Extending Lester

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Hoplite

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Snodgrass'Muff said:
 
Cot's has the Sox on the hook for about 75 million next year.  Add in 15 for arbitration and other costs and you're at 90 or so.  That leaves them with about 85 million to spend.  Spending 24 on Lester does not slow down their efforts to fill out the rest of the roster.  In fact, if they don't spend 24 on Lester, chances are they will come in well under the luxury tax limit because the free agent market doesn't have all that much worth spending on in the first place.  Let's break this down quickly starting with the offense, since this is the area most in need of help.
 
Positions they are set at: DH (Ortiz), 1B (Nap), 2B (Pedroia), CF (Bradley and/or Betts), RF (Victorino) and either SS or 3B depending on where Bogaerts ends up.
 
Positions they have assets to plug into already: SS or 3B (Marrero, Middlebrooks, Cecchini), LF (Nava, Betts, Brentz), and Catcher (Vazquez)
 
So we are looking at the front office potentially looking for a free agent catcher, a 3rd baseman and maybe a corner outfielder.
 
Catcher: The best free agent catchers are Russell Martin, Geovany Soto and Kurt Suzuki.  All three could also cost a compensation pick, but none of them should be prohibitively expensive.  If the Sox have a protected pick, they may be willing to give up their second rounder to fill in that gap or maybe they hope a combination of Vazquez and Butler can get them through enough of the season to fast track Swihart.  If they go for a stop gap free agent, it'll probably cost 12-15 million.
 
3rd Base: This market is kind of interesting.  Chase Headley might be worth a make good contract while Cecchini and Marrero spend some time seasoning in The Bucket.  Of course, they could also go big after Hanley Ramirez.  That's probably at least 25 million a year commitment and most certainly a draft pick.
 
Corner OF: Melky Cabrera is an interesting option.  Nelson Cruz stands out as someone who could be productive, but he's old enough that he'd have to be willing to go short on years.  Same with Denofria. After that it gets pretty ugly.  Melky is the most interesting name and he's probably going to cost around 15 a year over 4 or 5 years.  Basically, a JD Drew contract.  His offense is not far off from Drew but he's got the PED suspension hanging from his neck.  He'll cost a draft pick as well.
 
So, even if the team goes against its history and chooses to piss away draft picks to sign one of each, and they go big and sign the best option in each category, you're looking at a total cost of about 55 million a year.  Chances are, they'll draw the line at one sacrificed draft pick if they cross that line at all, so it's more likely they would target the best value and call it a day.  Even if they go with Hanley, that's only 25 million or so a year and a small fraction of what they have free to play with this coming winter.
 
Looking at the starting rotation they have Lackey, Buchholz, Doubront, Workman, Webster, DLR and Ranaudo to build a rotation with if they don't bring Lester back.  Sure, they could have a decent rotation with those guys, but chances are they want a veteran in the rotation they can count on for a while to be the elder statesman while the kids break in.  If it's not Lester they can break the bank for Scherzer.  If they won't pay market rates for Lester, I doubt they do it for Scherzer, though.  They could look for a value deal in someone like Masterson or Gavin Floyd.  Or maybe they take a shot at James Shields.  Masterson or Floyd probably ring in at about 15 a year.  Shields is probably between that an 20 somewhere.
 
Unless you think the team is going to let Lester walk and build their rotation without any free agent help, the team is probably spending between 15 and 20 million a year to do so, and they'll end up with a considerably worse pitcher than Jon Lester for their trouble.  Either way, I don't see Lester's roster spot or his potential AAV getting in the way of spending on any other pieces they might want come December.  I don't think they are likely to go after any of the QO free agents, but they'll have plenty of financial flexibility available if they decide it's worth it.
 
If they're not going to spend a ton on offense anyway, and they will likely need to replace Lester with a veteran, why not spend a little more on a better bet?  I'm just talking about the money they would or wouldn't spend on Lester here.  The team is going to spend most or all of it on a replacement anyway, so why not do it on the kid who has been here his whole career, has expressed a desire to stay, is likely to be better than any of the realistic options to replace him and won't cost them a draft pick to replace?  A top 50 prospect and the difference between 4-7 or 1-3 in the draft doesn't close the gap between Lester and one of Masterson, Floyd or Shields for me.  Especially when you add in the likelihood of having to forfeit a second round pick as part of that move.
 
Thoughtful post, I was thinking through some of this myself. Lester would not slow down the team's ability to improve in 2015 as much as he would probably slow down the team's efforts to improve in the latter half of his deal. And the great thing about the qualifying offer system is that players who are traded midseason don't require them. So it would not be at all necessary to "piss away draft picks" to sign guys like Jason Hammel or Chase Headley when he likely gets traded. There are also players like Russell Martin who are on the older side and play for a team with a history of not offering qualifying offers. He probably wouldn't require a compensatory draft pick. We could also trade for players, such as the spit-balled Peavy+ for Allen Craig trade. In addition, we could use the theoretical top 50 prospect that we get in a trade as the centerpiece in a trade for a pretty good player. And we could fill out the rest of the trade package with people who are already redundant multiple times over like Coyle. We'll also probably have to spend quite a bit to replace our current bullpen with Uehara and Miller becoming free agents. That's a place where contracts could add up fast and we probably wouldn't have to give up draft picks. I don't think we'll have any trouble spending the money and it probably wouldn't be very difficult to avoid giving up a compensatory draft pick.
 

E5 Yaz

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glennhoffmania said:
 
This is truly depressing, and not because it may involve NY.  How much can Lester really be asking for that they'd rather trade him, even if it's within the division, then keep him around for the next 6 years?  If they're not willing to pay market rate for Lester I can't imagine what pitcher they would do it for.  Guys like Felix and Kershaw will never become available in their 20s.
 
Which is exactly why they should judge the market. It would be foolish not to find out. Doesn't mean he'll be traded; just that they can see the value. The Cubs-A's deal was an eye-opener for those teams with a Lester or a Price to dangle
 

Hoplite

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And this could of course just be posturing on the Red Sox part to get Lester to return to the negotiating table. But that's obviously not the sense that I'm getting from what's been reported the last couple of weeks.
 

glennhoffmania

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E5 Yaz said:
 
Which is exactly why they should judge the market. It would be foolish not to find out. Doesn't mean he'll be traded; just that they can see the value. The Cubs-A's deal was an eye-opener for those teams with a Lester or a Price to dangle
 
 
Hoplite said:
And this could of course just be posturing on the Red Sox part to get Lester to return to the negotiating table. But that's obviously not the sense that I'm getting from what's been reported the last couple of weeks.
 
To both of you, sure.  I understand the reasoning and it makes sense.  It still depresses me.
 

bankshot1

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E5 Yaz said:
 
They would have to think someone who can trade for and then sign him would offer more in a return. Did Gammons get into other teams as possibilities?
No, the focus was mostly on Lester and would the Sox resign him. And Gammons went into the "lots of innings/30 YO pitcher risk". Francesa agreed saying he would overpay for a short (3 year) deal. Then Gammons segued into the MFYs and the need for a LH. He didn't like Lee, (not a NY-guy) but thought the MFYs would go after Lester if he was a FA. and then mentioned the Sox were making the market assessment for Lester and had to know by the end of July if they could sign him.
 
Still can't' see these two teams doing a deal of this magnitude.
 

Hoplite

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glennhoffmania said:
ha
 
 
To both of you, sure.  I understand the reasoning and it makes sense.  It still depresses me.
 
On a personal level, it depresses me too. Lester's my second favorite player after Pedroia. I still remember getting excited when he was called up for his first start and for personal reasons I empathize with his battle with cancer. But what depresses me personally is a lot different than what I personally believe is best for this team longterm.
 

Stitch01

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I vehemently disagree in general with the "don't trade within the division" thought regarding trading, but feel 1000% confident Jon Lester wont be traded to the Yankees.
 

TheoShmeo

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It was great fun seeing Sparky Lyle deal for the MFYs for all those years.  Danny Cater was quite a haul, after all.  Yeah, trading Jon Lester to them and seeing him sign an extension in NY would be terrific.
 
What's the next move?  The return of Gump?
 
The good news is that they're probably more likely to sign Little than trade Lester to the NYY.
 

Drek717

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bankshot1 said:
Gammons on Francesa: The Sox are now determining which teams can rent/and then sign Lester. He would not rule out Sox/MFY discussions. 
 
IMO its hard to imagine a true win/win in any deal between those two clubs.
Meh, clearly Gammo throwing red meat to Francesa's audience.  The Yankees could give Boston their entire farm system and every single international FA they've signed this summer and still be well short of what a half dozen other teams could offer for Lester without giving up their top prospect.
 
If talent was water the Yankees farm system would be Mars.  Signs that there was once some there, now very little is left and what is there is trapped.
 

bankshot1

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Drek717 said:
Meh, clearly Gammo throwing red meat to Francesa's audience.  The Yankees could give Boston their entire farm system and every single international FA they've signed this summer and still be well short of what a half dozen other teams could offer for Lester without giving up their top prospect.
 
If talent was water the Yankees farm system would be Mars.  Signs that there was once some there, now very little is left and what is there is trapped.
I agree that Gammons is more dependent than ever upon sensationalism and clicks and tweets to promote his brand. And he sucks up to Francesa to get his weekly exposure there.
 
But the idea that Lester could be shopped is real, even if not shopped to the MFY.
I can't image a rental price sufficient to hand Lester to the MFY. And if I could the MFY wouldn't pay it.
 

alwyn96

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The Red Sox 2015 payroll right now is actually closer to $116M if you take arb and options into account. There's still room to do stuff, but not like, a crazy amount. Also, the way things are going, they may have a protected 1st round pick, so they could sign a QO'd FA and not lose a top pick for their trouble. I gotta think they go hard after a FA if they can get short years, high $$. 
 

alwyn96

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Marbleheader said:
Unfortunately 2015 is not a bumper crop of free agents.
 
There have been worse years. Scherzer/Shields/Lester will make some money. Hanley's going to get paid (probably by the Dodgers). Cruz/Melky/Masterson/Santana/Cuddyer/Morse will be interesting. Lots of mid-tier guys on the market. That does seem to be the end of the pool the Red Sox are swimming in lately. The price on those guys could be significantly affected by the QO, and the Red Sox could find some value there if they have a protected pick. Hard to replace Lester's production, though. 
 

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glennhoffmania said:
Can I assume that the people who want to limit the deal to something like 5/110 think that Lester is going to fall off a cliff in the middle of the contract?  Because even if we use $6m per win for the next 5 years and totally ignore inflation, that's 18.3 wins or 3.7 per year.  Lester has averaged 4.6 wins per year (using FG) since 2008, ignoring 2014 YTD.  Taking into account the facts that inflation exists, you generally pay a premium for top FAs, and if he walks there's a good chance NY gives him 7/175, why are people drawing an imaginary line in the sane at 5/110?  If something like 6/140 could get this done right now and the FO thinks saving 30m over the next 6 years is worth losing him to NY then that seems incredibly penny wise, pound foolish to me.
I don't like using WAR to evaluate pitchers, but if you look at Lester's fWAR for 2011-13, 3.7 wins would have been a solid projection of his 2014 performance. Lester was an elite SP in 2009-2010, but that has very little bearing on his projected future value.

His strong YTD performance, however, is very relevant; much of the discussion in this thread that isn't totally insipid (and there's a lot of that) revolves around the extent to which the FO should revisit their appraisal of Lester based on his strong YTD performance. Personally, I don't think you hand a guy elite SP money for 6 years beginning in his age 31 season when he had only performed at that level in one of the previous four seasons, but that's apparently a minority view here.
 

glennhoffmania

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But Mauf, the numbers being discussed, something around 6/130-140 is not elite money compared to recently signed deals. It's less than Kershaw, Felix, Greinke, Sabathia, Tanaka, and what Scherzer turned down. If the rumor that 6/120 gets him back to the table is true then it seems like a top of the elite SP market wouldn't be necessary.
 

Hoplite

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maufman said:
I don't like using WAR to evaluate pitchers, but if you look at Lester's fWAR for 2011-13, 3.7 wins would have been a solid projection of his 2014 performance. Lester was an elite SP in 2009-2010, but that has very little bearing on his projected future value.

His strong YTD performance, however, is very relevant; much of the discussion in this thread that isn't totally insipid (and there's a lot of that) revolves around the extent to which the FO should revisit their appraisal of Lester based on his strong YTD performance. Personally, I don't think you hand a guy elite SP money for 6 years beginning in his age 31 season when he had only performed at that level in one of the previous four seasons, but that's apparently a minority view here.
 
No, I'm absolutely with you. We're talking about a pitcher who's had an ERA/xFIP/SIERA just a touch below four the last 2.5-3.5 seasons and conventional wisdom would suggest that he will decline ages 31-36. I don't understand the anxiety about trying to replace that kind of production.
 

mauf

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glennhoffmania said:
But Mauf, the numbers being discussed, something around 6/130-140 is not elite money compared to recently signed deals. It's less than Kershaw, Felix, Greinke, Sabathia, Tanaka, and what Scherzer turned down. If the rumor that 6/120 gets him back to the table is true then it seems like a top of the elite SP market wouldn't be necessary.
But if you concede that Lester isn't elite, doesn't $60-75mm guaranteed for Masterson make more sense than $130-150mm guaranteed for something like the 2011-13 version of Lester?
 

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Hoplite said:
 
No, I'm absolutely with you. We're talking about a pitcher who's had an ERA/xFIP/SIERA just a touch below four the last 2.5-3.5 seasons and conventional wisdom would suggest that he will decline ages 31-36. I don't understand the anxiety about trying to replace that kind of production.
Because that's an interpretation of statistics that is so devoid of context as to be highly dishonest. As they say, "Figures don't lie, but liars can figure."
 

snowmanny

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maufman said:
But if you concede that Lester isn't elite, doesn't $60-75mm guaranteed for Masterson make more sense than $130-150mm guaranteed for something like the 2011-13 version of Lester?
$75Million dollars for Masterson is substantially more likely to be a waste of $75Million than $140Million for Lester*. Masterson has
been horrible and hurt, and that's the backup plan?

*What I mean is that Masterson is more likely to
produce zero value than Lester is to produce only $65Million worth of value since, you know, Lester doesn't totally suck this year and isn't on the DL with knee issues.
 

Hoplite

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Plympton91 said:
Because that's an interpretation of statistics that is so devoid of context as to be highly dishonest. As they say, "Figures don't lie, but liars can figure."
 
No, I think it's rather important context since it's more likely that this year is atypical for him than it is that he's going to pitch the best baseball of his career starting at age 30.
 

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Hoplite said:
 
No, I think it's rather important context since it's more likely that this year is atypical for him than it is that he's going to pitch the best baseball of his career starting at age 30.
 
Why? There are plenty of pitchers who have pitched extremely well into their mid thirties and it seems to be happening more often. With the mileage on Lesters arm I can see him easily being effective for another 5-6 seasons.
 

Hoplite

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Eck'sSneakyCheese said:
 
Why? There are plenty of pitchers who have pitched extremely well into their mid thirties and it seems to be happening more often. With the mileage on Lesters arm I can see him easily being effective for another 5-6 seasons.
 
Right, and those pitchers are the exception to the rule. You don't give out $150 million contracts in the hopes that your player is the exception to the rule and comes close to being worth it.
 

snowmanny

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I think this year is likely to be more typical
of his performance going forward than 2012. I guess we will see.
 

snowmanny

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Hoplite said:
 
Right, and those pitchers are the exception to the rule. You don't give out $150 million contracts in
the hopes that your player is the exception to the rule and comes close to being worth it.
Who do you spend the money on? Steve Avery? Matt Clement? John Lackey? Every contract has risk. The best big money pitcher this ownership group has brought in was signed to a four year deal at 37.
 

Hoplite

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snowmanny said:
I think this year is likely to be more typical
of his performance going forward than 2012. I guess we will see.
 
If you ignore his ERA and HR/FB Lester's 2012 and 2013 were pretty similar as far as K/9, BB/9, xFIP and SIERA go. Looking at a pitcher's best half a season in their last 2.5 years of pitching generally doesn't have very accurate predictive power.
 

mauf

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snowmanny said:
Who do you spend the money on? Steve Avery? Matt Clement? John Lackey? Every contract has risk. The best big money pitcher this ownership group has brought in was signed to a four year deal at 37.
Unless you think Jon Lester has a fighting chance of getting into Cooperstown someday without buying a ticket, that's a ridiculous comparison.
 

MakMan44

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Hoplite said:
 
If you ignore his ERA and HR/FB Lester's 2012 and 2013 were pretty similar as far as K/9, BB/9, xFIP and SIERA go. Looking at a pitcher's best half a season in their last 2.5 years of pitching generally doesn't have very accurate predictive power.
But only looking at his worst full seasons has the same downside. 
 

Eck'sSneakyCheese

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Hoplite said:
 
Right, and those pitchers are the exception to the rule. You don't give out $150 million contracts in the hopes that your player is the exception to the rule and comes close to being worth it.
 
Really? Isn't that what's done with every contract? Especially the larger ones?
 

glennhoffmania

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maufman said:
But if you concede that Lester isn't elite, doesn't $60-75mm guaranteed for Masterson make more sense than $130-150mm guaranteed for something like the 2011-13 version of Lester?
 
First off, even if I concede that Masterson would be a better deal doesn't mean they shouldn't extend Lester anyway.  Masterson might not be available, or they can sign both if they want, or they can both be good deals.  But second, I didn't say Lester isn't elite.  I said the contract amount that may get it done is less than other elite pitchers got.  Is Lester a better bet going forward than Hamels, Tanaka, Verlander, Shields, or Scherzer?  All of those guys got more or will get more than the numbers we're talking about for Lester and I'm not sure I wouldn't put Lester at the top, or maybe second, on that list.
 

Hoplite

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MakMan44 said:
But only looking at his worst full seasons has the same downside. 
 
Those weren't his worst full seasons. And even if they were, going back further than 3.5 years generally isn't all that reliable in predicting future pitcher performance.
 

snowmanny

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Hoplite said:
 
If you ignore his ERA and HR/FB Lester's 2012 and 2013 were pretty similar as far as K/9, BB/9,
xFIP and SIERA go. Looking at a pitcher's best half a season in their last 2.5 years of pitching generally doesn't have very accurate predictive power.
Not sure why you are ignoring HR rate or calling a drop in BB/9 from 3.0 to 2.7 "the same" but I am pretty sure that for the totality of 2013 Lester was better than he was over the totality of 2012 and that the drop in ERA from 4.82 to 3.45 was attributable to his pitching better.
 

snowmanny

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maufman said:
Unless you think Jon Lester has a fighting chance of getting into Cooperstown someday without buying a ticket, that's a ridiculous comparison.
Hey, he cost less than your proposed Masterson signing.
 

bankshot1

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What if an "overpay" of Lester (lets use 5-6 years at $25M per) leads to the best result for the team for 4 of the 6 years?
 
If the Sox were to sign Lester to a 6/150 (my estimate of contract at least 2 teams would consider) and Lester pitches as he has this year, for years 1-3, and then like a 2 in year 4, a 2-3 in year 5, and a 3-4 in year 6, (when Aces are likely being paid  ~$ 30-40 million, (he's at $25) would that be a poor signing?
 
Perhaps as he's slipping into 2-3-4 land, RDLR, Owens or a pitcher to be named later emerges as the Ace.
 

mauf

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glennhoffmania said:
 
First off, even if I concede that Masterson would be a better deal doesn't mean they shouldn't extend Lester anyway.  Masterson might not be available, or they can sign both if they want, or they can both be good deals.  But second, I didn't say Lester isn't elite.  I said the contract amount that may get it done is less than other elite pitchers got.  Is Lester a better bet going forward than Hamels, Tanaka, Verlander, Shields, or Scherzer?  All of those guys got more or will get more than the numbers we're talking about for Lester and I'm not sure I wouldn't put Lester at the top, or maybe second, on that list.
If you don't think Tanaka projects to be clearly better than Lester, we aren't going to see eye to eye.

How do the bad contracts given to Verlander and Hamels support giving a similar contract to Lester? If anything, the opposite is true -- both those guys were substantially more valuable when those deals were signed than Lester is now.

Scherzer and Shields are valid comps. I wouldn't touch Scherzer for the money he's likely to command -- didn't everyone agree a few years ago that his throwing motion would inevitably cause him to break down? Shields is a tougher call -- he's not as valuable as Lester, but he's not going to get paid as much either; honestly, I don't know what to think about him.
 

alwyn96

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bankshot1 said:
What if an "overpay" of Lester (lets use 5-6 years at $25M per) leads to the best result for the team for 4 of the 6 years?
 
If the Sox were to sign Lester to a 6/150 (my estimate of contract at least 2 teams would consider) and Lester pitches as he has this year, for years 1-3, and then like a 2 in year 4, a 2-3 in year 5, and a 3-4 in year 6, (when Aces are likely being paid  ~$ 30-40 million, (he's at $25) would that be a poor signing?
 
Perhaps as he's slipping into 2-3-4 land, RDLR, Owens or a pitcher to be named later emerges as the Ace.
 
I think that's something like a best case scenario for that kind of deal for Lester. 
 
I tend to think that if you bet on a pitcher pitching worse from 31-36 than they did from 25-30, you're going to win that bet more often than not. That doesn't mean you shouldn't sign a pitcher older than 30, and sometimes pitchers get even better in that time period, but on average I'd guess the odds are against you. If people think it's easy to figure the guys who were going to find another gear in their 30's (the Schillings, Big Units, Kevin Browns) then they should be working in a front office somewhere. 
 

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Papelbon's Poutine said:
What would be the basis for this belief?
 
Career results with Farrell on the Sox coaching staff vs. career results with Farrell elsewhere?
 

Hoplite

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snowmanny said:
Not sure why you are ignoring HR rate or calling a drop in BB/9 from 3.0 to 2.7 "the same" but I am pretty sure that for the totality of 2013 Lester was better than he was over the totality of 2012 and that the drop in ERA from 4.82 to 3.45 was attributable to his pitching better.
 
The same reason people point out fluctuations in BABIP, it's debatable how much control the pitcher has over them. You can argue over the semantics of whether a .3 BB/9 difference is "similar" or not. But up until this half season, Lester's xFIP and SIERA showed a pretty steady pattern of decline the previous four years in a row. It's possible that he suddenly learned to pitch, and I have seen him make some changes in his pitch selection like using a back door cutter more often. But at the same time, he's also losing velocity so a Verlander/Sabathia-like threshold may not be that far in to the future.
 

Hoplite

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Harry Hooper said:
 
Career results with Farrell on the Sox coaching staff vs. career results with Farrell elsewhere?
 
Lester had a 3.72 xFIP and a 3.80 SIERA without Farrell and he's had a 3.64 xFIP and a 3.64 SIERA since Farrell returned. Those tend to be the most accurate ERA predictors in the kinds of sample sizes that we're talking about. Do you think the suggestion that he's a 3.64 ERA type pitcher right now with Farrell on the staff is fair?
 

MakMan44

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Hoplite said:
 
Those weren't his worst full seasons. And even if they were, going back further than 3.5 years generally isn't all that reliable in predicting future pitcher performance.
You're right, apologies. 
 

lexrageorge

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Keep in mind that in 2012, Lester lacked both a manager and a pitching coach.  And HR's are considered to be much more in a pitcher's control than BABIP, although not necessarily as much as walks or K's.  
 
Perhaps they can teach Lester to hit on his off days.  
 

OttoC

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Wouldn't Lester bring more in a trade if he were already signed to a long-term contract? Wouldn't he bring back more value in a trade than they would get if they gave him a qualifying offer and he walked? It seems to me that it would be in the club's best interests to sign him right now; however, Lester/his agent probably thinks that would lead to a trade right afterwards and he would lose free-agency leverage. And Lester may simply wish not to be traded during the season, preferring to have some months to relocate his family. It's a dilemma in which the player seems to have the edge.
 

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Interesting addition to the Lester chronicles: http://espn.go.com/boston/mlb/story/_/id/11195008/boston-red-sox-continue-jon-lester-contract-talks
 
In essence, it says that the Sox may be putting together a more competitive offer for Lester and quotes Peavy extensively on Lester's value, Peavy's affection for Lester and the "interesting" situation that Lester is in. 
 
This from Peavy caught my eye:
 
"I know they want Jon here," Peavy said of the Red Sox. "I know Jon's wishes are to stay here. That being said, with the way things went this spring, it's hard, the later it goes.
 
I don't recall a player or anyone else on the record saying that the Sox opening offer really queered things, and I assume that's what Peavy means.  It's been widely reported and isn't exactly a new concept.  Still, I had read it in a more indirect manner until now.
 

snowmanny

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A typical full season for Lester is 33 starts.  Here are his last 33 starts:
 
W-L:18-10  IP:226.2  ERA:2.38  WHIP: 1.118  K/9:8.9  BB/9:2.3  
 

Harry Hooper

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Hoplite said:
 
Lester had a 3.72 xFIP and a 3.80 SIERA without Farrell and he's had a 3.64 xFIP and a 3.64 SIERA since Farrell returned. Those tend to be the most accurate ERA predictors in the kinds of sample sizes that we're talking about. Do you think the suggestion that he's a 3.64 ERA type pitcher right now with Farrell on the staff is fair?
 
No, I think fair would be lower. Lester's WHIP went down every one of those years he worked with Farrell, then it went up 2 consecutive years when Farrell left. Since Farrell's return, it's been going back down again.
 
His low WHIP and sub-3.00 ERA since the middle of last season is not a matter of being lucky with BABIP either.
 

glennhoffmania

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Edes:
 
 
 
The Boston Red Sox are continuing "conversations" that could lead to another offer to free-agent-to-be Jon Lester, according to a major league source.
 
Presumably, those conversations are taking place at the ownership level, at which Boston's big-money decisions are always made. The source, however, said he wouldn't make any predictions regarding the outcome.
 
All along, Lester has added a caveat to his preference that the Red Sox not reopen talks until after the season. He said it last month in New York after he outdueled Yankees ace Masahiro Tanaka.
 
"If they make an offer that's right there [at market value]," Lester said then, "yeah, then maybe something can get done."
 
 

glennhoffmania

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maufman said:
If you don't think Tanaka projects to be clearly better than Lester, we aren't going to see eye to eye.

 
 
Just to follow up on this, the latest news that Tanaka is having arm problems is exactly why I think that Lester is a safer gamble.  One guy has never pitched in the majors, the ball is a different size, the schedule is different, etc. and NY spent $175m on him.  Lester has proven year after year that he can be relied upon for 200+ innings.  Tanaka's upside may be higher, but the risk is also much, much higher.  And I'm 99% sure it wouldn't require $175m to sign Lester.
 

Snodgrass'Muff

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rundugrun said:
LL admits to low ball offer per CHB. Cannot link from phone, but is this a surprise? Larry screwed this up...
 
Where did LL admit that he went around Cherington and over Henry's head to make the offer on his own?
 
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