Brooks Kieschnick -- why not more guys like him?

CaptainLaddie

dj paul pfieffer
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where the darn libs live
For those who don't remember, Brooks Kieschnick last appeared in a major league game 11 years ago, for the Brewers.  He was a bust of a first-round pick, and while he never became an everyday player, he did serve one purpose: an average pitcher who could actually hit.  See, Kieschnick was drafted as a hitter, someone who was thought to have some of the best power in that 1993 draft.  But he mostly flamed out at that, hitting just .220/.297/.405 in 28 games from 1996-2001 in the major with three teams.
 
It wasn't until he went to Milwaukee, where he was given a chance to pitch -- something he was very good at in college at Texas.  In his two years with Milwaukee, he posted these lines:
 
Hitting: .286/.340/.496 over 147 games and 144 PA -- good for an OPS+ of 115.  Basically he was a terrific pinch hitter in 2003 who started 10 games in the field and a below average hitting in 2004 (OPS+ of 78).
Pitching: 4.59 ERA (95 ERA+) over 74 games and 96 innings, a 67:26 K:BB ratio, and a 1.417 WHIP.
 
Was he great at either?  No.  Was he competent?  I'd say he was competent enough.  You're going to have guys who put up an OPS+ of 78 and an ERA+ of 95 on your roster most years, so why not just.... combine them?  In todays numbers, that's like having Mike Napoli and Steven Wright be one guy.  Is that a good thing?  I mean, you're saving a roster spot right there.
 
In 2005, he ended up with the Astros, who never let him get back to the bigs, but at AAA that year he hit .304/.407/.543 in 59 games and 54 PA -- but a 5.72 ERA in 45 games pitching.  He was not good at pitching that year, but he ripped the cover off the ball (at age 33, mind you).
 
Anyway, I've always wondered why there aren't more guys like him -- guys who can pitch decently enough, not enough to be a starter, but someone who can come and give you middle relief innings -- but can then actually hit a lick.  I understand that it's two very different skills to be good at, but think of it this way: we've seen a good number of pitchers who CAN hit over the last 20 years: Mike Hampton, Carlos Zambrano, Dontrelle Willis, Zach Greinke, Micah Owings, Jason Marquis (never mind Rick Ankiel) -- all of these guys could actually hit the ball decently.  Isn't it possible their careers could have been extended a bit longer by pinch hitting for a season and not playing the field like BK did in 2004?  And what about hitters who can actually throw a pitch or two?  We don't see this nearly as often, but there are definitely a few guys out there who have talent on the mound, guys who pitched a lot in college but moved to hitting exclusively at the professional level (ahem, Casey Kelly).
 
Just spitballing here.
 

mt8thsw9th

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I've always wondered why the Red Sox didn't leverage Dave McCarty's ability a little bit more. He wasn't bad at all in his (small sample) time as a LHR.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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I don't know if I'd consider any of the "good" hitting pitchers of the last 20 years good enough that I'd want them pinch hitting all that much.  Dontrelle Willis had a career slash line of .244/.287/.378 in 447 PA.  Carlos Zambrano hit .238/.248/.388 in 744 PA.  Zack Greinke is at .209/.255/.312 in 310 PA.  Maybe you feel comfortable pinch hitting them for someone like Sandy Leon, but that's about it.
 
The trouble is identifying the guys with the potential to be a Kieschnick or even a Dave McCarty early enough to cultivate both skills professionally.  By and large, every player who makes it to the big leagues (and a lot that don't) start out as the guys who were simultaneously the best pitcher and best hitter on their Little League team, and then their high school team, or often even their college team.  Therefore they all show that potential to be a two way player.  Rarely do they ever get past A-ball trying to continue to do both, and I doubt that's only because teams don't let them try to do both.  At some point, the need to excel in one aspect of the game over another is necessary to move up the ranks.
 
I think it's the same reason we don't see more players able to do what Brock Holt is doing now (playing multiple defensive positions competently AND being a productive starter-caliber hitter).  Competition is so fierce that specialization is almost a must to get to the highest level.
 

LoweTek

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A name I haven't heard in a long time. I held season tickets to the Orlando Cubs where he played his original AA ball (alongside Doug Glanville, among others). It was a terrible team finishing 19 games under .500.They gave season ticket holders a team autographed ball after the 1994 season. He's on there.
 
Of 41 players who appeared for the team, 17 eventually appeared in the Major Leagues. Seems like a lot.
 
IIRC the Red Sox used a pitcher named Gary Peters as a PH many times in the early 70's. Checking, he hit .271/.294/.406 in 107 plate appearances in '71.
 
Earl Wilson did some PH too. Had a .466 SLG in 83 PAs in '64.
 
 

DJnVa

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Dec 16, 2010
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Micah Owings. B-ref lists his positions as pitcher and pinch hitter.
 
ERA+ of 91 over nearly 500 innings, 106 OPS+ as a hitter over 200 ABs, 9 career dingers. Lifetime slugging of .502.
 

mt8thsw9th

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DrewDawg said:
Micah Owings. B-ref lists his positions as pitcher and pinch hitter.
 
ERA+ of 91 over nearly 500 innings, 106 OPS+ as a hitter over 200 ABs, 9 career dingers. Lifetime slugging of .502.
 
Some considered Owings as a better position player than pitcher coming out of college (though scouts thought his demeanor was better suited for pitching). He put up a 1.189 OPS his Junior year.
 

8. MICAH OWINGS, rhp/1b (National rank: 142) 
School: Tulane. 
Hometown: Gainesville, Ga. 
B-T: R-R. Ht.: 6-5. Wt.: 225. Birthdate: Sept. 28, 1982. 
Previously Drafted: Cubs 2004 (19). 
Scouting Report: Owings has been through the draft twice before. Though he hit 69 homers in high school, fourth all-time in national prep history, the Rockies made him a second-round pick as a righthander in 2002. He opted instead to attend Georgia Tech, where he continued to star as a two-way player for two seasons. Draft-eligible as a sophomore last season, he slipped to the Cubs in the 19th round because of signability concerns. Owings was the Conference USA player of the year this spring after transferring to Tulane, where he has been the club's leader in both homers (16) and pitching strikeouts (117 in 107 innings). Clubs continue to prefer him as a pitcher. His aggressive approach plays better on the mound than at the plate, where he's prone to strikeouts and causes scouts to question how he'd fare against better pitching. He goes right after hitters on the mound with an 89-91 mph fastball that tops out at 95 and a changeup that can be a plus pitch at times. His ability to throw strikes (his 117-17 strikeout-walk ratio is the fourth-best in NCAA Division I) is another asset. Owings throws a below-average slider and may have to scrap it for a cutter. He doesn't have a dominant out pitch and projects more as a set-up man with a bulldog attitude.
 
 
 

CaptainLaddie

dj paul pfieffer
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where the darn libs live
Kieschnick's college stats are kinda wild -- 1.148 OPS in 179 games and 658 AB, with 43 HR and 215 RBI AND he went 34-8 in 63 games (48 starts), 17 CG, 345 IP, a 3.05 ERA and a WHIP of 1.20.  No the WHIP isn't great, but those numbers in tandem are bananas.
 

veritas

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I think RedHawksFan is right, most players spend a ton of time and effort at their primary job for a while in the minors just to get to the big show, and they want to get there as fast as possible. Hell, most guys in the minors work really hard for a really long time at one thing and never get to the majors. Time spent working on not their primary position is going to be detrimental to their development, not to mention a significant injury risk.
 
If you have a position player who could be a half decent low leverage reliever and give you a decent amount of IP a year, he's going to have to do a lot of extra throwing. You figure 40 IP plus a handful of bullpen sessions during the season to try to stay sharp. That's on top of the throwing the player does as a position player. That isn't all high stress throwing, but it's a ton of volume. If you play 9 innings, you're throwing before the game, between every inning to try and keep warm. Plus a few max effort throws during the course of play that are generally hurried, with bad mechanics, and often without your arm being fully warmed up. There are plenty of position players who have arm problems just from the throwing they do as a position player. A 1B/DH type would seem to be ideal for the role, but how many of them have great arms?
 
But it is a good question and I'm surprised there haven't been a few more of them, especially guys later in their careers who have always been able to throw hard and have a half decent breaking pitch. I'm sure there are a fair number of players who could turn themselves into a not terribly far below replacement lefty specialist with some consistent practice
 

Just a bit outside

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Eddie Jurak said:
Trey Ball.  (hopefully not)
That was my first thought as well.

I do think someone who can hit ok and pitch ok would be a benefit in the NL. If your long man could hit a little it may help when you need to change early in games.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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veritas said:
But it is a good question and I'm surprised there haven't been a few more of them, especially guys later in their careers who have always been able to throw hard and have a half decent breaking pitch. I'm sure there are a fair number of players who could turn themselves into a not terribly far below replacement lefty specialist with some consistent practice
 
Well, we know there are failed positional players that transition to the mound in the minors.  Tim Wakefield being a good example, though the knuckleball isn't so common.  Joe Nathan was drafted as a shortstop.  Who can forget Ron Mahay, who made it to the Red Sox as an outfielder in 1995 only to go back to the minors and came back and made a career out of being a lefty specialist.
 
I think there haven't been more because often times, it isn't until the player really hits the skids that they even attempt a position change.  By the time they commit to doing it to save/revitalize their career, their team is no longer committed to them.  Unless they are drafted/signed as a two-way player (like a Casey Kelly) and reverse course after going down one path over the other, the opportunity to change position and be successful at it takes a leap of faith by the team that employs them whether it's their original team or a new one.
 

singaporesoxfan

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The ideal player for this scenario is someone who might not be good enough to make it to the majors based solely on either his pitching or hitting skills, but has some value on the roster because the combination gives him something like extreme positional flexibility.
 

FanSinceBoggs

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Who can forget former Red Sox great, Tim Lollar:
 
Lollar was considered a particularly good hitter for a pitcher, being asked to occasionally pinch-hit, and hitting eight career home runs in four seasons in the National League. He was even called upon to pinch-hit for position players twice while with the American League Red Sox. The first was on August 13, 1985, when he pinch hit for shortstop Jackie Gutiérrez, popping out to third base.[2] The second was on August 12, 1986. Lollar pinch-hit for shortstop Rey Quiñones with two out in the 9th and the tying run on first base. Despite not having batted in a major league game in nearly a year, Lollar singled off Kansas City Royals closer Dan Quisenberry. Unfortunately for the Red Sox, the next batter, Wade Boggs, grounded out to end the game.[3] 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Lollar
 
 

Plympton91

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I was thinking about a similar thin recently, which dovetaa nicely with the observation of these guys needing to focus 110 percent on their primary job. Thinking back to the Red Sox development of Casey Kelly. They had him pitch up to his innings limit, then let him be a position player for August and in the AFL. Seems to me like that would be a good thing for any NL team to do with top pitching prospects. A starter is going to get 100 PA in a year, so if getting them 300-400 AB while they're in the low minors on innings limits can take them from a 350 OPS to a 550 OPS, wouldn't that be worth it? Then maybe you'd see a few more guys like. Brooks K.
 

BoredViewer

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I've wondered the opposite.
 
I remember a guy like Nick Green that was obviously going to be a career backup infielder/utility guy... but he had a very strong arm and could throw in the low 90's.  Why not spend some time and work on pitching?  You don't have to ever be 'good' - but a guy that could throw strikes might get 10-12 IP per year of "mop up/save the other guys" work and add some more value as a player.
 
I remember the one time Green got on the mound for the Sox, he looked annoyed and didn't appear to take it that seriously... it annoyed me.