Dan Bard: the skill is gone
- Thread starter soxhop411
- Start date
Neither Ted Williams nor Babe Ruth nor Barry Bonds in their respective primes could have so much as fouled off the pitch Bard threw to Swisher. In sports, like life, it's all about enjoying it while you have it.
http://m.mlb.com/video/v10781819/bosnyy-bard-gets-sox-out-of-trouble-in-seventh
http://m.mlb.com/video/v10781819/bosnyy-bard-gets-sox-out-of-trouble-in-seventh
Seriously. Bard has made nearly $5M since 2009 and was likely to sign a deal that would've paid that or more annually for something that he was always damn good at until he was really bad at it.
I hope he turns it around and we see that nasty pitch again.
I hope he turns it around and we see that nasty pitch again.
95.5 HBP/ 9 ...... my mind is boggled that a guy throwing his speed with this much danger to the batter has only 1K.
I would intentionally k if I faced him I think.
Can you just swing three times pre the pitch and walk off?
I would intentionally k if I faced him I think.
Can you just swing three times pre the pitch and walk off?
AimingForYoko said:
I assume this is in reference to his failed conversion to a starter, and with that I kind of think this is a little bit of misremembering how that went down. From what I remember, Bard was kind of using the media to let everyone and their mother know that he wanted to be a starter, and he would be unhappy if left in the bullpen.
If he's broke because of the starter conversion, and I am remembering the events correctly, then he sort of brought this on himself. That doesn't mean I don't feel terrible for the guy (I do), but the blame on the Sox might be misplaced.
Bard's ERA in Sept. 2011, when he was still a reliever, was 10.64, over 11 appearances.
In the first half of 2011, his ERA was 2.05 and his WHIP was 0.795.
In the second half of 2011, his ERA was 5.28 and his WHIP was 1.207. Most of this decline was due to his lousy September.
The idea that Bard's fall was the result of making him a starter is 100% bullshit. He was having severe problems before the starter experiment in 2012.
In the first half of 2011, his ERA was 2.05 and his WHIP was 0.795.
In the second half of 2011, his ERA was 5.28 and his WHIP was 1.207. Most of this decline was due to his lousy September.
The idea that Bard's fall was the result of making him a starter is 100% bullshit. He was having severe problems before the starter experiment in 2012.
This story is beyond sad. The only silver lining is he hasn't hurt anyone, yet. I'm not a big fan of all of the armor hitters are sporting these days, but in this instance batting shields equivalent to what goes on the mound during BP may be n order. .
Jaylach said:
If I remember correctly, he publicly said he'd do either, but that his preference was to start: http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2011/12/06/sox-bard-prefers-starter/gNAp3Pk7uz3s3ZeOEmYkTJ/story.html
I feel badly for anyone who loses their mojo, but life is about adjustments. At some point or another Bard would have had to stop playing baseball. Unlike the majority of players who are drafted and who (at some point) must stop playing baseball, Bard is pretty much set for life financially. $5 million does not sound like a lot relative to the game's elite, but Bard, if he does not earn another penny from here on out is pretty much set for life. While I'd like to see Bard get it back together, it's not like this is a grand tragedy.
Smiling Joe Hesketh said:
The idea that he was completely broken before the 2012 season is 100% bullshit.
He had a terrible September 2011, as did almost everyone connected with the team. But in April 2012, he had a 3.72 ERA in 20 innings. He wasn't a total mess yet, he was not broken yet. Through 3 more starts in May, he was still at a 4.30 ERA for the season-- not good, but not ruined yet. He just kept getting progressively worse in start after start until he finally completely lost it and couldn't pitch effectively anymore.
Bard's success was always really fragile, and was only saved when he was converted to relief in the minors. Converting him back to a starter was a huge gamble and blew up in everyone's faces. It's not the only reason this happened to him, but him falling to pieces as a starter was always a realistic possibility, given his minor league record. It meant going completely away from what had saved his career before. It shouldn't have been a surprise when it happened.
Also, most people have forgotten, but Bard gets a 2013 World Series ring, as he made two appearances for the Sox last year. On April 25th, he pitched a scoreless inning against Houston, allowing 1 hit, no walks and striking out a batter. Then 2 days later, he made another appearance against Houston, and walked the only 2 guys he faced, on 9 pitches.
Smiling Joe Hesketh said:
Daniel Bard Sept 2011 (1 outing he gave up 5 runs in 1 inning):
IP - 11; H - 11; R - 14; ER - 13; BB - 9; HR - 0; K - 11; (ERA 10.64, WHIP 1.818)
Daniel Bard Aug 2009:
IP - 11; H - 13; R - 9; ER - 9; BB - 7; HR - 4; K - 18; (ERA 7.36, WHIP 1.818)
Daniel Bard 2011 2nd Half (not including September):
2.00 ERA; .169/.217/.292;
My apologies, but you can not say with any certainty that his conversion to a starter had nothing to do with his collapse. Up until September 2011, he was basically the same pitcher he had been all year. Then September happened. But that September had one outing where he gave up 5 runs in 1 inning. When you pitch only 11 innings, things can get skewed.
So was it a bad month, made worse by this one outing? Or was this the start of his collapse?
I wanted to see if he had a similar bad month previous, and I'd say that Aug 2009 was similar (note that the bad month happened towards the end of the year, where your body might not be as strong).
Now think about the conversion. He changed his mechanics and mindset. He wanted to conserve energy for multiple innings. He changed a lot. To be clear, I'm not saying one way or the other. But you can't, with any certainty say, "The idea that Bard's fall was the result of making him a starter is 100% bullshit".
Bard's walk rate spiked in Sept 2011 and never ever got any better. And Eagle, in April 2012 he walked 10 plus hit a batter in 20 innings, his WHIP that month was 1.448, so he was hardly dominating. Once his walk rate got out of control starting in September 2011, his career completely cratered. Starting had zero to do with it. I realize there's some need to point to something and say "that broke him" but the evidence simply doesn't exist.
Bard lost the ability to consistently throws strikes in 2011, likely in September, and never got it back, for reasons that are completely unknown to us. His thoracic outlet surgery doesn't seem to have improved matters. Reports were that his bullpen sessions this year were good, but once he faced live batters he had no idea where the ball was going. Classic Blass, unfortunately.
Bard lost the ability to consistently throws strikes in 2011, likely in September, and never got it back, for reasons that are completely unknown to us. His thoracic outlet surgery doesn't seem to have improved matters. Reports were that his bullpen sessions this year were good, but once he faced live batters he had no idea where the ball was going. Classic Blass, unfortunately.
As much as you want to stick to this narrative, you can not definitively say this. In fact, 2011 -- even with September -- he posted his lowest walk rate up to that point (3.0 BB/9). The 2nd half, before September, he walked four in 18 innings.
HillysLastWalk said:
Again, in September his walk rate spiked. His K/BB ratio that year, by month: 4.0, 3.25, 4.0, 4.0, 7.0, 1.22.
He lost the ability to control the strike zone in September of 2011. His BB rate was 7.36 in Sept. 2011. In April of 2012, it was 5.12. In May it was 5.58. Before September 2011 it was never anywhere near this high. And he never got it down again.
Starting didn't ruin Dan Bard. He was broken in September 2011 and never recovered.
Again, no one has denied that he had a bad month in September 2011.
How is September 2011 the start of his collapse, but not August 2009? How do you know that this wasn't just a bad month? Yet the whole conversion to a starter, change in mechanics was meaningless? You have definitively concluded that it was an 11 inning sample in September 2011. And the conversion to starter had nothing to do with it.
I haven't given an opinion either way, but to conclude that the conversion to starter had nothing to do with it? That's a reach. Sorry.
How is September 2011 the start of his collapse, but not August 2009? How do you know that this wasn't just a bad month? Yet the whole conversion to a starter, change in mechanics was meaningless? You have definitively concluded that it was an 11 inning sample in September 2011. And the conversion to starter had nothing to do with it.
I haven't given an opinion either way, but to conclude that the conversion to starter had nothing to do with it? That's a reach. Sorry.
HillysLastWalk said:
Because the struggles in September 2011 were fatal to his career. He never got any better. If it was just a bad month you'd expect him to bounce back. He never did. And he had that horrific month using those precious old mechanics everyone loved.
IMO the conversion to starter had zero to do with the implosion of his career. He started losing the ability to pitch in September, and never got it back.
Bard may have been showing signs of trouble in September of 2011, but the conversion to starter process certainly had to complicate things, pitching from the stretch, pacing energy exertion over multiple innings, adjusting to the 5-day routine...
His 2012 implosion in Toronto was like watching a train derail into a refinery during an earthquake. Upper 90's heat coming out of a his hand, destination unknown. It's hard to comprehend there was any room to regress from that performance, but somehow he has... significantly.
Edit: Changed 2013 to 2012. Losing track of the year, can't be a positive congnitive sign, even on a Monday.
His 2012 implosion in Toronto was like watching a train derail into a refinery during an earthquake. Upper 90's heat coming out of a his hand, destination unknown. It's hard to comprehend there was any room to regress from that performance, but somehow he has... significantly.
Edit: Changed 2013 to 2012. Losing track of the year, can't be a positive congnitive sign, even on a Monday.
Smiling Joe Hesketh said:
But we never got to see him pitch in April 2012 in the role he served the previous three years. A whole shitload of variables were added to this to complicate matters.
Again, you can NOT definitively say that his conversion to a starter had nothing to do with his collapse. I'm sorry, you are just wrong here.
(And again, maybe he did lose it in 2011 - I'm not giving an opinion - but with all that 2012 had to offer: new pitching coaches/managing, conversion to starter, etc. - I know for certain you can't rule it out).
Have Farrell, Curt Young or Bob McClure gone on record about any of this? Feel like they would all be in better places to speak from a position of authority on Bard's collapse ... Farrell on what his mechanics were like in 2010, Young on what he was going thru in September, 2011, and McClure on what was happening with his conversion to the rotation in 2012. And hell, Juan Nieves on what the buzzards left of Daniel Bard by the time he got him in 2013.
And yes, I would also add that part of the problem almost assuredly was that Bard had four different guys mucking with his mechanics in four seasons. That can't have helped.
And yes, I would also add that part of the problem almost assuredly was that Bard had four different guys mucking with his mechanics in four seasons. That can't have helped.
Rovin Romine said:
I don't know if he's set for life. The tax man and Bard's agent got a healthy chunk of that $5m. Bard surely has a good head start, but he probably still needs to make some money.
Colin McGowan of Sports on Earth on the former Sox phenom: http://therotation.sportsonearthblog.com/when-the-skill-is-gone/
Thanks for the link, but we have a Bard thread in the MLB board, as he is no longer a Red Sox.
Is there a dope/mod in the house?
Is there a dope/mod in the house?
HriniakPosterChild said:
You can live a pretty good NORMAL life on 2.5mm USD if you don't do anything stupid.
It's like having 50-100k a year extra income and a huge reserve. Before you do anything else.
Don Buddin's GS said:
I guess it's nice to see he's getting national attention, but blaming this on the move to the rotation is weak analysis
TheGoldenGreek33 said:
Pitch F/X has it at 13 inches of horizontal movement at 101 MPH.
Good luck with that kids!
Smiling Joe Hesketh said:
I don't even know how that is possible. It remains the nastiest pitch I've ever seen.
I'm sure Bard will continue to chase this dream for the rest of the season, and potentially next year as well, but I really hope he can come to peace with this eventually. It would make me sadder to have him turn into Mark Prior, who 10 years on was still bouncing from minor league system to system, clinging to the last few grains of sand in the hourglass.
Bard's a 28 year old with a degree from UNC and some money in the bank. Plenty of time for him to find a new career.
Bard's a 28 year old with a degree from UNC and some money in the bank. Plenty of time for him to find a new career.
This goes to show why it's not necessarily a bad thing for young players to sign away arb and FA years for 'team friendly' deals.mauidano said:
Damn, if I could be Mark Prior and play baseball for as long as possible without beingdynomite said:
broke, I'd do it with enthusiasm. It's not sad to chase your dream for as long as you can. Both Prior and Bard realized their dreams and knew it was possible once, and so could be again. Bard's college degree is not going anywhere. I'd ride that hourglass sand until It ran out.
I dunno, is it? I know a few guys who played in the low minors, and they said it was miserable -- constant overnight bus trips, fleabag motels, and salaries around minimum wage.Fred not Lynn said:
In fact, apparently the average MiLB player (singing bonus aside) makes ~$5K per season. Here's detail from the lawsuit that was filed earlier this year (about which I have no opinion -- I'm just linking): http://ftw.usatoday.com/2014/03/minor-leaguers-working-poor-lawsuit-mlb-bud-selig
Obviously you're still playing baseball for a living, but you're also delaying the inevitable. If Bard went to law school next year (please God spare him) he'd be roughly the same age as most of his classmates.
His best bet might be to take some time off. He can try to do whatever he needs to do to address the control issues on his own, without a live batter at the plate. Be it this year or next, I have to think a video of him throwing with better control automatically gets him a ST invite from somebody, if he can't arrange for a private workout with a club.
In all seriousness he should get a job with an Indy league team. What's that league the Long Island Ducks are in? The famous one? Or the Fort Worth Cats. Just get out of his head for a little bit and not worry about getting back to the majors.
Yet they played...despite the low pay, miserable food, long bus rides and cheap motels...dynomite said:
If you're an athlete, and you crave playing, you play, because there's no more beautiful place on earth than the mound, huddle, starting line or batters box...and you cling not just to the dream, but to the moment.
If you reach that moment you don't crave it anymore, you stop. Easy as that. Daniel Bard, despite as brutal and frustrating set of results a guy can imagine, doesn't seem to have reached that point yet. Who are we to tell him it's time to get on with the rest of his life?
And frankly, I have read the law school threads on here...yeah, low minors > law school based on that. Plus you don't need a student loan...
If he goes and plays with the Sugar Land Skeeters, he might as well change his name to Roy McAvoy.
