Extending Lester

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snowmanny

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Regarding the "inconsistency" point that Apisith raises, the other side of this is whether the Red Sox think his poor stretches can be fixed. Yes he wasn't great in 2012, but this was with an inferior coaching staff.

And in 2013 he had a 10 game stretch where he put up a 6.49 ERA. In his other 28 games his ERA was 2.48. What if you can eliminate or at least shorten those times when something is off? It wouldn't shock me at all if Lester to had a couple of CY contender seasons in him.
 

smastroyin

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Yes, I should have made it a point to say that the current year numbers for Lester have not been affected by his annual bad spell.
 
I was talking a lot about Lester last night and the thing is, while noone is a sure bet, overpaying for Lester seems to mean you pay a lot of money for a guy that gives you 200 or so average innings.  Not something we necessarily want to do, but probably a better risk than paying someone a lot of money to blow out their elbow or shoulder.  Lester does one thing consistently well, and that is take the mound.  Since beating cancer, the only year in which he hasn't made every possible start is 2011.  That was also the only year he was under 200 innings.  Over the course of those 6 years (2008-2013), the Red Sox only had two other pitcher seasons above 200 innings (Beckett 2009, Lackey 2010).  Yes, there is downside risk.  Maybe he goes into a bad streak and doesn't come out of it.  Maybe the fact that he hasn't been really injured over the course of the last 6 years means he is "due", whatever else you want to come up with.  But there is risk with everyone.
 
On the other hand, if he's figured something out and can bring his BB rate down into the mid to low 2's while not losing all of his other peripherals, he's a Cy Young contender.  So there is upside risk as well.
 

WenZink

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The Gray Eagle said:
So we're scared of paying Lester $20 million for his age 36 and 37 seasons, so to avoid that we're going to give up valuable prospects to pay Lee $27 million for his age 36 and 37 seasons? Or failing that, we'll probably have to sign some other veteran pitcher to a long term, big money deal. Who will probably be new to Boston and new to the AL East.
 
....
 
1. The Red Sox, not me, are scared of committing to pay Lester $20 mil for his 36/37 seasons 5 years ahead.  They might feel safer committing to Lee just a few months ahead,
2. As for giving up "valuable prospects," all prospects don't have the same value, and some have more value to another organization than their present org.  10.5 years ago the Red  Sox gave up Fossum, Lyons and J De La Rosa for another 35/36 year old pitcher - were they valuable prospects?  The AAV was less, back in Nov, 2003, but the committed years were longer since Schilling got a year added to his deal.
3. And if the Red Sox have to add another vet pitcher with a long-term big money deal, then they would have failed at executing their publicly, announced plan of operations,  But don't presume it's going to fail before they try.
 

smastroyin

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Except to a couple people, those were not "valuable prospects."  If the Red Sox could trade Brandon Workman, Burke Badenhop, and Teddy Stankiwiecz for Lee, noone here is really going to complain about the prospects they gave up.  Also, however, there is a difference between coming within a few outs of the World Series and having your hearts ripped out and going into the off-season...and trading for someone mid-season just after winning the World Series.
 

WenZink

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smastroyin said:
Except to a couple people, those were not "valuable prospects."  If the Red Sox could trade Brandon Workman, Burke Badenhop, and Teddy Stankiwiecz for Lee, noone here is really going to complain about the prospects they gave up.  Also, however, there is a difference between coming within a few outs of the World Series and having your hearts ripped out and going into the off-season...and trading for someone mid-season just after winning the World Series.
 
Replace Badhenhop with Britton and you'd be closer to equivalency, since all would be 24 or under..  Soxprospects ranks Workman, Britton and Stank as #8, #14 and #16 in a very deep system.
 

ivanvamp

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The thing that's going to be a real mother about signing Lester to a 6-year deal (which is what I think most people believe it will take), is this:  If you sign him, you're glad for the first few years but are dreading the overpay at the back end of the contract.  If you don't sign him, you watch him be a great pitcher for the next few years for one of our rival teams.
 
I just wish he'd accept 4/100 and call it a day.
 

kieckeredinthehead

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I think that Lester sees guys like Pedroia signing long contracts so that they can retire as Red Sox , and that's what he envisions when he says he'll give a home town discount. He's looking for a 6 or 7 year deal from Boston so that he can retire with them, but willing to take a lower AAV. My guess is he'd be more likely to sign 6/120 than 4/100. But if he gets to free agency, somebody's going to be offering a lot more than anything the Red Sox would be comfortable paying.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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kieckeredinthehead said:
I think that Lester sees guys like Pedroia signing long contracts so that they can retire as Red Sox , and that's what he envisions when he says he'll give a home town discount. He's looking for a 6 or 7 year deal from Boston so that he can retire with them, but willing to take a lower AAV. My guess is he'd be more likely to sign 6/120 than 4/100. But if he gets to free agency, somebody's going to be offering a lot more than anything the Red Sox would be comfortable paying.
 
The thing is, for a position player it's a lot easier for a team to trust that a long contract won't handcuff them at the end of the deal.  If/when Pedroia starts breaking down, it will likely be defensively first.  In such a case, they can DH him or move him to 3B or the OF (his height might be detrimental to him being a 1B however).  He might be a bit overpaid for what he'll contribute, but they can still get something out of him even on a part-time basis.
 
For a pitcher, particularly a starter, when he starts to go south, what do they do with him?  Pay him a 10-digit salary to be the mop-up guy in the pen?  Run him out every five days a la 2010 John Lackey?  There's an inherent risk with any pitcher that they can lose it at any moment and not have it be injury related.  Odds are good that Pedroia at age 36 is only going to fail to be a contributor if he's hurt.  Lester could be a mediocre to below average pitcher and still be in general good health.
 
So the idea that Lester can get extra years for a discount in dollars because Pedroia did doesn't really fly, IMO.  If that's what he meant by a hometown discount, then he's setting himself up for disappointment.
 

Plympton91

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I wonder about overpaying Lester to take shorter years is really the better option. If the luxury tax really is a de facto cap then why tie up $ 5 million for 4 years. That's a Gomes or a Uehara that you have to pass on. I'd rather take the chance of getting 4 good years and potentially 2 big overpay years than a guarantee of overpaying by a smaller amount for 4 years. To me it's still a 6 year, $ 108 million contract that makes the most sense for both sides. The longer they go into the season the closer Lester gets to an opening bid of 5/$100 and that long term guarantee doesn't look so good. Isn't he from WA? Wouldn't he look like a great #2 between Felix and Iwakuma?
 

chrisfont9

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Plympton91 said:
Isn't he from WA? Wouldn't he look like a great #2 between Felix and Iwakuma?
Next to zero chance he comes back here to Seattle. I think he lives in Texas in the offseason now. There's never any talk of him hanging around Tacoma (where he grew up). And the Mariners are fairly certain not to make a massive overpay in the rotation when they have Paxton and Walker penciled in for this year, plus Hultzen rehabbing his way back, and that's with Elias looking like a credible #4/5 already. They have too many other holes.
 

HriniakPosterChild

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ivanvamp said:
The thing that's going to be a real mother about signing Lester to a 6-year deal (which is what I think most people believe it will take), is this:  If you sign him, you're glad for the first few years but are dreading the overpay at the back end of the contract.  If you don't sign him, you watch him be a great pitcher for the next few years for one of our rival teams.
 
I just wish he'd accept 4/100 and call it a day.
 
I wish he'd play for league minimum on a Wakefield "reserve clause" deal, but...
 
I have no idea why any player would take anything other than the best offer once he gets to free agency.
 

LahoudOrBillyC

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The bbref comps are based solely on counting numbers.  They are a toy which can be used to say "hey, his raw numbers are kind of like this guys".  They are not to be used for projections.  Something like PECOTA comps are adjusted for everything, and are much more useful for this purpose.
 

chrisfont9

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HriniakPosterChild said:
I have no idea why any player would take anything other than the best offer once he gets to free agency.
Literally? 1. Chance to win a WS; 2. Living someplace that works for the family... etc. Happens often enough, but only when you have multiple offers in the same ballpark. The Sox don't have to outbid everyone to retain Lester, presumably, but they have to offer something close to the highest bid before they can count on any other factor.
 

bankshot1

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HriniakPosterChild said:
 

I have no idea why any player would take anything other than the best offer once he gets to free agency.
Lester was on record as not relishing change, as in he likes his routine. So rather than putting himself and family in a new foreign environment, he rationalized giving up the last dollar (and taking a discount) for the predictability of a known lifestyle/workplace.
 
IMO if the Sox had made an early (during ST) strong play of 5/90-100, they could have gotten that discount to some some estimate of his market value. But by low-balling they lost control of the process, and Lester has every reason to see how the FA market values him, and I sense the Sox will not  be competitive to the strongest bids.   
 

nvalvo

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Plympton91 said:
I wonder about overpaying Lester to take shorter years is really the better option. If the luxury tax really is a de facto cap then why tie up $ 5 million for 4 years. That's a Gomes or a Uehara that you have to pass on. I'd rather take the chance of getting 4 good years and potentially 2 big overpay years than a guarantee of overpaying by a smaller amount for 4 years. To me it's still a 6 year, $ 108 million contract that makes the most sense for both sides. The longer they go into the season the closer Lester gets to an opening bid of 5/$100 and that long term guarantee doesn't look so good. Isn't he from WA? Wouldn't he look like a great #2 between Felix and Iwakuma?
 
Here's why: due to the influx of prearb players (Bradley and Bogaerts this year, the various pitchers, catchers and third basemen on the horizon) and outgoing FAs (Lackey, Peavy, AJP, Gomes, Napoli, Victorino) the team projects to be far beneath the LT threshold for the next few years. As those players start getting expensive in arbitration and/or signing extensions their AAVs will ramp back up quickly. 
 
In short, we have plenty of cap space for the 2015-2018 period. 
 

JimD

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bankshot1 said:
IMO if the Sox had made an early (during ST) strong play of 5/90-100, they could have gotten that discount to some some estimate of his market value. But by low-balling they lost control of the process, and Lester has every reason to see how the FA market values him, and I sense the Sox will not  be competitive to the strongest bids.   
 
This seems to be a popular narrative, and it may well be the truth, but we have no idea.  The news of the 4/$70 deal apparently came from a disgruntled teammate.  The front office will say nothing, of course, nor seemingly have his agents been talking to the press.  It's entirely possible that the offer was 4/$70 guaranteed with two or three option years tacked on that would bring it north of $100 million if Lester remains healthy and effective.  The fact that both parties have a history of working together amicably and that there has been nothing communicated since some player whispered in Ken Rosenthal's ear has me at least a little bit optimistic.
 

WenZink

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JimD said:
 
This seems to be a popular narrative, and it may well be the truth, but we have no idea.  The news of the 4/$70 deal apparently came from a disgruntled teammate.  The front office will say nothing, of course, nor seemingly have his agents been talking to the press.  It's entirely possible that the offer was 4/$70 guaranteed with two or three option years tacked on that would bring it north of $100 million if Lester remains healthy and effective.  The fact that both parties have a history of working together amicably and that there has been nothing communicated since some player whispered in Ken Rosenthal's ear has me at least a little bit optimistic.
 
My take is that when the Sox and Lester had their talks, one or both sides didn't have a real idea of what they were willing to offer/willing to accept.  A hometown discount off of what?
 
Lester is an extremely intense competitor, it works for him, most of the time, but occasionally works against him.  You wonder how he'll deal with the inevitable decline in his physical skills.  Will he resign himself to the inevitable and make adjustments, or will he stubbornly try to fight it?  I'd still give him a long-term deal, because even if the decline is significant, we'd still have the hardest working 4th starter in the league.  But I'm a Lester fan, and it's not my money.
 

bankshot1

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JimD said:
 
This seems to be a popular narrative, and it may well be the truth, but we have no idea.  The news of the 4/$70 deal apparently came from a disgruntled teammate.  The front office will say nothing, of course, nor seemingly have his agents been talking to the press.  It's entirely possible that the offer was 4/$70 guaranteed with two or three option years tacked on that would bring it north of $100 million if Lester remains healthy and effective.  The fact that both parties have a history of working together amicably and that there has been nothing communicated since some player whispered in Ken Rosenthal's ear has me at least a little bit optimistic.
Its the popular narrative because it makes sense and fits the facts that we know.
 
We know that the Sox offered Lester 4/70, and it was declined. (other stuff is speculation). We also know a team-mate leaked the offer. I think we can infer that there might have been a disgruntled Lester disclosing to the leaker that he was less than pleased with the Sox offer. Further we know that Lester was quoted as being pleased with early discussions and said that if they got close to the goal-line, talks would continue into the season. Talks ended, they weren't close. Lester has every reason to test the FA market. IMO the Sox's offer was a poor play, and they lost control of the process
 

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SoxVindaloo

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bankshot1 said:
Its the popular narrative because it makes sense and fits the facts that we know.
 
We know that the Sox offered Lester 4/70, and it was declined. (other stuff is speculation). We also know a team-mate leaked the offer. I think we can infer that there might have been a disgruntled Lester disclosing to the leaker that he was less than pleased with the Sox offer. Further we know that Lester was quoted as being pleased with early discussions and said that if they got close to the goal-line, talks would continue into the season. Talks ended, they weren't close. Lester has every reason to test the FA market. IMO the Sox's offer was a poor play, and they lost control of the process
It has been mentioned upthread briefly, but is their great fear Roy Halladay? At age 34 he put together a ERA + of 163 followed by an ERA + of 90 at age 35 and then 56 at age 36. Is age 36 what they are trying so hard to avoid? Does 5/105 get it done in this scenario? 5/110?
 

Plympton91

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wade boggs chicken dinner said:
 
In 1997, Glavine - in his age 31 year - signed a four-year extension with a club option for the fifth year.
 
That's a very relevant piece of context.  Interesting.
 

The Best Catch in 100 Years

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SoxVindaloo said:
It has been mentioned upthread briefly, but is their great fear Roy Halladay? At age 34 he put together a ERA + of 163 followed by an ERA + of 90 at age 35 and then 56 at age 36. Is age 36 what they are trying so hard to avoid? Does 5/105 get it done in this scenario? 5/110?
I can certainly see the general trend of pitchers declining as they get into their thirties being a concern for the Red Sox FO, but are you actually suggesting that the specific example of Roy Halladay figures into their calculations as anything but a tiny data point?
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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Is there a premium that should be placed on having left-handed starting pitching, at the front of the rotation?  
 
1) Unless I'm mistaken, all of the minor league talent that the Red Sox have at the starting pitching spot -- at least the guys who are heir apparents to the starting roles -- are right handed.  So, let's assume if Lester leaves that we're looking at something like Lackey, Buchholz, Workman/Doubront, Webster.  We still have a lefty, but the book is sort of still out on him, and he's in the 3 or 4 hole, most likely.  The prospect of acquiring decent starting left-handed pitching seems unlikely.
 
2) The premise:  Left-handed pitching pays dividends that go beyond merely the stats of the particular pitcher.  Put another way, if you had two pitchers with exactly the same numbers, you'd take the lefty over the righty.  This is mostly because the ability to alternative left-handed and right-handed pitching supposedly has a beneficial effect over a series -- especially over a longer series like the playoffs.  This is often repeated.  It could be lore.  "Off-balanceness" could be a myth.  Google searching does not reveal to me any studies that attempt to quantify whether teams perform worse facing a pitcher the day after facing a pitcher who throws with the opposite hand than they do with a same-handed pitcher.
 
3) Let's put to the side any advantage that left-handed pitchers have.  To me, this is so difficult to quantify in the first place.  Left-handers are better at controlling the running game, though Lester not so much.  Left-handers tend to have more movement.  Left-handed batter tends to be better hitters, putting a premium on having lefty pitching.  (Though it's debatable whether this is the result of the platoon advantage lefties have in a league dominated by RHP, or whether positional bias plays a role -- the phenomenon that most of the premium defensive positions are not available to lefties, so they better be good hitters to make it to MLB.)  But, on the other hand, left-handed pitchers are giving away the platoon advantage more often than RHP, since the majority of batters bat right.
 
So, let's call number 3 a wash.  It really doesn't matter, because in the end you can judge a LHP by looking at his numbers.  The question is whether there's an overall rotation advantage to having a guy like Lester, separate from his numbers, that will be lost and is worth paying something for?  Did the Randy Johnson/Curt Schilling one-two punch make them both worth more than the sum of their parts?  I'd note that in 2004, the Red Sox won the world series without, I believe, ever starting a lefty.  If the top of your rotation is Schilling/Pedro, it probably doesn't make much of a difference (or, to take a modern example, I'm sure the Tigers are just fine with Verlander/Scherzer).  But the 2015 Red Sox won't have that kind of punch, and it makes me wonder whether losing the Lester/Lackey tandem at the top of the line up makes Lester worth a bit more than just the loss of Lester's numbers alone for this team at this time.    
 

SoxVindaloo

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The Best Catch in 100 Years said:
I can certainly see the general trend of pitchers declining as they get into their thirties being a concern for the Red Sox FO, but are you actually suggesting that the specific example of Roy Halladay figures into their calculations as anything but a tiny data point?
No not the only example, there is plenty of data to support the Sox's stance. But the most recent Alpha Prime example of a very, very good pitcher losing his stuff in a hurry without a major physical problem around age 35.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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SoxVindaloo said:
No not the only example, there is plenty of data to support the Sox's stance. But the most recent Alpha Prime example of a very, very good pitcher losing his stuff in a hurry without a major physical problem around age 35.
 
Halladay didn't lose his stuff without a major physical problem.  He spent time on the DL in 2012 with shoulder strain and then missed half of 2013 for shoulder surgery.  He also cited a persistent back injury as a reason for retiring.  His body was breaking down, and rather than try to hang on and battle through it, he walked away.
 

koufax37

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HriniakPosterChild said:
 
I have no idea why any player would take anything other than the best offer once he gets to free agency.
 
Assuming you mean "highest" when you say "best",  the answer is quite simple: Because when you have $100M the 100 million and 1st million dollar doesn't buy a lot of happiness at the margin.  And leaving a city and team and setting you like for a less good one which is likely going to be hamstrung by overpaying you anyway (see Rodriguez A. v Texas) will not lead to more happiness over your contract or after your contract.
 
Quite to the contrary, I have no idea why any player would take the highest contract when there is a slightly lower one that would provide him with more net enjoyment over the term of the contract.
 

koufax37

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DennyDoyle'sBoil said:
Is there a premium that should be placed on having left-handed starting pitching, at the front of the rotation?  
 
1) Unless I'm mistaken, all of the minor league talent that the Red Sox have at the starting pitching spot -- at least the guys who are heir apparents to the starting roles -- are right handed.  So, let's assume if Lester leaves that we're looking at something like Lackey, Buchholz, Workman/Doubront, Webster.  We still have a lefty, but the book is sort of still out on him, and he's in the 3 or 4 hole, most likely.  The prospect of acquiring decent starting left-handed pitching seems unlikely.
 
2) The premise:  Left-handed pitching pays dividends that go beyond merely the stats of the particular pitcher.  Put another way, if you had two pitchers with exactly the same numbers, you'd take the lefty over the righty.  This is mostly because the ability to alternative left-handed and right-handed pitching supposedly has a beneficial effect over a series -- especially over a longer series like the playoffs.  This is often repeated.  It could be lore.  "Off-balanceness" could be a myth.  Google searching does not reveal to me any studies that attempt to quantify whether teams perform worse facing a pitcher the day after facing a pitcher who throws with the opposite hand than they do with a same-handed pitcher.
 
3) Let's put to the side any advantage that left-handed pitchers have.  To me, this is so difficult to quantify in the first place.  Left-handers are better at controlling the running game, though Lester not so much.  Left-handers tend to have more movement.  Left-handed batter tends to be better hitters, putting a premium on having lefty pitching.  (Though it's debatable whether this is the result of the platoon advantage lefties have in a league dominated by RHP, or whether positional bias plays a role -- the phenomenon that most of the premium defensive positions are not available to lefties, so they better be good hitters to make it to MLB.)  But, on the other hand, left-handed pitchers are giving away the platoon advantage more often than RHP, since the majority of batters bat right.
 
So, let's call number 3 a wash.  It really doesn't matter, because in the end you can judge a LHP by looking at his numbers.  The question is whether there's an overall rotation advantage to having a guy like Lester, separate from his numbers, that will be lost and is worth paying something for?  Did the Randy Johnson/Curt Schilling one-two punch make them both worth more than the sum of their parts?  I'd note that in 2004, the Red Sox won the world series without, I believe, ever starting a lefty.  If the top of your rotation is Schilling/Pedro, it probably doesn't make much of a difference (or, to take a modern example, I'm sure the Tigers are just fine with Verlander/Scherzer).  But the 2015 Red Sox won't have that kind of punch, and it makes me wonder whether losing the Lester/Lackey tandem at the top of the line up makes Lester worth a bit more than just the loss of Lester's numbers alone for this team at this time.    
 
While like you I can't find any study, as a lefty pitcher for more than a dozen pro seasons, I felt a noticeable advantage when I was following a righty in our rotation compared to when I was following a lefty.  Lefties aren't all the way to knuckleballers, but part of the advantage is the gimmick/novelty/difference, and that is heightened when fewer are faced.
 
Teams don't control (until the playoffs) who opposing lineups have recently faced heading into their series, but having one or two lefty starters and if two having them split up seems to have a useful (although I'm not sure how to quantify) impact, both on the performance of the lefties, and a benefit to a righty who follows. I don't at all view this as significant enough to be a big deciding factor between two specific pitchers of different handedness, and would in each individual case prefer the stronger pitcher of the two.  But I think as multiple roster construction moves are made in sequence, there is a reason to want one or two lefties (a third probably doesn't help much) as opposed to settling in to all five righties.
 

curly2

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DennyDoyle'sBoil said:
Is there a premium that should be placed on having left-handed starting pitching, at the front of the rotation?  
 
1) Unless I'm mistaken, all of the minor league talent that the Red Sox have at the starting pitching spot -- at least the guys who are heir apparents to the starting roles -- are right handed.  So, let's assume if Lester leaves that we're looking at something like Lackey, Buchholz, Workman/Doubront, Webster.  We still have a lefty, but the book is sort of still out on him, and he's in the 3 or 4 hole, most likely.  The prospect of acquiring decent starting left-handed pitching seems unlikely.
 
Henry Owens, ranked by Sox Prospects as the team's top pitching prospect and No. 2 overall, is a lefty, and while he's just 21 he's already at Double-A. Brian Johnson just promoted to Double-A, is also a lefty.
 
Trey Ball is also a lefty, but he's several years away.
 

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koufax37 said:
Quite to the contrary, I have no idea why any player would take the highest contract when there is a slightly lower one that would provide him with more net enjoyment over the term of the contract.
This is why I think the Sox still have a good shot to re-sign him after the season is over. But he first needs to get FA status to see what is out there and to determine if the Sox offer is only slightly lower or dramatically so.
 

chrisfont9

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koufax37 said:
 
While like you I can't find any study, as a lefty pitcher for more than a dozen pro seasons, I felt a noticeable advantage when I was following a righty in our rotation compared to when I was following a lefty.  Lefties aren't all the way to knuckleballers, but part of the advantage is the gimmick/novelty/difference, and that is heightened when fewer are faced.
This, to me, is the significance, combined with the fact that the majority of pitchers are RH. [Last I checked it was something like 70-30.] Handedness isn't an advantage per se, but if there's an advantage in having a healthy number of both RH and LH, and there's a significant shortage of LHers, then quality LH starters acquires a significant value even before looking into the particulars of the pitcher.
 

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EvilEmpire said:
This is why I think the Sox still have a good shot to re-sign him after the season is over. But he first needs to get FA status to see what is out there and to determine if the Sox offer is only slightly lower or dramatically so.
I am skeptical of the Sox's chances. It seems to be very few free agents who have not taken the highest offer. Additionally, I think Lester is comparing himself to pitchers like Scherzer, so his concept of a hometown discount is quite different than the Sox FO.
 

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It's nice to have a mix of R and L pitchers so in the playoffs you can line up the L starter against a certain team or park that benefits Ls.  For instance, having Lester pitch in Yankee Stadium in the playoffs against a Yankee lineup that is usually stacked with lefty power is a plus.  
 

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To anyone who still thinks the Red Sox will re-sign Lester once he hits free agency, explain to me why the Red Sox wouldn't make their best offer now (or, really, this past off-season). If Lester gets to free agency, even if they re-sign him, and even if they aren't the highest bidder (which it seems we all agree they won't be), they are undoubtedly going to have to pay more than they would now (or, really, this past off-season). What's the advantage to waiting? They're not going to save money, they're going to have to bid up a player they could have signed for far less just months before. I'm presuming here, yes, so I guess I could be wrong and there could be no/little market for Lester's services, but we all live in the real world and know that once Lester hits free agency, he's going to get expensive. Unless the Red Sox have a plan to replace Lester's production with an outside ace, which I concede is entirely possible though clearly more difficult and expensive than simply re-signing a guy who wants to be here, I don't understand what the hold up could be other than not wanting to extend Lester at his asking price and/or preferred contract length, all of which leads me to believe that this is it for Lester in Boston after this season. 
 

EvilEmpire

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rundugrun said:
I am skeptical of the Sox's chances. It seems to be very few free agents who have not taken the highest offer. Additionally, I think Lester is comparing himself to pitchers like Scherzer, so his concept of a hometown discount is quite different than the Sox FO.
Well, I don't think it really matters who Lester compares himself to. When he hits free agency his agent is likely going to get offers from multiple teams. Once those offers come in, he'll know exactly how other teams value him compared to the Red Sox. If all those numbers are in the same general ballpark, he'll go where he is most comfortable.
 

gammoseditor

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mattymatty said:
To anyone who still thinks the Red Sox will re-sign Lester once he hits free agency, explain to me why the Red Sox wouldn't make their best offer now (or, really, this past off-season). If Lester gets to free agency, even if they re-sign him, and even if they aren't the highest bidder (which it seems we all agree they won't be), they are undoubtedly going to have to pay more than they would now (or, really, this past off-season). What's the advantage to waiting? They're not going to save money, they're going to have to bid up a player they could have signed for far less just months before. I'm presuming here, yes, so I guess I could be wrong and there could be no/little market for Lester's services, but we all live in the real world and know that once Lester hits free agency, he's going to get expensive. Unless the Red Sox have a plan to replace Lester's production with an outside ace, which I concede is entirely possible though clearly more difficult and expensive than simply re-signing a guy who wants to be here, I don't understand what the hold up could be other than not wanting to extend Lester at his asking price and/or preferred contract length, all of which leads me to believe that this is it for Lester in Boston after this season. 
 
Because in a negotiation if Lester's side doesn't throw a number out you have to start somewhere.  You start low because you have no evidence where his side is coming from.
 

bankshot1

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gammoseditor said:
 
Because in a negotiation if Lester's side doesn't throw a number out you have to start somewhere.  You start low because you have no evidence where his side is coming from.
Or the Sox offer may have been a counter to a higher than expected Lester thrust. For example, if Levinson was hinting at 6/150 (25AAV) Cherington throwing back 4/70 could be seen as creating a path to some hoped for middle ground. (5 years @ 20-223 AAV)
 

HriniakPosterChild

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EvilEmpire said:
Well, I don't think it really matters who Lester compares himself to. When he hits free agency his agent is likely going to get offers from multiple teams. Once those offers come in, he'll know exactly how other teams value him compared to the Red Sox. If all those numbers are in the same general ballpark, he'll go where he is most comfortable.
 
If Lester reaches free agency and can pass a physical, I expect him to get substantially more in years and dollars from NY. I also expect him to get an opt-out in the deal, a full no-trade clause, and a guarantee of beer-flavored ice cream in the clubhouse.
 
I cannot think of a team from NY that won the Series in my lifetime without a lefty in the rotation. In Boston, that's been done.
 

bankshot1

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I cannot think of a team from NY that won the Series in my lifetime without a lefty in the rotation
 
Exactly,from Whitey to Gator to Andy to CC, winning in Y-stadium requires good LHP., which is why the Sox are nuts to let him walk.
 

HriniakPosterChild

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bankshot1 said:
Exactly,from Whitey to Gator to Andy to CC, winning in Y-stadium requires good LHP., which is why the Sox are nuts to let him walk.
 
I don't follow your logic.
 
I say that for NY, a LHP is necessary, but not sufficient. And if NY's need for Lester is greater than Boston's, it does not follow that Boston should try to get into a bidding war with NY for Lester's services. 
 
Boston can win a World Series when NY has a lefty in the rotation. So they don't have to be nuts to let Lester walk.
 
And after that cold bit of logic, I'll get emotional. For me it will suck more to see Lester in pinstripes than anyone since Wade Boggs.
 

bankshot1

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HriniakPosterChild said:
 
 
I don't follow your logic.
 
I say that for NY, a LHP is necessary, but not sufficient. And if NY's need for Lester is greater than Boston's, it does not follow that Boston should try to get into a bidding war with NY for Lester's services. 
 
Boston can win a World Series when NY has a lefty in the rotation. So they don't have to be nuts to let Lester walk.
 
And after that cold bit of logic, I'll get emotional. For me it will suck more to see Lester in pinstripes than anyone since Wade Boggs.
 
Whether we like it or not the Sox compete against the MFY in the ALE. That won't change. Having a LHP who can beat the MFY in the Urinal is a big step to that goal.  Lester knows how to pitch and win in the Urinal. Losing Lester to the MFY's is a real double loss. And the Sox could have avoided a bidding war through a pre-emptive bid.
 

Hee Sox Choi

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What do you suppose the difference in salary between Scherzer and Lester will be?  If Lester wants a shit-ton, then the Sox might be thinking that if they're going to spend a lot, they might as well get Scherzer for a couple mil more per year.  I'd rather have Scherzer if he's 15% more than Lester.
 

glennhoffmania

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mattymatty said:
To anyone who still thinks the Red Sox will re-sign Lester once he hits free agency, explain to me why the Red Sox wouldn't make their best offer now (or, really, this past off-season). If Lester gets to free agency, even if they re-sign him, and even if they aren't the highest bidder (which it seems we all agree they won't be), they are undoubtedly going to have to pay more than they would now (or, really, this past off-season). What's the advantage to waiting? They're not going to save money, they're going to have to bid up a player they could have signed for far less just months before. I'm presuming here, yes, so I guess I could be wrong and there could be no/little market for Lester's services, but we all live in the real world and know that once Lester hits free agency, he's going to get expensive. Unless the Red Sox have a plan to replace Lester's production with an outside ace, which I concede is entirely possible though clearly more difficult and expensive than simply re-signing a guy who wants to be here, I don't understand what the hold up could be other than not wanting to extend Lester at his asking price and/or preferred contract length, all of which leads me to believe that this is it for Lester in Boston after this season. 
 
Also because they'd be taking on the risk of injury this season.  If they sign him to a 5 year extension they really need him to be healthy for 6 more years.  Anyone signing an extension before hitting FA should expect to take a discount.  Whether 4/70 is a reasonable discount is another issue.
 

koufax37

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glennhoffmania said:
 
Also because they'd be taking on the risk of injury this season.  If they sign him to a 5 year extension they really need him to be healthy for 6 more years.  Anyone signing an extension before hitting FA should expect to take a discount.  Whether 4/70 is a reasonable discount is another issue.
 
A very good point.  And not only the injury risk, but the slide back to his downward trend line rather than his apparent turn around (which he seems to be avoiding really well at the moment).
 
That is a big reason why a Fall 2014 offer can be higher than a Spring 2014 offer for the same pitcher without being wasted money.  However the downside is, as everyone fears, that there will be a Cano contract out there that is too far in years/dollars from our best offer for him to turn down.
 
I would have loved to see him signed to 5/110 in Spring Training, and wish our offer was more in that line than the reported 4/70, because the chances of losing him now are higher, and the chances of losing him to our deep pocketed division rivals higher as well.  
 
Then again, after enjoying CC's decline year last year at age 32, and knowing they have to pay him big bucks to be average this year and the next three seasons, maybe accepting the frustrations of Lester's first year or two of success in New York (like Ellsbury) will be made up for by within a few years seeing him being substantially over paid and with too long a contract.
 
And if their offer (or Detroit or Mystery Team) to him isn't so much more than ours to enjoy watching them suffer the Winner's Curse, then he realistically signs with us after all, and like the Napoli extension, we don't lose too much sleep about having paid a few more dollars in the end to get the guy we wanted with an extra year's information on health and career arc before committing.
 

geoduck no quahog

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Some snippets from Olney today:
 

The sands in the hourglass continue to slide away in the time remaining for the Red Sox to sign Jon Lester to a long-term extension. Clayton Kershaw set the very top of the market when he got a $215 million deal in the offseason, but the fairer comparables for Lester might be Cole Hamels, who got $144 million from the Philadelphia Phillies a few months before he was set to hit the market as a free agent, or Matt Cain, who got a five-year, $112.5 million extension in the spring before his free-agent fall. 
 
...If the Red Sox have another offer for Jon Lester, it would behoove them to put it on the table soon.
 
There is a clear middle ground in the Lester talks -- for about five years and $110 million, that place between what Boston offered and what Hamels got -- and if the Red Sox decide they are willing to go there, they should offer now rather than later in the summer. This is because there could be a day when Lester and his representatives decide to wait for free agency, and Lester would probably rank with Max Scherzer as the best available
 
Keep in mind, as well, that the Red Sox have contractual commitments to exactly one player beyond 2015: Dustin Pedroia. Unlike the Angels, Tigers and Yankees, they have a lot of financial flexibility.
 
 
 

joe dokes

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geoduck no quahog said:
 
Some snippets from Olney today:
 

The sands in the hourglass continue to slide away in the time remaining for the Red Sox to sign Jon Lester to a long-term extension. Clayton Kershaw set the very top of the market when he got a $215 million deal in the offseason, but the fairer comparables for Lester might be Cole Hamels, who got $144 million from the Philadelphia Phillies a few months before he was set to hit the market as a free agent, or Matt Cain, who got a five-year, $112.5 million extension in the spring before his free-agent fall.

 
 
 
How old were kershaw, hamels and cain when they signed their deals? (hint: "before he hit the market" is not an age.)
 

Puffy

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Dave Cameron was asked about Lester during his Fangraphs Chat yesterday (5/28) and had this to say 
 
Comment From Guest
What kind of contract will Lester earn? Would you rather sign Lester or Scherzer?
 
Dave Cameron: Lester will get 6 or 7 years, $100 to $120 million. Scherzer will get more, and he should.
 
 
 
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/fangraphs-chat-52814/
 
If that's what it takes, I think a deal with the Sox actually gets done.
 

smastroyin

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Lester for less than $20/yr seems like it would have been done by now, to be honest.  I can't imagine the Sox not jumping at 6/100.  Even his bad years of 11 and 12 he was worth $15 million by FG's own methodology (I'm only using this methodology as it relates to the fact that Cameron gave this quote - it is neither an endorsement nor mockery of said methodology).  I suppose as an older starting pitcher you would expect more of those $15 million years than the $21 he was last year or the $30 or so he's on track for this year (again, FG method) but I'm not sure why Cameron thinks he will be that cheap. 
 

Puffy

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smastroyin said:
Lester for less than $20/yr seems like it would have been done by now, to be honest.  I can't imagine the Sox not jumping at 6/100.  Even his bad years of 11 and 12 he was worth $15 million by FG's own methodology (I'm only using this methodology as it relates to the fact that Cameron gave this quote - it is neither an endorsement nor mockery of said methodology).  I suppose as an older starting pitcher you would expect more of those $15 million years than the $21 he was last year or the $30 or so he's on track for this year (again, FG method) but I'm not sure why Cameron thinks he will be that cheap. 
 
Right, although this is about what I think of when I think about a team-friendly discount. I mean, if not 6/100, then 6/120.
 
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