A’s have signed a binding agreement to purchase land for a future ballpark in Las Vegas.

Minneapolis Millers

Wants you to please think of the Twins fans!
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
4,753
Twin Cities
California doesn’t need 5 teams, especially if one is averaging fewer fans per game than most minor league squads. Portland makes all kinds of sense, especially geographically. I agree that there’s room in the South for another MLB team (the Chik-fil-A’s). Texas could support another, too. I’m not a huge fan of Montreal or Mexico City (or more far flung options, like London), for a variety of logistical and other reasons.
 

Minneapolis Millers

Wants you to please think of the Twins fans!
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
4,753
Twin Cities
As for the Coliseum v the Trop? I’ve been to both. Horse v cow manure. The Coliseum is a dump and an architectural eye sore, but it’s outdoors with real grass. Tropicana is not an actual, functional MLB ballpark. Both made going to games at the Metrodome seem…ok. And the Dome was awful.
 

CarolinaBeerGuy

Don't know him from Adam
SoSH Member
Mar 14, 2006
10,531
Kernersville, NC
There’s a thriving minor league fan base in North Carolina and we love baseball. We have 11 minor league teams which is more than any other state without a team and more than most states with teams. Move them (or the Rays) to Charlotte.
 

LogansDad

Member
SoSH Member
Nov 15, 2006
30,829
Alamogordo
There’s a thriving minor league fan base in North Carolina and we love baseball. We have 11 minor league teams which is more than any other state without a team and more than most states with teams. Move them (or the Rays) to Charlotte.
How much of an effect do you think throwing a Major League team in the mix would have on the Carolina League? I know that MLB owners could gives a rat's ass about the success of their Minor League affiliates, but I feel like the owners of those clubs might push back at least a little on that.
 

lexrageorge

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2007
18,832
What's the problem with building a reasonable ballpark where the arena is considering it's most likely coming down as well- you don't lose much parking in the interim, then when the Mausoleum is finally razed, you get more back.
The problem is the location. One of the less mentioned tragedies of the cookie cutter parks built in the 60's and 70's was the fact that the parks were built in out of the way suburbs of the towns they were located. Now ballparks are once again located in more urban areas close to the downtown areas.

The A's were the team of the Bay Area in the late 1980's and early 90's. One obvious reason was that they were really good. But another aspect was that their park, as much as we complain it about now, was way better than Candlestick, and in a much better and more accessible location. The Giants fixed that problem and instantly became the region's team. The A's could build a nice park in the current location, but the location will still be a problem when it comes to attracting season ticket holders and premium seat licensees. Which is why the team has been trying to get a new stadium closer to downtown Oakland, but that is going to be a hard sell that is only getting harder by the day.

Portland would probably welcome the A's. Biggest concern is the size of the market; it will never be NY.
 

Zososoxfan

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 30, 2009
9,426
South of North
As for the Coliseum v the Trop? I’ve been to both. Horse v cow manure. The Coliseum is a dump and an architectural eye sore, but it’s outdoors with real grass. Tropicana is not an actual, functional MLB ballpark. Both made going to games at the Metrodome seem…ok. And the Dome was awful.
I'm glad someone else said it. I've been to both as well, and while they both suck, people are really understating the suck of the Trop.

That said, Tampa is a really solid baseball town, but the team needs to be in or near Downtown Tampa. The real shit of it is that the biz community made a strong play to Sternberg and put together the parcels for him, but he balked because there wasn't enough public funding. So for nth-millionth time, Sternberg can get fucked 5 ways to Friday. The Rays' TV numbers have always been good, but attendance has sucked primarily because of the Trop's location (surrounded by water on 3 sides with no viable public transit) and the shitty stadium. That said, that shitty stadium did it's job and got the franchise all those 30 years ago.

Tampa is growing in a positive way for the first time in like 50-60 years but there's still time for the Rays to get a primo spot in the Downtown corridor. It would be a real shame if they don't get there for one reason or another.
 

axx

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 16, 2005
8,175
The problem is the location. One of the less mentioned tragedies of the cookie cutter parks built in the 60's and 70's was the fact that the parks were built in out of the way suburbs of the towns they were located. Now ballparks are once again located in more urban areas close to the downtown areas.
The Bay really should be a 1 franchise town. It'd be like if there was a team in Everett or Chelsea.

Go look on a map, all the big Techbro companies are really in the San Jose burbs. That's why the Giants will never let San Jose happen.
 

coremiller

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 14, 2005
5,950
The problem is the location. One of the less mentioned tragedies of the cookie cutter parks built in the 60's and 70's was the fact that the parks were built in out of the way suburbs of the towns they were located. Now ballparks are once again located in more urban areas close to the downtown areas.

The A's were the team of the Bay Area in the late 1980's and early 90's. One obvious reason was that they were really good. But another aspect was that their park, as much as we complain it about now, was way better than Candlestick, and in a much better and more accessible location. The Giants fixed that problem and instantly became the region's team. The A's could build a nice park in the current location, but the location will still be a problem when it comes to attracting season ticket holders and premium seat licensees. Which is why the team has been trying to get a new stadium closer to downtown Oakland, but that is going to be a hard sell that is only getting harder by the day.

Portland would probably welcome the A's. Biggest concern is the size of the market; it will never be NY.
Yeah, the A's regularly outdrew the Giants in the 1980s. In 1989, when both teams went to the World Series, the A's drew 2.67 million fans and the Giants 2.01.

Of course, since then the Giants moved from the worst park in baseball to one of the best parks in baseball in a convenient downtown location, while Oakland ruined the stadium by building Mount Davis to lure the Raiders back from LA.
 

Ale Xander

Hamilton
SoSH Member
Oct 31, 2013
76,405
Tonight's game is on AppleTV. Going to put the "there is no such thing as bad publicity" to the test. Although it's a Friday night, so maybe they'll get 10k fans. Interested to see what the new age announcers on AppleTV say about attendance. Going to have to fill the screen with even more analytics than last week so people can't see the empty seats I bet.
 

CaptainLaddie

dj paul pfieffer
SoSH Member
Sep 6, 2004
37,811
where the darn libs live
Not to derail the thread by continuing the expansion route, but has there been any talk about expanding into Mexico? Mexico City would probably be too far w/o an established network south of the border, but Monterrey would be a decent 1st candidate. They've already got a Mexican League team that leads the league in attendance, and it's not too far geographically (or culturally) from the southern teams.
Mexico City would be Denver 2.0, but worse. It's another 2,000+ feet of altitude over Denver.
 

Daniel_Son

Member
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May 25, 2021
1,852
San Diego
Mexico City would be Denver 2.0, but worse. It's another 2,000+ feet of altitude over Denver.
Agreed on Mexico City, didn't want to get into the elevation but you're right. Not a viable candidate at this point.

Monterrey, however, is only 1,772 feet above sea level - still the second highest after Denver, but much closer to Arizona (1082) and Atlanta (1050).
 

Hoya81

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Feb 3, 2010
8,582
I totally pity the Oakland Raiders fans. The Oakland A's fans? The Athletics never should have left Kansas City.
They could have hung on in Philadelphia if the Macks hadn’t been so inept and if the AL president had allowed local bidders to take over the team.
 

Didot Fromager

New Member
Apr 23, 2010
33
I totally pity the Oakland Raiders fans. The Oakland A's fans? The Athletics never should have left Kansas City.
Or Philadelphia? I've lived in Philly for the last 20 years and there is absolutely no sense of nostalgia that I've ever seen for the A's, but nonetheless I can't tell you how cool it would be if the Phillies had moved to KC and the AL East today was the MFY, As, Os, Blue Jays (or Rays - doesn't matter), and Red Sox.
 

Yelling At Clouds

Post-darwinian
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Jul 19, 2005
3,613
A couple of people have brought this up, so I’ll ask a question I’ve wondered about for a long time - how come there’s never seemed to be much momentum towards putting a team in Austin? It seems like it’s a pretty big city and the Dallas and Houston teams do well (when the teams are good). Does anyone have more insight why it’s seldom mentioned as a destination? Again, this is a genuine question - I know very little about the place beyond what I’ve been able to glean from old blog posts about SXSW.
 

jon abbey

Shanghai Warrior
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Jul 15, 2005
72,703
A couple of people have brought this up, so I’ll ask a question I’ve wondered about for a long time - how come there’s never seemed to be much momentum towards putting a team in Austin? It seems like it’s a pretty big city and the Dallas and Houston teams do well (when the teams are good). Does anyone have more insight why it’s seldom mentioned as a destination? Again, this is a genuine question - I know very little about the place beyond what I’ve been able to glean from old blog posts about SXSW.
San Antonio is even bigger, 6th most populous US city as of 2020:

https://worldpopulationreview.com/us-cities
 

CarolinaBeerGuy

Don't know him from Adam
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Mar 14, 2006
10,531
Kernersville, NC
How much of an effect do you think throwing a Major League team in the mix would have on the Carolina League? I know that MLB owners could gives a rat's ass about the success of their Minor League affiliates, but I feel like the owners of those clubs might push back at least a little on that.
I don’t think it would have much of an impact on that league. While there are 4 Carolina League teams in the state, the only one anywhere close to Charlotte is Kannapolis which is 25 or so miles away. The other 3 are between 130 and 250 miles away.
 

Daniel_Son

Member
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May 25, 2021
1,852
San Diego
A couple of people have brought this up, so I’ll ask a question I’ve wondered about for a long time - how come there’s never seemed to be much momentum towards putting a team in Austin? It seems like it’s a pretty big city and the Dallas and Houston teams do well (when the teams are good). Does anyone have more insight why it’s seldom mentioned as a destination? Again, this is a genuine question - I know very little about the place beyond what I’ve been able to glean from old blog posts about SXSW.
I think it'd be too close to Houston, wouldn't it? Less than 3 hours away... although I guess that's about the same distance between San Diego and LA. San Antonio (or maybe El Paso?) would probably be a better destination for a third Texas team.
 

Heating up in the bullpen

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Nov 24, 2007
1,184
Pittsboro NC
I don’t think it would have much of an impact on that league. While there are 4 Carolina League teams in the state, the only one anywhere close to Charlotte is Kannapolis which is 25 or so miles away. The other 3 are between 130 and 250 miles away.
Yup. Charlotte would be losing its Triple A team, but I think the other minor league teams -- Carolina League, SALLY, International (Durham Bulls) -- would be fine. I'd love for an MLB team to be in Charlotte; when the Red Sox came through it would give me a reason to take the train down from Durham.
 

Max Power

thai good. you like shirt?
SoSH Member
Jul 20, 2005
8,234
Boston, MA
Or Philadelphia? I've lived in Philly for the last 20 years and there is absolutely no sense of nostalgia that I've ever seen for the A's, but nonetheless I can't tell you how cool it would be if the Phillies had moved to KC and the AL East today was the MFY, As, Os, Blue Jays (or Rays - doesn't matter), and Red Sox.
The Kansas City Phillies would be even more silly than the Utah Jazz.
 

Toe Nash

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Jul 28, 2005
5,733
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San Antonio is even bigger, 6th most populous US city as of 2020:

https://worldpopulationreview.com/us-cities
CSAs or probably MSAs are a better measure unless you think only people within the city limits would go to games. San Antonio is the 25th CSA behind Portland, Charlotte, Orlando (24th MSA). Austin isn't in a CSA but its MSA is 28th. So none are slam dunks but they probably could all support something if the conditions were right (Portland and Charlotte seem like the best to me given their wealth and the distance they'd cover -- Austin would be pretty close to Arlington which is likely why they aren't mentioned much).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combined_statistical_area

As I noted the LA and NYC areas could likely support an additional team and there should be 2 in the greater Bay Area, but the second should probably be in San Jose. Chicago could maybe have a third but Milwaukee is close.

You don't need to do this all at once but it would be nice to see some action in the direction of expansion. If the thinking is that baseball is more a regional niche game that cultivates loyal followers who drive ticket revenue instead of the National Pastime it's a little weird that MLB is shutting down minor league teams and not considering expanding its reach.
 

ernieshore

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Aug 24, 2006
2,391
The Camel City
Yup. Charlotte would be losing its Triple A team, but I think the other minor league teams -- Carolina League, SALLY, International (Durham Bulls) -- would be fine. I'd love for an MLB team to be in Charlotte; when the Red Sox came through it would give me a reason to take the train down from Durham.
I remember when the Twins "almost" moved to Kernersville -- yes, Kernersville. They played an exhibition game in Winston-Salem that I attended.

https://www.wfmynews2.com/article/news/local/mlb-in-nc-it-struck-out-19-years-ago/83-455758206
 

Daniel_Son

Member
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May 25, 2021
1,852
San Diego
CSAs or probably MSAs are a better measure unless you think only people within the city limits would go to games. San Antonio is the 25th CSA behind Portland, Charlotte, Orlando (24th MSA). Austin isn't in a CSA but its MSA is 28th. So none are slam dunks but they probably could all support something if the conditions were right (Portland and Charlotte seem like the best to me given their wealth and the distance they'd cover -- Austin would be pretty close to Arlington which is likely why they aren't mentioned much).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combined_statistical_area

As I noted the LA and NYC areas could likely support an additional team and there should be 2 in the greater Bay Area, but the second should probably be in San Jose. Chicago could maybe have a third but Milwaukee is close.

You don't need to do this all at once but it would be nice to see some action in the direction of expansion. If the thinking is that baseball is more a regional niche game that cultivates loyal followers who drive ticket revenue instead of the National Pastime it's a little weird that MLB is shutting down minor league teams and not considering expanding its reach.
Looking at this chart makes me wonder if moving the Rays from Tampa to Orlando would be a good option. Orlando has a greater CSA pop (4,222,422) than the Tampa MSA pop (3,219,514). If building a new stadium in Tampa isn't an option, moving the team to a new stadium that's about 2 hours away wouldn't piss the local fans off as much as moving the team to Canada.
 

YTF

Member
SoSH Member
I don’t think it would have much of an impact on that league. While there are 4 Carolina League teams in the state, the only one anywhere close to Charlotte is Kannapolis which is 25 or so miles away. The other 3 are between 130 and 250 miles away.
How much worry might there be about folks staying home to watch the new, local MLB franchise on TV rather than sit in the stands for A league games? Especially with the novelty of having a team in the early years of existence and beyond that if they show to be a competitive team that contends for the playoffs.
 

Adirondack jack

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Aug 24, 2008
1,589
It's astounding that the worst of the cookie-cutter round multi-purpose stadia of the 60s/early 70s is the one still in use. The Trop's close behind, however.
Routine infield popups hitting the ceiling immediately places The Trop as the worst park in the MLB. Cookie cutter, etc.,blah -blah -- the least Major League Park is the trop until it's not.
 

Marbleheader

Moderator
Moderator
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Sep 27, 2004
11,905
Aren't most people there Braves fans now for lack of options anyway? I don't think there's a great concern for alienating Rays fans, one team in Florida is fine.
 

YTF

Member
SoSH Member
Routine infield popups hitting the ceiling immediately places The Trop as the worst park in the MLB. Cookie cutter, etc.,blah -blah -- the least Major League Park is the trop until it's not.
Yep, reminds me of playing wiffle ball in the gym when we were kids. The ground rules for those catwalk rings are akin to us assigning different hit values for each level up the bleachers that the ball landed.
 

j-man

Member
Dec 19, 2012
3,815
Arkansas
there needs to be 32 MLB Teams
1 Nashvillie NL
2 Charlotte Rays only worry is the o's think of charlotte as thiers
3 vegas/por oak
San antonio/austin 4.5 mil pop
 

jon abbey

Shanghai Warrior
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Jul 15, 2005
72,703
Rosters should go to 28 players before we get expansion teams.
 

jon abbey

Shanghai Warrior
Moderator
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Jul 15, 2005
72,703
Then we'll continue to have a parade of nameless relievers throwing 95 mph in the late innings and will see much less offense than I think most fans desire
I think you’re going to have the parade of relievers either way, but it could be mandatory 14 position players/14 pitchers. Right now those rules are suspended (as of 5/1 it will be 13 and 13), so some teams have 16 pitchers.

But most of the reason for dead offense currently is a dead ball, universal humidors for the first time but also just deader balls again. It’s insane that MLB can’t get this right.
 

Van Everyman

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Apr 30, 2009
27,717
Newton
Worth noting:

My father in law and brother in law did a trip out west to all the ballparks about 5 years ago – Seattle all the way down to San Diego. I should note that my FiL was a baseball lifer and I’ve never known anyone with a better knowledge of the history of the game. On his deathbed, he was telling my daughters how he saw Negro Leagues games and could remember every last detail.

His favorite park on that trip, by far, was the Oakland Colosseum.
 

YTF

Member
SoSH Member
Worth noting:

My father in law and brother in law did a trip out west to all the ballparks about 5 years ago – Seattle all the way down to San Diego. I should note that my FiL was a baseball lifer and I’ve never known anyone with a better knowledge of the history of the game. On his deathbed, he was telling my daughters how he saw Negro Leagues games and could remember every last detail.

His favorite park on that trip, by far, was the Oakland Colosseum.
Thanks for sharing. I think it would have to be because of his sense of the game's history. Hallowed ground in some sense due to the great teams that played there in the 70's?
 

YTF

Member
SoSH Member
Rosters should go to 28 players before we get expansion teams.
Then we'll continue to have a parade of nameless relievers throwing 95 mph in the late innings and will see much less offense than I think most fans desire
I think you’re going to have the parade of relievers either way, but it could be mandatory 14 position players/14 pitchers. Right now those rules are suspended (as of 5/1 it will be 13 and 13), so some teams have 16 pitchers.

But most of the reason for dead offense currently is a dead ball, universal humidors for the first time but also just deader balls again. It’s insane that MLB can’t get this right.
How about we split the difference? 27 man roster with a minimum of 14 position players. Keeps pitchers at 13 max per team and adds another bat/glove or more if they choose.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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Jan 23, 2009
21,591
Maine
Thanks for sharing. I think it would have to be because of his sense of the game's history. Hallowed ground in some sense due to the great teams that played there in the 70's?
I was thinking along similar lines, but maybe less the history and more the old-style game presentation? I suspect games at the Colosseum don't have the near constant distractions (loud music, big screen games, etc) or other modern amenities that make it feel as much like an amusement park as a ballpark. Dodger Stadium should have all the same type of history and "hallowed ground" vibes, but also has the modern sound and light show stuff that annoys the old-school fans.

Basically, the same sort of argument some people have when they pine for the pre-Henry/Werner days at Fenway.
 

ookami7m

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Lifetime Member
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Jul 15, 2005
5,830
Mobile, AL
Worth noting:

My father in law and brother in law did a trip out west to all the ballparks about 5 years ago – Seattle all the way down to San Diego. I should note that my FiL was a baseball lifer and I’ve never known anyone with a better knowledge of the history of the game. On his deathbed, he was telling my daughters how he saw Negro Leagues games and could remember every last detail.

His favorite park on that trip, by far, was the Oakland Colosseum.
I was thinking along similar lines, but maybe less the history and more the old-style game presentation? I suspect games at the Colosseum don't have the near constant distractions (loud music, big screen games, etc) or other modern amenities that make it feel as much like an amusement park as a ballpark. Dodger Stadium should have all the same type of history and "hallowed ground" vibes, but also has the modern sound and light show stuff that annoys the old-school fans.

Basically, the same sort of argument some people have when they pine for the pre-Henry/Werner days at Fenway.
I have been to all 5 California stadiums (Dodger and LAA once, SD twice, SF four or five and 3 at OAK) as well as Coors, Chase Field, Minute Maid, all three Braves stadiums of the last 30 years, and Fenway. Oakland isn't in the same neighborhood of the history and admitted bias of Fenway or the beautiful presentation of SD or SF or even Coors. But I'd rank LAA at least as bad as Oakland from a pure "what the stadium is" aspect and I think Dodger Stadium may be the most overrated stadium of all of them. Obviously the difference between LAA, Dodger and Oakland is the team on the field and the way the team leadership looks at how the fan experience is.

Oakland Coliseum wasn't the problem. The lack of maintenance by ownership who has wanted to leave since they got there has made the stadium an issue as they've tried to force their way into a nicer place. The location is what is is but it's super convenient to get to on BART and with some focus on fan experience (ie not jacking up ticket prices while selling off the team's players like used cars) it could and should have been sustainable.
 

YTF

Member
SoSH Member
I was thinking along similar lines, but maybe less the history and more the old-style game presentation? I suspect games at the Colosseum don't have the near constant distractions (loud music, big screen games, etc) or other modern amenities that make it feel as much like an amusement park as a ballpark. Dodger Stadium should have all the same type of history and "hallowed ground" vibes, but also has the modern sound and light show stuff that annoys the old-school fans.

Basically, the same sort of argument some people have when they pine for the pre-Henry/Werner days at Fenway.
Great minds think alike. Though I didn't mention it I did wonder about all of the "bells and whistles" that the newer parks bring that might be a departure and distraction from the game that Van Everyman's FIL loved. I have to admit that as much as I appreciate all of the advancements and improvements to Fenway in the past 20 years, there are times that I wish the experience was a bit simpler.
 

Sad Sam Jones

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May 5, 2017
2,695
Is New Orleans no longer viewed as a viable MLB market? It seems I never hear it mentioned as a candidate for expansion or relocation anymore.

In the 1970s, New Orleans courted the Indians pretty hard, but that was largely because they were constructing/recently opened the Superdome. They might have been successful if they had simply pushed for a complete relocation, but they were floating a concept of a shared team like the more recent Tampa Bay/Montreal proposal, which was never going to receive enough support from the other owners (I believe the White Sox had already played some games in Milwaukee when it was between franchises, and all it did was hurt attendance in Chicago).

Obviously the Superdome would no longer be a point of attraction, but I'm also not aware of any city already having anything close to an MLB facility just waiting to be used. I guess Charlotte and Nashville might have better football stadiums to use while a baseball stadium was being built.
 

Sandwich Pick

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Sep 9, 2017
797
Or Philadelphia? I've lived in Philly for the last 20 years and there is absolutely no sense of nostalgia that I've ever seen for the A's, but nonetheless I can't tell you how cool it would be if the Phillies had moved to KC and the AL East today was the MFY, As, Os, Blue Jays (or Rays - doesn't matter), and Red Sox.
There was a niche following of the Athletics for years. In Hatboro (about 45 minutes north) there was a Historical Society dedicated to the Philadelphia A's. Unfortunately, it closed down about a decade ago.

https://patch.com/pennsylvania/horsham/philadelphia-a-s-memorabilia-to-be-auctioned

https://www.philadelphiaathletics.org/
 

Leather

given himself a skunk spot
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Jul 18, 2005
28,451
Looking at this chart makes me wonder if moving the Rays from Tampa to Orlando would be a good option. Orlando has a greater CSA pop (4,222,422) than the Tampa MSA pop (3,219,514). If building a new stadium in Tampa isn't an option, moving the team to a new stadium that's about 2 hours away wouldn't piss the local fans off as much as moving the team to Canada.
To add to the confusion, from a marketing perspective, the relevant metric is the city's Designated Market Area. That's the area that is tied together by the same television stations. If you've ever worked in TV advertising, you judge the impact of buying a TV spot by how many eyeballs it will reach, and a big part of that is what DMA it runs in (in addition to time, etc...). So when you're talking about a team's prospective TV audience, generally you're talking about it's DMA size.

In that context, the DMAs are not quite the same as the CSAs, and Tampa ranks 11th, while Orlando ranks 18th.
 

Daniel_Son

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May 25, 2021
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San Diego
To add to the confusion, from a marketing perspective, the relevant metric is the city's Designated Market Area. That's the area that is tied together by the same television stations. If you've ever worked in TV advertising, you judge the impact of buying a TV spot by how many eyeballs it will reach, and a big part of that is what DMA it runs in (in addition to time, etc...). So when you're talking about a team's prospective TV audience, generally you're talking about it's DMA size.

In that context, the DMAs are not quite the same as the CSAs, and Tampa ranks 11th, while Orlando ranks 18th.
Interesting... would moving the team to a different DMA (Orlando) mean that they couldn't broadcast in their old DMA (Tampa)?

Orlando is the highest city on that list without a team (18), followed by Sacramento (20), Charlotte (22), Raleigh-Durham (24), and Portland (25) - so if the situation in Tampa is completely screwed and they want to move the team, Orlando would make the most sense by that metric.
 

soxhop411

news aggravator
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Dec 4, 2009
47,130
And now getting into a twitter spat with a “seagull”
View: https://twitter.com/DaveKaval/status/1519140440657735681
And you are literally a seagull.









Oracle Park Seagull 

@OracleSeagull
You are literally the president of a baseball team. You’re acting like a petulant child who got told no TV on school nights. Show a little decorum dude. Act like a grownup. View: https://twitter.com/davekaval/status/1519135667447422976
View: https://twitter.com/oracleseagull/status/1519141376297869314?s=21&t=J0y1Wbm4JHqUW37uOrGJBg
 
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