Build Your All-Time Pats Team Under Belichick

SeoulSoxFan · Nov 12, 2014

Nice list ivanvamp.

I'd list three names that'll be starters over yours: Roman Phipher over Colvin, Damien Woody over Koppen, and as much as I love Troy Brown, the nod has to go to Wes Welker when comparing both in prime.

tims4wins · Nov 12, 2014

I would also nominate Josh Miller over Ryan Allen as punter. Miller was really good.

Also.. Ellis Hobbs? Tyrone Poole in 2003 was infinitely better.

Edit: another nit - McGinest never really played DE in a 3-4. He was an OLB. I don't think you could start McGinest-Wilfork-Seymour up front.

ChinaCat2 · Nov 12, 2014

I like your list too, but I think I'll start Joe Andruzzi at guard, over Brian Waters.

I wish there was room for David Givens on this team, but I can't really eliminate any of your other WR.

Given that Seau was well past his prime when we got him, I'll go with Ted Johnson on my SB bench instead. If I can get the San Diego Seau, I would take him obviously.

Man that secondary, with Revis, Law and Talib, McCourty and Rodney Harrison is freakin' awesome. Nobody would throw on that, and if they did, Rodney would smash them.

TheoShmeo · Nov 12, 2014

That is indeed a good list.

But if we're going to put Revis on there and ignore the small sample (which I do not quibble with), then I'd have to go with Browner over Hobbs.

I also wonder about leaving Joe Andruzzi off.

Leather · Nov 12, 2014

Ghostkowski over Vinatieri.

Zososoxfan · Nov 12, 2014

SeoulSoxFan said:
Nice list ivanvamp.

I'd list three names that'll be starters over yours: Roman Phipher over Colvin, Damien Woody over Koppen, and as much as I love Troy Brown, the nod has to go to Wes Welker when comparing both in prime.

These were the 2 that came immediately to mind for me as well. Also, Collins may be passing Colvin sooner than later based on performance for the Pats (although Rosy was certainly talented as his Chicago days showed).

dcdrew10 · Nov 12, 2014

drleather2001 said:
Ghostkowski over Vinatieri.

Seconded. I think Vinatieri is a good choice and definitely a sentimental favorite, but Gost gets in with a bigger leg on kick-offs and better accuracy. I almost forgot that Vinateri could kick long field goals, even making a 57 yarder, but Gost kills him in accuracy over 50 yards ( 76.5% vs. 53.8%). Gost also has only ever missed one (or two) game winning field goals and has hit game winning field goals in the playoffs, so he can be considered clutch.

BornToRun · Nov 12, 2014

dcdrew10 said:
Seconded. I think Vinatieri is a good choice and definitely a sentimental favorite, but Gost gets in with a bigger leg on kick-offs and better accuracy. I almost forgot that Vinateri could kick long field goals, even making a 57 yarder, but Gost kills him in accuracy over 50 yards ( 76.5% vs. 53.8%). Gost also has only ever missed one (or two) game winning field goals and has hit game winning field goals in the playoffs, so he can be considered clutch.

Thirded. No disrespect to AV but I think the Ghost has proven to be a superior kicker since he came on board in 2006.

Morgan's Magic Snowplow · Nov 12, 2014

McGinest really shouldn't be playing the DE position in a 3-4 alignment. He's a hybrid OLB or 4-3 DE. I'd go with McGinest starting at OLB and Ty Warren at DE, which basically makes the line and OLBs the 2003-2004 era team.

Obviously, his play under BB wouldn't qualify him for this list but solely in terms of best players who were on a roster during the Belichick era, I'll throw out a sentimental vote for Bruce Armstrong, whose last year in the league was as a member of the 2000 team. I loved Bruce Armstrong and it still kind of burns me that he didn't stick around another year and get to taste a little bit of the success.

The Social Chair · Nov 12, 2014

I'd go with Ben Coates over Graham.

edit- "under Belichick" I'm dumb.

Dan to Theo to Ben · Nov 12, 2014

I'd add Watson as a 4th TE and remove a 9th OL, probably Neal.

Possibly remove a 6th WR (Givens) if I have Herb as part of a 4 TE package.

Not sure about Hobbs and Ryan.

tims4wins · Nov 12, 2014

ivanvamp said:
I admit I did check to see if Coates played in 2000 under BB.

I did think a lot about Watson over Graham.

You got Graham over Watson correct IMO - Graham was a far superior blocker, and given the other receiving TEs on the roster I would take Graham.

tims4wins · Nov 12, 2014

ivanvamp said:
Hobbs also serves as the KR, something Poole didn't do.

True, although Welker, Brown, and Branch have all returned kicks at some point

Dan to Theo to Ben · Nov 12, 2014

My 53...

Offense (26)
QB - Brady, Bledsoe (2)
TB - Dillon, A. Smith (2)
3DB- Faulk (1)
FB - Edwards (1)
WR - Moss, Patten, Branch, Slater (4)
SR - Welker, Brown, Edelman (3)
TE - Gronkowski, Hernandez, Graham, Watson (4)
OT - Light, Vollmer, Solder (3)
OG - Mankins, Andruzzi, Waters (3)
C - Koppen, Woody, Paxton (3)

Defense (25)
DE - Chandler Jones, Ninkovich, Hamilton (3)
NT - Wilfork, Washington (2)
DE/DT,Seymour, Ty Warren, Pleasant (3)
OLB - McGinest, Vrabel, Colvin, Phifer (4)
ILB - Bruschi, Mayo, Johnson (3)
LB Adalius Thomas (1)
CB - Revis, Law, Samuel, Otis, Hobbs, Talib (6)
SS - Harrison (1)
FS - McCourty, Milloy (2)

Special Teams (2)
K - Vinatieri
P - Allen

KR: Hobbs/Faulk
PR: Edelman/Welker
LS: Paxton
Captains: Brady (O), Andruzzi (O), Slater (ST) Faulk (ST), Wilfork (D), Bruschi (D)

Common inactives are the WR's, in BB fashion.

Dan to Theo to Ben · Nov 12, 2014

Inactive 8:
Patten, Watson, Edwards, AT, Washington, Pleasant, Phifer, Otis

Dan to Theo to Ben · Nov 12, 2014

Starters:

3-4
Chandler - Wilfork - Seymour
McGinest - Mayo - Bruschi - Vrabel
Revis - Harrison - Milloy - Law

WR Moss, Slot Welker
TE Gronk receiving, Graham blocking
single back
Light - Mankins - Koppen - Andruzzi - Vollmer
3rd down and 4+, Hernandez split wide for Graham, shotgun.

Dan to Theo to Ben · Nov 12, 2014

tims4wins said:
True, although Welker, Brown, and Branch have all returned kicks at some point

Hobbs was pretty darn good at KR

http://prod.static.patriots.clubs.nfl.com/assets/docs/historical/alltime-lists/alltime-kickoff-returners.pdf

BannedbyNYYFans.com · Nov 12, 2014

My list initially included Ross Ventrone. I cut him and added him four times before finally releasing him for good.

Old Fart Tree · Nov 12, 2014

Building awesome teams is easy and boring. I challenge you to create a WORSE team of BB-era Patriots than this:

Offense
QB - Rohan Davey, Michael Bishop, Mike Kafka
RB - Tony Carter, Harold Shaw, Raymont Harris
WR - Chad Jackson, Chad Ochocinco, Kelvin Kight, Charles Johnson, Tony Simmons, Sam Aiken, Shockmain Davis
TE - Eric Bjornson, Chris Baker, OJ Santiago
OT - Wesley Britt, Thomas Ashworth
OG - Sale Isaiah, Ryan O'Callahan
C - Grey Ruegamer

Defense
DE - Greg Spires, David Nugent
DT - Ron Brace, Terdell Sands
OLB - Maugula Tuitele, Kole Ayi, TJ Turner, Shawn Crable (honestly these guys could be ILBs, I just don't remember)
ILB - Rob Holmberg, Andy Katzenmoyer, OJ Brigance
CB - Kyle Arrington, Darius Butler, Brett Lockett, Terrence Wheatley, Kato Serwanga
S - Tony George, Chris Hayes

P - Lee Johnson

Old Fart Tree · Nov 12, 2014

And I'm carrying three QBs because they all fucking suck.

Stitch01 · Nov 12, 2014

Arrington over Duane Starks is a complete travesty (Arrington doesn't belong near this team and neither does Bobby Hamilton)

Donald Hayes and Jordan Devey should be on there. I got Steve Martin over Ron Brace too.

BornToRun · Nov 12, 2014

Old Fart Tree said:
And I'm carrying three QBs because they all fucking suck.

You forgot Martin Gramatica at kicker.

Dan to Theo to Ben · Nov 12, 2014

Hamilton had 52 tackles (from the DL) and 7 sacks as one of the 52, and for that made my ATBB team.

Arrington and Ocho have no business being on the team you described.
And Ashworth caught a TD pass as an eligible lineman.

Old Fart Tree · Nov 12, 2014

Arrington was kind of as a joke, as he's a reasonable slot guy. As a starting corner... well, I fucking hate him. And it's my team so I can put him in there if I so choose.

Ocho was a complete fucking disaster as a Patriot, so I stand by that selection.

Hamilton: that was an honest mistake. I'm pulling him.

Dan to Theo to Ben · Nov 12, 2014

Old Fart Tree said:
Ocho was a complete fucking disaster as a Patriot, so I stand by that selection.

1)
http://www.patriots.com/media-center/videos/Highlight-Ochocinco-33-yard-TD-catch/b3aa2cfb-60fd-4759-8108-52217d6f921c

2)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHBlCrlcs3c

Deathofthebambino · Nov 12, 2014

I love Ghost as much as anyone, but to pick him over Vinatieri is not only sacrilegious, it's just plain wrong. Put aside his Super Bowl winners and dozens of other game winners, and I have two words for everyone, Snow Bowl. As a 20+ year season ticket holder, I've been to hundreds of Patriots games, and I've seen thousands of kicks, and that first kick, was without a doubt, the hardest kick I've ever seen attempted, never mind made, in any game, ever. There was a foot of snow on the ground, the wind was whipping, the crowd was in a complete frenzy, the pressure was insane. It's almost hard to describe the atmosphere and conditions that were going on at the time. I've been fortunate enough to see a ton of great sporting events, but to this day, that game is so far ahead of anything I've ever been to that it's not even in the same area code as anything else.

I would bet a lot of money that if you could recreate that exact scenario, and you lined up 100 of the greatest kickers of all time and gave them one shot at it under those conditions with those stakes on the line, less than 10 would make the kick, if that many. It's easily conceivable to me that nobody would make it. It was that fucking hard. And people need to remember that this was not the 3 time Super Bowl Champion Patriots. This was a team climbing out of the cellar of shit, riding a Cindarella story and a rookie QB into the playoffs, in a game that they probably should have already lost. I realize a lot of time has passed since that day, and I'll forgive folks that may have forgotten and/or are really too young to remember what it was like, but this is not a "Get off my lawn," sentiment. A very solid argument could be made that AV and his kicks literally changed the future of this franchise. It was that important at the time. It's that important now.

Needless to say, I'm pretty passionate about this issue. I know what the numbers say. I know that on paper Ghost is probably the better kicker. But I say this in the nicest possible way. FUCK ALL THAT NOISE. If I have to pick one guy, to make one kick, on the biggest stage imaginable, I'm taking the guy that's done it not once, not twice, but over and over and over again, in every possible situation and under impossible conditions. We aren't talking about whether or not one guy can make 8 out of 10 kicks from over 50 yards, while the other guy can make 5 out of 10 because obviously Ghost is that guy right now. We're talking about the "all time best Pats team" under BB, and not including AV is just plain wrong. Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. If I had to pick the 10 most important players in the history of the damn franchise, AV would be one of them. Shit, he might be in the top 5. It meant that much, and it was even harder than what it meant.

Dollar · Nov 12, 2014

That team won't need a punter, so I'll take Adam as my FG specialist and Ghost as my kickoff/50+ specialist.

And I really wish we could have seen Ted Washington and Vince Wilfork lined up next to each other on a goal line stand.

Super Nomario · Nov 13, 2014

Deathofthebambino said:
I love Ghost as much as anyone, but to pick him over Vinatieri is not only sacrilegious, it's just plain wrong. Put aside his Super Bowl winners and dozens of other game winners, and I have two words for everyone, Snow Bowl. As a 20+ year season ticket holder, I've been to hundreds of Patriots games, and I've seen thousands of kicks, and that first kick, was without a doubt, the hardest kick I've ever seen attempted, never mind made, in any game, ever. There was a foot of snow on the ground, the wind was whipping, the crowd was in a complete frenzy, the pressure was insane. It's almost hard to describe the atmosphere and conditions that were going on at the time. I've been fortunate enough to see a ton of great sporting events, but to this day, that game is so far ahead of anything I've ever been to that it's not even in the same area code as anything else.

I would bet a lot of money that if you could recreate that exact scenario, and you lined up 100 of the greatest kickers of all time and gave them one shot at it under those conditions with those stakes on the line, less than 10 would make the kick, if that many. It's easily conceivable to me that nobody would make it. It was that fucking hard. And people need to remember that this was not the 3 time Super Bowl Champion Patriots. This was a team climbing out of the cellar of shit, riding a Cindarella story and a rookie QB into the playoffs, in a game that they probably should have already lost. I realize a lot of time has passed since that day, and I'll forgive folks that may have forgotten and/or are really too young to remember what it was like, but this is not a "Get off my lawn," sentiment. A very solid argument could be made that AV and his kicks literally changed the future of this franchise. It was that important at the time. It's that important now.

Needless to say, I'm pretty passionate about this issue. I know what the numbers say. I know that on paper Ghost is probably the better kicker. But I say this in the nicest possible way. FUCK ALL THAT NOISE. If I have to pick one guy, to make one kick, on the biggest stage imaginable, I'm taking the guy that's done it not once, not twice, but over and over and over again, in every possible situation and under impossible conditions. We aren't talking about whether or not one guy can make 8 out of 10 kicks from over 50 yards, while the other guy can make 5 out of 10 because obviously Ghost is that guy right now. We're talking about the "all time best Pats team" under BB, and not including AV is just plain wrong. Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. If I had to pick the 10 most important players in the history of the damn franchise, AV would be one of them. Shit, he might be in the top 5. It meant that much, and it was even harder than what it meant.

I agree with all of this. It's dumb that that game gets called, the "Tuck Rule" game and not the "holy shit someone just made the most unbelievable kick of all time!" game.

tims4wins · Nov 13, 2014

Rohan Davey was actually on the team for several years. Kliff Kingsbury and Kevin O'Connell were jokes as QBs, especially since O'Connell was a 3rd round pick.

Also, Tom Ashworth was the starting RT on a Super Bowl champion, I don't think he should be included.

Ed Hillel · Nov 13, 2014

Super Nomario said:
I agree with all of this. It's dumb that that game gets called, the "Tuck Rule" game and not the "holy shit someone just made the most unbelievable kick of all time!" game.

I remember watching and having no idea whatsoever where the ball went. I just saw the ref raise his arms up and was so stunned I couldn't even celebrate.

Ed Hillel · Nov 13, 2014

For Special Teams, I am torn between Slater and Izzo. Izzo ultimately gets the nod for dropping a deuce on the sideline during a game.

Import78 · Nov 13, 2014

If I was home (instead of work where most good internet things are blocked) I would try and find a video/gif of that kick to post to remind people. It was the balls.

FelixMantilla · Nov 13, 2014

Duh, nevermind!

IdiotKicker · Nov 13, 2014

I can't believe I didn't see this earlier. I deliberately skipped all of the earlier replies to I could put my team out without influence. So you may now critique me for easily-overlooked players that were mentioned upthread.

QB - Brady, Bledsoe, Cassel
RB - Dillon, BJGE, Antowain Smith, Faulk
FB - Marc Edwards
WR - Moss, Givens, Edelman, Welker, Brown, Branch
TE - Gronk, Hernandez, Watson
T - Light, Solder, Vollmer
G - Mankins, Neal, Woody
C - Koppen, Stork
DE - Seymour, Warren, Hamilton
DT - Wilfork, Washington,
OLB - McGinest, Colvin, Vrabel, Collins
ILB - Bruschi, Mayo, Johnson
CB - Revis, Law, Talib, Samuel, Hobbs, Otis Smith
S - Harrison, McCourty, Tebucky, Milloy
K - Vinatieri
P - Josh Miller
ST - Slater
LS - Paxton

I think I only need 51 players for my team unless I miscounted.

Dan to Theo to Ben · Nov 13, 2014

Chuck Z said:
I can't believe I didn't see this earlier. I deliberately skipped all of the earlier replies to I could put my team out without influence. So you may now critique me for easily-overlooked players that were mentioned upthread.

QB - Brady, Bledsoe, Cassel
RB - Dillon, BJGE, Antowain Smith, Faulk
FB - Marc Edwards
WR - Moss, Givens, Edelman, Welker, Brown, Branch
TE - Gronk, Hernandez, Watson
T - Light, Solder, Vollmer
G - Mankins, Neal, Woody
C - Koppen, Stork
DE - Seymour, Warren, Hamilton
DT - Wilfork, Washington,
OLB - McGinest, Colvin, Vrabel, Collins
ILB - Bruschi, Mayo, Johnson
CB - Revis, Law, Talib, Samuel, Hobbs, Otis Smith
S - Harrison, McCourty, Tebucky, Milloy
K - Vinatieri
P - Josh Miller
ST - Slater
LS - Paxton

I think I only need 51 players for my team unless I miscounted.

I like your team, we have a lot of similarity (same 6 corners, Edwards etc.), I like your youth infusion (Stork, Collins) I think you need a couple more DL though, unless you're going with a 2-4-5 formation.

tims4wins · Nov 13, 2014

I think I would chose Heath Evans as FB over Edwards due to him being better threat at running. What would others say on that?

Kenny F'ing Powers · Nov 13, 2014

She may have been an asshole, but Terry Glenn was a better WR than quite a few names that I'm seeing on these lists. That excuse also kind of goes out the window when you include a murderer on your roster.

Moss & Glenn opening up space for Welker & Gronk with Kevin Faulk running a delayed swing/stab route? Yikes.

snowmanny · Nov 13, 2014

SeoulSoxFan said:
Nice list ivanvamp.

I'd list three names that'll be starters over yours: Roman Phipher over Colvin, Damien
Woody over Koppen, and as much as I love Troy Brown, the nod has to go to Wes Welker when comparing both in prime.

You're probably right about Brown/Welker, but Brown's prime was very solid. I'm not sure there was any Patriot who provided more total value
than Brown during Belichick's first two years in NE.

ilol@u · Nov 13, 2014

Stitch01 said:
Arrington over Duane Starks is a complete travesty (Arrington doesn't belong near this team and neither does Bobby Hamilton)

Donald Hayes and Jordan Devey should be on there. I got Steve Martin over Ron Brace too.

Does nobody remember the suck that was Deltha O'Neal?

Import78 · Nov 13, 2014

Just remembered about this, a video I found of the last 15 or so minutes of the game, from a bit before the 'tuck rule' (and holy cow, Brady actually scrambles). It is worth watching the whole thing, the weather is horrendous, the kick happens just after the 12 minute mark.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7J5saVOhVrc

Also, fuck the Raiders.

Mugsy's Walk-Off Bunt · Nov 15, 2014

In addition to the fact that the Tuck Rule was, ya know, an actual thing, as opposed to some B.S. conspiracy, the Raiders had approximately a zillion chances after that to stop the Patriots and win the game. Instead, they whined and cried and haven't stopped since.

jasail · Nov 16, 2014

My 53

Offense (26)
QB (2): Brady, Bledsoe
RB (4): Dillon, Faulk, Smith, BJGE
FB (1): Evans
WR (6): Moss, Edelman, Welker, Branch, Brown, Slater
TE (3): Gronkowski, Hernandez, Graham
OT (3): Light, Solder, Volmer
OG (4): Mankins, Andruzzi, Waters, Neal
C (3): Koppen, Woody, Paxton

Defense (25):
DT (3): Wilfork, Seymour, Washington
DE (4): Jones, Warren, Carter, Ninkovich
OLB (4): McGinnest, Vrabel, Colvin, Banta-Cain
ILB (4): Bruschi, Mayo, Johnson, Izzo
CB (6): Law, Revis, Talib, Samuel, Browner, Poole
S (4): Harrison, McCourty, Wilson, Chung

ST (2):
K: Gost
P: Allen

As BB believes strongly in winning all 3 aspects of the game, I focused a bit more on special teams by adding Chung, Izzo, Banta-Cain and Slater.

nazz45 · Nov 16, 2014

Tough filling out the backend of the roster as there were a lot players they could have edged out others.

Offense (25)
QB - Brady, Bledsoe
RB - Dillon, Faulk, Ridley, Woodhead (provides a true backup for Faulk which a lot of these lists are missing)
WR - Moss, Welker, Brown, Edelman, Branch, Patten, Slater (strongly considered Glenn or Givens over Patten but Patten was the more productive player under Belichick)
TE - Gronkowski, Watson, Graham (Hernandez is playing for Nevade State Penitentiary)
OT - Solder, Vollmer, Light
OG - Mankins, Waters, Neal, Andruzzi
C - Koppen, Woody

Defense (25)
DL - Seymour, Warren, Washington, Wilfork, Hamilton (considered Jarvis Green over Hamilton)
OLB/DE - McGinest, Vrabel, Jones, Colvin, Thomas, Ninkovich (considered Andre Carter here)
ILB - Bruschi, Johnson, Mayo, Phifer, Izzo
CB - Revis, Law, Samuel, Talib, Hobbs
S - Harrison, McCourty, Milloy, Wilson

Special Teams (3)
K - Vinatieri
P - Allen
LS - Paxton

Game Day Roster

Offensive Starters (3 WR, 1 TE, 1 RB)
QB - Brady
RB - Dillon
WR - Moss, Branch, Welker
TE - Gronkowski
LT - Light
LG - Mankins
C - Koppen
RG - Waters
RT - Solder

Defensive Starters (3-4 Base)
DE - Warren
NT - Washington
DE - Seymour
OLB - Vrabel
ILB - Bruschi
ILB - Mayo
OLB - McGinest
CB - Revis
CB - Law
S - McCourty
S - Harrison

Nickel Defense (4-2-5 Alignment)
McGinest - Seymour - Wilfork - Jones
Phifer - Bruschi (Phifer was a top notch coverage linebacker even into his mid-30s)
Law - Revis - Harrison - McCourty - Talib (depends on the matchup but would probably use Revis in the slot)

Kick Returner - Hobbs
Punt Returner - Edelman
Core Special Teams Players - Slater & Izzo

Inactives: Patten, Andruzzi, Watson, Ninkovich, Wilson, Ridley, Thomas

Build Your All-Time Pats Team Under Belichick

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