Bosoxen said:
Not within the spirit of the game? I really like you as a poster, both here and with regard to Mexico soccer, but quite frankly this sounds like John Harbaugh BS. What next, no play action?
Ay, There's the Rub
- Thread starter singaporesoxfan
- Start date
Not within the spirit of the game? I really like you as a poster, both here and with regard to Mexico soccer, but quite frankly this sounds like John Harbaugh BS. What next, no play action?
Byrdbrain said:
And Denver has zero. I've actually thought over the years that the Patriots are one of the worst teams in the league at executing pick plays and getting away with it. Going all the way back to the 2006 AFC championship game where Troy Brown was called for for OPI and (in my opinion) turned the tide of the game.
ESPN's business incentives do not differ between their shows and SportsCenter. That's not Edward R. Murrow up there getting guaranteed ratings for conveying the day's news without answering to the business side of the operation.E5 Yaz said:
Anyway, we're all best off ignoring ESPN, no? I realize your initial line was not meant to spark this discussion so this will be my last post about it.
If you make contact with a defender illegal then defenders are just going to run into receivers on purpose. I don't think there should be any OPI within 5 yards if the ball isn't in the air, as it's within the legal contact zone. I don't really know the best way to define it past that, but it's a pretty crowded field out there.
And run the risk of DPI? This isn't the NBA where any and all contact will result in a defensive foul. If, as you say, you see a defender run into a receiver on purpose, he most likely will get a DPI call, or illegal contact. Frankly, that's probably the reason you don't see defenders just barrel over receivers throwing those picks. There's a nonzero chance that the call would go against them.Ed Hillel said:
If the standard is any contact, it wouldn't be too difficult to fake on crossing patterns. If you're beaten anyway, may as well.
Here's the thing: Everyone should be doing this, it's just smart football. As I said earlier, when others do it, like a Manning, we hear about how brilliant it is and how it's well designed to get a receiver open. Conversely, coaches should be teaching defenders how to best defense it, whether it's switching, initiating contact at the line, whatever. If it's blatant, it gets called, if it's in the gray area, the team should be prepared. We can't make everything illegal and the rulebook more complicated than it is because some teams handle it better than others.
Here's the thing: Everyone should be doing this, it's just smart football. As I said earlier, when others do it, like a Manning, we hear about how brilliant it is and how it's well designed to get a receiver open. Conversely, coaches should be teaching defenders how to best defense it, whether it's switching, initiating contact at the line, whatever. If it's blatant, it gets called, if it's in the gray area, the team should be prepared. We can't make everything illegal and the rulebook more complicated than it is because some teams handle it better than others.
Good points Ed. I mean as someone pointed out upthread - it didn't stop an undrafted rookie from making the play of the season.
Devizier said:
That's correct. We ran trips and instituted picks when I played HS ball in the late 70's.
If they start calling the concept Amendola ran pass interference when the receiver throws up his arms and goes out of his way not to throw anything that resembles a block the games will take six hours with all the flags. Pats run a lot of those concepts, but everyon runs them. Watch the Niners fourth quarter td from last night, which is way worse and still basically never gets called.
I hope we didn't get off on a Pats cheating diversion because of something freaking Salva flagged without any links, dude isn't happy unless he's miserable, thinks he's persecuted, or can conjure up Jets upset fantasies
I hope we didn't get off on a Pats cheating diversion because of something freaking Salva flagged without any links, dude isn't happy unless he's miserable, thinks he's persecuted, or can conjure up Jets upset fantasies
ifmanis5 said:
Agree that the Steelers featured bunching up their receivers at the LOS and then running a bunch of twisty routes that were designed to get the defenders clogged up so that one of the receivers could run free.
Stitch01 said:
I think you mean Boldin's TD reception in the 3rd Q, right? #82 was blocking his defender essentially the entire play.
edit: at the 1:20m mark http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2015101111/2015/REG5/49ers@giants#menu=gameinfo%7CcontentId%3A0ap3000000555325&tab=videos
dbn said:
That's legal within 1 yard of the LOS. The initial contact was essentially one yard beyond the LOS, but then he keeps pushing into the defender. The NFL rule is Rule 8, Section 5, Article 4 - "Other Prohibited Acts by the Offense. Blocking more than one yard beyond the line of scrimmage by an offensive player prior to a pass being thrown is offensive pass interference."
So yeah, it seems pretty clear that that's OPI.
It's easy. Get in the player's way of covering the WR but don't make contact. They can't call anything unless there is contact.
At 11:28 of the third quarter, Brady hit Gronk for 18 yards. It's a rub route featuring Gronk and Edelman. Ground is wide and Edelman is in the slot. Edelman breaks right for Byron Jones, Dallas' rookie CB. But he doesn't make contact. Jones goes around him, which creates space for Brady to hit Gronk with a simple pitch and catch just a yard or two downfield. Gronk then rumbles for the remainder of the 18 yard gain. That's how you do it. That's great execution on a rub route. Legal, within a yard of the LOS, and the defender's choice really opened up the play for a big gain.
What's interesting is that it's patently obvious that Edelman's only job on the play is to pick Jones. He never turns around to look for a pass from Brady. At the snap he bolts right for Jones and gets in the way, never even coming close to making it look like he's running a real route.
What's interesting is that it's patently obvious that Edelman's only job on the play is to pick Jones. He never turns around to look for a pass from Brady. At the snap he bolts right for Jones and gets in the way, never even coming close to making it look like he's running a real route.
Part of the Pats's OPI woes are that Gronk is big and strong, and when he commits it during his own route (i.e. Not a pick play) the defender tends to leave the camera view.
The other problem Gronk gets the Shaq treatment from defenders and refs. Defenders are given more leeway on contact with him and his retaliation to fight for space looks much worse because of his superior size.Myt1 said:
I don't see any way to change it into a more black and white penalty call. The ref is always going to have to guess as to what intent was of the players involved in rub routes/pick plays. The rule can also be exploited if you decide to make it even more black and white penalty call.
It's a nasty gray area that doesn't really have any good solution.
It's a nasty gray area that doesn't really have any good solution.
While there have been some obvious ones where the receivers just executed poorly, it seems to me that there have also been a lot of borderline calls on plays that appear identical to ones that other teams get away with. My theory, based purely on conjecture, is that other teams make a point of bringing this play up to the refs before Pats games so there'll be a heightened sense of vigilance - similar to Rex and the Jets "tipping off" the refs about the Pats getting an extra push on FG attempts a couple seasons ago, resulting in a game-changing penalty being called for something that previously hadn't been a point of emphasis.Byrdbrain said:
Belichick talked about OPI in a press conference: http://itiswhatitis.weei.com/sports/newengland/football/patriots/2015/10/12/bill-belichick-on-dh-nfl-officials-emphasizing-calling-offensive-pick-plays-more-this-season/
Was re-watching the game and one play made me realize how silly this discussion is. 3rd quarter, Pats up 20-3, Dallas driving inside the red zone. 3rd and 4 from about the 10. Dallas runs a rub/pick with Terrence Williams and Witten to free Witten up on an out pattern to pick up the first down. Except the Pats defense it by jamming up Williams and McCourty darts in to tackle Witten after only a two yard gain.
Not unlike the Super Bowl, if you play good defense, it is not "unstoppable" or "unfair".
Not unlike the Super Bowl, if you play good defense, it is not "unstoppable" or "unfair".
The most recent (Giants game) call was legit - he was more than 5 yards downfield. I've seen it not called more than it is called, but I've also seen a shitload of jaywalking and only one person ticketed for it.
The issue with the rules in the NFL is that they're almost perfectly calculated to be applied arbitrarily. You could have the exact same play called in two diametrically opposed ways and the color guy would be bobble-heading along with what a good call each was.
Head on over to the Port Cellar, and you could post the same thing with a different acronym. Gazza too, for that matter. You tell me if it's true in the NHL as well.
I know that for the Lawful Neutral, the arbitrary application of rules is the most frustrating aspect of sports. There is offensive holding on nearly every play, or a block in the back on every punt/kick return, or defensive holding/OPI on every pass play. If officials called everything by the book, Ed Hochuli would be the NFL's biggest star.
I know that for the Lawful Neutral, the arbitrary application of rules is the most frustrating aspect of sports. There is offensive holding on nearly every play, or a block in the back on every punt/kick return, or defensive holding/OPI on every pass play. If officials called everything by the book, Ed Hochuli would be the NFL's biggest star.