Celtics vs. Warriors, NBA Finals

[Auger34]

This is where I'm at. All series (and really playoffs) long, I longed for that guy who can come of the bench and just seems automatic from 3. I had hoped that PP would be that guy, but he really faded.

Pritchard was awful after Game 1. Awful is honestly probably too generous. He was completely unplayable. His shot wasn’t close to falling, he was getting abused on defense, and he couldn’t get by a single Warrior defender.

Its probably recency bias on my part but I don’t think you can count on him being a top 8 or 9 guy next year. Maybe he ends up earning it but I think a vet needs to be brought in to knock him down some spots rotationally.

 

[Silverdude2167]

I agree that Boston could have played better, but how could anyone have watched how the Warriors shot and defended in this series, and seen how deep their bench was, and not concluded that they were the superior team?

Because if the Celtics hit 1/3 of their open shots at the end of game 4 as well as games 5 and 6. They win the series.

The Warriors executed better and won because of it, so in the plain sense, they are the better team.

But if you take the Celtics' best from this series against the Warrior's best, the Celtics win.
They should have won this series and lost not because of the Warriors, but because of self-inflicted wounds.

 

[John Marzano Olympic Hero]

The lack of bench really limited anything Ime could do. I still maintain its probably not smart to play 2-3 of them at a time like he was doing but that’s not the main reason they lost and he had to try to steal minutes somewhere.

Tatum had a bad series but, IMO, the series was lost because Boston’s bench got completely clowned by the Warriors bench. I mean, yesterday Otto Porter and Jordan Poole made a bunch of important shots. Porter specifically hit two open 3’s when it seemed like the Celtics had all of the momentum.
Pritchard/White/Williams didn’t contribute anything close to that.

Yes, the bench was a problem which meant that Ime had to play the starters more, which made the more tired ... there wasn't much that he could do about it. 80% of Tatum, Brown, Smart and Horford combined with 70% of TL is better than the dreck that Pritchard, White and Williams were giving you after Game 3. Nesmith was bad in the minutes that he got and the rest of the bench was just flotsam.

The Golden State bench was one of the main reasons why the Warriors won. It's kind of the Mr. Burns corollary when he was collecting his team of all-stars: one or two of them may inevitably get giganticism or spend the rest of their lives in jail, but all of them? Ha! I'd like to see that. Unfortunately, we did. The entirety of the Celtics bench was figuratively laid out by Barney in a bar room brawl over who was the greatest English Prime Minister.

 

[Auger34]

Yes, the bench was a problem which meant that Ime had to play the starters more, which made the more tired ... there wasn't much that he could do about it. 80% of Tatum, Brown, Smart and Horford combined with 70% of TL is better than the dreck that Pritchard, White and Williams were giving you after Game 3. Nesmith was bad in the minutes that he got and the rest of the bench was just flotsam.

The Golden State bench was one of the main reasons why the Warriors won. It's kind of the Mr. Burns corollary when he was collecting his team of all-stars: one or two of them may inevitably get giganticism or spend the rest of their lives in jail, but all of them? Ha! I'd like to see that. Unfortunately, we did. The entirety of the Celtics bench was figuratively laid out by Barney in a bar room brawl over who was the greatest English Prime Minister.

The abuse that Grant took from Giannis had to have effected him the rest of the playoffs. I am probably one of the bigger Grant haters on this board and even I was shocked at how useless he was after the Milwaukee series (save for a few stretches)

I think White was struggling with his confidence and trying to figure out how to fit in with his new teammates didn’t help.

 

[John Marzano Olympic Hero]

The abuse that Grant took from Giannis had to have effected him the rest of the playoffs. I am probably one of the bigger Grant haters on this board and even I was shocked at how useless he was after the Milwaukee series (save for a few stretches)

I think White was struggling with his confidence and trying to figure out how to fit in with his new teammates didn’t help.

Yeah. I don't think that Williams, White or Pritchard suck or anything; but they were broken down too. And I agree that Williams went ten rounds with Giannis and that's a tough draw for any player.

I like this team a lot, I think that their base is solid and they just need a few pieces added to the roster. It reminds me a lot of the 2003 Sox. They were a legit terrific team, but they added some pieces in the offseason and ran it back with a great team--only the Celts don't need to add as much. I trust Stevens and I bet he'll do just fine this offseason.

 

[wade boggs chicken dinner]

Pritchard was awful after Game 1. Awful is honestly probably too generous. He was completely unplayable. His shot wasn’t close to falling, he was getting abused on defense, and he couldn’t get by a single Warrior defender.

Its probably recency bias on my part but I don’t think you can count on him being a top 8 or 9 guy next year. Maybe he ends up earning it but I think a vet needs to be brought in to knock him down some spots rotationally.

I believe PP will get minutes next year; he's shown that he's way too good of a shooter not to get minutes. His big problem is that he needs other people to get him shots and for whatever reason, JB and JT weren't really getting him shots.

 

[RedOctober3829]

Nobody likes the incessant Tatum whining/giving up on plays with his arms raised after a TO in the lane. It sucked and was copied by others (like Grant/Smart). I'd expect JT/Drew Hanlen will go into the lab, watch video, and figure out a strategy. If Tatum continues to get bigger/stronger, as he has done every off-season, he will play through contact more which should draw a better whistle.

Is Wiggins (and for that matter Steph/Bjelicia) lockdown defenders or was a young Tatum worn down/injured & frustrated by trying to master the role of PG/ball initiator? Bruce Brown, PJ Tucker, Butler, Giannis, J'rue Holiday are pretty good defenders, was Tatum soft there?

Also as noted numerous times, Tatum's minutes played this season, Olympics, COVID season, and Bubble playoffs have been pretty extreme over the last 24 months

A Tatum is soft narrative would only be perpetrated by those with an agenda that benefits from that POV. If it gets loud enough I'd expect it to fuel him, so not really bothered if the national NBA media (TNT/ESPN) runs with it. Gosh, he's made so many eat their words relentlessly for years now it's pretty funny when someone steps forward and doubts him.

Lets' see where he stands ranking-wise next April when it really starts mattering again. I don't know if he's #3 or #15 now, but he's pretty damn close to leading a Championship team.

The strategy is this: take 3-4 weeks off completely to rest up then followed by 2-3 guys with blocking pads hitting the crap out of him as he drove into the lane and finish through contact. He needs to get better finishing at the rim.

 

[wade boggs chicken dinner]

How does the exception work? If a player is signed to a multi-year deal, is it only concerned with the current year of the contract? This could be the worst idea in the world, but Duncan Robinson makes 16.9 next year and the exception is 17.1. Any hope that bringing our boy back to NE could help him regain his stroke, or is that ludicrous? Part of me thinks that if Miami is happy to get out of his deal, we should run.

It depends. See Question 85 here: http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q85.

I think generally though, the incoming salary is the cap amount, which depends on bonuses and incentives.

 

[sezwho]

Because if the Celtics hit 1/3 of their open shots at the end of game 4 as well as games 5 and 6. They win the series.

The Warriors executed better and won because of it, so in the plain sense, they are the better team.

But if you take the Celtics' best from this series against the Warrior's best, the Celtics win.
They should have won this series and lost not because of the Warriors, but because of self-inflicted wounds.

I've been going back and forth on this one, and I'm no longer sure its true.

This next point may come across as semantics, but there is enormous value in being the team most likely to approach that peak. Even if the Cs had a slightly higher ceiling (and again, sitting in my dark basement the day afterwards I'm no longer conceding this) they were seldom able to get there while the Warriors were seldom far from theirs.

 

[Was (Not Wasdin)]

Wade in 2006, in his third season at 24.

But also, next year will be Tatum's 6th year, he's not new to the NBA. It's hard to compare guys who were rookies at 22 with ones who were rookies at 19. Bird won a title in his second year, Magic in his first, Michael and Steph in their 6th.

He can keep getting better, and I certainly wouldn't give up on him turning the corner. But he's deeper into his career than it seems.

Jordan was in his seventh season, and he played 3 years at UNC, so that was his age 27 season. Next year will be Tatum's age 24 season.

The 2006 Miami Heat Wade team is really interesting to me. Wade was probably the best player, but Shaq wasnt far behind. But that team was loaded with veteran guys-James Posey, Alonzo Mourning, Gary Payton and 'Toine, among others. I think veterans like that, especially off the bench, would have been better against GS than Grant or PP.

 

[NomarsFool]

What has been the deal with Rob Williams getting constantly stripped? Seems like it started in the Miami series and continued into this one. I don't really remember that during the regular season. He needs to spend the offseason catching passes and have people smack his arms until no one ever gets the ball away from him.

 

[Euclis20]

Tatum shot under 32% from 2 in this series. He was 6-25 with just 18 points in the 4th quarter in this series, in about 54 minutes. He didn't exactly kill it in the 1st 3 quarters (40% from the field, 111 points in about 190 minutes), but it's hard not to see this disparity and think that the moment was just a little bit too big for him. He's hurt, he's tired, he didn't get any help from the bench (the rest of the starters all had pretty respectable numbers though), but he was awful, too. It's ok to say that as much as he grew this year, both in the regular season and in the playoffs, he came up awfully small when it mattered the most.

He's far from the first star to do this, and based on his career so far it's certainly reasonable to expect him to be better next time, if there is a next time. This is going to sting for awhile.

 

[wade boggs chicken dinner]

What has been the deal with Rob Williams getting constantly stripped? Seems like it started in the Miami series and continued into this one. I don't really remember that during the regular season. He needs to spend the offseason catching passes and have people smack his arms until no one ever gets the ball away from him.

I attribute it to his injury and not being able to just go up and dunk the ball.

That's also why IMO he missed several put-backs in the 2H of last night's game that really could have made the game interesting.

 

[SemperFidelisSox]

Not related to the series, but Lakers fans are cancer. The Celtics are a poverty franchise and their championships from the 50’s don’t count, but absolutely count their Minneapolis titles and Mickey Mouse ring. “17-17”.

 

[Jimbodandy]

Not related to the series, but Lakers fans are cancer. The Celtics are a poverty franchise and their championships from the 50’s don’t count, but absolutely count their Minneapolis titles and Mickey Mouse ring. “17-17”.

The Lakers fans are great contributors to the basketball twitterverse too, which is where people are probably correctly inferring that the dumbass intelligencia will crap on Tatum's performance. And neither we nor he should give a shit. He got his first team, so he can get his big max. Life is good.

There's some validity to the conversation about the GSW bench being deeper than ours, but honestly that's more of a testament to their team-building than a knock on ours. Milwaukee and Miami's bench wasn't special. We comfortably ran 7-8 deep for most of the playoffs, and it didn't hurt us. There isn't much wrong with White, Grant, and Pritchard, and Theis isn't bad big depth. More depth and maybe an upgrade here and there would be nice. But yeah having guys like Poole, GP2, and even Porter making huge plays at weird times did matter.

I think that VanEveryman has it right, the Celts were tired. I mean, if you watched the games you could tell that they were absolutely exhausted. It has nothing to do with Ime being "in over his head". He took a team that was 11th in the Conference in January to Game Six of the NBA Championship. Sometimes the other team is just better.

This is perfectly put.

Nothing wrong with a review of areas of possible improvement from within or outside of the Cs roster. But sometimes the other team is just better, more experienced, knows how to work the refs, not drown in the moment, etc.

 

[bosockboy]

Not related to the series, but Lakers fans are cancer. The Celtics are a poverty franchise and their championships from the 50’s don’t count, but absolutely count their Minneapolis titles and Mickey Mouse ring. “17-17”.

The Minneapolis argument is insane. My response is always “let’s see the Sonics 1979 banner in OKC’s arena.” Gets quiet.

 

[SoxFanInPdx]

Not related to the series, but Lakers fans are cancer. The Celtics are a poverty franchise and their championships from the 50’s don’t count, but absolutely count their Minneapolis titles and Mickey Mouse ring. “17-17”.

I don't watch the NBA regular season much these days, but I was watching here and there after the ASG.

Point is, NBA Twitter can be pretty fun, but pretty terrible as well. Can say that about social media in general. I've cut way back on engaging in it or viewing it. It can really grind on one's mental health.

 

[JM3]

The Minneapolis argument is insane. My response is always “let’s see the Sonics 1979 banner in OKC’s arena.” Gets quiet.

As a Las Vegas resident I've regularly celebrated the Oakland Raiders Super Bowl wins in '77 & '81 & the LA Raiders Super Bowl win in '84 in the last couple years since they moved here.

Who knew these things would be so retroactively fulfilling?

 

[bosockboy]

As a Las Vegas resident I've regularly celebrated the Oakland Raiders Super Bowl wins in '77 & '81 & the LA Raiders Super Bowl win in '84 in the last couple years since they moved here.

Who knew these things would be so retroactively fulfilling?

Lifelong Raider fan since 1976. Raiders are a very weird dynamic. Cities they leave still love them. Most popular team in LA by a huge stretch.

 

[ElUno20]

Lifelong Raider fan since 1976. Raiders are a very weird dynamic. Cities they leave still love them. Most popular team in LA by a huge stretch.

Most popular nfl team? The raiders are nowhere near the lakers or the dodgers in LA. It isnt even close.

 

[bosockboy]

Most popular nfl team? The raiders are nowhere near the lakers or the dodgers in LA. It isnt even close.

Yes NFL.

 

[TripleOT]

Non-garbage time, the Warriors’ bench outscored the Boston bench by 55 points in a series where GS won the point differential by 24. Even with Tatum struggling, even with the crazy amount of turnovers, that was the difference in this series.

Poole was a 28th pick. Pritchard was a 26th pick. Poole scored 79 points in the Finals in 125 minutes, PP 16 points in 66 minutes.

Derrick White was a disaster overall in the Finals after a strong Game 1, going - 17, -12, -19, -13, -26 in the last five games.

Grant Williams took only 10 threes the entire series, making only 3. It was 10 games since he had multiple threes in a game, and he went 5-20 over that span. If Grant had shot as well as Otto Porter from three, 9-16, it might have been a different series.

I have been one of the bigger advocates of Prichard on this board, but him making only three three pointers in his last nine playoff games, coming up empty from three in seven of those games was an epic fail. His job was to provide some firepower off the bench, and he failed miserably.

The lack of bench shotmaking allowed GS to really load up against the Jays defensively. The Tatum, AL/TL, Grant, PP, White lineup lit up a lot of teams previous to the finals

Maybe next season, use White as the backup PG, and find an Otto Porter type tp take PP’s minutes. I’d retain gGrant, figuring his defense will be needed to get past Giannis, but find one other three point shooter with size to ring chase and really shore up the back of the rotation (and/or develop Sam Hauser).

 

[ElUno20]

Yes NFL.

Ok. Yes. Nfl you'll still catch a damn body around raiders fans in LA. It's nuts. I'd put the niners at 1b here though.

 

[Strike4]

Thanks for the recap all. I was camping in a place with no cell service for the past three days and came here to get the goods on how it went down.

FYI, I heard Howard Bryant on the NPR sports Saturday thingy this morning and he basically talked all about the Warriors winning. For the Celtics, he just said "the Celtics have a great young team but just kind of got worn down". Seems to be a big part of the recap.