Castillo placed on outright waivers

simplicio

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Thank goodness for Henry and DD being willing to write all these guys off as breakage.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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It would've been nice to get something for him (high-ceiling low-level prospect), but getting him off the 40-man is pretty big. Saving on the luxury tax is simply icing on the cake, no?
That they've gotten to this point seems to imply that there was no low-level propsect to be had for him. Freeing up the spot on the 40-man for, at the very least, another outfielder who hits left-handed is a move in the right direction. What this also does is delay the point where they're stuck with him on the 25-man roster because he's out of options (1 option left after this year but 4 years remaining on his deal), perhaps indefinitely. He can ride out the remainder of his contract in Pawtucket and it won't impact the big league club one bit.
 

amfox1

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This will save almost $6mm from the payroll calculated for luxury tax purposes.

EDIT: At a 30% rate for second-consecutive-year offenders, this will save approx. $1.8mm in luxury tax penalties.
 
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fieldslikebuckner

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Question for those who know the CBA. I know Castillo and Craig were able to be removed from the 40-man, and while they get paid, their money doesn't count for luxury tax purposes. Is there a similar way to remove Panda in the future and not have his contract count?
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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Question for those who know the CBA. I know Castillo and Craig were able to be removed from the 40-man, and while they get paid, their money doesn't count for luxury tax purposes. Is there a similar way to remove Panda in the future and not have his contract count?
Not really because in order to do it with Panda, he would have to consent to being assigned to the minors (neither Craig nor Castillo have enough service time to refuse the assignment). No reason he'd do that when, due to his service time, he has the right to not only refuse the assignment, but force the team to give him his outright release. And with that outright release, he'd be paid the remainder of his contract immediately (barring a negotiation of deferred payments) and it would continue to count against the Red Sox luxury tax for the original length of the deal.
 

Sox and Rocks

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Question for those who know the CBA. I know Castillo and Craig were able to be removed from the 40-man, and while they get paid, their money doesn't count for luxury tax purposes. Is there a similar way to remove Panda in the future and not have his contract count?
No because any player with 5 years or more of Major league service time can refuse a minor league assignment and become a free agent.

Panda undoubtedly would, and plenty of teams would be interested in picking him up for the league minimum while the sox pay the rest.
 

mauidano

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No because any player with 5 years or more of Major league service time can refuse a minor league assignment and become a free agent.

Panda undoubtedly would, and plenty of teams would be interested in picking him up for the league minimum while the sox pay the rest.
Which is what is happening with Jose Reyes right now and Carl Crawford. Man, these huge contracts having to be eaten! Crazy. And it won't change a thing going forward. Guaranteed contracts, these guys will get paid every dollar.
 

mauf

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The Cherington era continues to get worse.
I'm glad you pointed this out. While I'm watching our young core of Bogaerts, Betts and Bradley (plus Shaw, plus Pedroia on that ridiculous contract), I'll remember what a shabby state of affairs BC left behind. Good thing DD stepped in and transformed the franchise with his shrewd free-agent pickups.
 

soxhop411

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“‪@bradfo‬: Per source, as of about hour ago Castillo hadn’t heard anything re his situation. Has 3 days before has to report to team after demotion”
 

LahoudOrBillyC

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I hope when Dombrowski wins Executive of the Year award that historians are wise enough to point out the historic cache of pre-prime All-Stars he inherited.
 

Rasputin

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I'm glad you pointed this out. While I'm watching our young core of Bogaerts, Betts and Bradley (plus Shaw, plus Pedroia on that ridiculous contract), I'll remember what a shabby state of affairs BC left behind. Good thing DD stepped in and transformed the franchise with his shrewd free-agent pickups.
Seriously, for all that went wrong on Cherington's watch, a whole lot more went right. Dave Dombrowski could win a few titles here and cement himself as a Hall of Fame GM and it would be primarily on the backs of players Cherington brought in.
 

esfr

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Why do people try to defend the Castillo decision with a body of work argument.

Castillo was an objectively horrible decision - high risk signings can NOT cost $72.5M. For $72.5M there damn well better be a reasonable floor on the players potential well above "not MLB caliber"! If you can't set that floor with conviction you pass. This is not a proven FA player dropping off a cliff or getting 1-2 years too many that you know you will regret due to "market" - this is abject failure to a level that you lose your job.

If you don't think a $72.5M investment with 0% return doesn't hurt an organization you are crazy.

When you compound this magnitude of mistake by being stingy with guys like Lester you have the recipe for failure, and you end up a teacher.
 

Rasputin

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Why do people try to defend the Castillo decision with a body of work argument.

Castillo was an objectively horrible decision - high risk signings can NOT cost $72.5M. For $72.5M there damn well better be a reasonable floor on the players potential well above "not MLB caliber"! If you can't set that floor with conviction you pass. This is not a proven FA player dropping off a cliff or getting 1-2 years too many that you know you will regret due to "market" - this is abject failure to a level that you lose your job.

If you don't think a $72.5M investment with 0% return doesn't hurt an organization you are crazy.

When you compound this magnitude of mistake by being stingy with guys like Lester you have the recipe for failure, and you end up a teacher.
Yes, when judging someone's job performance, we should just look at one thing and not bother to look at everything else. Just one thing. Not even one category of things, just one thing. One report written. One arrest made. One claim filed. One player signed.

Honest to God, the self-righteousness of hindsight around here is revolting.
 

In my lifetime

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The one issue I have with the move is: since it was apparent at least a month ago that the RS had given up on Castillo providing help to the major league club for the next few months why they didn't make this move earlier to save money on the luxury tax. I had actually figured he had a clause in his contract which ensured he was on the 40 man contract.
 

zenter

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Perhaps DD thought the Sox could get something for Castillo + money a month ago, and realizes after 29 calls that such a trade is impossible.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Castillo was an objectively horrible decision - high risk signings can NOT cost $72.5M. For $72.5M there damn well better be a reasonable floor on the players potential well above "not MLB caliber"! If you can't set that floor with conviction you pass. This is not a proven FA player dropping off a cliff or getting 1-2 years too many that you know you will regret due to "market" - this is abject failure to a level that you lose your job.

If you don't think a $72.5M investment with 0% return doesn't hurt an organization you are crazy.
Well one way to think of it is that if the Sox didn't have Castillo as an option, it is possible that the Red Sox might have had to jettison one of the youngsters - particularly Bradley - for someone more "proven."

Also, your idea of "0%" return is part and parcel of the fact that 2/3rds of the outfield are being taken by potential superstars. Castillo is being paid as a league average centerfielder and given that he has showed plus defense in over 700 innings in the outfield - see http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/lets-find-rusney-castillo-a-new-home/ - he probably could earn that on another team. Fortunately for us and the Red Sox, league average isn't something the Red Sox really have much of a need for right now.
 

Pilgrim

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The timing of this is interesting. They get to clear some salary off the luxury tax ledger, and I also think it also indicates they don't plan on bringing him up again this year. We might see a trade for a LF platoon partner soon. Cafardo (I know) had Jon Jay as a possibility in his column today.

Edit: is he out of options? Soxprospects has him listed as having 2 left, but that seems high.
 
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Rovin Romine

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I hope when Dombrowski wins Executive of the Year award that historians are wise enough to point out the historic cache of pre-prime All-Stars he inherited.
FWIW, 2011 was a Theo draft: Barnes, Swihart, Owens, JBJ, Betts and Shaw. (Boegarts was signed in '09, Vazquez drafted in '08)

2012 was BC: Marrero, Johnson, Light, Buttrey. (Ben did trade for Wright that year though.)
 

simplicio

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FWIW, 2011 was a Theo draft: Barnes, Swihart, Owens, JBJ, Betts and Shaw. (Boegarts was signed in '09, Vazquez drafted in '08)

2012 was BC: Marrero, Johnson, Light, Buttrey. (Ben did trade for Wright that year though.)
Yeah, after the Punto Trade & the 2013 vets, Lars for Wright may just go down as Cherington's third best move.
 

LahoudOrBillyC

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FWIW, 2011 was a Theo draft: Barnes, Swihart, Owens, JBJ, Betts and Shaw. (Boegarts was signed in '09, Vazquez drafted in '08)

2012 was BC: Marrero, Johnson, Light, Buttrey. (Ben did trade for Wright that year though.)
The job of the GM is to nurture/improve the talent in an organization. I am not sure I would credit/blame a GM for a draft -- the credit for Betts goes to the organization that turned him from what he was in 2011 to what he was in 2014. The draft of Betts could be credited to the scouting director and one or two scouts, the development of Betts to the people in charge of creating/managing the farm system. Not sure Theo enters into it.

I am not here to defend the Castillo signing, which has not worked out. However, one poster above said, "The Cherington era continues to get worse."

The Red Sox organization post-2004 has produced more talent than any other team in baseball. Cherington was either the farm director or GM during all of that time. He is easily in the upper echelon of Red Sox executives ever.

If you only want to consider his time as GM, I would suggest looking at the drama-filled shit show he took over in late 2011, and compare that to what he handed Dombrowski last August (adding in the World Series win if you wish). I suppose one could say, "yeah, but his 2011 organization was filled with future All-Stars in short season A ball," but that would be a bit much for me.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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The job of the GM is to nurture/improve the talent in an organization. I am not sure I would credit/blame a GM for a draft -- the credit for Betts goes to the organization that turned him from what he was in 2011 to what he was in 2014. The draft of Betts could be credited to the scouting director and one or two scouts, the development of Betts to the people in charge of creating/managing the farm system. Not sure Theo enters into it.

I am not here to defend the Castillo signing, which has not worked out. However, one poster above said, "The Cherington era continues to get worse."

The Red Sox organization post-2004 has produced more talent than any other team in baseball. Cherington was either the farm director or GM during all of that time. He is easily in the upper echelon of Red Sox executives ever.

If you only want to consider his time as GM, I would suggest looking at the drama-filled shit show he took over in late 2011, and compare that to what he handed Dombrowski last August (adding in the World Series win if you wish). I suppose one could say, "yeah, but his 2011 organization was filled with future All-Stars in short season A ball," but that would be a bit much for me.
Even if one were to be reticent to credit Cherington for draft choices made during Theo's tenure, the fact remains that Cherington resisted the urge to turn those "future All-Stars in short season A ball" into more expensive veteran trade acquisitions in a pursuit of salvaging any of his "lost" seasons (2012, 2014, 2015). There sure was plenty of groundswell for such big splash moves among media and fans.
 

snowmanny

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Why do people try to defend the Castillo decision with a body of work argument.

Castillo was an objectively horrible decision - high risk signings can NOT cost $72.5M. For $72.5M there damn well better be a reasonable floor on the players potential well above "not MLB caliber"! If you can't set that floor with conviction you pass. This is not a proven FA player dropping off a cliff or getting 1-2 years too many that you know you will regret due to "market" - this is abject failure to a level that you lose your job.

If you don't think a $72.5M investment with 0% return doesn't hurt an organization you are crazy.

When you compound this magnitude of mistake by being stingy with guys like Lester you have the recipe for failure, and you end up a teacher.
Eh. Cherington did lots of good moves and he did lots of moves that annoyed me (Castillo, Sandoval, Craig-Lackey, Lester, Bogaerts/2014). What was annoying about this move wasn't just the 72.5 for Castillo but that they should have/could have signed Abreu and his way more impressive numbers in Cuba for those exact $ (plus saving the Napoli money). I do admit I have no idea whether the timing of Abreu's signing- in the 2013 post-season - played into that decision. But on the face of it, this signing looked like an big overpay compared to Abreu and perhaps even an overreaction to missing out on Abreu and the team's craptastic OF performance in 2014. In short, I didn't really trust the decision-making process at work on this one, or the other moves I referenced above. While not trading B/B/B and winning a WS made Ben's tenure grade out as a success, he made enough inexplicable decisions that I'd be wary about future performance.
 

zenter

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Even if one were to be reticent to credit Cherington for draft choices made during Theo's tenure, the fact remains that Cherington resisted the urge to turn those "future All-Stars in short season A ball" into more expensive veteran trade acquisitions in a pursuit of salvaging any of his "lost" seasons (2012, 2014, 2015). There sure was plenty of groundswell for such big splash moves among media and fans.
This cannot be said enough. He never mortgaged the future for the present. He recognized that this was a team that could bridge ;) between elite draft classes using free agency.

Which completely makes sense as a guy who worked under two of the best execs the Sox had.
 

Plympton91

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Pawtucket, land of decaying millionaires.

Thank goodness for Henry and DD being willing to write all these guys off as breakage.
It's a good thing we don't have to worry about those out years of Jon Lesters contract.

They gave Rusnay Castillo more guaranteed money than their initial offer to Jon Lester.

It's good that both Ben and Lucchino are gone, I think.
 

JohntheBaptist

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Even if one were to be reticent to credit Cherington for draft choices made during Theo's tenure, the fact remains that Cherington resisted the urge to turn those "future All-Stars in short season A ball" into more expensive veteran trade acquisitions in a pursuit of salvaging any of his "lost" seasons (2012, 2014, 2015). There sure was plenty of groundswell for such big splash moves among media and fans.
This is the way to look at it in my opinion as well. 9 out of 10 GMs start trading those guys out fast, not just to save a particular season, but their jobs. He never did that, and while his transaction log isn't spotless, the development and retention of that core is a much, much bigger part of his legacy. Plus, his hand in 2013, whatever you deem that to be.
 

Sandy Leon Trotsky

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If Beane claims him, does he pick up his entire salary? I still don't get the "claim" and salary thing.... If the entire salary is going then sure, nobody is claiming him. But aren't there outright waiver claims when the team that "claims" him only pays the league minimum and the outrighting team is still responsible for the remaining salary per season?
I would think that several teams would be willing to pay at least $1M per season and toss in a low level prospect our way for him. He's young, defensively he's a very capable CF'er and had flashed some power and potential. Is DD just getting his luxury tax hit off the payroll and keeping him in Pawtucket hoping that he'll turn it around or is this just totally a sunk cost?
 

twibnotes

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Yes, when judging someone's job performance, we should just look at one thing and not bother to look at everything else. Just one thing. Not even one category of things, just one thing. One report written. One arrest made. One claim filed. One player signed.

Honest to God, the self-righteousness of hindsight around here is revolting.

Oh please. One thing!?

I'm all for giving Cherington credit for his good moves, but his list of bad moves goes way beyond "one thing":

- Hanley
- Porcello (not terrible but overpay and odd timing)
- Panda
- Castillo

This is a large number of bad misses, and as has been mentioned many times, this team has not developed any pitching. Cherington did some great things but there's a reason he is no longer the head man for the Sox or any other MLB team.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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If Beane claims him, does he pick up his entire salary? I still don't get the "claim" and salary thing.... If the entire salary is going then sure, nobody is claiming him. But aren't there outright waiver claims when the team that "claims" him only pays the league minimum and the outrighting team is still responsible for the remaining salary per season?
I would think that several teams would be willing to pay at least $1M per season and toss in a low level prospect our way for him. He's young, defensively he's a very capable CF'er and had flashed some power and potential. Is DD just getting his luxury tax hit off the payroll and keeping him in Pawtucket hoping that he'll turn it around or is this just totally a sunk cost?
If a team claims Castillo from waivers, they assume the remainder of his contract and the Red Sox are entirely free and clear of any further obligation to him.

If Castillo clears waivers with no claims, the Red Sox have the option of giving him his unconditional outright release. If they were to do that, they would be responsible for the remainder of his contract. The only relief they might get is if another team picks him up as a free agent, in which case that team pays him the league minimum and the Red Sox are off the hook for that amount only.
 

Plympton91

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Responding to Rasputin's call to consider Cherington's entire body of work, doesn't the conclusion become that as a GM he made a great farm director? And maybe a farm director for the offense, not the pitching program.
 

Maximus

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It's a good thing we don't have to worry about those out years of Jon Lesters contract.

They gave Rusnay Castillo more guaranteed money than their initial offer to Jon Lester.

It's good that both Ben and Lucchino are gone, I think.
Yep. Happy to see the DD era in progress.
 

Sprowl

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Toolsney apparently lacked the most important tool of all: the hit tool. The arm, the glove, the speed, the power are all there, but he apparently will never be able to make enough contact with major-league pitching to earn himself even a place on the Pawtucket shuttle.

Craig and Castillo should buy dinner for the rest of the Pawsox for years to come.
 

Rasputin

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Oh please. One thing!?

I'm all for giving Cherington credit for his good moves, but his list of bad moves goes way beyond "one thing":

- Hanley
- Porcello (not terrible but overpay and odd timing)
- Panda
- Castillo

This is a large number of bad misses, and as has been mentioned many times, this team has not developed any pitching. Cherington did some great things but there's a reason he is no longer the head man for the Sox or any other MLB team.
Actually, that's three things because you're wrong about Porcello, but really the point here is context. That, and before you argue with someone, you might want to make sure they actually hold the opinion you're arguing against.
 

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It's amazing to me that some people will defend Farrell by pointing to 2013 yet have no problem saying that Ben was a colossal failure.
 

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Ben had some good moves and some bad moves, and I think he doesn't get enough credit for resisting offers to acquire Betts, Boegarts and Bradley.

But Rusney was such a stupid move from jump street. I'm hard pressed to name many worse signings by Sox GMs ever.

His last solid season in the Cuban league, the minors effectively, was in 2011. Yet Ben ignored diminished production and injury filled seasons thereafter. What was Ben going on? An impressive work out and solid 2010 and 2011 Cuban numbers...in the 2014 off season. It was just insane to give anyone that kind of money with so little basis.
 
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mauf

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Why do people try to defend the Castillo decision with a body of work argument.

Castillo was an objectively horrible decision - high risk signings can NOT cost $72.5M. For $72.5M there damn well better be a reasonable floor on the players potential well above "not MLB caliber"! If you can't set that floor with conviction you pass. This is not a proven FA player dropping off a cliff or getting 1-2 years too many that you know you will regret due to "market" - this is abject failure to a level that you lose your job.

If you don't think a $72.5M investment with 0% return doesn't hurt an organization you are crazy.

When you compound this magnitude of mistake by being stingy with guys like Lester you have the recipe for failure, and you end up a teacher.
It was people on the other side who brought BC's legacy into the discussion. For a variety of reasons, I think that's dumb.

No one thinks this signing was anything other than a blunder.
 

Harry Hooper

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Ben had some good moves and some bad moves, and I think he doesn't get enough credit for resisting offers to acquire Betts, Boegarts and Bradley.

But Rusney was such a stupid move from jump street. I'm hard pressed to name many worse signings by Sox GMs ever.

His last solid season in the Cuban league, the minors effectively, was in 2011. Yet Ben ignored diminished production and injury filled seasons thereafter. What was Ben going on? An impressive work out and solid 2010 and 2011 Cuban numbers...in the 2014 off season. It was just insane to give anyone that kind of money with so little basis.
I believe the comment from one Sox scout was something like "U.S. athletes with Castillo's physique don't play baseball."