Farrell on the hot seat

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Moviegoer

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Feb 6, 2016
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I wouldn't quarrel with anybody who was arguing for Farrell's dispatch all winter and is continuing to argue for it now. But if you didn't think he should be fired over the winter, 13 games is not enough data to merit jumping to that conclusion now.

Also...."two years and thirteen games"? Really? You win the Cherry-Picking Super Bowl. If it's legit to go back two years, it's legit to go back three.
Let's go back five then. His whole managing career. He won a world series. Just like Bob Brenly did. But unlike Brenly, it's his only season above .500. Brenly won the NL west again the next year and was 3rd the year after that.

Since when is motivational speaker a key part of managing a baseball team through a 162 game schedule? When should he use his Miracle speech, before every home game or just vs. the yankees at home? If only the team were grittier they might win more.

We already saw what can happen with a rah rah manager, I'm not interested in revisiting the Bobby Valentine era.
A .500 record where 1/2 your games have come against a tough TOR team should not be reason for firing the manager. I'd give him to the ASB at least.
Nobody is talking about getting another Bobby Valentine, or a 'rah rah' manager. We all know who would be replacing Farrell if they fire him.
And I'm not advocating firing him now, or even in the next month unless they really go in the toilet. But long term, he's just not the guy.
 

grimshaw

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Ahh...perspective. With all due respect it's not about specific examples this season or any season. It's about results. The last two years and thirteen games the results haven't been underwhelming they have been terrible. So how long do we wait? A month...the All Star break...another year? Just asking of those who counsel patience. Where is your line and why?
And that's not an unreasonable stance to take when taking his whole body of work rather than specific examples this year. To me there really isn't enough evidence yet this season to convince me his decision making has gone backwards or even improved for that matter. If the roster is worse, then he's actually doing better than we're giving him credit for. Half the lineup has a short track record, after all. They have lost one series to a good Orioles team, and have gone 4-3 vs the defending AL champs. It is going to be a very competitive division, so starting out .500 against them isn't the end of the world.

These would be my standards this year.
-If there is a sample size of games that they continuously lose by a run against inferior teams. That could demonstrate that it is a combination of little things in that he is being out-managed often enough. This would represent that the pattern hasn't changed.
-If there are continuous fundamental break downs (like they have in past Farrell seasons when noisiness was higher in these forums, including from myself). IE, forgetting the amount of outs, making stupid base running decisions. Anything that ought to be coachable.
-If he makes a habit of leaving starters in too long when the bullpen alternatives are good.
-If there are clubhouse grumblings or anonymous quotes questioning his decisions
-If John McGraw rises from the dead and is looking for a job. Or if the team is struggling for an extended period of time, and an excellent candidate becomes available.
-All the young players take a step backwards. Though that would be more on Chili.

Personally, I'd give him until mid-June or so or they get to more than 6 games back at the 1/4 mark as a bottom line. Then I think there is enough evidence, that the team is underperforming/sucks enough where this manager cannot improve their position and they bring in someone who can potentially turn the team around, or if not, contribute to a rebuild of sorts over the next two+ years. Then maybe they try Lovullo again and see if Varitek is interested in being a bench coach as a trial by fire.
 
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bankshot1

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Really 13 games?

Firing JF now, for really no good reason, would scream panic.

And its way too early to panic.

If Mookie singles last night they are 7-6.

Fire Mookie.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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If you take all of the bad decisions this year -- even if we're thinking they were actual bad decisions not jus bad results -- what's a serious suggestion of how many wins a replacement level manager would have earned? .10? .25? I mean arguments about in game managing tend to be about increasing possible OPS or WHIP against a few points here or there from losing positions.

I don't know why winning teams win and losing teams lose. I think it's a lot more about roster construction and synergies in the lineup and bullpen and stuff like that than about in game management. There is much more parity in MLB. Lots of teams have good players and plus $100 million payrolls now, and none can afford to field great players at every position and need to deal with weak links, and when I look back at the last few years of champions and the teams they beat it's hard to say why some of them win and some don't. Some seem to catch lightning in a bottle and cobble together pitching that gets the big outs late in high leverage situations. There probably is a manager style that fosters an environment in which this can occur, but it seems like more than just eeking out the marginal win percentage of making the 60/40 pinch hitting decisions correctly.

Winning teams seem to get a few 8-2 wins every week or so, making the 60/40 manager decisions unimportant. The Red Sox aren't doing that at the moment. Maybe the schedule, maybe just finding things out, but it's really hard to believe that finding a guy based on perception that a few more of the 60/40 calls will work out would make a difference.
 

The Gray Eagle

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Since winning the World Series, the Red Sox have gone 155-182, for a .460 winning percentage. Taking out the games Luvollo managed, with Farrell as manager, they have gone 127-162, for a .439 winning percentage. That's a pretty big sample of suck. That is the issue here. This year's 13 games are just a small part of it.

By comparison, Butch Hobson managed teams with little talent for almost 3 years and had a .472 winning percentage and one last place finish. No one thinks Hobson was a good manager. For the last 2+ seasons, Farrell's had worse results than Hobson.

Tito was (somewhat on this forum) loved, but he's not coming back through that door.

Who else has been skipper?
Valentine
Grady
Jimy Williams
Kennedy
Kerrigan
Hobson
Snowplow Joe
McNamera

Farrell looks pretty good in comparison. Careful what you wish for.
Farrell is coming off two straight last place finishes. All those other managers listed combined finished last here a total of 2 times, once by Valentine and once by Hobson. The Red Sox hadn't finished last two straight times since 1930, it's unprecedented in the modern era of Red Sox baseball. None of those managers on your list was allowed to finish last twice. Most avoided the basement altogether.

More importantly, none of them would be hired if Farrell is let go. Luvollo would get the job. He went 28-20 last year with the same team that Farrell went 50-64 with.

The World Series title buys a lot of goodwill, and that goodwill is the only reason Farrell is still here. Because of the great 2013 season, he was allowed to start this season in charge again despite the consecutive horrible seasons, but he needs to be on a short leash and the team can't be allowed to fall out of contention again without changing managers. We're not out of contention yet, so nothing is going to happen yet. But if this team starts digging yet another hole in the standings for the third straight year, then the manager needs to change.

In my opinion, if it even starts to look like we might be heading out of contention (falling more than 5 games out, or another losing stretch that resembles last year's 9-game losing streak, or the 7 out of 8 we dropped in early May against divisional opponents, or the 11 losses in 13 games coming back from the All-Star break last year) then we should make the change.
 

InsideTheParker

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I like Lovullo, and I would like to propose that we do him the honor of spelling his name correctly. I would also like to know how his family pronounces it, since the NESN booth guys say "Lovello."
 

HMan25

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Apr 20, 2016
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Here is the date: May 2nd. May 2nd is an off day before a road trip. We will have just completed a three game home series against the Yankees. If the sox are below or at .500 on this date Farrell will be fired.
 

Harry Hooper

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Since winning the World Series, the Red Sox have gone 155-182, for a .460 winning percentage. Taking out the games Luvollo managed, with Farrell as manager, they have gone 127-162, for a .439 winning percentage. That's a pretty big sample of suck. That is the issue here. This year's 13 games are just a small part of it.

By comparison, Butch Hobson managed teams with little talent for almost 3 years and had a .472 winning percentage and one last place finish. No one thinks Hobson was a good manager. For the last 2+ seasons, Farrell's had worse results than Hobson.



Farrell is coming off two straight last place finishes. All those other managers listed combined finished last here a total of 2 times, once by Valentine and once by Hobson. The Red Sox hadn't finished last two straight times since 1930, it's unprecedented in the modern era of Red Sox baseball. None of those managers on your list was allowed to finish last twice. Most avoided the basement altogether.

More importantly, none of them would be hired if Farrell is let go. Luvollo would get the job. He went 28-20 last year with the same team that Farrell went 50-64 with.

The World Series title buys a lot of goodwill, and that goodwill is the only reason Farrell is still here. Because of the great 2013 season, he was allowed to start this season in charge again despite the consecutive horrible seasons, but he needs to be on a short leash and the team can't be allowed to fall out of contention again without changing managers. We're not out of contention yet, so nothing is going to happen yet. But if this team starts digging yet another hole in the standings for the third straight year, then the manager needs to change.

In my opinion, if it even starts to look like we might be heading out of contention (falling more than 5 games out, or another losing stretch that resembles last year's 9-game losing streak, or the 7 out of 8 we dropped in early May against divisional opponents, or the 11 losses in 13 games coming back from the All-Star break last year) then we should make the change.

On the one hand, it's unfair to harp on the 2 consecutive last-place finishes for Farrell as the FO in both seasons pretty much engineered that result by mid-season dismantling of the teams and conducting open tryouts in the latter months. On the other hand, in both seasons the teams' poor first-half results generated the mid-season re-engineering. As for Lovullo going 28-20 with the same team, that's a bit simplistic. Just to cite 2 examples, one team had extended stretches of Hanley impersonating a LF and Masterson taking a regular turn in the rotation. The other team did not.

Bottom line, absent a Toonces cliff plunge losing streak such as dropping 8 of 9 games, Farrell gets about 6.5 weeks to make his case to stay on in 2016. May 11th?
 

EllisTheRimMan

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It's not the first 13 games it's the last 2 years of suck and the mediocrity (at best) of Farrell's overall managing career. Without the illness DD fires Farrell at the end of the season. It's common in every sport that a new GM wants to hire a new guy as head coach/manager especially if the old guy has come off of 2 last place finishes with one of the highest payrolls in MLB.

I titled the thread on the hot seat and not fire Farrell now for a reason. I prefer sooner rather than later and even if the team is at .500 mid-May I think he should get the axe. Sooner if the team starts to tank before then.

"What's your timeline?" seems to be the most relevant question since it's hard to find any Farrell supporters here. Nobody is saying give him an extension, they're just saying not yet.
 

Bob Montgomerys Helmet Hat

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Without the illness DD fires Farrell at the end of the season.

You state this as fact without having any idea at all if it is true. DD might actually respect Farrell as a Manager. DD might have talked to players and gotten very positive feedback.
Or maybe not.
But let's not pretend that we know how it went down, much less how it would have gone down, in other circumstances.
 

Plympton91

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Those of you in the "Fire Farrell" crowd, would you provide some examples of moves and non-moves that you feel cost the Sox games. Also, when you list these out, please list the likelihood of the hitter replaced or not replaced succeeding in that situation. Same for the pitchers. What you would have done differently etc.
By the spreadsheet standard you're laying out the Red Sox could hire Barry from Burger King to make decisions and it wouldn't matter.

The bottom line is this exact same team, minus the acquisitions of Price and Kimbrel, played very well for the current bench coach for 1/3 of a season, and yet it has played terribly for John Farrell since the end of the 2013 playoff championship round.

Is that a reason to make a change? Maybe Farrell isn't the "leader of men" he's crafted up to be. That's as subjective and context dependent a concept as any.
 

Plympton91

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I wouldn't quarrel with anybody who was arguing for Farrell's dispatch all winter and is continuing to argue for it now. But if you didn't think he should be fired over the winter, 13 games is not enough data to merit jumping to that conclusion now.

Also...."two years and thirteen games"? Really? You win the Cherry-Picking Super Bowl. If it's legit to go back two years, it's legit to go back three.
Why not look at the whole record.

One championship and, 4 second division finishes with teams that were preseason consensus picks to at least compete for a division title. That's 4 strikes. Is this t-ball where everyone gets five whiffs before you go to the next batter?
 

johnnywayback

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I don't think Farrell's a catastrophically-bad in-game manager at all, and I think that with a healthy Carson Smith, this team could very easily be 8-5.

I also think that whether the team is underperforming its talent level due to Farrell's current or general shortcomings as a motivator and "leader of men" is something we can't possibly know without being in the clubhouse, which none of us are.

All that said, by the only test I know how to administer -- the "guy who watches a lot of games" test -- it sure looks to me like the team is pressing. Guys like Mookie and Xander look frustrated and tight. The weird decisions with regards to the composition and use of the bench speak to a disconnect between Farrell and the front office. And, of course, by the test the front office seems to have set up for the season -- the "we put a lot of resources into making the 2016 Red Sox competitive and expect to see those investments bear fruit quickly" test -- it's hard to be optimistic through 1/10 of the season. A team that plays like this throughout the season will not be competitive come September.

So, yes, I think Farrell is indeed on the hot seat. I think that, if the team doesn't turn it around in the next couple of weeks, he may well be let go. And while, again, none of us can claim to have an informed opinion about what's going on in the clubhouse, I think I'll be okay with a change if it happens.
 

threecy

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It's common in every sport that a new GM wants to hire a new guy as head coach/manager especially if the old guy has come off of 2 last place finishes with one of the highest payrolls in MLB.
Yes, because it's Farrell's fault for not getting the most out of Panda, Craig, Hanley, Castillo, Victorino, and Porcello.
 

rembrat

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The bottom line is this exact same team, minus the acquisitions of Price and Kimbrel, played very well for the current bench coach for 1/3 of a season, and yet it has played terribly for John Farrell since the end of the 2013 playoff championship round.
That's simplify it a tad, no? Farrell didn't have a scorching red hot Jackie Bradley or Travis Shaw and Lovullo wasn't saddled with having to field Mike Napoli and Shane Victorino not to mention Allen Craig. Rick Porcello came back throwing better too.

I feel for Farrell because it seems like post 2013 he's been snakebitten and everything has blown up in his face especially things outside of his control like player performance. Every time NESN cameras pick him up I'm honestly surprised he isn't throwing his arms up in disbelief and shaking his head.
 

Plympton91

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That's simplify it a tad, no? Farrell didn't have a scorching red hot Jackie Bradley or Travis Shaw and Lovullo wasn't saddled with having to field Mike Napoli and Shane Victorino not to mention Allen Craig. Rick Porcello came back throwing better too.

I feel for Farrell because it seems like post 2013 he's been snakebitten and everything has blown up in his face especially things outside of his control like player performance. Every time NESN cameras pick him up I'm honestly surprised he isn't throwing his arms up in disbelief and shaking his head.
Betts and Bogaerts also improved after Lovullo replaced Farrell. Maybe this group just works better with Torey.
 

rembrat

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Betts and Bogaerts also improved after Lovullo replaced Farrell. Maybe this group just works better with Torey.
Well you know Torey is still the bench coach, right? And since he's the bench coach he presumably has more time to do whatever magical shit he did last year as the manager.
 

PayrodsFirstClutchHit

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Managers and coaches in all sports live and die by the performance of the players. You can rail about how unfair or unjust that is, but it is a fact of life in the business.

Farrell is in season 3 of his players not performing. Couple that with working for a boss that did not hire him who has a history of pulling the trigger when a team starts slowly and you have a man on the hot seat.

JF needs this team to be a strong contender or he is likely gone before Memorial Day.
 

geoduck no quahog

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These threads.

I'm going to guess that no one on this board fully understands what a big league manager does and how that impacts the game. I certainly don't. Let's list some of the things so that ongoing critiques might have some checkpoints:
  • Input with the GM on roster moves
  • Assembly and management of the coaching staff
  • Design of Spring Training regime
  • Player communications
  • Off-season management of certain players
  • Look-aheads to the upcoming schedule and positioning of players to accommodate that
  • Injury/health assessments
  • Liaising with statistical crew to determine what and what not to factor
  • Personality management
  • Discipline management
  • Establishing a routine that players understand and can prepare for
  • In-game strategies: putting on plays, warming up the bullpen, pinch-hitting, bullpen management, player positioning, etc.
  • Establishment of rotation and adjustments as required
  • Bullpen roles - long term health of bullpen
  • Assessing who needs rest and when
  • Assessing who needs a break and when
  • Pre-deadline player assessments
  • Liaising with the press
  • Taking the blame for every mistake and loss
  • Position on the Maddoning Scale: Level of self-attributed genius
There must be more. One thing not to discount - the roles and impact of the coaching staff. If the manager brings on inappropriate coaches (Nieves?) there is responsibility. The converse is obviously true (Butterfield).

The 2 managers I recall getting the most kudos are Bochy and Showalter. If that's a consensus, what differentiates them from the Girardi's, Gibbons' and Matheny's of the world?
 

Reggie's Racquet

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Someone more adept on this board platform than me might want to offer a poll.
to...When do we draw the line on Farrell?
I've heard...May 2, Memorial Day, the All Star break, a couple of weeks,mid-May, at the end of the season.
It could be date based or performance based (wins, losses or standings)
I think it would be interesting to see if there is a consensus.
 

Savin Hillbilly

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The wrong side of the bridge....
Someone more adept on this board platform than me might want to offer a poll.
to...When do we draw the line on Farrell?
I've heard...May 2, Memorial Day, the All Star break, a couple of weeks,mid-May, at the end of the season.
It could be date based or performance based (wins, losses or standings)
I think it would be interesting to see if there is a consensus.
I suspect the team's response will depend on how things go. If they kind of stumble along at a .500-ish pace like they have so far, they might give him all the way to the ASB, but certainly till Memorial Day. But I think they might act quickly if a prolonged losing streak happens. Right now they're on three in a row. If they get swept by TB and then lose the first couple games of the Houston series, things could happen fast.
 

KillerBs

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I am not a big fan of John Farrell, and would have had no real problem if they pulled the plug on him in the off-season, but once the decision was made to bring him back, I think it is seriously premature to put him on the hot seat based on a 6-7 start.

In the absence of a complete collapse, I think he should get until the ASB at least. I certainly don't want him managing now like it could be his last game. The early season moves already smack a bit of desperation borne out of concern for immediate job security so I would rather not feed that.

The guy did win a WS for us, one of only 2 managers to do so since we moved Ruth. He hasn't committed any obvious firing offenses. Let's follow through on the off season decision and give him a fair shot with the 2016 team and see what happens.
 

geoduck no quahog

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There are some other teams with 7+ losses. I suspect those managers would be on the same deadline calendar:

Gibbons
Cash
Girardi
Molitor
Melvin
Scioscia
Servais
Hinch
Mackanin
Mattingly
Gonzalez
Price
Hurdle
Matheny
Counsell
Hale
Bochy
Green
 

patinorange

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He should have been fired after the second game in San Francisco in 2013, but somehow they overcame that and won the World Series. :)
The World Series has given him a couple of passes on the subsequent under performance. I was distraught they brought him back for this year.
It would have been the perfect time to let him go and see what someone else could do. The fact that they brought him back means they probably give him until
at least June first to see if they are over .500. If not, I think he is gone. I hope the season will still be savable.
 

Bergs

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There are some other teams with 7+ losses. I suspect those managers would be on the same deadline calendar:

Gibbons
Cash
Girardi
Molitor
Melvin
Scioscia
Servais
Hinch
Mackanin
Mattingly
Gonzalez
Price
Hurdle
Matheny
Counsell
Hale
Bochy
Green
I'm pretty sure no one here is advocating getting rid of John Farrell solely based on the current W/L record of the 2016 Boston Red Sox.In fact, I just re-read the entire thread and found no such post. This renders your post - as near as I can tell - completely irrelevant.

Those who would like to see him gone are making that assessment based on the last 2 years+ of Boston Red Sox baseball, and (apologies if I am misstating anyone else's position) would have loved to have him not return in 2016 at all. I personally fall into that camp, as I have seen no evidence his strong-jawed "leader of men" approach has helped anybody, and it sure looks like a very young baseball team isn't having much fun playing for him. Additionally, I have been thoroughly unimpressed with his game management.

I freely admit I don't hang out in the locker room and don't know everything. I also freely admit Farrell may turn this ship around and this team will kick ass all season. All that said, painting those of us who believe he is - and should be - on a short leash as reactionary idiots (as you implied with the quoted post) willfully ignores the context within which the anti-Farrell crowd is operating, and is thus counter-productive to the discussion.
 

johnnywayback

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There are some other teams with 7+ losses. I suspect those managers would be on the same deadline calendar:

Gibbons
Cash
Girardi
Molitor
Melvin
Scioscia
Servais
Hinch
Mackanin
Mattingly
Gonzalez
Price
Hurdle
Matheny
Counsell
Hale
Bochy
Green
Aw, come on. You were dead right about the long list of things we can't know about, but nobody is saying that Farrell should be on the hot seat because the team has lost seven games.
People are saying that:
1. The team has dramatically under-performed for two straight years, raising questions about whether Farrell is the right manager.
2. This off-season, ownership changed the front office philosophy and invested a ton of resources in the 2016 roster, believing that they could contend for a World Series with the addition of a front-line starter and elite closer.
3. The front office and manager both laid out the clear expectation that, befitting that confidence, the team would get off to a good start, and yet they're playing listless, mediocre baseball.
4. Therefore, if the team doesn't show improvement in the relatively short term, it's reasonable to expect that they might consider a change in manager.

I mean, given what they spent on Price and Kimbrel, do you really think the front office would be satisfied with a .500 season? And do you really think they'll wait until we're at .500 in September to try to change the team's trajectory?
 

geoduck no quahog

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Granted, but the current bitching seems to be spawned by a sub-.500 start...on the other hand, maybe this is just a continuation of previous threads and could have been part of them. For example, the resurrected "Manager" thread. This new thread smells a little bit reactionary.


{Plus, Gonzalez is definitely on the hot seat}

edited
 
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tims4wins

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Just saw this tweet on ESPN

Jesse Rogers ESPN Staff Writer

The Cubs streak of starting pitchers lasting 6 innings or more came to an end at 14 games on Wednesday as Kyle Hendricks was pulled in the sixth trailing 4-1. They still have a 5 inning streak going as every starter over the first 15 games this season has made it that far.


I'm not a fan of Farrell. Like, at all. I'd have fired him over the offseason if possible. But it's no coincidence why the Cubs are 11-3 given the above stat. When the starters pitch better, and deeper, it makes it easier on the pen, etc. I have no idea how much of the SP performance is on Farrell. But getting them to pitch better and deeper is the best possible medicine.
 

Mighty Joe Young

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I'm pretty sure no one here is advocating getting rid of John Farrell solely based on the current W/L record of the 2016 Boston Red Sox.In fact, I just re-read the entire thread and found no such post. This renders your post - as near as I can tell - completely irrelevant.

Those who would like to see him gone are making that assessment based on the last 2 years+ of Boston Red Sox baseball, and (apologies if I am misstating anyone else's position) would have loved to have him not return in 2016 at all. I personally fall into that camp, as I have seen no evidence his strong-jawed "leader of men" approach has helped anybody, and it sure looks like a very young baseball team isn't having much fun playing for him. Additionally, I have been thoroughly unimpressed with his game management.

I freely admit I don't hang out in the locker room and don't know everything. I also freely admit Farrell may turn this ship around and this team will kick ass all season. All that said, painting those of us who believe he is - and should be - on a short leash as reactionary idiots (as you implied with the quoted post) willfully ignores the context within which the anti-Farrell crowd is operating, and is thus counter-productive to the discussion.
I completely appreciate that a lot of folks hereabouts didn't want Farrell back. But would this thread exist if the Sox were playing .700 ball? I think not. Therefore it IS reactionary. I haven't seen any moves -or non moves- made by Farrell this year that wouldn't have been made by just about every other manager in baseball.

Sure .. He's overused his trusted relievers .. but that's a function of injuries (Smith) and a lot of close games.

Did you want to see Barnes instead of Koji on Monday?
 

whatittakes

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There is no reason to fire Farrell right now that was not true when pitchers and catchers reported. if they didn't fire him then, people are living in dreamland if they think they'll fire him in the immediate (~2 months) future

If Farrell is fired, it will be because it is June, and the team is too far out of contention to think that it can come back with current leadership, and the idea will be about how to shape the youth in our roster to contend in the future and/or find some way to salvage the remainder of the season and hope for a miracle comeback. And that decision will be made based on the thought that Farrell is not the man to get us there.

Most likely, John Farrell will leave us only after this season, whatever happens. All this nonsense about Farrell on the hotseat seems a lot more like fans and media people living in a happy little fantasy world where all changes are for the better than it does anything a sane organization would do. If trust had really eroded that much, just fire the guy. It's not like the team has very mant 2013 veterans left in the first place, and of those, only Ortiz has any legs to stand on if he wanted to make a fuss, and Ortiz is on the cusp of retirement.

For the record, I am not even saying that firing Farrell is a good move. Fans have a tendency to confuse "Move That Didn't Work" with "Bad Move" and SoSH is hardly an exception. He's no Tito Francona, but there are plenty of managers in this sport that are substantially worse than Farrell. Frankly far more of our fate in Farrell's tenure comes down to poor roster management and sheer bad luck than anything he could actually be blamed for.

This year, barring something really off the wall, is Farrell's to lose. Maybe his last year to lose, but his to lose. If it wasn't, they would have moved on to Lovullo or someone else weeks ago and let that manager set the roster and strategies to open the season.
 
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RedOctober3829

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I'm the first to say that Farrell has made some bonehead moves so far this year. But to say that he should be fired now is ridiculous. It's 13 games into the season let things play out more. If by June 1 this keeps up then maybe you think about a change.
 

Rovin Romine

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These threads.

I'm going to guess that no one on this board fully understands what a big league manager does and how that impacts the game. I certainly don't. Let's list some of the things so that ongoing critiques might have some checkpoints:
  • Input with the GM on roster moves
  • Assembly and management of the coaching staff
  • Design of Spring Training regime
  • Player communications
  • Off-season management of certain players
  • Look-aheads to the upcoming schedule and positioning of players to accommodate that
  • Injury/health assessments
  • Liaising with statistical crew to determine what and what not to factor
  • Personality management
  • Discipline management
  • Establishing a routine that players understand and can prepare for
  • In-game strategies: putting on plays, warming up the bullpen, pinch-hitting, bullpen management, player positioning, etc.
  • Establishment of rotation and adjustments as required
  • Bullpen roles - long term health of bullpen
  • Assessing who needs rest and when
  • Assessing who needs a break and when
  • Pre-deadline player assessments
  • Liaising with the press
  • Taking the blame for every mistake and loss
  • Position on the Maddoning Scale: Level of self-attributed genius
There must be more. One thing not to discount - the roles and impact of the coaching staff. If the manager brings on inappropriate coaches (Nieves?) there is responsibility. The converse is obviously true (Butterfield).

The 2 managers I recall getting the most kudos are Bochy and Showalter. If that's a consensus, what differentiates them from the Girardi's, Gibbons' and Matheny's of the world?
Eh. I think he should be fired, but I've thought that for awhile. The buck does not quite stop with the field manager, but it's close enough.

He's not a terrible manager if one makes a laundry list of job duties - in several aspects, he's very good. Unfortunately, one of the things he's not good at is winning actual games. Farrell's teams in aggregate underperform - the exception being 2013, which was full of head scratching moves that worked out. I tend to think his skillset is best for the Torre Yankees - good with the media, keeps an even keel, deals with players in-house (mostly) and in games routinely plugs in elite players to do their elite player thing.

What he's clearly not good at is managing the Sox as currently constructed (or as they have been in the past few years.) I don't know how much of that came from Cherrington mandating that he play certain players, but my biggest problem with Farrell is that he's very weak in terms of putting the team in a position to win individual games. He's supposed to be one of the best 30 guys on the planet at doing that. And frankly, that's all I care about.

Perhaps some of his skills (minimizing drama) translate into a better working environment, and thus contribute to winning. Except, as the orange guy says - we don't do that anymore. Perhaps he's the best ever at putting together really great spring training regimens. But again - to what end? What's the result?

At this point, I think the only reason not to fire him is if his hands were truly tied by management, or if there's no replacement available. However, we've seen the same old Farrell, and we do have a replacement.

As an anticipatory rebuttal, if anyone is thinking of saying, "But if just two games had swung our way, we'd be at 8-5," well, that's pretty much my point in a nutshell. I understand there are some losses that can't be helped - and there are some meltdowns that a manager is helpless to prevent. Sometimes a manager can make all the right marginal moves, giving his team the best chance to win contested games - and the team will be snakebit and still lose all those games. I don't see Farrell routinely making those moves, and managing his roster accordingly, and that's the basic problem that plays out over the whole season.
 

RedOctober3829

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I completely appreciate that a lot of folks hereabouts didn't want Farrell back. But would this thread exist if the Sox were playing .700 ball? I think not. Therefore it IS reactionary. I haven't seen any moves -or non moves- made by Farrell this year that wouldn't have been made by just about every other manager in baseball.

Sure .. He's overused his trusted relievers .. but that's a function of injuries (Smith) and a lot of close games.

Did you want to see Barnes instead of Koji on Monday?
A lot of what sports fandom is comes from a reactionary point of view. You are correct in saying if the Sox were playing .700 baseball then this thread would not exist. But, to some extent, some of his moves have contributed to the 6-7 start. With the team finishing last 3 of the last 4 years there is a sense of urgency to get off to a good start. Sitting Holt on Sunday and the move to Koji on Monday are two obvious moves that in my mind contributed a lot to those losses. Sure saying that it's only 2 games is great but if they fall just short of contending you can look back on some moves by the team that could have put the team over the top.
 

whatittakes

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But, to some extent, some of his moves have contributed to the 6-7 start.
you don't just get to say that and not cite examples. This is a place where emotion and confirmation bias are more powerful than logic, so I insist on logic.

Give me 3 moves Farrell has made that contributed directly to individual losses.
 

RedOctober3829

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you don't just get to say that and not cite examples. This is a place where emotion and confirmation bias are more powerful than logic, so I insist on logic.

Give me 3 moves Farrell has made that contributed directly to individual losses.
First of all, I didn't say that Farrell's moves were the main factor in a loss. What I will say is that 2 of his moves have greatly decreased their chances of winning that particular game. One is Koji in the 8th on Monday. I've explained myself in other threads about this move. Another is not having Holt in there for Young with a RHP on the mound on Monday. That move was completely illogical given the 2 LHPs the next 2 days.

This is the same manager who left Brandon Workman in to hit in the 9th inning of a tie game in the World Series. To say he doesn't get the benefit of the doubt in his in-games moves is putting it lightly.
 

Al Zarilla

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A lot of people say one of Farrell's strong points is managing the press. I disagree. The stuff he says after games could be generated by a computer. He says these dry, inane things and then looks around. He has no personality. I think a big league manager should have one of those. I can't wait until he's gone.
 

whatittakes

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This is what I mean about confirmation bias. No one can even agree on what specifically he does right and wrong.
 

Moviegoer

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Detail me the moves he makes that make him better than average, let alone better than mediocre.

People need to stop trying to gauge Farrell on specific moments. His job is judged by the overall performance of the team.
 
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Sandy Leon Trotsky

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I'm pretty sure most of the posters here all agree that he's not a very good in-game tactician- especially regarding his bullpen usage. I'm not sure how much that really has an overall affect on the wins and losses- but I'd wager a nut that Joe Maddon would at least already have won two games that Farrell has lost.
 

rembrat

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People questioning his leadership skills must have short memories and completely blacked out on how he handled Miley blowing up on him in the dugout.

Also, 1,663 days since Chicken & Beer scandals.

Give him his due there.
 

Bergs

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I completely appreciate that a lot of folks hereabouts didn't want Farrell back. But would this thread exist if the Sox were playing .700 ball? I think not. Therefore it IS reactionary.
Well, the creation of the thread may be reactionary, but as I said, many of the opinions expressed herein are not (at least not in the "13 games into the season" sense), as they are - in many cases - simply renewed expressions of opinions held for a considerably longer period of time. Is there some confirmation bias at work here? Maybe, but the underlying historical data going back 2 years are in line with that which is being confirmed. This isn't coming out of left field.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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I think it's a stupid discussion to be having at this stage of the season
But if they lose tonight, he's gotta go. Amirite?

The fire JF movement that comes after a 3-game winning streak is the one that I'll maybe take seriously.

My view on thing thing is relatively simple. There's a weird alchemy that goes into a team winning a championship, and it's very hard to put one's finger on. It doesn't seem like there are going to be dominant teams anymore. Parity is coming to MLB -- not like the NFL, but when the Arizona Diamondback can sell 20,000 tickets and still get Zach Grienke by throwing absurd amounts of money at him, you know that gone are the days when teams can field a great team at every position. Winning in MLB is going to take a combination of luck, scouting, finding value in the free agent market, having young cost-controlled players overperform while more vets than not exceed the win totals their salaries would dictate.

What's the manager's role in all this? I'm not sure. But here's something I do know: Farrell has done it once. He guided a team to a championship that probably was not as talented as other teams in the tournament, and it managed to line up perfectly. Maybe one believes that this was dumb luck. Maybe one can contend they won in spite of Farrell not because of him. But if that's your view, then you're already starting from the premise that the manager is not that important from the beginning, so what good is firing him anyway?

If there were a guy waiting in the wings that seemed like an obvious choice, then maybe I'd start to listen. Lovullo is a crap shoot, and I'd prefer to stick with the guy who has demonstrated an ability to win a championship with Jonny Gomes, Will Middlebrooks, David Ross, Mike Carp, et al. If we come in last at the end of the year, the discussion has itself, but I still have high hopes for this team, if our pitchers can figure out how to get outs and get a little deeper in games, and I think the harm of changing managers now would far exceed any benefit. And I'll continue to feel that way until the team is essentially eliminated from post-season contention. I have no doubt that if this team plays to its potential and players get hot at the same time, it's the kind of team that can rip off 8 wins in a row, and unless we get to a position where that's not good enough, we dance with the gal who brung us.

Edit: Greinke not Grienke.
 

grimshaw

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I've already stated my case that it's too early to do anything, but wanted to add this:

A little bit of fun with Pythagorean standings. I realize it's luck based,but some of that has to be on the manager as well.
During Tito's run the Red Sox won 6 more games than expected.
Over Farrell's run the Red Sox have lost 12 more games than expected.

Since 2012 the bottom 5 teams in expected wins have been the Rockies (-19), the Astros (-18) even after last year . . ., Oakland (-18), Toronto (-15), and Boston.
It has not helped that the Yanks (+12), and O's (+11) have had it good over that time period. Buck's team beat their expected wins by 11 in 2012 which is the highest by any team over that span.

That +11 and +12 to Boston's -12 is the single biggest divisional gulf in baseball besides the Jays and A's.
Stealing more divisional games going forward is a must for Farrell to keep his job.
 

EllisTheRimMan

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Team is getting close to needing a shakeup. Can't fire the team, but can fire the at best mediocre manager. We've had 2+ years of suck. How long before you do something to shake things up?

The fish rots at the head so Henry and Co. need to look in the mirror too. I actually don't dislike Farrell. He's just meh. He should have been let go or bumped upstairs in the offseason, but that wouldn't have accomplished what I think firing him early this year will. Send a message to the players, especially the young ones. They have a good team on paper and its Papi's last year for Christ's sake. Again, for all the guys not setting a deadline or calling for an extension, just pointing out obvious facts, what's your breaking point? Do you even have one.

Also I don't think "reactionary" means what many of you think it does. In fact, quite the opposite.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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Team is getting close to needing a shakeup. Can't fire the team, but can fire the at best mediocre manager. We've had 2+ years of suck. How long before you do something to shake things up?

The fish rots at the head so Henry and Co. need to look in the mirror too. I actually don't dislike Farrell. He's just meh. He should have been let go or bumped upstairs in the offseason, but that wouldn't have accomplished what I think firing him early this year will. Send a message to the players, especially the young ones. They have a good team on paper and its Papi's last year for Christ's sake. Again, for all the guys not setting a deadline or calling for an extension, just pointing out obvious facts, what's your breaking point? Do you even have one.

Also I don't think "reactionary" means what many of you think it does. In fact, quite the opposite.
I think this gets close to the fundamental disagreement going on here. I don't believe in change for change's sake. That's an often repeated sentiment here, but is there really anything to support the notion that in MLB you can make a team better by "shaking things up"? It seems like one of those baloney truisms that people just say because it maybe sounds right or because they are frustrated. If there isn't someone in the wings that is better in ways one can articulate, change for change's sake seems like just as much of a crap shoot as hoping the guy who has the job turns it around. When that guy has won a world series recently too, the calculation that some unknown guy is going to be better solely because he's different doesn't strike me as realistic, except possibly in the very very short term.

Same with the notion of the fish rotting from the head. That's a real thing? I mean, that just sounds like some words that people say when they are frustrated and don't know what else to do. In reality, by the way, fish do not rot from the head down, they rot from the guts. There are probably lots of ways for a fish to rot, and though I'm not an inside baseball guy if you forced me to guess which analogy actually is more applicable to sports teams, I'd guess it's that teams tend to rot from the guts out more often than from the head.
 

Rovin Romine

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I think this gets close to the fundamental disagreement going on here. I don't believe in change for change's sake. That's an often repeated sentiment here, but is there really anything to support the notion that in MLB you can make a team better by "shaking things up"? It seems like one of those baloney truisms that people just say because it maybe sounds right or because they are frustrated. If there isn't someone in the wings that is better in ways one can articulate, change for change's sake seems like just as much of a crap shoot as hoping the guy who has the job turns it around. When that guy has won a world series recently too, the calculation that some unknown guy is going to be better solely because he's different doesn't strike me as realistic, except possibly in the very very short term.

Same with the notion of the fish rotting from the head. That's a real thing? I mean, that just sounds like some words that people say when they are frustrated and don't know what else to do. In reality, by the way, fish do not rot from the head down, they rot from the guts. There are probably lots of ways for a fish to rot, and though I'm not an inside baseball guy if you forced me to guess which analogy actually is more applicable to sports teams, I'd guess it's that teams tend to rot from the guts out more often than from the head.
So what's the argument, he's a known evil? And we just have to put up with his tactical ineptitude? The guy's had 5 seasons to learn to get better as an in-game manager.

People questioning his leadership skills must have short memories and completely blacked out on how he handled Miley blowing up on him in the dugout.

Also, 1,663 days since Chicken & Beer scandals.

Give him his due there.
Yeah, Farrell did a great job (as a former pitching coach) getting through to MIley. He really took that step forward for us.

And I guess Farrell also brokered the Punto Trade.

I didn't know he was so versatile.

(Less tongue in cheek, I don't know anyone who is saying he has no managerial skills whatsoever, but there's zero evidence that Farrell's "leadership" is responsible for anything other than the dismal performance of 4 of his 5 teams.)
 
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