Celtics vs 76ers, Round 2 Discussion
- Thread starter DeadlySplitter
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I’m guessing part of the no timeout philosophy has to do with not letting the defense get set. Another part is the trust the coach is putting in the players. I think people can disagree but I get the purpose. As someone who likes more flow in the game, I actually prefer it.
I think you actually nailed it. He’s overvaluing giving the opposing coach a chance to make substitutions.
The Sixers are a team where you shouldn’t fear that. Tobias Harris is a weak defender, Tyrese Maxey is a weak defender, James Harden is an awful defender. They’re not going to sub out all 3 of them. I’m not sure he would sub out one but let’s say he does sub out Maxey for Melton. You still have two players that you can absolutely attack with a set play
This is it.
There is going to be ten times more complaining about the last offensive possession, where the last defensive possession was the biggest mistake.
Leaving a wide open corner three shooter to double Embiid in the paint after he picked up his dribble up 2 with less than 24 seconds left is an awful decision.
As long as Tatum doesn't foul, the worst that can happen is Embiid hits a shot over Tatum to tie the game and you have the last shot to win the game or go to double OT. Can't leave your man there.
This was the problem. I'm fine with the no-TO stuff, but if they are going to do it Tatum cannot make a mistake like that. And, in his after game comments, he still doesn't get it - he says he should have passed it earlier, not drove earlier. Tatum's execution needs to be better. If it can't be better then Joe should call the time out.
Setting aside the end-game scenario, what I saw this game that worried me is that Harden remembered that Jaylen Brown cannot actually defend him off the dribble and utterly dominated our defense off the dribble most of the game. I think we may need to adjust that defensive look again to feature Smart a bit more and shift Jaylen to Harris or Tucker primarily.
Seemed to me that JB was the only one who bothered him and he was going by Brogdon, Smart, and Al at will. Probably would have had him on Harden all afternoon if he didn’t pick up two quick ones.
The Celtics are 2-2 despite having taken 7 quarters off off playing defense. All of game 1 and the first three quarters of game 4. Then they finally got iy together and played their best defensive quarter of the series, and it ended up just not being enough. One more quarter of defense in this sires and it is 3-1. Two more - one each in games 1 and 4 - it is over.
The good news is that if they stop fucking doing this they should be able to take 2 of 3 against this Philly team.
The bad news, possibly, would be that I trust Doc to make adjustments as the series goes on way more than I do Joe, so, relatively speaking the Sixers may be a better match for the Celtics late.
The other problem is that James Harden is one of the all time playoff underachievers among NBA greats. But, his excellence in games 1 and 4 carried the Sixers. He's closer to the end of the trial than the beginning, maybe he will finally rise aove what he usually is and carry the Sixers to a series win. Today he disproved the idea that it was just the long rest that allowed him to perform in game 1.
Anyway, if the Celtics do not advance, this will be a failure that falls right in line with what the Bruins just did.
The good news is that if they stop fucking doing this they should be able to take 2 of 3 against this Philly team.
The bad news, possibly, would be that I trust Doc to make adjustments as the series goes on way more than I do Joe, so, relatively speaking the Sixers may be a better match for the Celtics late.
The other problem is that James Harden is one of the all time playoff underachievers among NBA greats. But, his excellence in games 1 and 4 carried the Sixers. He's closer to the end of the trial than the beginning, maybe he will finally rise aove what he usually is and carry the Sixers to a series win. Today he disproved the idea that it was just the long rest that allowed him to perform in game 1.
Anyway, if the Celtics do not advance, this will be a failure that falls right in line with what the Bruins just did.
You would call a timeout in the middle of Tatum beating his man off the dribble and getting into the lane? We got an open look that happened to be .2 seconds late. The issue was the timing of it all but it was clear we wanted to take the final shot which we should be doing with both these offenses.
Once Tatum went of course not, but I thought it was obvious that he went too late. I would have liked to see him call timeout once that became clear to at least set something up to guarantee a shot. Bigger issue was just Tatum going too late. Biggest issue was Jaylen having his head up his ass on defense the previous possession.
I don't think he went to late I just didn't think he expected the entire defense to collapse but our spacing wasn't great. If he goes sooner and scores we leave them with :03 or :04 on the clock which is what we don't want to do. It wasn't as if the timing of the play was egregious.....I mean it literally went to replay.
What?!?!? Didn't they realize the value in saving your timeouts until the game is over?
I would have preferred Brogdon over Smart for the last possession in regulation and OT. That offensive upgrade to me is greater than Maxey being subbed out. If they called a TO, inserted Brogdon, maybe the entire defense doesn’t collapse on to Tatum because someone would have been attached to Brogdon. The defense was obviously more than happy to leave Marcus and live with the result. Ultimately the Cs were behind because one of the sixers best shooters was left wide open (not Tucker, not Maxey, etc). Would have liked to see if that was the case for Celtics on one of those last possessions, but he was on the bench and we got two attempts by Smart instead.
The entire Sixers defense has been hyper focused on Tatum in these late game situations so he should have been ready. It was clear as day once he picked up the ball. I wish he would have risen up for a shot on Maxey after he got by Harris.
I think he was ready, he just lost his clock sense and held a half second too long to make sure Smart was as wide open as possible.
I dunno. It was a dangerous pass. Both Embiid and Harden had a chance to deflect it and end the game. I was holding my breath on that live and not even focused on the shot clock, which ended up being the key issue. But, we’ve now had 2 key plays in last 4 games from Tatum where he lost his clock sense at a key moment. It’s something he needs to figure out because more of these moments are surely coming.
The whole waiting until the absolute last second thing is so dumb. These guys realize it takes a couple seconds for a shot to reach the basket, yes? There’s really no excuse for leaving such a thin margin when you NEED points above all else. If it were tied I can understand the last shot or bust mentality.
There have been so many of these moments in these snatch defeat from the jaws of victory losses where they just completely lose their heads, forget the situation, and make a backbreaking error. And almost every player on the team has contributed. I’d be much happier if it were simply a matter of missing shots. That happens. This kind of stuff, though, can’t keep happening if you want to win a title.
All that said, have to like their chances in G5. Only one team in this series has had a chance to win every game so far and I don’t see that changing.
There have been so many of these moments in these snatch defeat from the jaws of victory losses where they just completely lose their heads, forget the situation, and make a backbreaking error. And almost every player on the team has contributed. I’d be much happier if it were simply a matter of missing shots. That happens. This kind of stuff, though, can’t keep happening if you want to win a title.
All that said, have to like their chances in G5. Only one team in this series has had a chance to win every game so far and I don’t see that changing.
Brogdon was on the floor for the one at the end of regulation, and the entire defense collapsed on Tatum. Brogdon just stood still behind the three point line and therefore wasn't open.
Started OT too, but miscommunicated a switch with Jaylen, giving Maxey a layup. Then committed two fouls on the next possession while being hunted by Harden and removed from the game.
Brogdon has become a sneaky awful defender.
I don’t think it’s sneaky anymore. When Georges fucking Niang is blowing by you like a turnstile, you’re just plain awful. Hardens seeking him out whenever they are on the floor together
My bad, I just rewatched that last possession of regulation , you are right - he was out there. Although Harden was guarding him and he didn’t totally collapse, he hung out at the foul line just playing Harden defense
Did we watch the same game?
JB wasn't on Harden for the majority of the first half because of fouls. Then they continually set screens and tried to switch to get JB off of Harden.
Brogdon, Smart, And Al were routinely burned by Harden on the switches or when JB was off of him.
Have you had a change or heart/philosophy on this? I recall you being pissed when Kemba left .5 on the clock against Toronto by feeding Theis for the dunk.
If Boston had won 74 games and bowed out in the second round to a low seed, maybe.
I think we’ll win, but a loss would be devastating considering the following:
•Atlanta winning play-in
•Milwaukee out
•Quite possibly missing both Cleveland and NYK, who both gave them fits this season.
They are the deepest, most talented roster and have been given a golden path.
Not so hard, I've done it hundreds of times. Er...wait....(insert "they suck ya back in" gif)
Yep, I don't really get the "Tatum just baaarely mis-timed it" thing. Literally it's true in that the shot left Smart's hand .2 seconds late or whatever. But you have to factor that in when you're dilly-dallying around before starting your move. It's way more important to get a good shot than to make sure the other team doesn't have 2 seconds to throw a length of court pass amid chaos. In that situation you have to leave time for a potential pass or a potential rebound/2nd shot way more than timing it so there's virtually 0 seconds on the clock.
Karalis faults the final play execution.
https://www.bostonsportsjournal.com/2023/05/07/karalis-celtics-have-tons-of-potential-but-their-flaws-were-on-display-in-crucial-moments-of-game-4
With 1.5 on the clock and his momentum taking him the other way, he floated a pass to Smart that was just soft and off enough to take up all the remaining time. [/quote]
Tatum didn't know what he wanted to do there, gradually gave away all of his options except the one he didn't have time to make.
If that is the best execution the team can do, they should call time out.
https://www.bostonsportsjournal.com/2023/05/07/karalis-celtics-have-tons-of-potential-but-their-flaws-were-on-display-in-crucial-moments-of-game-4
I agree with him.
At 4 … 3 … 2 … Tatum wasted every option he had. He didn’t give it to Derrick White, who was all alone at the top of the key. He didn’t rise up for a shot.
With 1.5 on the clock and his momentum taking him the other way, he floated a pass to Smart that was just soft and off enough to take up all the remaining time. [/quote]
Tatum didn't know what he wanted to do there, gradually gave away all of his options except the one he didn't have time to make.
If that is the best execution the team can do, they should call time out.
Tatum can be correctly blamed here. But…. I wonder about why he wasn’t more prepared. They should have done so many dress rehearsals for this moment that it becomes muscle memory. Practice running it with 15 seconds. Now practice with 12 seconds. 8 seconds. Etc. keep drilling it until success rate of a good shot attempt is nearly certain, while mixing up the defense of it.
My gut says CJM is doing too much trust in the players. Trust but verify is the right approach. There’s little question to me that they have not practiced those scenarios enough where they become second nature
My gut says CJM is doing too much trust in the players. Trust but verify is the right approach. There’s little question to me that they have not practiced those scenarios enough where they become second nature
Tatum didn't know what he wanted to do there, gradually gave away all of his options except the one he didn't have time to make.
If that is the best execution the team can do, they should call time out.
[/QUOTE]
Not only that but it was a dangerous pass to make. He had to thread it through Embiid in the paint and Harden on the perimeter. And the reason why there wasn’t enough time for Smart is because he had to throw it across his body, which slowed the ball up just enough to make the shot not count. He had a chance to rise up for a shot once he got past Harris but didn’t take it. That’s 2 straight losses where his indecision has really cost this team. He was decisive the play prior and nailed a 3. When this team overthinks, they generally get in trouble.
I get your point but the situation is a bit different
- Celtics/Raptors were tied, so there is less harm in absolutely 100% ensuring the final shot
- Toronto had a timeout where Philly did not, so they could advance the ball
If you are losing, you 100% unambiguously have to get a shot. I am not a game theorist but the only guaranteed ways to lose in that situation are to not attempt a shot or not get fouled (and in this situation it would have taken an armed mugging to draw a whistle). If you leave half a tick on the clock and lose on a 3/4 court prayer, you tip your cap and lament the other ways they screwed up. Not getting a shot at all is way worse.
As long as they win the series it will be forgiven as it was against Toronto.
I couldn’t watch the game but reading this very measured bunch of threads I want to make sure I have this straight:
1) Tatum isn’t Bird
2) Jaylen isn’t smart
3) Smart isn’t good
4) Mazzola should be fired.
Do I have that right?
1) Tatum isn’t Bird
2) Jaylen isn’t smart
3) Smart isn’t good
4) Mazzola should be fired.
Do I have that right?
No.
1. Tatum isn't Bird (or at least in contention for Celtic Rushmore alongside Bird)... yet. He may never but it is early for him, career-wise.
2. Jaylen's best defense is on-ball. His weakness is off-ball responsibilities and swtiching decisions.
3. What Smart lacks in talent he tries to make up for in will, with some successes and failures. He would never fall prey to the indicisiveness we saw from Tatum on the last play.
4. Mazulla should not be fired, but he might be a liability during this playoff run.
To me these tough series game endings are about:
Not sure how much this is on Mazzulla but it's a coach's job to continually improve his team's play, and not just be like "well we're satisfied, just didn't go our way". Brown has done the same thing several times before IIRC - I remember he doubled and it cost them a gut punch game a few years ago against the Wizards.
- Putting your great players in a position to win; and
- Denying the other team the opportunity to do the same
Not sure how much this is on Mazzulla but it's a coach's job to continually improve his team's play, and not just be like "well we're satisfied, just didn't go our way". Brown has done the same thing several times before IIRC - I remember he doubled and it cost them a gut punch game a few years ago against the Wizards.
Mazzulla takes a lot of heat but sometimes your best players just need to win games and stop making these constant mental errors. The same thing happens over and over again and we get the same meaningless quotes after the game to the effect of “whoops…my bad”.
In the final 2 plays, we had massive brain farts from our two best players. I was on team timeout but maybe it doesn’t make a difference at all. The root problem is that Tatum is being indecisive and Jaylen continues to show very low IQ on defense.
It’s not a winning formula and I hope they can escape this round and not have to play the “what if” game for another summer. Because what else can Brad do? He has his 2 stars surrounded by quality veteran players who fit their style perfectly. It’s on Jaylen and Jayson to take the final step to get that ring.
I think a coach could work with his team (and his stars) on sharper end of game execution. Tatum (and the team around him) were too loose at the end of OT and it cost them.
I also think a coach could prevail on his team to not abandon its defensive intensity for one whole game and then 3 quarters of another game, out of 4 games total.
To me, the upside of keeping Melton off the court is outweighed by the downside that this cast of characters will have an issue executing in the final seconds. In February v. the Sixers, Joe bucked his own philosophy and called a TO, they set up a play, executed, and won the game. Yes, a timeout isn't some magic automatic win button, but why not go with what's worked in the past? Give your players the best chance to succeed.
Agree with your overall post. But don't those two opening sentences contradict each other to a certain degree? If those same mental errors are happening over and over again some of that heat does fall on the head coach. I'd love to know what was said in the TO before the Harden 3...I am not a basketball expert by any means but shouldn't it have just been "hey if Embiid takes a decently contested 2 we can live with that. But never in any circumstances leave the hottest shooter in the game in an effort to double team him." My guess is something along those lines WAS said, and JB still effed up. As far as the TO's not used with a chance to set up a winning play, I personally would've liked him to have used one...but understand the rationale for not using it. That said, on the last play in OT I think once it became clear they looked a bit clueless as to what they were going to run I think he would've put his guys in a better position to win by calling one. Hopefully the next step in Tatum's maturation is nailing end of game process.
So much of the backlash though does seem results, and not process driven though. I feel like if that game ends with a Tatum turnaround (similar to the one he made in closing minutes of game 3), that rims out we'd all be complaining that he plays too much iso at the end...
Last thought before I grind through Monday morning work emails, and this ties in a bit with my first paragraph, overall it's the Coach's job to put his players in the best position to win the game. It's likely not possible, but wondering if there's a stat out there that shows the Celtics success this year in similar situations with or without using a timeout? Or to drill down even further...which options created the best shot? Just to use the last play in regulation as an example, the action they ran resulted in a pretty open Smart 3, which is maybe a 40-42% probability of going in. But can Joe draw up a play out of a TO that results in a shot that is higher than 50? Im just musing here, pre coffee kicking in. Apologies if it's a bit incoherent.
Yes, to be clear, I think Joe has earned a lot of the heat. His entire mantra during regular season was to not call timeouts and let his guys learn on the job. That experience was supposed to carry into the playoffs to greater confidence and composure. The problem is that it hasn’t. They’re still making dumb decisions and it’s already cost them 2 games.
With all that said, Jayson Tatum and Jaylen Brown shouldn’t need constant reminders to make the right play. They’re not making good split decisions and I’m not really sure what can be done about that other than letting White/Smart handle the ball and trying to free one of them up for a catch and shoot.
My hope is that we get to look back and laugh at the handwringing after a tough championship run to #18. My fear is that these mental errors at some point prove to be fatal as the quality of opponents/coaching, if they advance, will only get tougher.
On the timeout issue. I thought during the regular season the criticism of Joe was that he was unwilling to call timeouts to quell runs. I don't recall an unwillingness to call timeouts to set up end of game situations. Am I off on this?
OK yeah I think we are on a similar, if not the same page. For me, the fact that Tatum and Brown need those reminders is incredibly frustrating (although I do think they will both improve in future seasons, because they've improved at basically everything else); but I know they need those, you know they need those, so I presume Joe needs they need those... So within that context I find Joe not calling the TOs to give them those reminders equally, if not more, frustrating.
Agree w/you. Brogdon was particularly bad, and I think it's probably why White played the last four minutes of the OT. Every time Al was on him due to a switch, I cringed; brought back memories of Game 1; Smart was the best of those 3.
The other two things that happened bad defensively late were forgetting to box out PJ Tucker, which cost them 3 points; plus the bad luck of that "shot" hitting the underneath of the rim.
Exactly. The clock stops on a basket inside 2 minutes; but most likely the Sixers are at that point not set up to push the ball down the court quickly; as their priorities are defense and rebounding.
Smart was as much at fault on that last possession as Tatum. He dicked around for 8 seconds or so before even getting Tatum the ball.
I can't agree with this, it seemed strategic / intentional. Tatum didn't make his move to separate early enough. Everyone (CJM, JT, MS) was at fault here. But I blame Smart least. I timestamped it in the video. Tatum holds the ball for 3+ seconds after catching it (he catches it around 8.0 and starts moving around 4.8). That was the biggest problem.
View: https://youtu.be/BGroUnL-GCA?t=509
Isn't almost everything a coach says in any given timeout just repetition and reinforcement of concepts and strategies that all the players should know inside and out? I don't think it's that the players need to be reminded so much as that's just what coaches do. (I agree that a TO should have been called. They need to be coached in the moment. The downside is so minimal.)
Yeah exactly. In a perfect world these players wouldn't need these constant reminders, but they do. In the heat of the moment your mind can completely f*ck with you, no matter how elite you are.
I get that it's a tad* different, but just from a coach/player perspective: the best tennis player I ever coached during my college coaching years had one brutal flaw I picked up midway through his freshman year - in tightly contested doubles matches he would go for broke on his first serve and try to win points that way (i dont need to get into why this is horrific strategy, but it is)...he was reminded non-stop to dial it back a bit, in both practice and in match situations. And while he definitely improved over the next 3.5 years, there were plenty of matches over that time period where I was on another court at a pivotal time and wasnt able to remind him, and guess why he got broken at 6-6 those days?
*a tad, or a metric f*ck ton. But I do think the underlying premise of what a coaches job is in the heat of the moment is similar enough that id drop the personal anecdote.