Expansion is coming

[cshea]

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/nhl-to-announce-opening-of-expansion-process/

Gary is set to announce that the league is opening up and fielding bids for expansion later today. No firm details of how many and where, but Las Vegas is clearly one new team. BOG wants $500 million for the expansion fees.

I'm mostly skeptical of this. They should probably figure out Arizona before adding teams, but what do I know.

 

[BoSoxFink]

This is moronic.  There are already too many teams as a whole and also teams where they don't belong and generate no interest.

 

[soxfan121]

 

[TFP]

There are already too many teams as a whole.

No there isn't. Talent level has never been higher and it's growing even further. This league can definitely absorb 2 more teams from a player talent perspective, especially if a transfer agreement with the KHL comes into play. 
 
Edit: I agree that they should focus on relocation first. But the only real problem team right now is Arizona and maybe Florida, although Florida I attribute to decades of futility more than location.

 

[Scoops Bolling]

From a talent perspective I don't hate this. I think there's definitely enough talent league wide for two more teams. The real problem is shitty choices for some of the existing markets, at least one of which could be easily solved by forcing the Maple Leafs to buck up and fuck off, and putting a team in Hamilton. Hell, even Quebec City is probably better than Florida.

 

[BoSoxFink]

No there isn't. Talent level has never been higher and it's growing even further. This league can definitely absorb 2 more teams from a player talent perspective, especially if a transfer agreement with the KHL comes into play. 
 
Edit: I agree that they should focus on relocation first. But the only real problem team right now is Arizona and maybe Florida, although Florida I attribute to decades of futility more than location.

I wholeheartedly disagree with this.  There are plenty of teams where the fourth lines and even some of the third lines have players that don't belong in the NHL.  This is an argument I would say in all sports though, not just the NHL.  However, do you think the NHL is a league that should be tied with the NFL for most teams in it's league?  As much as we all love hockey, it is still the 4th most popular sport in this country and you can easily say the other three leagues have more people playing their sport and thus more talent as whole, at least USA wise.
 
As for teams that don't have enough interest, I guess it is only Florida and Arizona, but that is still two teams too many.  I would agree with you that they should relocate them to the cities where they want expansion, before adding more teams.  
 
edit: I guess I am in the minority on this thought, but for the bottom dweller teams in the league, I would say that the majority of their third and fourth line guys do not belong, or deserve to be playing in the NHL.

 

[TFP]

The Panthers have made the playoffs once in 14 seasons. Is attendance shitty because the team is shitty, or is the team shitty because attendance is shitty? Tough to tell, but I'm guessing it's more the former than the latter. Tampa Bay was 9th in the league in attendance this year, 10th last year, hockey can work in Florida if the team is good.

 

[kenneycb]

From what I recall hearing, Sunrise is kind of in the middle of nowhere.  Per Google, it's a good 40ish minutes away from Miami.

 

[The Talented Allen Ripley]

I've brought up this point before during similar discussions, but how does Milwaukee not have an NHL team? I have to imagine that market would care a lot more about hockey than Florida, Arizona or Vegas.
 
If it's due to a lack of local deep-pocketed ownership options, then sure, I'll concede. But if I'm a businessman who's looking to invest in an NHL franchise, I'd bet on Milwaukee before any other expansion/relocation candidate.

 

[TFP]

I wholeheartedly disagree with this.  There are plenty of teams where the fourth lines and even some of the third lines have players that don't belong in the NHL.  This is an argument I would say in all sports though, not just the NHL.  However, do you think the NHL is a league that should be tied with the NFL for most teams in it's league?  As much as we all love hockey, it is still the 4th most popular sport in this country and you can easily say the other three leagues have more people playing their sport and thus more talent as whole, at least USA wise.
 
As for teams that don't have enough interest, I guess it is only Florida and Arizona, but that is still two teams too many.  I would agree with you that they should relocate them to the cities where they want expansion, before adding more teams.  

You're insane. Dan Paille is easily an NHL caliber player (as an example). 4th lines are absolutely better than they've ever been, and there is a giant amount of young, skilled players in the AHL and overseas that could play in the NHL tomorrow if needed. Would they be superstars? No way. But a lot of 4th lines today would smoke 2nd and 3rd lines of years ago, and 4th lines back then could barely skate. 
 
The league has never been more skilled. I'd love some examples of 3rd liners who aren't NHL caliber players.

 

[TSC]

Florida can't even support two Baseball teams. There's no way they'd be able to get support for two hockey teams.

Quebec/Hamilton and Seattle would be my two picks if a new team has to go somewhere. I think Vegas would fail spectacularly (though I'd love to see them build the all-party team. Kane, Marchand, Richards, Carter, Seguin, Big Buff).

If it means more hockey I'm for it. I'm not the one who has to justify the shitty attendance.

 

[Salem's Lot]

This is moronic.  There are already too many teams as a whole and also teams where they don't belong and generate no interest.

The league is going to do everything they can to keep teams in top 15 US TV markets like Phoenix & Miami. Relocation isn't going to happen unless it's an Atlanta situation. As long as those franchises have an owner that wants to stay in those markets and a building to play in they're staying there.

 

[TFP]

Florida can't even support two Baseball teams. There's no way they'd be able to get support for two hockey teams.

Quebec/Hamilton and Seattle would be my two picks if a new team has to go somewhere. I think Vegas would fail spectacularly (though I'd love to see them build the all-party team. Kane, Marchand, Richards, Carter, Seguin, Big Buff).

If it means more hockey I'm for it. I'm not the one who has to justify the shitty attendance.

Jarret Stoll would have to be a first round pick for the Vegas all party team, although he could only play home games due to probation.

 

[StuckOnYouk]

From a talent perspective I don't hate this. I think there's definitely enough talent league wide for two more teams. The real problem is shitty choices for some of the existing markets, at least one of which could be easily solved by forcing the Maple Leafs to buck up and fuck off, and putting a team in Hamilton. Hell, even Quebec City is probably better than Florida.

 
 

 

[RIFan]

You're insane. Dan Paille is easily an NHL caliber player (as an example). 4th lines are absolutely better than they've ever been, and there is a giant amount of young, skilled players in the AHL and overseas that could play in the NHL tomorrow if needed. Would they be superstars? No way. But a lot of 4th lines today would smoke 2nd and 3rd lines of years ago, and 4th lines back then could barely skate. 
 
The league has never been more skilled. I'd love some examples of 3rd liners who aren't NHL caliber players.

This is dead on. 15 years ago there were players in the AHL that could barely skate at an pro level. There is now a surplus of players at the AHL level that are definitely credible NHL players. I've been going to AHL games for 25 years and the level of play is substantially different. The change in play towards faster more skilled players also opens up the league to players that due to their size might not have gotten a good look at the NHL level.

The NHL is also different than other leagues in that the gate matters probably more than broadcast revenue. There is no doubt that Quebec and Seattle will do well at the gate. Toronto can definitely support a second team. Vegas and KC are viable as well. Expansion is good for the NHL.

 

[BoSoxFink]

You're insane. Dan Paille is easily an NHL caliber player (as an example). 4th lines are absolutely better than they've ever been, and there is a giant amount of young, skilled players in the AHL and overseas that could play in the NHL tomorrow if needed. Would they be superstars? No way. But a lot of 4th lines today would smoke 2nd and 3rd lines of years ago, and 4th lines back then could barely skate. 
 
The league has never been more skilled. I'd love some examples of 3rd liners who aren't NHL caliber players.

I mean honestly, the whole point is I wouldn't be able to name some of them without looking them up.  But I would venture a guess that the guys rounding out the bottom pairings on offense and defense in Buffalo, Arizona, Carolina and Edmonton would not be classified as NHL caliber players by many.
 
I guess the test would be if those teams were to just straight out drop some of those guys, would other teams pick them up to play on their pro teams?

 

[MuzzyField]

From what I recall hearing, Sunrise is kind of in the middle of nowhere.  Per Google, it's a good 40ish minutes away from Miami.

If the arena in Sunrise was any closer to the Everglades, it would be in the Everglades. 
For pre and post game fun, It's right accross the street from a huge outlet mall.   
The LIghtning play along the Tampa waterfront, Channelside is within walking distance, you can take a trolley to Ybor City or you can take a cab ride to Dale Mabry to see those attractions. 
The Panthers' ownership must have gotten the best of deals to be playing out there.
 
Hail to the Mighty Whale... Brass Bananza!

 

[TFP]

I mean honestly, the whole point is I wouldn't be able to name some of them without looking them up.  But I would venture a guess that the guys rounding out the bottom pairings on offense and defense in Buffalo, Arizona, Carolina and Edmonton would not be classified as NHL caliber players by many.
 
I guess the test would be if those teams were to just straight out drop some of those guys, would other teams pick them up to play on their pro teams?

But not all teams are created equal. Chicago could have 2 lines worth of NHL players in the AHL that can't crack their lineup. The talent is out there, it will just take time to level out. Buffalo is a bad example because they intentionally did not ice an NHL lineup to get Connor McDavid (and failed).
 
But to your point, the 5th and 6th defensmen on Arizona by total TOI this year were Zybnek Michalek and Andrew Campbell. Those are easily NHL caliber defensmen.

 

[BoSoxFink]

For the record, talent level or not, I would have no problem if they would would bring the Whale back!

 

[kenneycb]

Florida can't even support two Baseball teams. There's no way they'd be able to get support for two hockey teams.

Quebec/Hamilton and Seattle would be my two picks if a new team has to go somewhere. I think Vegas would fail spectacularly (though I'd love to see them build the all-party team. Kane, Marchand, Richards, Carter, Seguin, Big Buff).

If it means more hockey I'm for it. I'm not the one who has to justify the shitty attendance.

They can support three football teams and two basketball teams.  The baseball team issues have been cheapness for the Marlins and stadium location for the Rays.  IIRC the Rays actually have/had good TV ratings.
 
Edit: Two football teams.  The Jags...not so much.

 

[cshea]

Just because you can't name bottom 6 guys on Arizona doesn't mean they aren't any good.

I'm not worried about spreading the talent out too thin, I'm more concerned about creating 2 more Arizona situations financially.

 

[Carmine Hose]

This was inevitable when they made the East 16 teams and the West 14 teams.  Vegas and Seattle balance out the conferences.  Put Vegas in the Central and Seattle in the Pacific.
 
What will be interesting is how GMs will prepare their rosters to take on the expansion draft.

 

[MuzzyField]

I agree with the overall increase in skill level at the NHL level, but how much better have the top two lines gotten in comparision to the 3rd and 4th? Is the gap similar to the past just with different start and end points?

 

[kenneycb]

This was inevitable when they made the East 16 teams and the West 14 teams.  Vegas and Seattle balance out the conferences.  Put Vegas in the Central and Seattle in the Pacific.
 
What will be interesting is how GMs will prepare their rosters to take on the expansion draft.

My guess is in this scenario they move one of Edmonton, Calgary or Arizona into the Central by means of time zone matching.

 

[RIFan]

I mean honestly, the whole point is I wouldn't be able to name some of them without looking them up.  But I would venture a guess that the guys rounding out the bottom pairings on offense and defense in Buffalo, Arizona, Carolina and Edmonton would not be classified as NHL caliber players by many.
 
I guess the test would be if those teams were to just straight out drop some of those guys, would other teams pick them up to play on their pro teams?

Don't confuse the ability of some teams to identify talent with the availability of talent. Those teams were also in tank mode for draft position.

 

[BoSoxFink]

But not all teams are created equal. Chicago could have 2 lines worth of NHL players in the AHL that can't crack their lineup. The talent is out there, it will just take time to level out. Buffalo is a bad example because they intentionally did not ice an NHL lineup to get Connor McDavid (and failed).
 
But to your point, the 5th and 6th defensmen on Arizona by total TOI this year were Zybnek Michalek and Andrew Campbell. Those are easily NHL caliber defensmen.

I guess it is a matter of one's opinion on what they want to see.  This of course would never, ever happen, but I would love it if the league were to go down to about 20 teams.  The pace of play and talent in the league would be just incredible to watch.  Games would be a blast.  I suppose my problem is that watching the 4th liners on most teams doesn't elicit a ton of exciting play to watch.  Grind it out defensive hockey can blow to watch, but of course that is a matter of opinion.  
 
Don't get me wrong, I love the NHL and obviously will not stop watching.  I just think of how incredibly exciting play could be with less teams.

 

[MuzzyField]

They can support three football teams and two basketball teams.  The baseball team issues have been cheapness for the Marlins and stadium location for the Rays.  IIRC the Rays actually have/had good TV ratings.
 
Edit: Two football teams.  The Jags...not so much.

They do, I think they rank in the top-10.  It has to help that they are pretty much available state-wide in a state with 20-million people.  Thank's to the MLB blackout policy they get to count me for 19 games a season.  How many RSN's have this kind of reach?

 

[RIFan]

 
What will be interesting is how GMs will prepare their rosters to take on the expansion draft.

That's a good point. This will be different than prior expansion drafts due to the tight salary cap that would encourage teams to leave some high cost, but still productive vets in the pool. The necessity of reaching the cap floor will make it likely that many of them will get picked.

 

[BoSoxFink]

That's a good point. This will be different than prior expansion drafts due to the tight salary cap that would encourage teams to leave some high cost, but still productive vets in the pool. The necessity of reaching the cap floor will make it likely that many of them will get picked.

This would make the expansion incredibly interesting, I can't doubt that.

 

[Monbo Jumbo]

 
 

 
 

 
ESPN's Criag Custance tweeting pics from the Las Vegas arena construction site today. 

 

[TFP]

I suppose my problem is that watching the 4th liners on most teams doesn't elicit a ton of exciting play to watch.  Grind it out defensive hockey can blow to watch, but of course that is a matter of opinion.  

Who says 4th liners are always defensive, grind it out players? Don't confuse the NHL of today with the NHL of 5 or 10 years ago. 
 
Also, who says that it's 4th liners that would go to the other teams? Maybe it's the first line of AHL players. It could have meant the Spooners, the Khoklachevs, the Warsofskys, etc around the league that now have a chance to play.

 

[BoSoxFink]

Who says 4th liners are always defensive, grind it out players? Don't confuse the NHL of today with the NHL of 5 or 10 years ago. 
 
Also, who says that it's 4th liners that would go to the other teams? Maybe it's the first line of AHL players. It could have meant the Spooners, the Khoklachevs, the Warsofskys, etc around the league that now have a chance to play.

fair enough, I suppose it's happening no matter what now so we will have to see how it plays out

 

[yeahlunchbox]

I wholeheartedly disagree with this.  There are plenty of teams where the fourth lines and even some of the third lines have players that don't belong in the NHL.  This is an argument I would say in all sports though, not just the NHL.  However, do you think the NHL is a league that should be tied with the NFL for most teams in it's league?  As much as we all love hockey, it is still the 4th most popular sport in this country and you can easily say the other three leagues have more people playing their sport and thus more talent as whole, at least USA wise.
 
As for teams that don't have enough interest, I guess it is only Florida and Arizona, but that is still two teams too many.  I would agree with you that they should relocate them to the cities where they want expansion, before adding more teams.  
 
edit: I guess I am in the minority on this thought, but for the bottom dweller teams in the league, I would say that the majority of their third and fourth line guys do not belong, or deserve to be playing in the NHL.

 
In regards to available talent to support franchises, I don't see where hockey being the fourth most popular sport in the US is relevant when hockey has Canada, Russia and other European nations making up the disparity in talent in the US. Worldwide I would imagine that hockey has more talent available to play the game then both football and baseball.

 

[BoSoxFink]

 
In regards to available talent to support franchises, I don't see where hockey being the fourth most popular sport in the US is relevant when hockey has Canada, Russia and other European nations making up the disparity in talent in the US. Worldwide I would imagine that hockey has more talent available to play the game then both football and baseball.

hockey definitely has more talent worldwide than football for sure. Baseball, on the other hand would be a lot closer.

 

[Bozo Texino]

I haven't been following expansion too closely - I'm very surprised to see that the arena in Las Vegas is so far along.  The photos make it look small, but it's apparently a 20,000 seater.  I'm skeptical as to how well they'll draw, but them being the only "big four" game in town will certainly help.
 
As for where else to go, it has to be Seattle, Quebec City, and Toronto/Hamilton.  I just spent a week up in the Pacific Northwest - I was really surprised to see how big the I-5 corridor is.  Population wise, that area can definitely support a team.  If they can get the same sort of grassroots fandom that the Sounders have cultivated, they'll be a fun team to watch.
 
EDIT: Ditto cshea's thoughts that the Glendale situation really needs to be 100% sorted before any of this goes forward.

 

[Spacemans Bong]

It'll be interesting to see what they do with Quebec. I don't think Bettman wants a team there and they're the perfect fallback option if something blows up. But I can't imagine Pierre-Karl Peladeau paid hundreds of millions for French language NHL rights if there wasn't a quid pro quo that he's getting a damn team at some point.

 

[Greg29fan]

I hate this idea except the possibility of sticking expansion teams with Chris Kunitz and Rob Scuderi in the draft is making me giddy.

 

[Vegas Sox Fan]

I haven't been following expansion too closely - I'm very surprised to see that the arena in Las Vegas is so far along.  The photos make it look small, but it's apparently a 20,000 seater.  I'm skeptical as to how well they'll draw, but them being the only "big four" game in town will certainly help.
 

 
MGM broke ground on the arena well before expansion talks kicked off. Well at least before expansion talks were made public. It's going to be a nice arena with an outdoor shopping/dining mall connecting it to the Monte Carlo and NY/NY. I think they will draw simply for location if nothing else. Casinos handing out comp tickets to gamblers won't hurt either.  

 

[McDrew]

You know what I'd love to see and will never happen?  4 expansion teams, and then a 2 year "don't suck" competition that ends up with the culling of 2 franchises that are atrocities upon the league.  
No idea what criteria, and no one would go for it, ever, but its a fun idea.   

 

[Bozo Texino]

You know what I'd love to see and will never happen?  4 expansion teams, and then a 2 year "don't suck" competition that ends up with the culling of 2 franchises that are atrocities upon the league.  
No idea what criteria, and no one would go for it, ever, but its a fun idea.   

 
...so no more Leafs, then?

 

[cshea]

Bettman talking now...nothing earth shattering. Open for applications beginning in July through 8/10. No real timetable. They'll review the applications and make decisions from there, so it's not set in stone that they expand. The big 3 are Quebec City, Seattle and Las Vegas.

(The obvious solution here is Arizona to one of those destinations, then the 2 others in with expansion)

 

[BoSoxFink]

Is this for this upcoming season? Or is it for the following year?

 

[cshea]

No timetable.

Daly now says earliest an expansion team could play is the 17/18 season.

$500 million is the minimum get-in price.

 

[OCST]

You know what I'd love to see and will never happen?  4 expansion teams, and then a 2 year "don't suck" competition that ends up with the culling of 2 franchises that are atrocities upon the league.  
No idea what criteria, and no one would go for it, ever, but its a fun idea.   

 
I think a soccer-style promotion/relegation with the AHL would be viable, and fun.  It would also make a certain kind of rough justice, as Florida and Arizona would have been relegated by now, and while the "minnows" of the AHL wouldn't have a realistic chance of getting up and staying up for long, the biggest AHL markets might be better NHL markets than the NHL dregs - San Antonio, Charlotte, Cleveland, Indianapolis, Hamilton, Hartford, Milwaukee, a second Toronto team, a second Chicago team.  Even Des Moines or Hershey would be better than the shit Panthers.
 
I would love to see this.
 
Edit: of course it would never happen, because you can't squeeze new owners for half a billion in franchise fees, and then essentially take away their franchise.  Well, you could, but obviously nobody sane would drop that kind of coin and risk losing their TV money (and replace Original Six teams in their barn with the likes of St. John's and Worcester).

 

[veritas]

 
MGM broke ground on the arena well before expansion talks kicked off. Well at least before expansion talks were made public. It's going to be a nice arena with an outdoor shopping/dining mall connecting it to the Monte Carlo and NY/NY. I think they will draw simply for location if nothing else. Casinos handing out comp tickets to gamblers won't hurt either.  

 
I agree, I think the Vegas market is very underrated by most people and think a team in any of the big four pro leagues would thrive there. It'll be the only place in the country you can bet on a live sporting event you're attending. All of the big casinos will have luxury boxes and I'd think even most the smaller ones will have at least a few season tickets. Having minimal local fan support will be an interesting challenge, along with TV revenue, but I think they'll have no trouble drawing based on tourism alone. Think of all the dumb shows on the strip that tons of people go to. People will buy tickets just because it's something to do and they can bet on it.
 
Good for the NHL for taking a bold step like this. I think it's a good way to market the game to casual fans, it's going to get a lot of people to their first hockey game who otherwise would never have gone.

 

[RIFan]

No way you'll be able to bet on an LV team. Keeping them off the sports book will be a requirement to get a team.

 

[veritas]

No way you'll be able to bet on an LV team. Keeping them off the sports book will be a requirement to get a team.

 
Well then, I retract my statement, this is an AWFUL idea

 

[Eddie Jurak]

Can we unload some salary in an expansion draft? /dreaming

 

[Spacemans Bong]

Re: talent, worth remembering with the crashing Russian economy that a lot of KHL guys will be good enough as bottom six players on NHL teams, and they'll want to play for a team that pays them on time. 

 

[Fred not Lynn]

No way you'll be able to bet on an LV team. Keeping them off the sports book will be a requirement to get a team.

 
The NHL isn't nearly as uptight about gambling as other sports. Numerous government run lotteries in Canada offer a sports betting product, featuring NHL (and other) sport play - to the point where the Canadian NHL teams aren't fighting to get the practice banned, they're making noise about getting a cut.