Celtics sign Amir Johnson to 2 year/$24 million deal

[radsoxfan]

To echo the above, a true tank into the top 5 picks with our own selection (barring injuries) is unlikely with Smart, IT, Sullinger, Olynyk, and Stevens. Fortunately, the Celtics can make small gains up the standings, while also having a chance at a top 5 to 10 pick next year. It's the best of both worlds.
 
Even more than last season, this is a year to hope the on court product at least inches forward, while rooting against the Mavs and Nets for lottery purposes.  More fun that way also. 
 
I will admit, Winslow falling to 10 this year (not going to happen every year) makes me think twice about how last season played out and rooting for making the playoffs.  But this time around, rooting for losses is even less likely to be helpful. It's looking more and more like next offseason will be the time to cash in our picks, cap space, and young talent.  If this is a still-rising playoff team at that point (instead of a team that has a 2014-2015 Hornet-type collapse), I think that can only help. 

 

[Cellar-Door]

To echo the above, a true tank into the top 5 picks with our own selection (barring injuries) is unlikely with Smart, IT, Sullinger, Olynyk, and Stevens. Fortunately, the Celtics can make small gains up the standings, while also having a chance at a top 5 to 10 pick next year. It's the best of both worlds.
 
Even more than last season, this is a year to hope the on court product at least inches forward, while rooting against the Mavs and Nets for lottery purposes.  More fun that way also. 
 
I will admit, Winslow falling to 10 this year (not going to happen every year) makes me think twice about how last season played out and rooting for making the playoffs.  But this time around, rooting for losses is even less likely to be helpful. It's looking more and more like next offseason will be the time to cash in our picks, cap space, and young talent.  If this is a still-rising playoff team at that point (instead of a team that has a 2014-2015 Hornet-type collapse), I think that can only help. 

Even then, Winslow dropped, but he doesn't really project as a likely franchise player, he has a lot of holes in his game that people glossed over when he had a great tournament run playing a position he likely can't play in the pros. He's far more likely to be a really good role player than a star.

 

[bowiac]

Even then, Winslow dropped, but he doesn't really project as a likely franchise player, he has a lot of holes in his game that people glossed over when he had a great tournament run playing a position he likely can't play in the pros. He's far more likely to be a really good role player than a star.

Is Jimmy Butler a franchise player?
 
That isn't to say Winslow's going to be Butler, but it's not an unreasonable hope either.

 

[Cellar-Door]

Is Jimmy Butler a franchise player?
 
That isn't to say Winslow's going to be Butler, but it's not an unreasonable hope either.

It would be a very very good outcome to me, I just didn't see the kind of offensive skills that Butler showed in college. I know the other popular comp in Kawhi Leonard, but I don't think Winslow will be the defender Kawhi is, or the rebounder.
I think his reasonable ceiling is probably a bit below those two. Somewhere between Tony Allen and Kawhi, probably not quite the defender either is, but good, decent offense, make some 3s, but not a guy you feel good giving the ball in an ISO or running the elbow P&R for 5+ times a night. Without that kind of offense I don't think you can be a franchise player unless you are terrific defensively.

 

[Kliq]

Even if we can't get into the top five (and I totally think we could if we tried hard enough) I would like to see the Celtics do-away with any players who are veterans getting playing time who are also unlikely to be on the next contending team. I was happy to watch Bass go, but the Celtics went out and replaced him with someone who was marginally better, but still not good enough to have a tremendous impact on the team. Turner should certainly be gone and you can easily talk me into dumping Sully and Bradley. Get the younger players as many live reps as possible and don't convince yourself that getting swept away in the first round of the playoffs actually means something. Maybe they can't get into the Top 5, but you could probably get into the 6,7,8 range with a bit of lottery luck. Do you feel better about the Celtics future with Rozier or Mudiay?

 

[Kliq]

It would be a very very good outcome to me, I just didn't see the kind of offensive skills that Butler showed in college. I know the other popular comp in Kawhi Leonard, but I don't think Winslow will be the defender Kawhi is, or the rebounder.
I think his reasonable ceiling is probably a bit below those two. Somewhere between Tony Allen and Kawhi, probably not quite the defender either is, but good, decent offense, make some 3s, but not a guy you feel good giving the ball in an ISO or running the elbow P&R for 5+ times a night. Without that kind of offense I don't think you can be a franchise player unless you are terrific defensively.

 
I agree, I think Winslow is a good prospect but I think some people are overstating his projected value. Who you just described was Jeff Green.

 

[bowiac]

Even if we can't get into the top five (and I totally think we could if we tried hard enough) I would like to see the Celtics do-away with any players who are veterans getting playing time who are also unlikely to be on the next contending team. I was happy to watch Bass go, but the Celtics went out and replaced him with someone who was marginally better, but still not good enough to have a tremendous impact on the team. Turner should certainly be gone and you can easily talk me into dumping Sully and Bradley. Get the younger players as many live reps as possible and don't convince yourself that getting swept away in the first round of the playoffs actually means something. Maybe they can't get into the Top 5, but you could probably get into the 6,7,8 range with a bit of lottery luck. Do you feel better about the Celtics future with Rozier or Mudiay?

I think this issue is two-fold. I'm probably both higher on this current team than you (I think the 40 wins are mostly legit, before "normal" improvement from Smart, Olynyk, and Sullinger). But there's also a good case that Amir Johnson is more than a marginal improvement over Bass, especially given he can play center. If you think the team was close to being one of the five worst in the NBA (with some effort), then I can see the idea that Amir Johnson isn't going to move the needle. But it seems to me turning 40 wins into 45 or 46 is possible this year for instance, and that's without cashing in their picks.
 
The broader issue of course is that I think there's value to putting a watchable product on the court even if you don't win the title. Amir Johnson helps, and is good enough that if you squint, you can see him being part of the team's future when they are trying to contend again.

 

[HomeRunBaker]

I expect he is game plan acquisition, perhaps even a role model, a guy that does his job, and buys into the program.

^^^^^^^THIS right here isn't getting nearly enough play. Ainge knows Amir well from the 2005 pre-draft when he worked him out in Boston and was desperately trying to buy a 2nd round pick to select him.

 

[jscola85]

This team is too good to realistically chase a top-5 pick at this point.  They are going to have to take the "Rockets before Harden" route, where Morey accumulated a bunch of talented guys in their 20s via trade, good FA pickups and mid-1st draft picks.  Just keep showing you are competitive so players aren't averse to coming to your team (see - Sixers, Lakers) and then at some point an opportunity will open itself up.
 
If it a big trade doesn't happen this year, adding Johnson plus the rookies plus some maturation from the young guys means our 40 win team should improve to the 45-48 win threshold.  To me that starts to get to the point where free agents will look and believe the team is right around the corner.  That's basically what the Suns have done and they are on the precipice of getting Aldridge to sign after wooing Chandler.

 

[Koufax]

Yes, they're probably two years away from that, barring a surprising trade.  Next year's draft should provide a good boost to the roster but those kids will need at least a year to mature.

 

[bowiac]

Yes, they're probably two years away from that, barring a surprising trade.  Next year's draft should provide a good boost to the roster but those kids will need at least a year to mature.

I think we should expect to see a pretty sizable trade sometime soon actually. They've just got too many pieces to give them all minutes (Smart, Olynyk, Sullinger, Thomas, Crowder, Zeller, Johnson, Bradley, Rozier, Hunter and Jerebko). You can put Hunter and Rozier in the D-league, but even then, that's nine guys.

 

[zenter]

I think we should expect to see a pretty sizable trade sometime soon actually. They've just got too many pieces to give them all minutes (Smart, Olynyk, Sullinger, Thomas, Crowder, Zeller, Johnson, Bradley, Rozier, Hunter and Jerebko). You can put Hunter and Rozier in the D-league, but even then, that's nine guys.

 
Poor Evan Turner quietly cries in the corner.

 

[Eddie Jurak]

I think we should expect to see a pretty sizable trade sometime soon actually. They've just got too many pieces to give them all minutes (Smart, Olynyk, Sullinger, Thomas, Crowder, Zeller, Johnson, Bradley, Rozier, Hunter and Jerebko). You can put Hunter and Rozier in the D-league, but even then, that's nine guys.

There's a lot of redundancy there, yet all of those guys are different. For example, Olynyk, Sullinger, and Zeller have common deficiencies but bring different strengths to the table. It will be interesting to see how Danny resolves the logjam.

 

[bowiac]

Poor Evan Turner quietly cries in the corner.

Honestly, I forgot about him, but he's also not a guy you need to give minutes to. You don't need to give minutes to Jerebko either, but they just signed him, so clearly they've got some kind of plans for him.

 

[Eddie Jurak]

Honestly, I forgot about him, but he's also not a guy you need to give minutes to. You don't need to give minutes to Jerebko either, but they just signed him, so clearly they've got some kind of plans for him.

That depends. Turner was necessary last year because neither of Smart and Bradley could be a primary ball handler. Turner only becomes superfluous if Smart, Rozier, and Thomas can take over that role.

 

[Cellar-Door]

Honestly, I forgot about him, but he's also not a guy you need to give minutes to. You don't need to give minutes to Jerebko either, but they just signed him, so clearly they've got some kind of plans for him.

The guy you have to think they want to give minutes to that you forgot is James Young. I'd guess he's in front of Hunter in the 2/3 swing spot unless Hunter is amazing in camp.

 

[zenter]

Honestly, I forgot about him, but he's also not a guy you need to give minutes to. You don't need to give minutes to Jerebko either, but they just signed him, so clearly they've got some kind of plans for him.

 

That depends. Turner was necessary last year because neither of Smart and Bradley could be a primary ball handler. Turner only becomes superfluous if Smart, Rozier, and Thomas can take over that role.

 
He's too good to not be a rotation player getting ~10 MPG. I mean, he's not lived up to his potential, but he is (as bowiac rightly notes) more impactful than Jerebko.

 

[Cellar-Door]

 
 
He's too good to not be a rotation player getting ~10 MPG. I mean, he's not lived up to his potential, but he is (as bowiac rightly notes) more impactful than Jerebko.

No. No he is not. He's a really bad basketball player, who murders every offense he plays on.

 

[bowiac]

Uh yeah - I don't think Turner is better than Jerebko. I think Turner is awful, like, unclear if he should be in the NBA bad. I assumed he was a steal-tank signing by Ainge last year to be honest. I still think that really. I don't think Jerebko is likely part of this team's future either, but he's at least shown signs of life.
 
I did forget about Young too however. That's ten guys then, although I don't like Young very much as a prospect.

 

[zenter]

Uh yeah - I don't think Turner is better than Jerebko. I think Turner is awful, like, unclear if he should be in the NBA bad. I assumed he was a steal-tank signing by Ainge last year to be honest. I still think that really. I don't think Jerebko is likely part of this team's future either, but he's at least shown signs of life.

 
I guess I'm not seeing the huge problem. In a league where Phil Pressey (admittedly on shorter dollars) gets real minutes, I don't see how Turner does not. In a limited role, he offers value. I'm not saying that he's the best fit for the C's or any great shakes, but I don't see how he isn't in the rotation if he sticks with the Cs through this offseason.

 

[bowiac]

I guess I'm not seeing the huge problem. In a league where Phil Pressey (admittedly on shorter dollars) gets real minutes, I don't see how Turner does not. In a limited role, he offers value. I'm not saying that he's the best fit for the C's or any great shakes, but I don't see how he isn't in the rotation if he sticks with the Cs through this offseason.

I don't understand how comparing him to Phil Pressey is a good thing. Pressey doesn't make any money, spent much of the year in the D-league, and is a pretty good bet to be out to the NBA in about a minute. He's not long for the league either.
 
We're in agreement that Phil Pressey and Evan Turner are similar quality players. Do the Celtics have some commitment to giving Pressey 10-12 minutes a game this year?

 

[Cellar-Door]

 
I guess I'm not seeing the huge problem. In a league where Phil Pressey (admittedly on shorter dollars) gets real minutes, I don't see how Turner does not. In a limited role, he offers value. I'm not saying that he's the best fit for the C's or any great shakes, but I don't see how he isn't in the rotation if he sticks with the Cs through this offseason.

He's roughly as good as Phil Pressey who is most likely going to be cut by the Celtics and go off to ply his trade in Europe or the D-League. His position on almost every team in the league (except Philly who is trying to have non-NBA skill players in their rotation) should be at best last man on the bench. That the Celtics had massive roster turnover and played Pressey some minutes  doesn't mean that a team should plan to do that, it was a symptom of injuries, trades etc. Unless a team is trying to lose games they should never make Evan Turner a part of their rotation.

 

[zenter]

I don't understand how comparing him to Phil Pressey is a good thing. Pressey doesn't make any money, spent much of the year in the D-league, and is a pretty good bet to be out to the NBA in about a minute. He's not long for the league either.
 
We're in agreement that Phil Pressey and Evan Turner are similar quality players. Do the Celtics have some commitment to giving Pressey 10-12 minutes a game this year?

 

He's roughly as good as Phil Pressey who is most likely going to be cut by the Celtics and go off to ply his trade in Europe or the D-League. His position on almost every team in the league (except Philly who is trying to have non-NBA skill players in their rotation) should be at best last man on the bench. That the Celtics had massive roster turnover and played Pressey some minutes  doesn't mean that a team should plan to do that, it was a symptom of injuries, trades etc. Unless a team is trying to lose games they should never make Evan Turner a part of their rotation.

 
Okay okay. I've been wrong before and I'm more than happy to be wrong about this.
 
I just try to remember that there were just as many teams that were as bad/worse than the Cs as there were better teams. In that context (with turnover/injuries/etc always looming), I think it's perfectly reasonable for Turner to argue he deserves ~10 min per game in the NBA in a season after he got 25+ MPG.

 

[luckiestman]

I'm interested to see what happens with Turner. His stats suck but the team won a lot of games with him as the primary ball handler.

 

[HomeRunBaker]

We have too many guaranteed contracts so players will be moved. Turner has to be at the top of the list as he no longer has a role as initiator of the offense (which is necessary when Smart starts at the 1) with Isaiah and Rozier here to begin the season.

I expect Thornton to be stashed overseas so he won't count on the 15 and wouldn't be surprised to hear that Ainge isn't working with Mickey's people to do same as he isn't close to being an NBA player.

 

[mcpickl]

I think we should expect to see a pretty sizable trade sometime soon actually. They've just got too many pieces to give them all minutes (Smart, Olynyk, Sullinger, Thomas, Crowder, Zeller, Johnson, Bradley, Rozier, Hunter and Jerebko). You can put Hunter and Rozier in the D-league, but even then, that's nine guys.

I agree, I think Ainge has to be trying to package Bradley and one of his bigs and maybe some picks for a wing.
 
Might be making to much out of the Butler connection, but Gordon Hayward still makes the most sense to me.
 
Utah has no shot at contending this year, even getting a playoff spot would be tough, and after this season Utah would only have Hayward under control for one more year before he hits UFA since he has an opt out for 2017-18. Might be enough there for Utah to move him now, though it could be a year too early for them to be thinking about it.

 

[lovegtm]

I agree, I think Ainge has to be trying to package Bradley and one of his bigs and maybe some picks for a wing.
 
Might be making to much out of the Butler connection, but Gordon Hayward still makes the most sense to me.
 
Utah has no shot at contending this year, even getting a playoff spot would be tough, and after this season Utah would only have Hayward under control for one more year before he hits UFA since he has an opt out for 2017-18. Might be enough there for Utah to move him now, though it could be a year too early for them to be thinking about it.

Pretty hard for me to see Utah moving Hayward before Favors. Favors has more value to another team than he does to Utah, and Hayward fills a pretty big need for the Jazz in terms of scoring/creation. Favors is also in a similar contractual situation, although his deal is up in 18-19, not 17-18.

 

[Swedgin]

I agree, I think Ainge has to be trying to package Bradley and one of his bigs and maybe some picks for a wing.
 
Might be making to much out of the Butler connection, but Gordon Hayward still makes the most sense to me.
 
Utah has no shot at contending this year, even getting a playoff spot would be tough, and after this season Utah would only have Hayward under control for one more year before he hits UFA since he has an opt out for 2017-18. Might be enough there for Utah to move him now, though it could be a year too early for them to be thinking about it.

Hard to see Utah making Hayward available for that kind of package.   Given his improved play last season and the skyrocketing cap his contract is now at the very least fair, if not a slight bargain.   Moreover the Jazz run their offense through him and do not have a need at the 4 or 5.   What they need is a league average pg (unless of course Exum makes a leap).  
 
I think they have a solid chance of making the playoffs given how well they played in second half last year (while force feeding minutes to Exum).  Portland is clearly out and I think Dallas is not far behind.   The Pelicans depend entirely on the health of Davis.   Presumably OKC returns and grabs one spot, leaving Phoenix and Utah to fight it out.   

 

[PedroKsBambino]

Just to note it, it's kind of silly to suggest Turner was signed to tank given the rest of the moves that were made during the year---clearly, the plan was not to tank.    
 
To me, that move fits with Ainge's affinity for guys with a pedigree, and Stevens used him in an interesting (and different) way than Turner had been used before.  I don't think the results of that experiment suggest that he's a useful player, but it was worth trying to see.  This team should be experimenting given where they are.