Celtics Trade Timelord, Brogdon, and picks for Jrue Holiday
- Thread starter DeadlySplitter
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White also played 28 mins/game. I wonder how many of those 37 averaged more minutes. Strictly from the eye test, he's a better than average rebounding guard.
I think this is where the counting numbers on rebounding stats are misleading.
The Celtics might not have had guys pile up big rebounding numbers, but they rebound well as a team because they box out as well as anyone.
Smart is always among the best at this for guards, Grant was also really good at it while being undersized.
If everybody boxes their guy out, one of your teammates should have position to secure the ball. Doesn't matter who gets it, as long as a guy wearing green does.
It's why I've always argued against people that say Smart is a bad rebounder. Rebounding isn't just skying over everybody to grab the ball.
The coach only plays 7 guys anyway, might as well make them the best 7 you can.
In all seriousness, they still have a ton of draft capital after this trade. They have a slew of second rounders (2 in 2024 alone plus a heavily protected one that’s unlikely to convey) and all of their first rounders for the next 5 drafts unless you think the ‘28 Spurs swap is in play. The FO clearly believes it’s more valuable to turn late first rounders into NBA players when you have a contending core. The only issue I see really is the lack of salary diversity for trade ballast, outside of the Grant Williams TPE you’re pretty much looking at pupu platter trades to fill in the last rotation spot.
Most of the guys in front of him averaged more minutes, but this cuts both ways (most of the guys behind him averaged fewer minutes). Among guards, he was 45th in TRB% and 38th in rebounds per 100. He's not bad, but he's also nothing special.
And FWIW for my eye test, I've never really taken note of him as a rebounder. I think we're gonna have some trouble rebounding next year with TL gone, but it's a worthy tradeoff considering.
Per game rebounds aren't really a good way to measure rebounding skill. Gimme those reb% numbers!
Smart was, by far, the best guard in the league in the "box out" stat that NBA tracks, and he was near the top of the league among all players regardless of position.
I’m not concerned with the team rebounding. In todays NBA with all the switching and big men shooting 3s, having guards/ballhandlers that can rebound offsets a lot of issues from not having a big that is a dominant rebounder. Jrue helps with this as he is a great rebounding guard, Tatum is excellent, and everyone else in the top 6 is at least average and has good positional size so potentially could get better (except for Al).
There were a lot of reports in the playoffs last year that
- the players pushed to bring back 2 bigs against Philly
- players lobbied for Grant to play
- staff wanted to play Hauser more but it was infeasible wrt internal team politics
Well, guess who's gone now. I wish they had Grant (more so than Rob), but they think Hauser is ready for more minutes, and if he isn't, they'll play Brisset/Svi/Walsh.
There was enough smoke about Tatum lobbying for his binkies that I'm pretty sure there was some fire, and Brad did a good job turning those guys into elite NBA players instead of keeping the more marginal guys who were causing chemistry issues.
I also didn't think the Brogdon stuff was real, but it's sounding more and more like he was a locker room issue. Calling out the team's effort with the "defense" he played? Cmon, man.
- the players pushed to bring back 2 bigs against Philly
- players lobbied for Grant to play
- staff wanted to play Hauser more but it was infeasible wrt internal team politics
Well, guess who's gone now. I wish they had Grant (more so than Rob), but they think Hauser is ready for more minutes, and if he isn't, they'll play Brisset/Svi/Walsh.
There was enough smoke about Tatum lobbying for his binkies that I'm pretty sure there was some fire, and Brad did a good job turning those guys into elite NBA players instead of keeping the more marginal guys who were causing chemistry issues.
I also didn't think the Brogdon stuff was real, but it's sounding more and more like he was a locker room issue. Calling out the team's effort with the "defense" he played? Cmon, man.
Don't forget Jrue. He's been arguably the best rebounding PG in the game for the last decade. In todays game of missed 3's creating long rebounds the days of having a big gobble up the majority of the boards are long gone. It truly is more of a team effort now and on top of that most teams retreat off a shot rather than crash for offensive boards.
Edit: Missed that others already addressed this.
Stevens did have a moment this offseason where he could revamp the roster around Tatum and Brown. The finals loss in 2022, the disappointing end in 2023, and the decision to pay Brown got him that, assuming the Celtics owners were willing to invest (and they have shown that they were). Also the bringing in of Cassell and the General. All of those moves taken together are 1) a statement of belief in Tatum and Brown, 2) an acknowledgment that the rest of the roster and the coaching staff needed upgrades, 3) a willingness to break out the checkbook and make those upgrades. This is how you double down on your stars. At the same time, Tatum and Brown have no business complaining about any binkies being shipped out. They had 2 chances at a title with the prior core and failed.
Totally agree with all that.
One thing regarding the binkies: the thing NBA stars like more then binkies is playing with other elite players. Brad did a great job there, and I think the Jays will be happy with this.
I think this ascribes far too much intent to the way this offseason played out. Acquiring Porzingis was a rare opportunity to upgrade talent in a very significant way and lock in a very good player on a reasonable extension. If that trade had included Brogdon as originally structured, the Jrue trade never happens. Instead the Clippers pulled out at the last minute and Stevens was forced to add Smart to that trade. Grant Williams leaving was a product of him simply not being worth the price he was paid and cap realities (plus Hauser probably already being better and maybe a bit of Stevens forcing the players to accept that). Having lost Smart, Jrue being available was too good an opportunity to pass up.
Still, if you have Brad an opportunity to restart this offseason and have the Porzingis trade play out with Brogdon, I think he takes it and doesn’t make the Jrue trade. The team would be a little less talented in its top 5, but younger, with less disruption, and with Timelord still here. Brad was definitely not trying to get rid of Smart or Timelord, he was seizing opportunities to add talent where and how they manifested.
Yep. KP is an elite rim protector and Jrue is an elite defender. I don’t think the overall D has suffered at all, and the team has gotten MUCH better offensively.
Is Griffin really going to retire at this point? For sure, nothing is guaranteed about the Celtics’ chances of success, but do you really give up a really good chance of a title?
The other thing I would say is that the Celtics should approach the regular season like the preseason. We’ve got an awesome top 5, but are pretty thin after that. No reason to have anyone go down from some meaningless game against the Wizards. Heck, I’d be even willing to forfeit all the games against Philly to save the wear and tear on our bigs.
Lots of minutes available for Jordan Walsh. Let’s hope he comes up big.
The other thing I would say is that the Celtics should approach the regular season like the preseason. We’ve got an awesome top 5, but are pretty thin after that. No reason to have anyone go down from some meaningless game against the Wizards. Heck, I’d be even willing to forfeit all the games against Philly to save the wear and tear on our bigs.
Lots of minutes available for Jordan Walsh. Let’s hope he comes up big.
Between the new tournament and Silver's new rules about sitting healthy players, the Celtics stars will be getting a lot of playing time. And coaches are hardwired to win games with whatever lineup is on the floor.
Still, there will be minutes available for the bench; it will be up to the individual players to grab the opportunity.
Brad is going to deal the Celtics' late firsts as long as it can land players that will help them contend.
I expect they'll use Maine/2-ways to opportunistically develop cheap roster depth (see Hauser & Kornet).
If Queta or Scrubb take the next step, dangle a multi-year, non-gtd NBA contract for their age 24-26 seasons.
Rinse, repeat.
I think this is a big risk. The goal for this regular season should be to set up for the playoff run. That means 1) not leaning too hard on the starters and 2) developing or aquiring some semblance of a playoff bench.
Mazzulla showed that last year he was too focused on regular season wins. This year, he's got the double edged sword of having a much better coaching staff but also having his potential replacement(s) right there on his coaching staff. And he's got a better team 1 through 5, but a weak/inexperienced bench.
He needs to understand his job.
Lots of regular-season bench minutes for Hauser/Kornet (& PP)
Everything we saw last year, especially from Sam tells us the C's will be more than fine.
They have 5 1st rounders and 8 2nd rounders in the next 5 drafts. What are you talking about?
In that case, I will pile on and agree that they should really de-prioritize the regular season.
Homecourt means very little for this team, and the Finals is going to come down to Boston or Milwaukee, barring key injuries. So it doesn't matter which round you face the Bucks in.
I'm surprised this back and forth has gone on so long, with wingspan and height, without anyone introducing ... standing reach!
Holiday: 8' 4.5"
Smart: 8' 3"
As for the trade ... biting my tongue. I really liked Rob, and was hoping against hope he might have a good season this year. I loved Brogdon's slashing game (though White has some of that too), though Brad's hand may have been forced if Brogdon was turning into a malcontent. I was more excited about the Porzingis trade; I thought that one was a clear home run.
How is Jrue against defending quicker guards? That is where the Celtics have really struggled in recent years. Of course, no one is really shutting down Trae Young types, but it seems like they have absolutely killed the Celtics for awhile now.
we're just ignoring the team that's gone to 2 of the last 4 Finals from the East? They haven't gotten any worse.
And if you start saying "let's punt the Philly games", "let's punt the Bucks games", "let's punt the Heat games"... pretty soon you haven't challenged yourselves enough and end up with your seed falling enough that you play 3 elite opponents in the conference (as the Heat did last year) instead of 1-2.
My plan would be to give each of the top 6 at least a 2-week in-season vacation. Hellenic Flu, somehow keeps going around. Back problems, y'know? But give them enough time to rest and prevent issues down the road. We can schedule around having everyone available for certain key games, and avoid having more than one of the top 6 out at a time (barring real injuries). Can give Porzingis two of those vacations if we like.
We sure about this? They lost 2 key parts of their rotation this offseason and a third who was, generously, right up against the expiration date the last two years is now a year older.
They lost Vincent and Strus. They got a lot worse (pending further moves).
I will never take the Heat lightly, but I don't think the Celtics should be planning the season around avoiding their bracket or anything.
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZktAgRTznY
Marks talks about the Celtic's inability to combine salaries next year at the end of this post
Also Jason Glushon (JB's agent) reps Jrue, Marks feels that Brad has back-channeled a Holiday extension (so this isn't a rental0
Marks talks about the Celtic's inability to combine salaries next year at the end of this post
Also Jason Glushon (JB's agent) reps Jrue, Marks feels that Brad has back-channeled a Holiday extension (so this isn't a rental0
And if you're doing that, it makes *MORE* sense to GFIN now, and also to get contracts that you could trade with the picks you get for Jaylen to get someone new to pair with Tatum.
Of the heat's playoff rotation - by minutes, Adebayo, Herro, Strus, Butler, Martin, Vincent and Lowry, plus occasionally D. Robinson - they've lost Vincent and Strus, and yes Lowry is old. Strus was sign-and-traded to Cleveland for a bag of balls, not sure how much positive asset value he had in the first place, and they had to staple picks to Oladipo to get him out of town to the Thunder. Vincent signed with the Lakers for 3 / $33 and is rated as a negative value player (-1.13) by DARKO (as is Strus), so it may have been addition by subtraction for them. Meanwhile Miami had several prospects level up, while also signing Josh Richardson as a Vincent replacement and Thomas Bryant as an Adebayo backup.
Vincent was critical for them in the playoffs. Maybe they think he won't be that guy again, but Richardson has little chance of being what Vincent was then. Strus was also a big part of their rotation.
Windy saying Philly wasn’t one of the teams that Holiday was willing to extend with, really caught my attention. A lot of times, that’s because of uncertainty over that teams best player being there long term. Everyone knows how close Embiid and Tatum are, just saying lol.
ELITE. We have by far the best defensive backcourt in the league. And because they are both amazing at navigating screens, makes it a lot harder for offenses to be able to force mismatches with Porzingis in space.
View: https://twitter.com/HoopsEmpire_/status/1708561868229345378?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1708561868229345378%7Ctwgr%5Ef0c42e8179ecb5a427870b73cbc1c5772b118f4b%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fforums.realgm.com%2Fboards%2Fviewtopic.php%3Ft%3D2322241start%3D260
They didn't sign Brown this year to trade him next summer. 2025 is a possibility, I do agree.
At the very least, having Jaylen's contract to deal puts every available star in play. It's funny that one of the best fits for Jaylen to fetch assets would be Portland--it sucks they re-signed Jerami.
How sure are you about that?
Brad is completely ruthless, and I doubt he'd hesitate to trade Jaylen if the right guy came available next summer.
A lot of nba people think multiple superstars could ask out by next summer. If that’s the case, Jaylen will likely get offered up, IMO.
Yes, and one great thing about his contract is that, even with the 100% matching at the 2nd apron, there is no one he doesn't match.
This off-season showed that Stevens isn't a tinkerer. As long as he is in the seat and he has Tatum as a centerpiece, Stevens is likely going to do whatever is necessary to maximize the talent around him.
I absolutely think one implication of Porzingis/JH being here is Brown is more tradeable than he was in a different roster configuration, as soon as he's eligible to be traded. I don't predict or expect it but see no reason to artificially assume it can't happen or until when (past the trade restriction as a newly sgned player, obviously)
It's wild to look back at the roster he inherited (including the Kemba contract situation) and the roster he has now, with only one future pick owed.
I’m thinking Wyc is all in, for the next few years at least.
Of course if this team is a juggernaut and wins a title, a move like this would be less likely.
Zach Harper of The Athletic gives the trade a C from the Celtics perspective:
https://theathletic.com/4918052/2023/10/01/jrue-holiday-trade-grades-celtics-blazers/?source=dailyemail&campaign=601983
His logic:
https://theathletic.com/4918052/2023/10/01/jrue-holiday-trade-grades-celtics-blazers/?source=dailyemail&campaign=601983
His logic:
If the only way you can criticize a trade is to use rhetorical sleight-of-hand to turn "possibility of health problems", which every team has, into "certainty of health problems"... then it's a pretty damn good trade imo.
I read this same article and was kind of amazed at how bad it was. I have no idea how you could give this trade anything below a B.
I get the idea that TimeLord is a hedge against Porzingis and Horford's health plus when healthy and right, he is an actual game changer but.......that ignores the fact that he's basically never healthy and has knees that are getting worse by the minute.
EDIT: @slamminsammya was way more succinct in his response below.