Expansion is coming

[John Marzano Olympic Hero]

 
The NHL isn't nearly as uptight about gambling as other sports. Numerous government run lotteries in Canada offer a sports betting product, featuring NHL (and other) sport play - to the point where the Canadian NHL teams aren't fighting to get the practice banned, they're making noise about getting a cut.

 
Really? The NHL wasn't too happy with Rick Tocchet after his gambling incident.

 

[Fred not Lynn]

 
Really? The NHL wasn't too happy with Rick Tocchet after his gambling incident.

No league is going to take kindly to illegal gambling. It's more that the NHL in principle seems less stressed about it, both in that there's little league angst about the various lottery based sports betting products, and yes, they're poised to be the first major sports league to set up shop in Las Vegas.

At this point, though, sports gambling is generally accessible enough that it's not like you being in Las Vegas makes a difference. If someone wants to fix games, you can do that anywhere.

 

[Fred not Lynn]

...On another note - and our Atlanta people can chime in on this; Had the Thrashers been able to stick it out a few more years, I think it may well have been possible for them to find a better home in an arena which could have been built along with the new Cobb County Braves ballpark. The rationale for that whole development is that that's where more Braves fans are from - and I think that rings even more true for ice hockey. (yes, I think what I mean is upper middle class white people - but you're not allowed to say it that way).
 
Maybe I just think that because I get a whole Glendale, AZ vibe from the whole Cobb County deal - minus some of the blatant incompetence exhibited by the Glendale City Council...

 

[FL4WL3SS]

I've brought up this point before during similar discussions, but how does Milwaukee not have an NHL team? I have to imagine that market would care a lot more about hockey than Florida, Arizona or Vegas.
 
If it's due to a lack of local deep-pocketed ownership options, then sure, I'll concede. But if I'm a businessman who's looking to invest in an NHL franchise, I'd bet on Milwaukee before any other expansion/relocation candidate.

I've always said that Green Bay and hockey were meant for each other.
 
Wisconsin definitely needs a pro hockey team, I agree. It's a great hockey state.

 

[Fred not Lynn]

I've always said that Green Bay and hockey were meant for each other.
 
Wisconsin definitely needs a pro hockey team, I agree. It's a great hockey state.

 
Don't be fooled by the fact Milwaukee has a Major League Basebal team - it isn't a major league market, If the commisioner wasn't the owner it's a AAA town. And while UW is a legendary NCAA program, the Milwaukee area isn't really a rich, thriving hockey hotbed. It should be - no reason not to be like Minnesota, New England and Michigan on that score, but it just isn't. Hockey is a definite afterthought in Wisconsin's biggest city, and the other cities are too small to balance that off.
 
And no, Green Bay works for football because attending a football game is a major nearly full-weekend event. Hockey needs to be somewhere you can get home from after on a weeknight. It's Milwaukee or nothing if you're talking about Wisconsin, and Milwaukee doesn't, in my opinion, have the quantity of population and business to pull that off without a very-heightened specific interest in ice hockey - which the city lacks.

 

[FL4WL3SS]

 
Don't be fooled by the fact Milwaukee has a Major League Basebal team - it isn't a major league market, If the commisioner wasn't the owner it's a AAA town. And while UW is a legendary NCAA program, the Milwaukee area isn't really a rich, thriving hockey hotbed. It should be - no reason not to be like Minnesota, New England and Michigan on that score, but it just isn't. Hockey is a definite afterthought in Wisconsin's biggest city, and the other cities are too small to balance that off.
 
And no, Green Bay works for football because attending a football game is a major nearly full-weekend event. Hockey needs to be somewhere you can get home from after on a weeknight. It's Milwaukee or nothing if you're talking about Wisconsin, and Milwaukee doesn't, in my opinion, have the quantity of population and business to pull that off without a very-heightened specific interest in ice hockey - which the city lacks.

Well then

 

[Zososoxfan]

If the arena in Sunrise was any closer to the Everglades, it would be in the Everglades. 
For pre and post game fun, It's right accross the street from a huge outlet mall.   
The LIghtning play along the Tampa waterfront, Channelside is within walking distance, you can take a trolley to Ybor City or you can take a cab ride to Dale Mabry to see those attractions. 
The Panthers' ownership must have gotten the best of deals to be playing out there.
 
Hail to the Mighty Whale... Brass Bananza!

 
I can vouch for this. The Sunrise location would be a huge impediment for any franchise, let alone a hockey franchise in Florida. In sharp contrast, Jeff Vinik, the Lightning owner, is basically reshaping the entire southern portion of downtown Tampa around the team, the arena, and his real estate holdings. If things go according to plan In the next few years, he will have revitalized a downtown neighborhood and the team will be a primary benefactor. Relatedly, the discussion of relocating the Rays is all about getting them closer to this area as well (with an alternative in Carillon within Pinellas getting less momentum, but I digress).
 

 
MGM broke ground on the arena well before expansion talks kicked off. Well at least before expansion talks were made public. It's going to be a nice arena with an outdoor shopping/dining mall connecting it to the Monte Carlo and NY/NY. I think they will draw simply for location if nothing else. Casinos handing out comp tickets to gamblers won't hurt either.  

 
Good grief, can you imagine how many people in drunken gambling-induced stupors will stumble into the matinees?? Actually, that's going to be just about every game. It will probably work.

 

[Monbo Jumbo]

...On another note - and our Atlanta people can chime in on this; Had the Thrashers been able to stick it out a few more years, I think it may well have been possible for them to find a better home in an arena which could have been built along with the new Cobb County Braves ballpark. The rationale for that whole development is that that's where more Braves fans are from - and I think that rings even more true for ice hockey. (yes, I think what I mean is upper middle class white people - but you're not allowed to say it that way).
 
Maybe I just think that because I get a whole Glendale, AZ vibe from the whole Cobb County deal - minus some of the blatant incompetence exhibited by the Glendale City Council...

 
The problem is attracting the NBA would have been a non-starter, as the Hawks and downtown arena share ownership. 
 
The NHL won't be back to Atlanta in my lifetime. 

 

[Fred not Lynn]

 
The problem is attracting the NBA would have been a non-starter, as the Hawks and downtown arena share ownership. 
 
The NHL won't be back to Atlanta in my lifetime. 

No, I agree - just was speculating on whether a Cobb County hockey and concert only arena (as at Glendale) might have given them a chance to stay if they were still there. No one's coming back anytime soon after TWO failed teams.

 

[TeddyBallgame'sDirtbagSon]

http://mweb.cbssports.com/nhl/eye-on-hockey/25246007/las-vegas-quebec-city-groups-submit-applications-for-nhl-expansion

Only Vegas and Quebec submitted applications. Seattle chose not to

 

[Bozo Texino]

http://mweb.cbssports.com/nhl/eye-on-hockey/25246007/las-vegas-quebec-city-groups-submit-applications-for-nhl-expansion

Only Vegas and Quebec submitted applications. Seattle chose not to

 
I'm guessing a big reason for only two offers was that $2 million of the $10 million deposit that was non-refundable.

 

[MiracleOfO2704]

http://mweb.cbssports.com/nhl/eye-on-hockey/25246007/las-vegas-quebec-city-groups-submit-applications-for-nhl-expansion

Only Vegas and Quebec submitted applications. Seattle chose not to

They're probably the only two locations able to take on a team on any timetable. Seattle's not at the point of putting shovels in the ground, and GTA2 is even further behind.

 

[Fred not Lynn]

So if you paid your $2 million non-refundable expansion fee, and wind up taking the Coyo...err, a relocated team, do you get that $2 mil back?

 

[cshea]

My wild ass guess is they'll award the 2 expansion teams to Vegas and Quebec City. Keeps everything neat and clean. Then the cities that didn't submit an application, but are close to being ready and have shown some interest (Seattld, KC, GTA?) duke it out for the Coyotes.

 

[Carmine Hose]

If it's Quebec City, who moves to the West?  Detroit back to the Central?

 

[McDrew]

If it's Quebec City, who moves to the West?  Detroit back to the Central?

I think this is the biggest issue now that we know where the two teams are most likely going.  I think there are a few possible solutions:
 
1) Move Detroit back to the West and have the state of Michigan move to CST
2) Move FLA or CAR to Seattle/Portland/some other western city
3) Complete realignment, again.
 
Time-zone-wise, there are 5 total Pacific time zone teams(including LV), 4 Mountain, 6 Central, and 17 East(including QC).  At least 1 east coast time team has to be with Central and Mountain teams.  Sucks to be someone, at the very least

 

[Monbo Jumbo]

 
Viva Las Vegas

 

[Murby]

 
Viva Las Vegas

Wouldn't it have made more sense to build the arena down into the ground or is that not possible given the need to make ice? Serious question. I would think the air conditioning costs would be less if they could engineer that. Also, surprised Seattle didn't bid considering they have a building approved last I checked.
 
Edit: Spelling.

 

[Beomoose]

Sorry for the late catch on this

Also, surprised Seattle didn't bid considering they have a building approved last I checked.
 

The deal for the proposed arena in Seattle has a tripwire, namely that the arena deal with the City and County requires the owners group to have an NBA team in-hand before the $200 mil in public money comes in. The County and City councils have indicated they'd approve an amended deal that would go forward without having an NBA team, but only if the prospective owners ate most (or potentially all) of that $200 mil. There seem to have been negotiations going on among the various rich people and council members involved, but the short window for expansion bids that the NHL set closed too quickly. 
 
And that overview is just for the Sodo arena proposal, there's groups in Bellevue and Tukwila both pursuing their own NBA/NHL arenas in the event the Sodo plan never happens. 

 

[Leather]

Wouldn't it have made more sense to build the arena down into the ground or is that not possible given the need to make ice? Serious question. I would think the air conditioning costs would be less if they could engineer that. Also, surprised Seattle didn't bid considering they have a building approved last I checked.
 
Edit: Spelling.

Vegas highs in the winter are only in the 50s and 60s, usually. Plus, the value of the advertising space/exposure of the building is more valuable than any incremental cost in AC. Finally, digging further down would increase build costs.

If building down was a good idea, Vegas casinos would have done it already.

 

[MiracleOfO2704]

I'm not taking these two pieces seriously, because just about any US national sports publication has long ago given up on hockey as a worthwhile pursuit, but SI's Allan Muir had a couple of contradictory articles on consecutive days. On Tuesday, he argued that the weak Canadian dollar is scaring the NHL away from Quebec City expansion, but put out an article the next day theorizing that the Hurricanes could move up there if Karmanos can't find a seller for the Whalers]Hurricanes in the Triangle.
 
That said, the idea of the Hurricanes moving to QC did get me thinking about a minor realignment that would allow the NHL to expand to Vegas and Seattle as they'd like, get the NHL into QC, and balance out the divisions. Assuming both events go down that way, Quebec would be sitting in the Metro Division with two teams that could be best considered West Coast teams coming into the league. So how to make that work is:
 
-Move Quebec and Columbus to the Atlantic Division, with the two Florida teams replacing them in the Metro Division. Columbus doesn't have the old Patrick Division history of the NYC/PA/DC teams, and while Florida and TB would now be EXTREMELY isolated on the NHL map, sliding to the Metro is their best chance of having a normal sports existence.
 
-Arizona to the Central Division. There's no good way to make the expansion to Seattle and LV work otherwise. The Alberta teams aren't going to be split up. The rest of the Division is actually on the Pacific Ocean. The only other possibility would have been Las Vegas to the Central, but they're further west than Glendale.
 
So you'd have the following divisions going forward:
 
Atlantic
-Boston
-Buffalo
-Columbus
-Detroit
-Montreal
-Ottawa
-Quebec
-Toronto
 
Metropolitan
-Florida
-New Jersey
-NY Islanders
-NY Rangers
-Philadelphia
-Pittsburgh
-Tampa Bay
-Washington
 
Central
-Arizona
-Chicago
-Colorado
-Dallas
-Minnesota
-Nashville
-St. Louis
-Winnipeg
 
Pacific
-Anaheim
-Calgary
-Edmonton
-Las Vegas
-Los Angeles
-San Jose
-Seattle
-Vancouver