Completely legal substitution aka the "John Harbaugh is a whiny little brat" thread.

[PedroKsBambino]

 
Since Harbaugh keeps moving the goalposts, I'd be pretty impressed if anyone understood exactly what he said and why he said it.
 
That said, explain what is more complicated. Perhaps I'm not expressing myself correctly, because reading your other posts, I think we agree. Harbaugh wants to match up to formations and eligible receivers. He said exactly that: "they don’t give you the chance to make the proper substitutions"
 
By the time the huddle breaks and Vereen talks to ref why could Harbaugh not have made proper subs since this clearly wasn't a hurry up situation?

 
As was linked a couple times already, Harbaugh said:
 

 
We wanted an opportunity to be able to identify who the eligible players were," Harbaugh explained, "because what they were doing was they would announce the eligible player and Tom (Brady) would take it to the line right away and snap the ball before (we) even figured out who was lined up where. And that was the deception part of it. It was clearly deception.
 
"The officials told me after that they would give us the opportunity to do that, which they probably should have done during that series but they really didn't understand what was happening. I had to go take the penalty to get their attention so they can understand what was going on."

 
There's a question about substitutions, and a question about being able to identify and match up with who is eligible and ineligible.  Both matter, not just the first.  Since the rule on the first is pretty clear (which I agree with you about), and his words after the game and yesterday both focus on the ability to match up, I believe (and others have said same) it is his real complaint.

To each their own I suppose.  

 

[Kevin Youkulele]

 
Since Harbaugh keeps moving the goalposts, I'd be pretty impressed if anyone understood exactly what he said and why he said it.
 
That said, explain what is more complicated. Perhaps I'm not expressing myself correctly, because reading your other posts, I think we agree. Harbaugh wants to match up to formations and eligible receivers. He said exactly that: "they don’t give you the chance to make the proper substitutions"
 
By the time the huddle breaks and Vereen talks to ref why could Harbaugh not have made proper subs since this clearly wasn't a hurry up situation?

I think this is right.  The key moment where Harbaugh whiffed was when the OL went out and a player with an eligible number came in.  If he was on the ball, he would have known that something was up - more specifically, someone was going to have to declare ineligibility, and that someone is not normally a lineman.  You must have 5 ineligible players, and only 4 had ineligible jersey numbers.  He doesn't know the precise formation yet, but you never do when the huddle breaks.  
 
Put simply, he had his chance and he missed it.
 
At any rate, a blitz or pressure package is kind of an obvious response if you know, as Harbaugh should have, that the Pats were not going to have a full-strength offensive line.  

 

[DJnVa]

.  Both matter, not just the first.  Since the rule on the first is pretty clear (which I agree with you about), and his words after the game and yesterday both focus on the ability to match up, I believe (and others have said same) it is his real complaint.
To each their own I suppose.  

 
Oh, I agree. I was only responding to a post that said he never said "substitutions" and then was saying why that complaint was worthless. I get there was more involved.

 

[PaulinMyrBch]

Hat tip to jerbear for this:
 
GIF of Lions-Vikings play
 
Lions had 5 OL, 6th split wide. Vikings, shaking in their boots, were fooled into sacking Stafford.

 
Vikings actually covered the correct 5 eligible receivers in the amount of time dictated by the offensive snap.  Not so Raven.

 

[Reverend]

 
As was linked a couple times already, Harbaugh said:
 
 
There's a question about substitutions, and a question about being able to identify and match up with who is eligible and ineligible.  Both matter, not just the first.  Since the rule on the first is pretty clear (which I agree with you about), and his words after the game and yesterday both focus on the ability to match up, I believe (and others have said same) it is his real complaint.
To each their own I suppose.  

 
Well, yeah, he said that. But, like, on the third time the Pats ran the play, the Ravens' problem was that Mosley came across the formation to cover the Vereen/Gronk tandem even though Vereen had declared himself ineligible.
 
It's one thing to say that they didn't know that Hoomanawanui was eligible, which seems likely since they swapped Mosley with Levine over there to get two CBs on two WRs (and the fact that the play worked so well), although it's still not clear why Harbaugh thinks he should get extra time to figure that out. But unless they were actually planning to double cover Gronk with 2 LBs playing at the exact same depth--which strikes me as extraordinarily dumb--then one of them was there because of Vereen, which means they just plain botched the fact that he was ineligible which is as much a problem of basic execution of football concepts as anything else.

 

[steveluck7]

Them not knowing Hoomanawanui was eligible is not acceptable since he was the last man on the LOS on that side of the ball (i.e. not covered up)

 

[PaulinMyrBch]

Them not knowing Hoomanawanui was eligible is not acceptable since he was the last man on the LOS on that side of the ball (i.e. not covered up)

 Exactly. This is the NFL and with it comes the expected knowledge of the basics. Only 2 lineman are eligible. The two on the ends. Start counting from the outside, skip guys covered up, finish in the backfield. Once you get to 5 stop. Don't count the guy the ref told you not to cover.

 

[Reverend]

Them not knowing Hoomanawanui was eligible is not acceptable since he was the last man on the LOS on that side of the ball (i.e. not covered up)

 
They also saw the exact same formation five plays earlier where Houmanawanui caught the ball and Harbaugh was seen on the sidelines grimacing about it after the play.

 

[judyb]

Sorry if this is a stupid question, but why would the ref agree with him that they should have been given more time and say they would be if it happened again if that's not in the rules?

 

[steveluck7]

Sorry if this is a stupid question, but why would the ref agree with him that they should have been given more time and say they would be if it happened again if that's not in the rules?

best guess??
Harbaugh made that up to cover his ass
at the very least he mis-remembered or misinterpreted the Ref to cover his ass

 

[Tony C]

 ... Don't count the guy the ref told you not to cover.

 
Whoa...wait! you mean...don't cover the guy the refs tell you is ineligible? Dang...isn't that a lot to expect from an NFL coach to figure out?
 

Sorry if this is a stupid question, but why would the ref agree with him that they should have been given more time and say they would be if it happened again if that's not in the rules?

 
It seems to me that's the rub. If the refs did in fact say that, then really the only team with a beef is the Pats. The NFL made clear after the refs had been handling it perfectly correctly -- if they expressed to Harbaugh that due to his complaints they were going to start handling it in a different, less than correct way, then the Pats were screwed I tells ya, screwed by Har-bawler!

 

[PaulinMyrBch]

On Inside the NFL, they show a clip of Harbaugh after some of those plays talking to the defense. As best I can recall he says this....
 
Edit: This video has more than they showed on Inside the NFL. Start at about 11:03 when Ngata starts talking to Suggs, then Harbaugh explains it.

 

[Omar's Wacky Neighbor]

Sorry if this is a stupid question, but why would the ref agree with him that they should have been given more time and say they would be if it happened again if that's not in the rules?

"I meant to do that!"  (IOW, try to CYA after the fact.)

 

[Harry Hooper]

Since CBS absolutely refused to show a replay, does anyone have a screen shot of where Solder was lined up when the Pats got flagged for his not reporting as eligible? Based on the Pats reaction, I wonder if he actually was lined up normally and the officials blew it.

 

[SocrManiac]

That call utterly reeked of the officials being overwhelmed. With all of the focus on eligibility and the criticality to the game plan, I have a very difficult time believing the Pats screwed it up.

 

[BigJimEd]

I was hoping for a replay as well. Fleming lined up outside Solder a play or two later. It may be that he lined up on the wrong side or maybe someone else was supposed to cover up Solder.

 

[Harry Hooper]

The ref seemed to have a quite peevish tone as he discussed the call. CBS took it on faith that the officials were correct.

 

[epraz]

The ref seemed to have a quite peevish tone as he discussed the call. CBS took it on faith that the officials were correct.

 
They didn't really go into it, but I recall one of the CBS announcers saying something like "I wouldn't be surprised if the officials couldn't keep up with the Pats' substitutions."

 

[JohnnyK]

 

 
Gronk initially covers Solder and then goes in motion. Fleming was eligible but Solder was not.
 
Q3, 4:25 left

 

[Harry Hooper]

 

 
Gronk initially covers Solder and then goes in motion. Fleming was eligible but Solder was not.
 
Q3, 4:25 left

 
 
Thanks for that. Gronk is not on the LOS, though, so Solder was eligible at all points, right? I guess the argument then was that Sodler believes he reported as eligible correctly.

 

[BigJimEd]

Gronk looks in the backfield in the first one to me but it's close.
LaFell is close as well. Looks to me I'd consider him on the line in which case he's covering Fleming. If not they only have 6 on the line.


Could be Fleming lined up on the wrong side.

 

[lexrageorge]

LaFell's foot is  even with Solder's hand, which puts LaFell on the LOS.  Gronk is clearly lining up 1 yard behind Solder, which means he would not be considered to be on the LOS.  
 
If Fleming reported as eligible, and Solder did not, then they would have wanted Fleming on the end of the line.  Which means that LaFell would have been lined up on the wrong side.  Or it's possible that Solder was supposed to report and Fleming was not.  Either way, the formation above is clearly illegal unless Solder reports as eligible.  
 
The other possibility is that Solder did indeed report as eligible, and the referee lost track and assumed it was Fleming instead.  Given Belichick's reaction at the time, that seems a distinct possibility. 

 

[BigJimEd]

Good points. Probably right that either LaFell lined up on the wrong side or the ref got the lineman wrong.

 

[PayrodsFirstClutchHit]

The solution to this problem is easy,  The NFL should breakdown the rule book into two sections: The Regular Rules and The Loophole Rules.  They can include a warning in  the Loophole section:  "Warning.  This section of the rule book is used exclusively by the Patriots.  Make sure you study this area extra good when playing the Pats."

 

[SidelineCameras]

Call me a homer but I'd wager the odds of the refs getting confused here are a lot greater than LaFell or Flemming lining up wrong. Patriots MO in this case is for them to pull the offending player and chew them out on the sideline, not to look upset at the refs.

 

[Reverend]

It was a communication issue, not a formation issue. Here's what the ref said:
 
"Illegal formation: number 77 offense. Number 71 reported, number 77 did not report."
 
Edit: I'm not sure in what world 71 would be eligible though... or am I missing something?

 

[lexrageorge]

It was a communication issue, not a formation issue. Here's what the ref said:
 
"Illegal formation: number 77 offense. Number 71 reported, number 77 did not report."
 
Edit: I'm not sure in what world 71 would be eligible though... or am I missing something?

In the picture above, #71, Fleming, would not be eligible.  However, #77, Solder, should have reported as eligible.  Leaves 3 possibilities:
 
a.) Fleming and Solder were confused, and the wrong player reported as eligible.
 
b.) LaFell lined up on the wrong side, and it wasn't caught by Brady or Wendell or the coaches pre-snap. 
 
c.) The ref mixed up #77 and #71, and assumed Solder was Fleming.  

 

[Reverend]

In the picture above, #71, Fleming, would not be eligible.  However, #77, Solder, should have reported as eligible.  Leaves 3 possibilities:
 
a.) Fleming and Solder were confused, and the wrong player reported as eligible.
 
b.) LaFell lined up on the wrong side, and it wasn't caught by Brady or Wendell or the coaches pre-snap. 
 
c.) The ref mixed up #77 and #71, and assumed Solder was Fleming.  

 
Right. If the ref is to be believed, #71 Fleming reported eligible. This makes no sense at all as he is not eligible and cannot become eligible.
 
Either Fleming AND Solder fucked up in a very unlikely fashion or the refs totally fucked up and got the number of the guy reporting wrong.
 
 
Edit: Looks like they lined up in the same formation albeit with different personnel on the next play.

 

[Silverdude2167]

The ref was really confused when making the announcement and even huddled again afterwards. I would bet that they screwed up and not the Pats.

 

[lexrageorge]

 
Right. If the ref is to be believed, #71 Fleming reported eligible. This makes no sense at all as he is not eligible and cannot become eligible.
 
Either Fleming AND Solder fucked up in a very unlikely fashion or the refs totally fucked up and got the number of the guy reporting wrong.

If Fleming did indeed report as eligible, and was supposed to report, then the only explanation is that LaFell lined up on the wrong side of the line.  Had LaFell been split on Brady's left, Fleming would indeed be eligible.
 
It's a conceivable scenario, but seems unlikely as well.  

 

[Harry Hooper]

Someone needs to do a full analysis from multiple camera angles of the whole sequence. Get that woman Banacek used to read lips to see if Solder reported as eligible.

 

[( . ) ( . ) and (_!_)]

Shouldn't it be fairly obvious from the all 22 film which if either tackle walked up to and spoke to the ref? Anyone got the film and the time?

 

[Stitch01]

It's not up yet, but the way they cut the all 22 you might not be able to tell.

 

[Harry Hooper]

It's not up yet, but the way they cut the all 22 you might not be able to tell.

 
I'd really like to know the answer, but in any event I don't think the Pats would make a stink about it as there's not much to be gained embarrassing the officials.

 

[Icculus]

If the Pats wanted to embarrass the officials all they'd have to do is ask them to justify the illegal contact called against Collins on 3rd & 7.

 

[JohnnyK]

Here's a shot from right before the play:

 
Now, I'm guessing here, but Fleming raising his arm and pointing at himself is probably him reporting eligible. Solder does no such thing.

 

[lars10]

Just had a thought.  Is there anything keeping Fleming from raising his hand even though Solder had reported?  All of this has to be very confusing on the field...especially since no other team has done it (as far as I know) with this frequency.  Given that their two numbers are sort of similar isn't this just another way to make sure that the D is paying attention?  
 
Of course it's all meaningless once the formation is set and the D can see who is actually on the line (if they weren't aware/can't remember who declared eligible (especially if the wrong man raised his hand)), but it could be that split second hesitation needed if a man on D wasn't paying attention or was paying attention to the wrong thing.
 
I can also conceive of BB using this specifically in the playoffs to make teams waste a time-out...when they're especially important.
 
Any chance that Seattle practices for this and BB decides to not use it at all?

 

[BigJimEd]

Seattle will almost assuredly practice it. But I'd expect that to last all of about 5 minutes. It really isn't very complicated.

Whether the Pats use it or not is anyones' guess

 

[Mystic Merlin]

Prepare your butts for a hook and ladder to an ineligible Vereen.

 

[Harry Hooper]

Just had a thought.  Is there anything keeping Fleming from raising his hand even though Solder had reported?  All of this has to be very confusing on the field...especially since no other team has done it (as far as I know) with this frequency.  Given that their two numbers are sort of similar isn't this just another way to make sure that the D is paying attention?  
 

 
Perhaps Solder reported first and the ref just forgot about that when the play was run.
 
If Solder had declared eligible on the previous play, doesn't that status carry over until he goes to the sidelines = he wouldn't have to report as eligible on the next play? If I am right about this, here's where there might be a rule change to help the defense (player must declare every play even though he can't revert to normal status until there's a stoppage in play or he sits out a play).
 
I did wonder if (way back when) Fleming was intentionally given the #71 jersey to confuse defenses further.

 

[singaporesoxfan]

Even if Solder had reported first, the screenshots earlier in this thread suggest that Fleming was ineligible - LaFell was covering him. So it really could be a screw up either by LaFell or Fleming.

 

[Harry Hooper]

Even if Solder had reported first, the screenshots earlier in this thread suggest that Fleming was ineligible - LaFell was covering him. So it really could be a screw up either by LaFell or Fleming.

 
Sure, LaFell might have been on the wrong side or Fleming wrongly reported as eligible.

 

[bsartist618]

Can someone point me in the direction of a good primer on NFL formation / eligibility rules? Wikipedia was not too helpful and Googling leads to a bunch of garbage surrounding this recent "controversy."

Having watched football for a good 25 years, I've picked up a fair amount, but I don't think I've ever had a full explanation of these rules as far as what it means for a receiver to be "covering" another player and why this would be necessary. I realize this is probably basic info for most people here (esp. those who played) so this is a little embarrassing for me.

 

[DJnVa]

Can someone point me in the direction of a good primer on NFL formation / eligibility rules? Wikipedia was not too helpful and Googling leads to a bunch of garbage surrounding this recent "controversy."

Having watched football for a good 25 years, I've picked up a fair amount, but I don't think I've ever had a full explanation of these rules as far as what it means for a receiver to be "covering" another player and why this would be necessary. I realize this is probably basic info for most people here (esp. those who played) so this is a little embarrassing for me.

 
Here's some basics: http://www.nfl.com/rulebook/positionofplayers
 
http://www.nfl.com/rulebook/digestofrules

 

[singaporesoxfan]

Can someone point me in the direction of a good primer on NFL formation / eligibility rules? Wikipedia was not too helpful and Googling leads to a bunch of garbage surrounding this recent "controversy."

Having watched football for a good 25 years, I've picked up a fair amount, but I don't think I've ever had a full explanation of these rules as far as what it means for a receiver to be "covering" another player and why this would be necessary. I realize this is probably basic info for most people here (esp. those who played) so this is a little embarrassing for me.

 
Simplest might be the NFL's forward pass page: http://www.nfl.com/rulebook/forwardpass
 
"Eligible receivers on the offensive team are players on either end of line (other than center, guard, or tackle) or players at least one yard behind the line at the snap".
 
Since you must have at least 7 people on the line of scrimmage (see DrewDawg's link), and the 7 people in this case were Solder-Connolly-Wendell-Kline-Vollmer-Fleming-LaFell (at least, I think it was Kline and Vollmer), only Solder and LaFell should be eligible.

 

[bsartist618]

Thanks! That last link has the information I was looking for.

If I'm reading this correctly, there needs to be 7 players on the line of scrimmage with the two outer-most (one each side) being eligible. Everyone else has to be at least one yard off the line.

 

[singaporesoxfan]

Thanks! That last link has the information I was looking for.

If I'm reading this correctly, there needs to be 7 players on the line of scrimmage with the two outer-most (one each side) being eligible. Everyone else has to be at least one yard off the line.

Correct, except it's at least 7 as far as I can tell, not exactly 7. I think you can put more people on the line if you don't care about losing eligible receivers.

 

[NortheasternPJ]

Seattle will almost assuredly practice it. But I'd expect that to last all of about 5 minutes. It really isn't very complicated.

Whether the Pats use it or not is anyones' guess

 
Why it worked this week is the Pats were playing an overloaded line with an extra lineman and kept announcing one was eligible. Eventually it seems that Indy just started tuning it out and as soon as they did, the Pats went to them.
 
If the Pats play an overloaded line (which I don't know if they will) and you're calling eligible receivers all game, Seattle now has to make sure that person is actually covered.
 
if they play an overloaded line and the one time the guy "beats" the eligible receiver and then he takes off, then they're pretty screwed.

 

[Kevin Youkulele]

Seems like the lesson here is that the defense needs to pay attention to formation, not uniform number/what position a player normally plays.  If a guy is an end, cover him like an end, even if he has the body of an interior lineman.  
 
If a guy is covered up, treat him like a lineman, even if he has the body type of a receiver/tailback (while being alert to a lateral possibility).  
 
For the latter situation, maybe use a "spy" who could probably watch both Brady and an ineligible Vereen.

 

[singaporesoxfan]

 
Why it worked this week is the Pats were playing an overloaded line with an extra lineman and kept announcing one was eligible. Eventually it seems that Indy just started tuning it out and as soon as they did, the Pats went to them.
 
If the Pats play an overloaded line (which I don't know if they will) and you're calling eligible receivers all game, Seattle now has to make sure that person is actually covered.
 
if they play an overloaded line and the one time the guy "beats" the eligible receiver and then he takes off, then they're pretty screwed.

 
Part of the reason Indy started tuning out the eligibility announcements for the overloaded line was that the Pats weren't continually playing around with eligibility rules solely for trickeration purposes, but were very successfully using that overloaded line to run block. They went to 6 OL with Fleming on the edge to run block for LGBT, and since he was on the edge with an offensive lineman number he had to keep announcing he was eligible - I presume otherwise the Pats would get called for illegal formation.