Felger and Mazz - Creating False Naratives one day at a time

RedOctober3829

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Opening Statement of today's show: The owners are comfortable with the last place finishes 2 of the last few years.
 
They felt so comfortable that they went out and spent over $300 million to upgrade the team.  Idiots.
 

Erik Hanson's Hook

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Forget all the meta-criticism.
 
Mazz's voice is starting to straight-up hurt my ears and gross me out. Someone please pass him something he can use to wipe his mouth. I have this image of the Rancor monster from Return of the Jedi, with drool dripping down his chin and spit flying everywhere.
 

 
 
 

Darnell's Son

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RedOctober3829 said:
"Knowing what we know now in 2 months of having Rusney Castillo, the signing doesn't look good.--Mike
"Did they really need him?"--Mazz
2 months of a seven year deal...jesus christ.
 

joe dokes

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RedOctober3829 said:
"Knowing what we know now in 2 months of having Rusney Castillo, the signing doesn't look good.--Mike
"Did they really need him?"--Mazz
 
 
All of the so-called problems with these shows could be solved if they each had a guy who just asked the host "why's that?" every 15 minutes or so.
 

John Marzano Olympic Hero

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The emailer who gave the list of the problems with the Red Sox lineup began with: "Mookie Betts, he was never a high-ranked prospect."
 
And of course there's Maz with his "Hanley Ramirez is a dog, Mike. A D-O-G." Want to give him a few games in Boston, chief?
 

ForKeeps

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The Castillo thing is incredible. It's not even about the fact that he essentially hasn't played yet, which is bad enough. But they're criticizing the Red Sox based on a completely false notion (that Rusney will start the year in AAA) that's been 100% fabricated by the media (F&M included, I'm guessing) in order to make spring training interesting.  And then when Castillo starts the year in Boston and is actually getting significant playing time we'll just pretend like this discussion never happened. It's embarrassing, but it's right out of Felger's playbook and it's made him a rich man, so more power to him I guess.
 

Manzivino

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They were talking about this yesterday based on Castillo playing in the BC game and not the Northeastern game with "the projected starting lineup". At least that was the two sentences I heard before I changed the channel to prevent an aneurysm.
 

PeaceSignMoose

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southshoresoxfan said:
Its not just Felger ripping Castillo. Zolaks all over him too. What did this guy do to piss off 98.5?
 
He is on the Red Sox.  The whole station has been crapping all over the team since it came into existence.
 

joe dokes

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southshoresoxfan said:
Its not just Felger ripping Castillo. Zolaks all over him too. What did this guy do to piss off 98.5?
 
Zolak's just pissed because Castillo's English is better than his own.
 

NDame616

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A guy on my FB was going on and on about how Victorino and Castillo should be the centerpiece in a Hamels deal.....because he heard it on F&M.....

You know, because trading Castillo helps with our "too many OFs problem "
 

taoofoj

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This thread should be renamed to Thread of Morbid Curiosity.  I stopped listening altogether after the Pedro HOF debacle yet I still check this thread a couple times a week to see if and how they still are still actively sucking.  And apparently they are.  I'm enjoying my Dale & Holley milquetoast.
 
It's a shame about Felger because he can be genuinely entertaining when he's not being a dildo.  I will enjoy his comeuppance.  It happened to Ordway and sooner or later it will happen to Felger.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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taoofoj said:
This thread should be renamed to Thread of Morbid Curiosity.  I stopped listening altogether after the Pedro HOF debacle yet I still check this thread a couple times a week to see if and how they still are still actively sucking.  And apparently they are.  I'm enjoying my Dale & Holley milquetoast.
 
It's a shame about Felger because he can be genuinely entertaining when he's not being a dildo.  I will enjoy his comeuppance.  It happened to Ordway and sooner or later it will happen to Felger.
 
As others have said, Felger's not the problem. He needs a competent foil, though, for those times he takes his stupid pills or deliberately trolls. Someone to call him on his bullshit, which would lead to far better discussion and fewer *click* moments.
 
Mazz is not that foil. Mazz is the worst possible companion for him because he just feeds Felger's worst tendencies. Find someone to call Felger out once in a while and provoke "why do you think so?" discussion, and the show would be infinitely better.
 

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"The owners have gotten the fans to believe that the cap is real.  It's an extremely powerful PR tool.  Their real cap is based off of their profit margin."
 

Corsi

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They were mocking Vince for taking the high road and writing the letter the way he did.  
 
Couldn't take it anymore.  I think I'm done, save for the morbid curiosity. 
 

joe dokes

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Corsi said:
"The owners have gotten the fans to believe that the cap is real.  It's an extremely powerful PR tool.  Their real cap is based off of their profit margin."
 
 
he's right....but only in the sense that the legitimate ways to "get around the cap" (bonuses; long-term deals) also mean having the dead and disabled on your fictional payroll and crippling the team well into the 23rd century. So you can increase your chances of winning for 2 or 3 years ("lets keep Wilfork and McCourty And Revis and Vereen) at the cost of suckage or mediocrity for the next 10. 
 
Which is the "better" course is not  a bad debate to have. For me, the randomness of key injuries makes loading up by blowing the cap for a year or two and paying for it for 10 years a far less effective method than it appears on paper. If you load up, and suffer 2 key injuries, you are reallly screwed for a long time.
 

Harry Hooper

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Classic Felger: he will pound the desk on a point, ultimately get refuted {e.g., Jets ending up in cap jail.}, do a strategic concession/retreat for a period of time, and then after a suitable pause go back to spouting his original point.
 

lostjumper

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Corsi said:
They were mocking Vince for taking the high road and writing the letter the way he did.  
 
Couldn't take it anymore.  I think I'm done, save for the morbid curiosity. 
I don't listen very often, but I did last night for about 10 minutes on the way home from work. Felger was pontificating that the Pat's won't do what it takes to sign Revis because they don't want to win.
 
 
It's been 4 weeks since they won the Super Bowl... Felger is putting Massarotti like levels of energy into his trolling at this point.
 

HomeBrew1901

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lostjumper said:
I don't listen very often, but I did last night for about 10 minutes on the way home from work. Felger was pontificating that the Pat's won't do what it takes to sign Revis because they don't want to win.
 
 
It's been 4 weeks since they won the Super Bowl... Felger is putting Massarotti like levels of energy into his trolling at this point.
Yeah this goes against everything he's been saying for weeks.
 

ForKeeps

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Has anyone ever asked Felger how many Super Bowls he thinks they'd have if they ran the team the way he wants them to run it? Seven? Eight?
 

Buffalo Head

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lostjumper said:
I don't listen very often, but I did last night for about 10 minutes on the way home from work. Felger was pontificating that the Pat's won't do what it takes to sign Revis because they don't want to win.
 
 
It's been 4 weeks since they won the Super Bowl... Felger is putting Massarotti like levels of energy into his trolling at this point.
Are you sure you heard it right? I caught a segment like that on the same day and it was a caller said the team won't sign him because they don't want to win and they shot it down. Felger did raise the question of whether signing him means their putting GFIN ahead of longer-term success, and the decision would give insight on which one Kraft, et al values more right now.
 

RedOctober3829

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Over the last couple of weeks, Felger goes through all of the fallout that would happen if the Pats did not sign Revis.  But, then he always finishes his thought by saying he feels they will sign Revis and that he won't get them in trouble for something they haven't done yet.
 

joe dokes

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Felger did raise the question of whether signing him means their putting GFIN ahead of longer-term success, and the decision would give insight on which one Kraft, et al values more right now.
 
 
People trying to gain "insight" into Kraft by what he does this week or next haven't been paying attention. Or, in the case of talk radio, are preying upon those who don't pay attention.
 
It should be pretty clear by now that the Patriots are trying - and have largely succeeded where *no one* else has - in simultaneously keeping the longer-term success in focus while GFIN.  Unless "GFIN" means "no longer caring about the salary cap implications that might cause us to have to cut all of our good players one year and suck for the following five." If that's what it means, then Kraft *never* GsFIN.
 
So if the Patriots dont GFIN; they GFI every year. Doing that means when they win, they do so with a very small margin for error -- either injury-wise (Gronk, twice, might have been the difference) or score-wise (they could be 6-0 or 0-6 in SB's; the Balt missed FG, tuck game, etc.). But Seattle's Lombadi isn't any bigger because they beat Denver by 40; and we'll see what happens when they have to pay Wilson.
 
Individual moves sometimes don't work out.  But to be critical of the methods of a regime that has made the AFC CG four years in a row and NINE times in the last 14 seasons makes the critic look stupid.
 
Such nuance, however, makes boring talk radio.
 

HomeBrew1901

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joe dokes said:
 
People trying to gain "insight" into Kraft by what he does this week or next haven't been paying attention. Or, in the case of talk radio, are preying upon those who don't pay attention.
 
It should be pretty clear by now that the Patriots are trying - and have largely succeeded where *no one* else has - in simultaneously keeping the longer-term success in focus while GFIN.  Unless "GFIN" means "no longer caring about the salary cap implications that might cause us to have to cut all of our good players one year and suck for the following five." If that's what it means, then Kraft *never* GsFIN.
 
So if the Patriots dont GFIN; they GFI every year. Doing that means when they win, they do so with a very small margin for error -- either injury-wise (Gronk, twice, might have been the difference) or score-wise (they could be 6-0 or 0-6 in SB's; the Balt missed FG, tuck game, etc.). But Seattle's Lombadi isn't any bigger because they beat Denver by 40; and we'll see what happens when they have to pay Wilson.
 
Individual moves sometimes don't work out.  But to be critical of the methods of a regime that has made the AFC CG four years in a row and NINE times in the last 14 seasons makes the critic look stupid.
 
Such nuance, however, makes boring talk radio.
What Felger has actually been saying though (and we may agree I can't really tell what you are trying to say here) is that the Patriots never do what people expect them to do so it's impossible to predict how they are going to react.  Right now the mantra nationally has been that there is no way the Patriots pay Revis the kind of money he should command which is why Felger is optimistic that the do re sign him.
 
Do they have to discuss the ramifications to the defense if Revis doesn't sign, yes otherwise it would make for sucky radio, but overall they have been pretty positive about the moves and potential moves they have been making.
 
Making fun of Wilfork's letter was a little much and unnecessary but it was slightly humorous to me.
 
The "Cap is crap" is largely true, is there a cap jail, eventually yes.  Can every team sign ever player to high contracts, no.  But the cap is easily manipulated so that if a team really really really wants a player they can make it work in the short term.  Dokes hit it on the head above with the credit card analogy.
 

joe dokes

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HomeBrew1901 said:
What Felger has actually been saying though (and we may agree I can't really tell what you are trying to say here) is that the Patriots never do what people expect them to do so it's impossible to predict how they are going to react.  Right now the mantra nationally has been that there is no way the Patriots pay Revis the kind of money he should command which is why Felger is optimistic that the do re sign him.
 
Do they have to discuss the ramifications to the defense if Revis doesn't sign, yes otherwise it would make for sucky radio, but overall they have been pretty positive about the moves and potential moves they have been making.
 
 
 
I dont think its *that* hard to predict what they'll do. But there's always the missing variable of "we dont know what they think the player is worth." Which is the corollary of "The Patriots think that every player has a finite value -- in terms of salary and cap hit -- that they will not exceed."
 
Dokes hit it on the head above with the credit card analogy
 
Not my analogy, but I'll take credit for it.
 

Ralphwiggum

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joe dokes said:
 
I dont think its *that* hard to predict what they'll do. But there's always the missing variable of "we dont know what they think the player is worth." Which is the corollary of "The Patriots think that every player has a finite value -- in terms of salary and cap hit -- that they will not exceed."
 
 
And this is the crux of the issue.  Do you believe the Patriots obsess over "value" because they believe that is the best way to construct a roster top to bottom, fielding a team that competes for a title for the better part of a decade and a half while simultaneously avoiding cap issues?  Or do you believe, as they do, that the obsession over "value" has to do with lining Bob Kraft's pockets?
 
You can absolutely criticize individual moves that the team makes (or doesn't make).  You can argue that Revis is indispensable even if he demands $20 million a year, or that they made a mistake in franchising Ghost or even that they should just pick up Revis' option.  But you can't argue that their overall roster building philosophy hasn't proven to be superior to any other team out there over the long haul.  The "cap is crap" stuff is simply a mechanism they can use to lazily shit on the team for failing to sign anyone at any price, instead of digging into the details to criticize (or God forbid defend) the move on its merits.
 

HomeBrew1901

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Ralphwiggum said:
 
And this is the crux of the issue.  Do you believe the Patriots obsess over "value" because they believe that is the best way to construct a roster top to bottom, fielding a team that competes for a title for the better part of a decade and a half while simultaneously avoiding cap issues?  Or do you believe, as they do, that the obsession over "value" has to do with lining Bob Kraft's pockets?
 
I don't think it's mutually exclusive nor can you blame them for running the team this way.  Kraft isn't lining his pockets if he's running the team like Woody Johnson.
 

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RedOctober3829 said:
This caller on F&M is great.  Jets are 2-3 moves away from overtaking the Patriots in the AFC East.
 
So are those 2-3 moves trading with the Patriots for Brady, Gronk, and Belichick?
 

joe dokes

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RedOctober3829 said:
This caller on F&M is great.  Jets are 2-3 moves away from overtaking the Patriots in the AFC East.
 
 
The first move is for the Jets to trade an Ebola-infected player to the Patriots.
 

Byrdbrain

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He actually said the AFC East is 2 or 3 moves from no longer being a cake walk for the Pats:
-Revis to Jets
-Suh to Phins
-Fitzpatrick(yes really) to the Jets
 
It was a burning hot sportz take.
 

Ralphwiggum

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HomeBrew1901 said:
I don't think it's mutually exclusive nor can you blame them for running the team this way.  Kraft isn't lining his pockets if he's running the team like Woody Johnson.
 
First off I don't think there is any evidence that the Pats have been cheap for the sake of being cheap under Kraft.  But even assuming that is true for the sake of argument, why should I or anyone else care?  It obviously isn't impacting their ability to field a winning team, and not just a winning team but a team that has won on an unprecedented basis during the salary cap era.  So if Kraft is getting a little extra rich during that run I am having trouble understanding why that is a problem for Felger.
 
Second, in order to believe that is true you have to believe that Belichick is not only OK with working for an owner who choses to cheap out rather than try to win, but as the guy who has final say on player moves that he is orchestrating it.  So you can believe that Belichick trades Mankins or refuses to re-sign Welker to line Bob Kraft's pockets.  Or maybe they make these unpopular player moves because that is the way they think they can continuously field a championship roster without getting into cap hell.  Sure they aren't mutually exclusive, but one explanation makes zero sense and the other makes perfect sense.
 
Lastly I don't get the Woody Johnson point.  The Jets had a shitload of cap room last year that they did not use and they sucked.  The Pats pretty much spend to the cap every year and win every year.  Which guy is lining his pockets again?
 

TheRooster

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One of the knuckleheads (probably Maz) said something like, "the other AFC East teams already have superior offensive playmakers..."  While guys like Watkins are interesting, would Brady really swap Gronk, Edleman, LaFell and Vareen for someone's top 4?  I was doubly glad for a short commute today.
 

HomeBrew1901

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Ralphwiggum said:
First off I don't think there is any evidence that the Pats have been cheap for the sake of being cheap under Kraft.  But even assuming that is true for the sake of argument, why should I or anyone else care?  It obviously isn't impacting their ability to field a winning team, and not just a winning team but a team that has won on an unprecedented basis during the salary cap era.  So if Kraft is getting a little extra rich during that run I am having trouble understanding why that is a problem for Felger.
 
Second, in order to believe that is true you have to believe that Belichick is not only OK with working for an owner who choses to cheap out rather than try to win, but as the guy who has final say on player moves that he is orchestrating it.  So you can believe that Belichick trades Mankins or refuses to re-sign Welker to line Bob Kraft's pockets.  Or maybe they make these unpopular player moves because that is the way they think they can continuously field a championship roster without getting into cap hell.  Sure they aren't mutually exclusive, but one explanation makes zero sense and the other makes perfect sense.
 
Lastly I don't get the Woody Johnson point.  The Jets had a shitload of cap room last year that they did not use and they sucked.  The Pats pretty much spend to the cap every year and win every year.  Which guy is lining his pockets again?
Relax super fan no one called Kraft cheap. Just that Kraft can line his pockets and still run a successful team by placing a value on players and not over paying.

If you've been listening you've also heard Felger and Mazz say that they don't make many bad mistakes. Not every move pans out but they don't make many blunders.
 

MuppetAsteriskTalk

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HomeBrew1901 said:
Relax super fan no one called Kraft cheap. Just that Kraft can line his pockets and still run a successful team by placing a value on players and not over paying.

If you've been listening you've also heard Felger and Mazz say that they don't make many bad mistakes. Not every move pans out but they don't make many blunders.
 
How is he "lining his pockets"? They spend pretty close to the cap every single year. They do try to roll a small amount (usually between 4 to 10 million) because it gives them some in-season flexibility, and I believe they also use it to pay some of the incentives that are earned during the year that end up hitting the next seasons cap.
 
If you step back and take like a 10 year snapshot of their actual total cash spending versus the total cap during that time period, my guess is they have spent > 95% of what they're allowed to spend.
 
I haven't listened to Felger & Mazz recently, but I've heard them call Kraft cheap many times over the past several years. 
 

PC Drunken Friar

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MuppetAsteriskTalk said:
 
How is he "lining his pockets"? They spend pretty close to the cap every single year. They do try to roll a small amount (usually between 4 to 10 million) because it gives them some in-season flexibility, and I believe they also use it to pay some of the incentives that are earned during the year that end up hitting the next seasons cap.
 
If you step back and take like a 10 year snapshot of their actual total cash spending versus the total cap during that time period, my guess is they have spent > 95% of what they're allowed to spend.
 
I haven't listened to Felger & Mazz recently, but I've heard them call Kraft cheap many times over the past several years. 
There was a report out recently and the Patriots were something like 7th from the bottom in actual cash spending the last ten years or something.
 

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PC Drunken Friar said:
There was a report out recently and the Patriots were something like 7th from the bottom in actual cash spending the last ten years or something.
 
If Kraft was on with Felger and was confronted with the "being cheap" argument, his best response would be a combination of saying that its hard to be more successful than the Patriots have been, no matter how much more $$ we spend, and "Mike, alot of people say that you and Mazz are ignorant, trolling nitwits to whom facts and accuracy are strangers, but you also have the highest ratings, so why should you change?"
 

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MuppetAsteriskTalk said:
 
How is he "lining his pockets"? They spend pretty close to the cap every single year. They do try to roll a small amount (usually between 4 to 10 million) because it gives them some in-season flexibility, and I believe they also use it to pay some of the incentives that are earned during the year that end up hitting the next seasons cap.
 
 
 
This point needs to be emphasized. In general the NFL doesn't do much in the way of in-season trades, but in recent years the Pats have been notable for such moves {e.g., Talib, Ayers} that have had a real impact on propelling the team deeper into the playoffs.
 

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Not to mention the key in-season additions of LeGarrette Blount and Jonathan Casillas.  Both guys, along with Ayers, were huge contributors in the title run.
 
Felger and Mazz is hot garbage.