BOS bullpen 2018
- Thread starter Hank Scorpio
- Start date
Not pointing a finger at you, this thought has been raised a few times between the game thread and here.
Isn't it management's job to have a competent lefty in the pen? If they haven't any confidence in Poyner, shouldn't they have had someone available that they did trust? And if they trust Poyner, why not put him out there? Sure, opening days attract attention - heck, they even sold out in Montreal - but seriously, wtf with 'he's okay to be in the bullpen, but we need to find a different lefty-needed situation to bring him into'?
So, if Spann hit a liner to Betts, does this thread happen?
If the strike zone was consistent, does this thread happen?
Chris Sale walked 3 and only lasted 6 innings. Is he a tree that fell in the forest?
Nunez hit an inside the Parker. Betts smashed the first pitch. I had fun watching.
Let’s give the bullpen a couple of weeks before freaking. It seems like every opening day since Bill Campbell that the bullpen has blown a lead.
If the strike zone was consistent, does this thread happen?
Chris Sale walked 3 and only lasted 6 innings. Is he a tree that fell in the forest?
Nunez hit an inside the Parker. Betts smashed the first pitch. I had fun watching.
Let’s give the bullpen a couple of weeks before freaking. It seems like every opening day since Bill Campbell that the bullpen has blown a lead.
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Are you familiar with the strategy of easing in starting pitchers and Sales workload plans specifically?
I think there would be a lot less panic if the Yankees didn’t have such a great game today, with Stanton picking up right where he left off. It’s a long season, I’m not ready to write off Carson just yet. But god I hope Thornburg comes back healthy and good so joe Kelly never pitches an eight inning again
I was there, at the Trop. It was brutally obvious that Joe Kelly had no clue how to throw stikes. It took Cora way too long to accept this fact, When he finally went to Carson Smith, while Smith imploded Cora had no one warming up. If Cora's MO is going to be a painfully slow hook, 2018 is going to be Grady Little redux.
I made the trip over as well (sat right behind the Sox bullpen too). Brutal and frustrating game out of Cora, but overall I'm willing to give him the very first meaningful look pass on wanting to trust his guy/s.
"They" have enough in Poyner to have him on the team. Maybe Cora thought that hi-lev 8th inning on Opening Day wasn't ideal for a rookie. Or maybe Cora is just another stupid f'n idiot with his head up his ass hired by a team of stupud f'n idiots. One or the other.
Kelly struck out the 2nd hitter with 3 strikes looking after ball 2. Probably no reason to get anyone up just yet. Didn't Smith get up after the double? Seems about right. Smith also struck out his second guy on 3 pitches. I thought he had gotten it together at that point. Why should someone be warming up there?
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Can't really blame Cora. They had a 4 run lead when Kelly came in, and it's not unreasonable to expect Smith to do better than give up a triple. And, yes, I realize that spring training stats are supposed to be ignored, but Kelly had 12 K's against 2 walks in 8 innings pitched, and Smith had 12 and 4 in 9 innings.
Not on Cora. If he gets Kelly a batter sooner, Smith just shits the bed a batter sooner. A manager should have a reasonable expectation for those two to protect a 4 run lead with 6 outs to get. And there’s no scenario where he goes to Kimbrel for more than 3 outs on Opening Day.
I'd like to see the pitch f/x but it sure looked like Kelly threw a lot more strikes than what he was credited for. I mean that may completely change things if the ump calls balls and strikes in the bottom of the 8th like he had all game long.
Joe Kelly needs to find happiness in the long relief or spot starter role, mopping up messes. He's physically capable (but who isn't at the major league level) to be decent or great, but he's an unpredictable head case. He's trying too hard to prove himself constantly. He's got 6 major league season under his belt and hasn't figured his shit out yet, so I think it's safe to say he never will. I think he will serve best when the game isn't on the line or hopefully keeping the lead from expanding.
Yea Kelly is an ok 7th inning guy but no more than that. I’d love to blame the yanks success on their ability to outspend everyone but cash man has just outgmed us. Those Sandoval and Ramirez signings really hamstrung our ability to go get bp help. Here is hoping that price returns to form, a lot of our future depends on him
One game? Barnes looked good. If we’re going to make decisions on Kelly at this point, then Barnes should be our new closer
In the game thread I whined about how many times it seems the bullpen has blown an opening day game. I particularly recalled Soup Campbell's blown save.
So, I walked myself through every opening day from 1977 on. Here's the list of pain that some of us can share:
BLOWN SAVES OR LOSSES - Opening Day
1977 Campbell
1978 Drago
1980 Drago
1981 Stanley
1984 Stanley
1988 Lee Smith
1989 Stanley
then some nice calm interludes, until...
2011 Bard
2012 Melancon
Those 12 years from 77 to 89 were remarkable. 7 opening day bullpen blow ups.
So, I walked myself through every opening day from 1977 on. Here's the list of pain that some of us can share:
BLOWN SAVES OR LOSSES - Opening Day
1977 Campbell
1978 Drago
1980 Drago
1981 Stanley
1984 Stanley
1988 Lee Smith
1989 Stanley
then some nice calm interludes, until...
2011 Bard
2012 Melancon
Those 12 years from 77 to 89 were remarkable. 7 opening day bullpen blow ups.
What about 2003 at the Trop? The death stroke of the "closer by committee" experiment before it ever really got off the ground.
I'm convinced that the trauma inflicted by that game on Grady Little is what ultimately led to his gaffe in Game 7. And by trauma, I mean panicked overreaction to one game and one bad outing.
I was at that game and game 2 that went 16 before Millar homered. It’s remarkable how that season was bookended by spectacular bullpen failures. Was it Chad Fox that Crawford walked off?
I think getting Pom and EdRo back will really help the bullpen, because I think Brian Johnson is going to excel out there. he's figured out his control and is throwing really well. That will help this pen, and not just the short on lefties situation. Carson Smith is not going to suck all year. Joe Kelly, you guys, was really good last year. Not an all star, not the best, but really good. Barnes held his own, Hembree held his own. And we have the best closer in the league if you ask me. But circumstances all pointed to needing Smith and Kelly to do what they do yesterday, and they didn't. It's one game. It happens. But you don't toss a plan for the whole season out the window because two guys have shit openers. I would have thrown a fit if Kimbrel got trotted out there in the middle of the 8th after having the most tumultuous spring of his life. This bullpen will not be stellar, but it'll be good, and most days, that will be good enough. Come the deadline, they can try to get help if they need it. But most likely, everything evens out.
Ian BrowneVerified account @IanMBrowne 1h1 hour ago
Dave Dombrowski just said on WEEI the Red Sox are maybe a month from getting Tyler Thornburg.
Bullpens are fickle year to year. Someone else may need to emerge as the setup guy. We have no idea what we will get out of Thornburg. Good relievers in July are going to command a king’s ransom.
I think you meant “2003 World Champion Florida Marlins Closer Chad Fox.” And yes, it was him.
The Sox are projected to outspend the NYY by $55m this year, and I don't think you can completely hang the reason DD didn't decide to improve the bullpen on those Sandoval/Ramirez contracts when there was money still being spent in other areas. It's not like we concluded the winter positioned even remotely comfortable under a looming second tier LT concern either.
Standing pat and not replacing Reed may indeed have been a defensible decision, but the legitimate flip side concern that we made that trade for Reed last year for the same exact reason we would now need to make it again isn't exactly coming out of overreaction left field atm. Not everybody was putting the same amount of rosy spin on the projected outlook regarding guys like Smith/Kelly/Thornburg and the fair amount of arguable overachieving that went into last year's success story total. Kelly in particular was called out by more then a few posters here over the winter as a step up in responsibility disappointment waiting to happen.
Drellich said last night in an article that the front office this spring discussed signing Greg Holland but didn't want to go above the $237 threshold. If they've spent this much money and let a dominant arm walk past them(pun not intended) because of money that is rather frustrating. I know it came with draft pick penalties too, but do you want to win the World Series or not? That pen is not good enough as currently constructed to win a WS and they'll end up spending money and picks to fix it in July but only after they blow more winnable games that may hurt their chances at a division title.
That WEEI interview today with DD is worth a listen. While he acknowledged a desire to not go over the spending line, he maintained it was more a matter of already having on hand so many guys who can do the job. The statement about Thornburg in a month seemed foolish (and probably unfair to the player) to me.
Well the Cardinals just signed Holland for $14mil this morning. So he's off the board. Is that a price DD would have been willing to spend? I don't know for sure. But we also don't know if he would have won yesterday's game. There's 161 games left, so everyone should pump the brakes a bit. Kelly was probably a bit nervous yesterday, so we can only hope that he turns it around.
Before we jump on DD, we should at least acknowledge that the 2018 Red Sox bullpen is a lot more than Joe Kelly. Let's see how the others perform before we declare this season's bullpen a failure. As for Smith, he was a very good pitcher before he got hurt, looked good in limited duty late last season, and is now 2 years past his TJ surgery. He looked really good this spring (as did Kelly), so let's give him more than one appearance before declaring the Carson Smith experiment a failure.
I can also tell you that a huge majority of the posters here would be upset of the Sox jumped the LT threshold just to bring in a middle reliever. And it is DD 's job to manage both the present and the future, and so I can see where he made the assessment that none of the relievers on the market were worth sacrificing draft picks and bonus pool money over.
It's also laughable that to declare that the Sandoval contract didn't handcuff Dombrowski this year. If it wasn't for that contract, the 2nd paragraph of this post would not have applied at all.
The silver lining is that bullpen help is typically available at the trade deadline. And if Joe Kelly being ineffective sinks this team, then this team just isn't that good to begin with.
I can also tell you that a huge majority of the posters here would be upset of the Sox jumped the LT threshold just to bring in a middle reliever. And it is DD 's job to manage both the present and the future, and so I can see where he made the assessment that none of the relievers on the market were worth sacrificing draft picks and bonus pool money over.
It's also laughable that to declare that the Sandoval contract didn't handcuff Dombrowski this year. If it wasn't for that contract, the 2nd paragraph of this post would not have applied at all.
The silver lining is that bullpen help is typically available at the trade deadline. And if Joe Kelly being ineffective sinks this team, then this team just isn't that good to begin with.
You do realize DD didn't have a gun to his on every financial decision he made this winter, and that the staying under the second tier LT possibility over a full season while already sitting at a projected $235m+ (COTS) is probably looking like a bad bet in reality at this point, right?
That said, Holland certainly wasn't an answer here even without the LT concern imo. That he got $14m is surprising enough, before even going into the picks or second half stuff.
Kelly needs to stop focusing on being the team clown and worry about how to get hitters out first.
So you believe that while on the mound, he disregards the situation and batter, and throws poorly because his mind is on future clownery he may engage in?
Or that instead of spending the normal number of hours practicing and training, say 2-3, and spending the other 13-14 waking hours devising funny things to say or do, he is cutting down those hours somehow to do his planning?
Or do you believe that he should just throw all day, every day and have no time to think of humorous activities, because human bodies have an infinite ability to recover?
I think he he pitches poorly because he lacks movement and location. And I don't know that practicing more will change that unless somebody figures out some sort of euraka moment about his mechanics and he can successfully change them.
His stats looked good or he passed the eye test? I didn't catch any ST games, so I'm looking for a silver lining here after his blow up last night.
Silver lining?
How about for the entirety of his career he's been really good? That it was just one game, and he was thrust quickly into a shitty situation that most relievers aren't going to get out of unscathed?
The handwringing over one bad inning here is unreal. Joe Kelly is unfit for this pen. DD failed not signing a lefty. Smith can't be relied on for the 8th inning. We're gonna have to trade assets we don't have for help in July. We should've burned 14 mil on Holland. Are you guys serious?
Can we at least get some respectable in-season sample sizes before we start jumping to conclusions? The season is long. ST performances and stats don't matter and never have, and one game isn't predicative of anything.
Good point. Its hard to get a good push off the rubber with those floppy shoes.
The entirety of his MLB career is 91 innings. 91. The fact that he was great three years ago and one TJ surgery ago really isn't doing much for me.
Sorry for asking for a report on how he looked during ST on a baseball message board. If he was hitting his spots with his fastball and snapping off nasty sliders then great. If he was dominating ST fodder with slop then that's a different story, no? Yeesh.
Sorry for asking for a report on how he looked during ST on a baseball message board. If he was hitting his spots with his fastball and snapping off nasty sliders then great. If he was dominating ST fodder with slop then that's a different story, no? Yeesh.
And your overreaction to one appearance while ignoring the context of the situation isn't doing much for me.
Sorry for telling you that one appearance doesn't matter on a baseball message board. Yeesh.
While I agree with your general point that there is a gross overreaction to 1 game happening here, I think this one post is not an example of such.
Some of us don't get to watch a lot of games or ST, so a poster asking for some feedback from the other posters here is a reasonable ask. Many of us respect the opinions and knowledge of other posters on this board so to ask the other guys how a pitcher looked in ST w regards to location, velocity, movement, etc. Seems to be a good and reasonable post.
Let's all just pump the brakes a little but. Yesterday sucked and the bullpen is one of the top concerns for everybody who follows the Sox but that doesn't necessarily mean the bullpen is already deemed to be terrible based on yesterday's game. It bares watching and if it doesn't look to be sufficient then DD is going to have to strengthen it
Yes, DD is hamstrung by contracts he didn't sign, but he also made his choice on how to spend what he did have. For what Mitch Moreland is making this year, the Sox could have signed Tony Watson and Lucas Duda (Moreland got 2/$13M, Watson 2/$6.5M plus a $2.5M player option, and Duda 1/$3.5M).
I hope Dave is right on the decision he made, and if Pomeranz and E-Rod are healthy and back soon, Johnson could be a good lefty in the pen.
I also hope Smith just had a bad day yesterday, but he didn't appear to have any life on the ball at all. It wouldn't kill him to be in better shape.
Ian BrowneVerified account @IanMBrowneAlex Cora said he will soon advance the discussion with Craig Kimbrel on more non-traditional usage patterns.
5:24 PM - 30 Mar 2018
That's TMI to the press. How about talking to the player before you tell the media.?
Alex Cora said he will soon advance the discussion with Craig Kimbrel on more non-traditional usage patterns.
5:24 PM - 30 Mar 2018
Addendum: Never mind, I forgot to ignore Twutter.
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He mentioned it before earlier in spring training. Not 100% sure with Kimbrel, but I would doubt it hasn't been communicated to him.
I actually don't mind him saying it to the media since it would make him look like a bad teammate if he is resistant to it. It is the most effective way to use your best pitcher and he needs to get on board with it regardless of his contract status.
