Bud Norris to Latinos: respect the game
- Thread starter soxhop411
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At least he's out in the open about being a racist.
Seriously? "Our American dollars". Good lord.
Seriously? "Our American dollars". Good lord.
In context, he was asked about on field behavior, and how guys can break the unwritten rules. He specifically mentioned Carlos Gomez, and then went into what was posted above.
Context is important. It's not like Bud Norris sought out a reporter and was like "let me tell you something about Latino ballplayers, man..."
I find two things wrong with Norris' blurb, and I don't feel it's racist in the least.
1: the whole "making our American dollars" thing is kind of irrelevant to the point...
2: "things we don't agree with" sounds divisive if read out of context
Context is important. It's not like Bud Norris sought out a reporter and was like "let me tell you something about Latino ballplayers, man..."
I find two things wrong with Norris' blurb, and I don't feel it's racist in the least.
1: the whole "making our American dollars" thing is kind of irrelevant to the point...
2: "things we don't agree with" sounds divisive if read out of context
MLB would be like middle school baseball level entertaining without Latino players. They are why shitty players like Bud Norris get to make millions.
I'll assume that he's just a moron, not a racist. What country is Bryce Harper from?Hank Scorpio said:
I think 1 and 2 *are* part of the context. Especially 1. This isn't Bud's game, or "America's game" to decide who and who can't play.
"We’re opening this game to everyone that can play. "
(Jacke Robinson's corpse finds this reassuring.)
"when told that the large majority of incidents involved players of different backgrounds, Norris nodded knowingly," "Those more versed in the dangers of small sample sizes and the ignorance of those who want to generate headlines by conflating correlation with causation simply shook their heads and walked away."
I would like to hear what Brandon McCarthy thinks or Brian Bannister.
Latinos will save baseball from being a niche form of entertainment like hockey.
From what I see from the next generation (including my own sons) - they could care less about this sport.
From what I see from the next generation (including my own sons) - they could care less about this sport.
The author was using limited data to push a dubious hypothesis -- does anyone think Yordano Ventura would hesitate to plunk a fellow Latino? He needed a juicy quote to pull it together. Bud Norris obliged.
Norris is an idiot, but he'll get more than his just desserts for that. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if this ends up being career-ending -- who needs a middle reliever whose presence in the clubhouse is bound to cause friction? What he said wasn't John Rocker-level offensive, but Norris's talent is Rocker-level either.
Norris is an idiot, but he'll get more than his just desserts for that. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if this ends up being career-ending -- who needs a middle reliever whose presence in the clubhouse is bound to cause friction? What he said wasn't John Rocker-level offensive, but Norris's talent is Rocker-level either.
soxhop411 said:
Thank goodness Bud Norris
Edit: forgot Norris was DFA'd by BAL
Christ, I hope Ortiz homers off this guy and throws a stack of cash in the air before he rounds the bases.
He also pitches for the Padres, and I'm not sure a player for any California team can get away with that one.
The specific subject is dubious, but I think the wider subject bears discussion. There certainly seems to be a white guys vs. everybody else on how much fun you're allowed to show while playing baseball. I am curious how this feeds into the discussions about how baseball is boring - do a lot of people get turned off by "DON'T SHOW ME UP, ACT LIKE YOU'VE BEEN THERE BEFORE" or is it right behind the availability of vegetarian hot dogs at every concession in reasons people don't like baseball.
The specific subject is dubious, but I think the wider subject bears discussion. There certainly seems to be a white guys vs. everybody else on how much fun you're allowed to show while playing baseball. I am curious how this feeds into the discussions about how baseball is boring - do a lot of people get turned off by "DON'T SHOW ME UP, ACT LIKE YOU'VE BEEN THERE BEFORE" or is it right behind the availability of vegetarian hot dogs at every concession in reasons people don't like baseball.
Hank Scorpio said:
I don't know Bud Norris and don't know what is in his heart. Having said that, the fact that he did not search our the reporter to spout garbage does not clear him.
I'm curious about your reasoning, because you have highlighted two of the most offensive things Norris stated and are seemingly trying to explain them away by saying they are (1) kind of irrelevant, and (2) out of context. The reality is that those two items are breathtakingly xenophobic and context has nothing to do with it.
Spacemans Bong said:
Right. is he next going to tell the fans how to behave as well?
Is it white vs everyone else, or is it more age-related? Does Blake Swihart care differently than Ryan Hanigan how Carlos Correa celebrates homeruns.
Would MadBum have thrown at Paul O'Neil for losing his shit after popping out?
The NFL has managed to find something of a balance by differentiating between celebrating and taunting. Of course the NFL can dock you 15 yards for doing it wrong, while MLB only has chin music. But to me, that's the difference, and I think most players get it -- there's celebrating, which is Ok, and there's taunting, which isn't.
joe dokes said:
This is where it's difficult not to see a racial element to a lot of the criticism of players who express themselves on the field.
From a fan's standpoint, I always got a kick out of O'Neil because he was unintentionally amusing. But given the comments in that article, one would think that O'Neil would have been one of the most hated players in the game, because he was always more concerned about himself than anyone else and his actions could have easily been interpreted as showing up the competition. Yet O'Neil is something of a beloved figure who was seen as a "fiery competitor" during his playing days while Carlos Gomez or Yasiel Puig are seen as players who are "trying to show me up out there."
Not hard to do that math.
Average Reds said:
What would the reaction be if Puig ran to first like Pete Rose after a walk?
This is one place where Norris (unintentionally, probably) might have stumbled into something close to right. Maybe it's not so much "racial," as "cultural" (which is somewhat less incendiary, as culture could include both youth and ethnicity/upbringing). That's why I mentioned age. The Papelbon-Harper thing might be reflective of that. But Norris's "this is our game" was pretty scummy.
Also, what would Torii Hunter do?
A more serious article might have pointed out that Americans playing baseball in Japan have to make adjustments.
And then there's this guy:
Good point by Bud. It takes a white American to really not run out a pop up in keeping with the proper respect for the game.
Keith Law with the simplest and best take on Bud Norris...
keithlaw @keithlaw
my guest on this week's episode of "Playing Baseball the White Way" is pitcher Bud Norris
keithlaw @keithlaw
my guest on this week's episode of "Playing Baseball the White Way" is pitcher Bud Norris
Bad racist pitchers are still bad pitchers. I'm surprised he didn't accuse Latinos of takin 'Merican Jerbs.
I would hope that SD would DFA, or at least suspend, Norris for the rest of the year. Almost 30% of San Diegans are Latino/Hispanic, so that's a good way to (hopefully) piss off the fan base.
I would hope that SD would DFA, or at least suspend, Norris for the rest of the year. Almost 30% of San Diegans are Latino/Hispanic, so that's a good way to (hopefully) piss off the fan base.
I still cover high school sports for the Pawtucket Times. According to a teacher I know, Shea High is about 70 percent Cape Verdean and 15 percent Latino. One of my favorite moments occurs before a game when the players stand at attention and a young female student takes the microphone and sings a heart-felt rendition of the national anthem. Ours. It makes me happy to see those kids show such respect for their country. And they play a beautiful brand of soccer, too.
Hank Scorpio said:
This is completely fucking insane.
Your argument is that it's 'not racist in the least' because the reporter asked him first?
Reporter: Hey, racist guy, here's a loaded racist question.
Racist guy: Hey thanks for the question, people from latin america are lazy and take our jobs.
Hank Scorpio - NOT RACIST! HE WAS ONLY ANSWERING AN HONEST MURCAN QUESTION
joe dokes said:
I'd be interested to hear more about your sense of the article's statistical dimension.
No, see, you forget he was asked a question.
Nothing we say matters if we were asked a question first.
Nothing we say matters if we were asked a question first.
Fishy1 said:
I think the Scorpio is precisely talking about who provided that racist context, Norris or USA Today. Did the journalist come up and say that nine out of ten on field incidents cross ethnic lines, and then ask what Norris thought about latinos in the game of baseball? Or was the question something else, and Norris just started ranting about Carlos Gomez?
It's pretty racist either way, but in different ways.
And the rest of us are saying that no, that context doesn't matter, because he has racist attitudes. That's what we're holding him accountable for.nvalvo said:
EDIT: Which is to say essentially, that we're in agreement, except that Scorpio seemed to think that the quote was "taken out of context," and if we'd all just realize that, we'd know it wasn't racist.
SydneySox said:
But his comment isn't even racist. The OP conveniently leaves out the paragraph preceding the quoted portion.
He's referring to one guy, really - Carlos Gomez - who has been involved in four bench-clearing brawls in the past five seasons, most in MLB. I'm not saying Bud Norris is, or is not racist, because I don't know. But I don't see his comment as racist at all. Maybe he just doesn't like Carlos Gomez.
Context refers specifically about taking a quote without knowing or acknowledging when it was said, or who or what exactly it was said about. Bud Norris was talking about Carlos Gomez, not Yoan Moncada, or Rusney Castillo, or Yasiel Puig, or Pedro Martinez, or David Ortiz. But this thread is posted to make it seem like he was making a blanket statement on all Latino players. Outrage for the sake of outrage.
As for the article itself, it seems mostly written to draw up ire:
I would like to see the full list of "main antagonists" and the reasons for the brawls (HBP, shouting, antics, etc). The data is already going to be skewed by six player accounting for ~28% of the bench clearing brawls (assuming no overlap).
Yes, it's racist. In fact, the entire "play the game the right way" conversation is racist. Not in the obvious pre-1947 kind of racist way, but in the more subtle "I don't like the NBA because of the lack of team play" kind of way.
The fact of the matter is that discussion of "playing the game the right way" and "showing up the other team" has increased exponentially since Latino players began to dominate, and not because of anything Latin ballplayers do. Don't believe me? Take a look at this:
https://youtu.be/OB-rdG4u_zU
That's banjo-hitting nobody Tom Lawless. This is a man who had one home run in his career up to that point. This is a man who played only 19 games that season and was only on the World Series roster because of an injury. He barely even hit that home run, and yet he gave it one of the biggest pimp jobs in history. On national TV. In the World Series. How much outrage was unleashed in reaction to Lawless's antics? How many Cardinals hitters were hit in retaliation? How many public apologies was Lawless forced to issue? None, zip, zilch. Nobody cared.
Now try to imagine what would happen if Carlos Gomez did that today.
People like Bud Norris talk about respecting the game and how it's supposed to be played in America, but it's bunk. In reality, the Brian McCann Brigade is writing a false history of baseball that never existed in order to justify their own cultural discomfort.
The fact of the matter is that discussion of "playing the game the right way" and "showing up the other team" has increased exponentially since Latino players began to dominate, and not because of anything Latin ballplayers do. Don't believe me? Take a look at this:
https://youtu.be/OB-rdG4u_zU
That's banjo-hitting nobody Tom Lawless. This is a man who had one home run in his career up to that point. This is a man who played only 19 games that season and was only on the World Series roster because of an injury. He barely even hit that home run, and yet he gave it one of the biggest pimp jobs in history. On national TV. In the World Series. How much outrage was unleashed in reaction to Lawless's antics? How many Cardinals hitters were hit in retaliation? How many public apologies was Lawless forced to issue? None, zip, zilch. Nobody cared.
Now try to imagine what would happen if Carlos Gomez did that today.
People like Bud Norris talk about respecting the game and how it's supposed to be played in America, but it's bunk. In reality, the Brian McCann Brigade is writing a false history of baseball that never existed in order to justify their own cultural discomfort.
You just wrote 'outrage for the sake of outrage'.
The context here is that you have are justifying racism (a term you do not understand) through the application of cliched bullshit.
You should crystalise your ideas and do a deep dive to really touch all the bases on this one.
The context here is that you have are justifying racism (a term you do not understand) through the application of cliched bullshit.
You should crystalise your ideas and do a deep dive to really touch all the bases on this one.
SydneySox said:
I wrote "outrage for the sake of outrage" because when the thread title is:
"Bud Norris to Latinos: respect the game"
...while Bud Norris was talking about the ONE player who has been involved in more bench-clearing brawls in the past five seasons than anyone else. Good job completely ignoring that fact, though.
And are you seriously going to sit there and retort that racism is a term that I "don't understand"? Based on what? My lack of sensationalism? My avatar and username is a rich, white cartoon character?
The only "cliched bullshit" in this thread is the
And for the record:
con·text
ˈkäntekst/
noun
noun: context; plural noun: contexts
the circumstances that form the setting for an event, statement, or idea, and in terms of which it can be fully understood and assessed.
Just because you seem to be having a hard time.
Hank Scorpio said:
You are a literal example of context in action.
The context is that you do not understand racism in a statement which leads with "This is Mur'ica's Game" (I know it was typed out as America's game, but you know, context, he clearly said Murica and the reporter you hate just helped him out. Context!).
Your context is: You do not understand racism and you justify it with empty cliche.
Here's your next dictionary google homework: Look up the words in these sentences:
1. Our American Dollars
2. This is Murica's game.
3. I think this is culture shock.
4. If you're going to come into our country...
5. We are opening this game to...
And then try to play with the context of their meaning.
Check back in when you've sorted that one out. Be sure to use multiple fonts and sizes and ensure you randomly capitalise and bold things.
SydneySox said:
And now you're just making things up to fit into your own special little cliche fantasy.
In lieu of attempting to respond to the rest of your inane, mouth-frothed post, I've decided to return to my regularly scheduled program of not giving a fuck. Have fun being outraged.
If anyone else wants to post something intelligible, I'll be glad to discuss it, but I'm not going to play the SydneySox game.
Hank Scorpio said:
Outrage for outrage sake!
Hey, you should look that word up to! You got that one wrong as well.
I have a question on this topic. It's more of a naïve question, not snarky. I can understand the racism angle, but what if he is talking about more of the culture sense in how these players grew up playing baseball, and that maybe there was a little more cockiness and "showing up" involved in the leagues they played in before coming to the U.S. Is that racism? Rereading the quote, I really feel like that is what he is referring to. I'm with Scorpio in that while reading the thread, everybody was quick to scream "Racist!"
If he is only referring to the culture in which they played ball before here, I don't see why it's fair to call him a rascist. Maybe there was more to what he was saying, I have no idea.
If he is only referring to the culture in which they played ball before here, I don't see why it's fair to call him a rascist. Maybe there was more to what he was saying, I have no idea.
cournoyer said:
Pointing out cultural differences isn't a problem. Declaring a different culture to be wrong or insisting that another culture adapt to your culture because your culture is the right way to do something is where it gets ugly.
cournoyer said:
Language is important. There's a valid point that he may have been trying to make, but didn't quite, which would go something like this:
"Baseball is an international game now. We have guys competing who came out of different cultural backgrounds with different ideas about what's OK behavior on the field, and sometimes that causes tension. Everybody has to make an effort to understand these differences, so we won't misinterpret and overreact to things that aren't intended to show disrespect."
That would be a non-racist, non-hegemonist, valid grownup point.
Hank Scorpio said:
I want to know why you think these phrases, that Syd pointed out in Norris's comments, don't show bigotry and/or assumed superiority on his part:
1. Our American Dollars
2. This is America's game.
3. I think this is culture shock.
4. If you're going to come into our country...
5. We are opening this game to...
Damn latin ball players at it again.
http://deadspin.com/angry-baby-paul-molitor-yells-at-jose-ramirez-to-get-t-1733950727
http://deadspin.com/angry-baby-paul-molitor-yells-at-jose-ramirez-to-get-t-1733950727