=21
The team is very young. Players get better, both physically and mentally. We’ll see how they respond. Gorman isn’t just some nobody who spouts off. He’s a cultural touchstone. This should really sting.
I think you can take it one further. Yes both JT and JB are All-Stars - and deservedly so - but the next step from "rising stars" to "team leaders" to "top 10 player" is being able to make teammates better. As Scal discussed last night - yes, maybe the bench is thin but there's no evidence that JB/JT are doing much to lift them up (I believe Scal said, "They're not getting the bench 6-10 wide open looks a night").And I think in regard to the J's, who are still young but have a longer tenure, the fact that their roles on the team have evolved from "rising stars" to "team leaders who need to live up to star billing" adds to the issue. This takes time in any situation but with this roster construction and injuries it's even more difficult.
So why all the teeth gnashing about the "2 big" lineup? Because 2 is one more than the usual 1.Also don't know what you mean by there is only one forward playing most of the time.
I can almost guess what he's going to say. Bad roster is on me but guys still have to play harder. It's a weird season and coming off last season, it's been a lot. Will look into every avenue to improve but most of the improvement is going to have to come from inside. Didn't play Celtic basketball last night. Every confidence in Brad that he can fix this.
As a note, this was not aimed at you, but another poster claiming TT is a 3rd string C and we should have used the MLE to sign a magical wing.Who's doing that?
And this is also not an argument I've made, but is clearly aimed at me.
You can "fuck off with this bullshit"
I posted this in the game thread last night and didn’t get nearly the amount of shit that I thought I would so I think I’ll post it here as well. As I said there, this does seem a lot like the Nomar Baskin Robbins story from back in the day but anyway...The Gorman comments are spot on. The team is nowhere good enough to withstand a lack of ball movement and defense; the J's aren't as good as they seem to think they are either. Tatum calling out Pritchard during a game is true bullshit. It's definitely not fixable this season either.
OTOH, I'm sometimes reminded of the Celtics under Walker and Pierce. Of course, one key difference is that the Celtics coaching was horrific, but, as much as I hate to give Pitino credit for anything, he was right that they were both really young during the "Larry Bird's not walking through that door" presser. We wondered at the time if Pierce was ever going to be the cornerstone of the next championship team. Tatum is 8 years younger than the 2008 Paul Pierce.
The big mistake fans make when evaluating free agency decisions is assuming that all you have to offer is the same money as whatever a guy signed for. It's probably more informative to role play from the free agent's perspective, consider their options, and why they might have made the decisions they made.As a note, this was not aimed at you, but another poster claiming TT is a 3rd string C and we should have used the MLE to sign a magical wing.
That was yesterday, they guaranteed him. Which is the biggest indicator I have yet that they are just punting the season. He's not good at anything besides playing hard. I'm sure they could find another player that would help the team more with that roster spot.Cs face 5:00 p.m. deadline to guarantee JGreen's $1.5M salary
View: https://twitter.com/RedsArmy_John/status/1364626316713209859
I'd guess it is as much about the salary slot which they might use in a trade as the player. Though I agree keeping him was a mistake in the offseason.That was yesterday, they guaranteed him. Which is the biggest indicator I have yet that they are just punting the season. He's not good at anything besides playing hard. I'm sure they could find another player that would help the team more with that roster spot.
Could they? Go take a look at the unsigned players.... it's dire. He's there to be traded or cut in a TPE trade or when a buyout comes along, his value is he plays hard on D and that's all you usually ask for in your deep bench guys.That was yesterday, they guaranteed him. Which is the biggest indicator I have yet that they are just punting the season. He's not good at anything besides playing hard. I'm sure they could find another player that would help the team more with that roster spot.
Both Glenn Robinson III and Shaq Harrison were waived and are demonstrably better, legit NBA players (which Green is not). But they don't really make a difference in the big picture, not sure it is worthwhile.Could they? Go take a look at the unsigned players.... it's dire. He's there to be traded or cut in a TPE trade or when a buyout comes along, his value is he plays hard on D and that's all you usually ask for in your deep bench guys.
I believe this was the answer from the game threadHow in the world do you allow a team to shoot 55% from three in a game? The perimeter defense is beyond awful right now without Marcus and it sure doesn't look like Brad has any answers right now.
I'd quibble with the "definitely not fixable this season". Of course it is.The Gorman comments are spot on. The team is nowhere good enough to withstand a lack of ball movement and defense; the J's aren't as good as they seem to think they are either. Tatum calling out Pritchard during a game is true bullshit. It's definitely not fixable this season either.
Seeing Danny use "resolve" and "commitment" are bad signs. Basically saying the team is soft and lazy.Believes team is lacking confidence and resolve *
“I still am a believer that our team can make a run.”
* “It’s a me problem.”
* Goes to bat for Brad. “This is a Danny Ainge, + our player commitment issue more than anything else
Thanks. Hard to keep track of days these days!That was yesterday, they guaranteed him. Which is the biggest indicator I have yet that they are just punting the season. He's not good at anything besides playing hard. I'm sure they could find another player that would help the team more with that roster spot.
They were 5-1 without AD prior to missing Schroeder over their last 4 games, all losses. This Celtics team REALLY misses Smart for similar reasons the Lakers miss Schroeder, the replacements do not provide any firepower or shot creation resulting in bad shots forced up against the 24 clock.Has anyone heard any updates on Smart’s status and his likely return?
I just saw where the Lakers just lost their 4th in a row, leaving them 5-5 without AD.
Now Smart is no AD, but I think his importance on this team is close to as critical.
I don't agree with all of this, but I'd like to focus on the bolded. I don't have statistical data to back this up because I'm not sure there is a way to actually quantify this, but it seems to me that the times where the Celtics have the most success on offense, including when these non-scorers are sharing the floor with the scorers, are when they play with pace and intent. Stretches of games where they are badly outplayed and outhustled always coincide with low energy and a lack of urgency. Further exacerbating this is there are no "easy" buckets in transition because the defense has been putrid and is not turning teams over at the rate they are capable of. "Point" Tatum walking the ball up the court, narrowly avoiding an 8 second violation on a majority of trips, and asking a big to set a pick 38' from the basket with wings cemented in the corners for spacing/bail outs for drive & kick almost always results in a terrible possession, regardless of outcome, because the defense is set, the offensive scheme is vanilla and predictable, and Tatum a) doesn't find the open man often enough and b) doesn't trust them enough to go back to them if they don't execute. How does that not crater the "non-scorers" confidence? I'm going to shake my fist at clouds a bit with this take, but after watching every minute of every game this season, no statistical analysis will change what my eyes are telling me. This team often plays slow, Tatum is a stopper, and they do not get the defense into rotation frequently enough to generate open looks that even "non-scorer" NBA players can hit an acceptable percentage of.More people need to recognize that an offense doesn’t get into its set until about 17-18 remaining on the clock and only has 10-12 seconds to create a scoring opportunity. If a good shot isn’t created in the first 10-12 seconds the ball generally ends up in your best scorers hands with 5-6 seconds to get off “a” shot. Having the ball touching non-scorers hands during the 10-12 seconds of action undermines your entire set and places the offense in a severe disadvantage. So when Tatum is rushing a shot against the clock out initial reaction is to blame him for joy creating a good shot, being in iso, etc......when the real blame belongs to the players who failed to execute during the 10-12 sec window prior to Tatum going into iso. Yes, there are times when both of this is on Tatum but generally when you have players on the floor without any shot attempts there is a problem with that players offense and/or the overall scheme.
I talked about this last night repeatedly in the game thread. There is no offense, there is no set. The C's come down the floor, and 2 guys go to each corner, one guy goes to the wing (all 3 of whom are behind the arc) and they just stand there twiddling their thumbs. The person bringing up the ball holds for a few seconds, sometimes more, and waits for the "big" that isn't named Theis (because he's usually waiting in a corner to chuck a 3 that he's missed 15 of his last 16 times) to set a pick. If that doesnt' work, then one of the guys standing around comes and takes a handoff and throws up a shot.They were 5-1 without AD prior to missing Schroeder over their last 4 games, all losses. This Celtics team REALLY misses Smart for similar reasons the Lakers miss Schroeder, the replacements do not provide any firepower or shot creation resulting in bad shots forced up against the 24 clock.
More people need to recognize that an offense doesn’t get into its set until about 17-18 remaining on the clock and only has 10-12 seconds to create a scoring opportunity. If a good shot isn’t created in the first 10-12 seconds the ball generally ends up in your best scorers hands with 5-6 seconds to get off “a” shot. Having the ball touching non-scorers hands during the 10-12 seconds of action undermines your entire set and places the offense in a severe disadvantage. So when Tatum is rushing a shot against the clock out initial reaction is to blame him for joy creating a good shot, being in iso, etc......when the real blame belongs to the players who failed to execute during the 10-12 sec window prior to Tatum going into iso. Yes, there are times when both of this is on Tatum but generally when you have players on the floor without any shot attempts there is a problem with that players offense and/or the overall scheme.
I think Robinson would be a nice addition. More so than Javonte Green, thats for sureBoth Glenn Robinson III and Shaq Harrison were waived and are demonstrably better, legit NBA players (which Green is not). But they don't really make a difference in the big picture, not sure it is worthwhile.
I flipped around and was enjoying the Lakers lose, but during a timeout you I Lebron telling some schmuck "You gotta shoot that, that's your shot man." It just struck me that the GOAT does that while our neophyte all stars don't.Having the ball touching non-scorers hands during the 10-12 seconds of action undermines your entire set and places the offense in a severe disadvantage.
That's not the offense. That's what JT does and one thing I agree with you - I hope someone is breaking this down - that from my limited viewing and memory, the scoring efficiency on plays where JT is the only person who touches the ball is pretty low.I talked about this last night repeatedly in the game thread. There is no offense, there is no set. The C's come down the floor, and 2 guys go to each corner, one guy goes to the wing (all 3 of whom are behind the arc) and they just stand there twiddling their thumbs. The person bringing up the ball holds for a few seconds, sometimes more, and waits for the "big" that isn't named Theis (because he's usually waiting in a corner to chuck a 3 that he's missed 15 of his last 16 times) to set a pick. If that doesnt' work, then one of the guys standing around comes and takes a handoff and throws up a shot.
That's it. That's the entire offense right now. There is nobody ever cutting across the basket, nobody cutting on the baseline, no movement at all from basically anyone outside the PnR duo. Atlanta wasn't doing much differently, running a lot of PnR's to get Trae open, but underneath, they are constantly moving, constantly setting off-ball screens, constantly working to get the guys open on the 3 point line. 3 of our shooters are almost never going to be open, because they are just standing around. It's over and over and over and over again, the same thing. This isn't a confidence issue, it's not a trust issue, it's a lack of any sort of ball movement/player movement issue, and it's so damn predictable.
Edit: I knew how to work the interwebs, I'd go find a specific play from last night that I pointed out when Tatum made a 3 pointer. He brought the ball up quickly (which is rare), never passed it, and made a step back 3 off the PnR with about 15 seconds on the shot clock. If he had missed, there would have been 4 Hawks there to get the board, because not one one player on the C's, including the pick-setter, ever made it inside the 3 point line. They ran down the court ahead of Tatum, ran to their pre-ordained spots 30 feet from the hoop and did nothing.
Yes, virtually every offense will be more effective with Pace as it creates advantage however I’m referring specifically to possessions following a basket when the ball cannot be inbounded quickly and the defense is set thus negating the Pace advantage. I should have been more clear.I don't agree with all of this, but I'd like to focus on the bolded. I don't have statistical data to back this up because I'm not sure there is a way to actually quantify this, but it seems to me that the times where the Celtics have the most success on offense, including when these non-scorers are sharing the floor with the scorers, are when they play with pace and intent. Stretches of games where they are badly outplayed and outhustled always coincide with low energy and a lack of urgency. Further exacerbating this is there are no "easy" buckets in transition because the defense has been putrid and is not turning teams over at the rate they are capable of. "Point" Tatum walking the ball up the court, narrowly avoiding an 8 second violation on a majority of trips, and asking a big to set a pick 38' from the basket with wings cemented in the corners for spacing/bail outs for drive & kick almost always results in a terrible possession, regardless of outcome, because the defense is set, the offensive scheme is vanilla and predictable, and Tatum a) doesn't find the open man often enough and b) doesn't trust them enough to go back to them if they don't execute. How does that not crater the "non-scorers" confidence? I'm going to shake my fist at clouds a bit with this take, but after watching every minute of every game this season, no statistical analysis will change what my eyes are telling me. This team often plays slow, Tatum is a stopper, and they do not get the defense into rotation frequently enough to generate open looks that even "non-scorer" NBA players can hit an acceptable percentage of.
Now you are trolling me? OK, I'll stand by TT being this team's 3rd string/best Center (now and pre-season).As a note, this was not aimed at you, but another poster claiming TT is a 3rd string C and we should have used the MLE to sign a magical wing.
TT is a very valuable part of the team and that's with everything going basically perfectly with the other 2 bigs, and the MLE wing options were almost all one of: signed by the time Hayward made his decision, more interested in other options, or bad. Between injuries and poor play our wing situation has been hit hard, but overall we still had more depth there than at the big spots, it just happens that TL is having a career best season and he and Theis have stayed healthy, while Tatum and Smart have missed time, Langford has had a slow recover, Nesmith started slow and all the bench swing/wings (GW, Semi, Green) have been worse than last year.
More than pace, I think everyone being a threat, is an issue. The Cs have three ball stoppers. How often do Tatum or Brown just swing the ball.Yes, virtually every offense will be more effective with Pace as it creates advantageS however I’m referring specifically to possessions following a basket when the ball cannot be inbounded quickly and the defense is set thus negating the Pace advantage. I should have been more clear.
It's not just JT. It's the same thing when Kemba brings the ball up the court. The big comes out to set a screen, the other 3 players stand around at the 3 point line, and then when Kemba needs someone to pass to, one of the wings (usually JT or JB) comes over and takes the handoff, and then they run another PnR, lather, rinse, repeat.That's not the offense. That's what JT does and one thing I agree with you - I hope someone is breaking this down - that from my limited viewing and memory, the scoring efficiency on plays where JT is the only person who touches the ball is pretty low.
That being said, Brad's offense is designed for the ball to move side-to-side. That can't happen without other people touching the ball. We've all seen it in years past. It's not like Brad forgot how to coach basketball.
At the end of the day, I think a lot of it is that JB and JT think, "Man we need a bucket. I'm going to go get us a bucket." That's a scorer's mentality. But it's different from a PG mentality of, "Man, I got get other people involved."
Agree with all of this and it’s why I feel certain that there are trust issues between our best players and complementary players. Sometimes we overthink things.....every team runs the same stuff; there is no magical NBA offensive “system” and the personnel is going to determine the results. Teams will look to play with Pace.....unless they play two bigs and their best players are iso/PNR guys.I flipped around and was enjoying the Lakers lose, but during a timeout you I Lebron telling some schmuck "You gotta shoot that, that's your shot man." It just struck me that the GOAT does that while our neophyte all stars don't.
The other team dictates what you do. You can't ignore the other players. Just to take an example of a team scoring at will, Atlanta had pretty much everyone touching the ball in the 12 seconds. It's the NBA all five guys have to be able to do something. When they are going well they are making 3s, from multiple guys. Teams are defending the Celtics as if 3 of the five guys are non scorers. To stop the Cs teams drop off of the other guys, clog up Tatum, Brown.
Danny mentioned confidence and resolve. Chicken or the egg are others not cutting because they don't get passed to a lot or not getting passed to because of bad movement. Doesn't really matter why, result is the same, guys standing around. The Js, as stars need to take the blame. This is bad teams blues. They commit to a gameplan for about 5 minutes. So many times guys don't even square, they are just looking to get the ball back to J1, J2, and Kemba. Teams are not letting Timelord hand it back to the scorer because they know he has no other intent. Nesmith is crapping his pants trying to get it back to tatum half the time. He gets out there with the other scrubs and starts drilling shots. When was the last time we happily posted "ball movement!" in a game thread after 3,4 passes and a wide open shot?
Yes, this is my primary point. I was addressing the specific issue of our personnel on the floor and why we don’t play with Pace.More than pace, I think everyone being a threat, is an issue. The Cs have three ball stoppers. How often do Tatum or Brown just swing the ball.
This is implying that Gallo and Nesmith are capable of making the same reads and understanding when to slide into certain spots based on what the ball handler/defense are doing. It is also implying that the ball handlers trust Nesmith to know how to properly react as someone like Gallo would.It's not just JT. It's the same thing when Kemba brings the ball up the court. The big comes out to set a screen, the other 3 players stand around at the 3 point line, and then when Kemba needs someone to pass to, one of the wings (usually JT or JB) comes over and takes the handoff, and then they run another PnR, lather, rinse, repeat.
It's the off ball movement that is basically non-existent. There is nothing going on down low, there is nothing going on at the baseline, etc. This is why a few nights ago, I was in the game thread extolling the virtues of the offense in the early part of the game because they were flashing TT to the free throw line, and then Tatum and Brown were getting inside on the block, and taking a feed from TT. It led to two easy layups in the first like 3 minutes of the game. As far as I can tell, they never ran it again. Like I said, watch any other team off the ball, and watch their movement, and then watch the C's. It's night and day.
It's also why guys like Nesmith never get open looks unless it's from a drive and kick. Whereas a guy like Gallo is getting open looks all over the court even without a drive and kick. It's why Golden State gets Curry open looks constantly, because he's always moving.
How do you move the ball from side to side, when the guys on the sides aren't actually moving, so their defenders are constantly up in their face denying the pass?
This is all 100% correct.I flipped around and was enjoying the Lakers lose, but during a timeout you I Lebron telling some schmuck "You gotta shoot that, that's your shot man." It just struck me that the GOAT does that while our neophyte all stars don't.
The other team dictates what you do. You can't ignore the other players. Just to take an example of a team scoring at will, Atlanta had pretty much everyone touching the ball in the 12 seconds. It's the NBA all five guys have to be able to do something. When they are going well they are making 3s, from multiple guys. Teams are defending the Celtics as if 3 of the five guys are non scorers. To stop the Cs teams drop off of the other guys, clog up Tatum, Brown.
Danny mentioned confidence and resolve. Chicken or the egg are others not cutting because they don't get passed to a lot or not getting passed to because of bad movement. Doesn't really matter why, result is the same, guys standing around. The Js, as stars need to take the blame. This is bad teams blues. They commit to a gameplan for about 5 minutes. So many times guys don't even square, they are just looking to get the ball back to J1, J2, and Kemba. Teams are not letting Timelord hand it back to the scorer because they know he has no other intent. Nesmith is crapping his pants trying to get it back to tatum half the time. He gets out there with the other scrubs and starts drilling shots. When was the last time we happily posted "ball movement!" in a game thread after 3,4 passes and a wide open shot?
Your post illustrates why Ainge specifically used the words “dynamic” and “subservient” in response to the needs and weakness of his secondary players.This is all 100% correct.
Not to give JT and JB a pass here, but everyone needs to be aggressive. That's not what we're seeing. We see a guy make a smart cut to the basket for an easy look about every other game.
I love that the Js are learning to find other guys, especially as it was a weak spot for JB in particular. But the other guys on offense are acting like they're just happy to be there.
If Gallo had a usage rate of 12.2% like Nesmith does, then yeah, I could see him having a game his rookie year where he didn't take a shot in 21 minutes. But he's never had a usage rate below 16.0% (his rookie year). Nesmith is currently touching the ball on offense less than any other Celtic besides Semi (11.8%). Shit, when Tacko is in the game, he has a higher usage rate than Nesmith. If you think Nesmith doesn't have a shooter's mentality or know how to get some space, we'll just have to agree to disagree. He managed to figure out how to get 8 3PA per game at Vandy last year, and made what, over 50% of them? And apparently, he's now forgotten how to slide over into position fo a shot?This is implying that Gallo and Nesmith are capable of making the same reads and understanding when to slide into certain spots based on what the ball handler/defense are doing. It is also implying that the ball handlers trust Nesmith to know how to properly react as someone like Gallo would.
Let me ask this.....do you feel that Gallo would respond the same way as a Nesmith if he was in his place and would Kemba/Tatum trust Gallo to know how to properly react to their movements with the ball? Finally, would Gallo play 21 minutes in a game with this lineup and fail to take one shot?