Remember deflategate tool concussions off the front page, and it has stayed off the front page. It served its purpose. HAs this happened in the 2001 post season when human bobble head Barry Bonds had just 73 hr Bud may have kept it in the news.
Astros caught cheating in Game 1?
- Thread starter RedOctober3829
- Start date
I have to think they watched Deflategate (and Spygate before that) play out and said very definitively "Let's *not* do that."
I've said for a long time that I think the NFL has had a pretty intensive culture of gamesmanship that it hasn't been able to figure out how to address in today's media environment. Do they adopt a strict "zero tolerance" policy about this stuff and make examples of cheaters? Or do they just ignore it and pretend it doesn't really exist?
I think the lesson Manfred has learned from how Goodell has handled these issues is that acting like these things are the exceptions and trying to play it out in the public sphere is a losing battle -- that the best way you handle rules violations is to very sternly but privately tell teams to cut the shit. I think that's how Tagliabue handled these things in the past (and suspect Goodell wishes he had handled that way from the beginning at this point).
If that means Houston's violation goes away, so be it. I'm not complaining.
Edit: @Noseminer beat me to it
That would be evidence if he could capture it with his camera. Most likely he just snaps a ton of high resolution pictures and someone goes through them to see if they can see anything. More of a sniffing mission perhaps
Back to sign stealing. I am reminded of a fan behind the plate being ejected last year at request of an umpire at YS3 for yelling location to Gary Sanchez in spanish. The catcher understood spanish and brought it to the umps attention
If I was a player I would have a personal buddy do the same for me. Using a code that changes by inning
You could also do something similar from CF perhaps with a sign that is only lifted for outside pitches or when fastballs called. Again, not something arranged by the team but the player does it on his own. Players move around too much to keep team secrets of this nature
Me neither. Honestly as cameras get smaller, devices more sophisticated, there is rapidly approaching a point at which you'll never be able to curtail this. Demonizing it by letting everyone gnash their teeth is silly; tell teams caught to stop, hit their pocketbook if they don't, and trust that every team is doing a version of it and cancelling one another out.
The official reason for his presence feels a little like:
But then this seems more like something to try and get in the opposing pitchers' heads instead of something that will yield some edge.
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Fuck it--why not just make it legal?Me neither. Honestly as cameras get smaller, devices more sophisticated, there is rapidly approaching a point at which you'll never be able to curtail this. Demonizing it by letting everyone gnash their teeth is silly; tell teams caught to stop, hit their pocketbook if they don't, and trust that every team is doing a version of it and cancelling one another out.
The official reason for his presence feels a little like:
But then this seems more like something to try and get in the opposing pitchers' heads instead of something that will yield some edge.
Everyone will just adjust and maybe we'll get some awesome JoePas style stories of changes in culture.
So what are the arguments against saying just let them go for it and make it part of the game?
I've always thought this. If you're communicating your intentions with coded signs, isn't already sort of implicit that everyone is trying to catch them? Get better at coding them. And if everyone's doing it, the advantage isn't much.
I've never 100% gotten the hue and cry over sign-stealing though.
Many team officials across baseball frustrated, appalled by MLB decision on Astros/spygate. They believe that Rob Manfred threatened in past to come down hard on violators of electronic surveillance rule, and now with crystal-clear evidence of HOU breaking rules, nothing happens.
"our investigation revealed that Clubs have employed various strategies to decode signs that do not violate our rules. The Red Sox' strategy violated our rules because of the use of an electronic device.
"Taking all of these factors as well as past precedent into account, I have decided to fine the Red Sox an undisclosed amount which in turn will be donated by my office to hurricane relief efforts in Florida. Moreover, all 30 Clubs have been notified that future violations of this type will be subject to more serious sanctions, including the possible loss of draft picks."
Rob Manfred
Sept. 15,2017
"Taking all of these factors as well as past precedent into account, I have decided to fine the Red Sox an undisclosed amount which in turn will be donated by my office to hurricane relief efforts in Florida. Moreover, all 30 Clubs have been notified that future violations of this type will be subject to more serious sanctions, including the possible loss of draft picks."
Rob Manfred
Sept. 15,2017
All of that seems to be ignored because the Astros were not, apparently, doing anything to cheat. Rather, prevent cheating? I guess?
Alex Speier said they haven't ruled out disciplining the Astros despite the matter being closed.
Expect a press release announcing MLB discipline decision around 4 PM on New Year's Eve.
because of the use of an electronic device.
It doesn't matter. Even if you believe that BS or not, There is no rule against trying to steal signs or spy on teams for any reason. You just can't use any electronic device to do it. And it's all a big to do about nothing anyways. I'm just pointing out when Manfred said after the Sox did it. They stop immediately, own up to it, and cooperate fully. They get fined. Astros get caught. They claim they were just making sure the Red Sox weren't doing anything. Riiiight. And they get......nothing. Which is what it should be. I mean the Sox fine went to Hurricane relief so I'm not saying they should give it back. just stay with the precedent you started and fine all teams that use an electronic device, or admit this is all no big deal and say they shouldn't have fined the Sox either. That's all.
https://www.nj.com/yankees/index.ssf/2017/09/mlb_announces_punishment_for_red_sox_yankees_in_ap.html
Edit: Add link to entire quote.
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The league offering Houston the free pass enraged executives around baseball, who reached out to Yahoo Sports trying to understand the rationale.
Anyone know anything about the Sox-MFY one?
Can we put the Patriots comparisons to bed now? After deflategate there was a Superbowl. After the accusations they crushed people. After getting caught the Astros got swept.
Having just read the Globe article about the Red Sox' hitting approach toward Houston...
Unless - they're getting pre-pitch signals (from the dugout or elsewhere) that takes the situation and feeds back the likely outcome to the hitter, well before the pitch (perhaps forcing him to step out to make things certain). Now this is not (in my view) cheating per se, unless perhaps the signals are coming from some pattern on the scoreboard. On the other hand, I'd like to think these students of the game are smart enough to remember what they need to remember.
It occurred to me that there is the the real opportunity for "cheating" (loose term). Given all that information, which changes pitch-to-pitch - you might think that every hitter would need one of those QB forearm code cards, but instead, these guys are smart enough to remember their homework...
Unless - they're getting pre-pitch signals (from the dugout or elsewhere) that takes the situation and feeds back the likely outcome to the hitter, well before the pitch (perhaps forcing him to step out to make things certain). Now this is not (in my view) cheating per se, unless perhaps the signals are coming from some pattern on the scoreboard. On the other hand, I'd like to think these students of the game are smart enough to remember what they need to remember.
This is the only choice, right? MLB has to say something; if they remained silent it would have screwed the ALCS. If they pronounced the Astros guilty in the middle of the ALCS, same result. They kicked the can down the road in order to get the focus back to the games. Nothing stopping them from dealing with it two weeks from now.
Causation and correlation are not the same thing. Kimbrel tipping pitches sounds more plausible.
That's a funny definition of "closed."
Jury: "Your honor, we find the defendant not guilty. He was only making sure no one else was committing a crime."
Judge: "The defendant is free to go and this case is closed. I reserve the right to sentence him in two weeks."
They had to say something, but they could have said it remains under investigation, and then announced an undisclosed fine sometime like the Wednesday before Thanksgiving.
It's not exactly the American judicial system. They can do whatever they want. I assume if there's another complaint -- and apparently there are a slew of them -- then they'd have plenty of pretext to revisit it. My point was that they were desperate to take it out of the headlines in the middle of the ALCS, so they did the only thing they could which would have that effect.