Felger and Mazz - Creating False Naratives one day at a time

[John Marzano Olympic Hero]

Mazz's argument is McCarver-esque - he thinks OPS is the end-all-be-all of statistical measures, and as such, prefers home run hitters to stolen bases. He then poorly phrases this argument so that it becomes a debate about whether stolen bases are valuable. In the binary world of sports talk radio, stolen bases can't be "useful" - they are good or bad. And compared to home runs, they are bad, because a stolen base doesn't contribute to OPS.

It's a mind-numbingly stupid argument and would never show up in a written column. In a written column, Mazz would explain the success rate value to SB, the importance of getting on base, the value of power when compared to speed. It would probably make sense. On radio? It sounds dumb and gets dumber with each mention.

So do you agree with him in principle, but disagree with the way he fashioned his message? Because I don't think that he's wrong, and philosophically, I'd say that most of baseball agrees with him in evidence by the fact that teams aren't running as much as they did in the 60s, 70s and 80s.

And like you touch upon in your final paragraph, let's remember the medium that Mazz is getting this message out: radio. He has to keep it simple because a highly detailed, highly nuanced treatise on why the running game is not that big of a deal will cause people to change the channel. You have to be quick, loud and to the point to be "good" on radio. That's fact, not opinion.

 

[HomeBrew1901]

You hopped into your car to run a quick errand and yet you immediately put these guys on. Why on earth should management change anything? They're pulling in listeners. Yes, in the same way as Stern many people tune in because they hate them and want to be outraged, but it seems to me that management is getting exactly what they want from these two dickheads: ears on the radio dial.

The only way to get management to change these two dickheads is to hurt them in the ratings. Turn off those goddamn radios.

Point of clarification, I don't listen to music on the radio and on the way into work I was listening to T&R and my station was already on TSH. I wasn't going to link my Ipod for a 3 minute drive and I didn't feel like changing stations to hope I could find a song I liked.

On the drive home I'll be listening to one of the podcasts that I downloaded, so in that sense I've been doing exactly what you are advocating. I'm not outraged, not even remotely, I'm disappointed because this show used to be so much better than it has been over the last 3 months.

Edit: Dickheads is an underated and underused insult, kudos to using it twice in one post.

 

[HomeBrew1901]

And like you touch upon in your final paragraph, let's remember the medium that Mazz is getting this message out: radio. He has to keep it simple because a highly detailed, highly nuanced treatise on why the running game is not that big of a deal will cause people to change the channel. You have to be quick, loud and to the point to be "good" on radio. That's fact, not opinion.

I couldn't disagree with you more on this final point, he has four hours to try and explain his position simply, shit you just did it in two sentences in your prior post. Instead it is easier to make a general statement that "120 steals is overated" because it generates more callers to the program that want to fight him on that point.

 

[Seels]

Are they seriously spending this much time talking about the environment of Cape Cod / Seals / Sharks? Jesus.

 

[BoSoxFink]

Are they seriously spending this much time talking about the environment of Cape Cod / Seals / Sharks? Jesus.

Not only are they talking about it, they are talking nonsense about it. Half of the crap that all of them are saying is utterly ridiculous nonsense and makes no sense at all. Today's show is infuriating

 

[soxfan121]

So do you agree with him in principle, but disagree with the way he fashioned his message? Because I don't think that he's wrong, and philosophically, I'd say that most of baseball agrees with him in evidence by the fact that teams aren't running as much as they did in the 60s, 70s and 80s.

And like you touch upon in your final paragraph, let's remember the medium that Mazz is getting this message out: radio. He has to keep it simple because a highly detailed, highly nuanced treatise on why the running game is not that big of a deal will cause people to change the channel. You have to be quick, loud and to the point to be "good" on radio. That's fact, not opinion.

Yup - he's making the "right" argument in the stupidest manner possible. I'm sure Mazz's opinion is based on the success rate % of stolen bases and that is a very boring (math) point. It's easier to say he "prefers home runs", loudly and quickly (and shrill-ly. Every thing Mazz says is shrill).

And HB, I disagree. I don't think Tony Mazz is making an "easy" point. I think he's making half of a good point and isn't eloquent enough to explain what he has based the McCarver-sounding "120 steals is overrated" opinion on. Put another way - I don't think he's intentionally trolling the audience, I think he's not a good enough speaker to put it together in two sentences. He can with the written word. He has. And he has similarly failed to translate any of his knowledge (which is apparent in print) to radio because, for him, it's the wrong format.

If he could script things, he'd be better. But that brings up his other failing as a radio host ... show prep. He sees this as a 2-7 job and does NOTHING outside that time to prep. When he does file a column, he often has a coherent point the next day on the radio. When he doesn't, he exposes his laziness, not his lack of knowledge.

 

[HomeBrew1901]

Yup - he's making the "right" argument in the stupidest manner possible. I'm sure Mazz's opinion is based on the success rate % of stolen bases and that is a very boring (math) point. It's easier to say he "prefers home runs", loudly and quickly (and shrill-ly. Every thing Mazz says is shrill).

And HB, I disagree. I don't think Tony Mazz is making an "easy" point. I think he's making half of a good point and isn't eloquent enough to explain what he has based the McCarver-sounding "120 steals is overrated" opinion on. Put another way - I don't think he's intentionally trolling the audience, I think he's not a good enough speaker to put it together in two sentences. He can with the written word. He has. And he has similarly failed to translate any of his knowledge (which is apparent in print) to radio because, for him, it's the wrong format.

If he could script things, he'd be better. But that brings up his other failing as a radio host ... show prep. He sees this as a 2-7 job and does NOTHING outside that time to prep. When he does file a column, he often has a coherent point the next day on the radio. When he doesn't, he exposes his laziness, not his lack of knowledge.

I think you and I mostly agree. I think he can make a full good point instead of half of one, even on the radio, he just chooses not to. He is much much better on his own baseball show than he is on F&M, why that is I can only speculate, but the talent and ability are there for him to easily explain why he feels steals are overated.

 

[Phenom]

Not only are they talking about it, they are talking nonsense about it. Half of the crap that all of them are saying is utterly ridiculous nonsense and makes no sense at all. Today's show is infuriating

I much prefer it to the continuation of the 10 month long Josh Beckett/Jon Lester rant. (Not that the points made about those two are completely inaccurate. It's just that WE'VE HEARD THE SAME THING FOR 10 MONTHS NOW.)

Sure, it's lazy radio, but a hell of a lot more entertaining than Mazz telling me, "Lester is a good kid in his core. I believe that. He comes from a good area of the country."

Maybe that's indicative of the point we are at with this show, that a 2 hour discussion on seals and sharks roaming the waters of Nantucket is preferable to the sports talk, but it is what it is.

-On a side note, anybody check out Ordway and Holley recently? I just can't bring myself to change the dial, although I have been doing it often from 10-2 in order to avoid GRESH. But in the midday, I'm mostly music anyway if I do have the radio on.

 

[Rocco Graziosa]

I much prefer it to the continuation of the 10 month long Josh Beckett/Jon Lester rant. (Not that the points made about those two are completely inaccurate. It's just that WE'VE HEARD THE SAME THING FOR 10 MONTHS NOW.)

Sure, it's lazy radio, but a hell of a lot more entertaining than Mazz telling me, "Lester is a good kid in his core. I believe that. He comes from a good area of the country."

Maybe that's indicative of the point we are at with this show, that a 2 hour discussion on seals and sharks roaming the waters of Nantucket is preferable to the sports talk, but it is what it is.

-On a side note, anybody check out Ordway and Holley recently? I just can't bring myself to change the dial, although I have been doing it often from 10-2 in order to avoid GRESH. But in the midday, I'm mostly music anyway if I do have the radio on.

I'm very surprised they haven't plucked some ideas from the old Mike and the Mad Dog show. Talk about tv ratings. Talk about your personal lives once in a while. Talk about vegas odds and lines.

They have this urge to constantly stay provincial in every topic they discuss on the show, and it doesn't have to be that way. At least not for the entire FOUR HOUR show.

 

[soxfan121]

1. It's the middle of summer, the Red Sox aren't very good or very bad and there's very little other sports news to discuss that isn't horribly depressing.
2. Ordway and Holley still sound like they were introduced about 45 seconds before the show went on the air AND the smell of a fart was lingering in the room, making both suspicious that the other dropped the fart. Oh, and neither takes a stand on anything, so if you want someone to sort-of, but-not-really say inoffensive things about Beckett & Lester, this is the show for you.

 

[Mystic Merlin]

I'm very surprised they haven't plucked some ideas from the old Mike and the Mad Dog show. Talk about tv ratings. Talk about your personal lives once in a while. Talk about vegas odds and lines.

They have this urge to constantly stay provincial in every topic they discuss on the show, and it doesn't have to be that way. At least not for the entire FOUR HOUR show.

Yep.

Remember the Super Bowl trivia contest? I tuned in every year to hear the Marquis mock people who didn't know the the back judge in Super Bowl IX. 'Bad job by him, Mike.'

 

[Darnell's Son]

Not only are they talking about it, they are talking nonsense about it. Half of the crap that all of them are saying is utterly ridiculous nonsense and makes no sense at all. Today's show is infuriating

The bolded fits in with the recent theme of the show.

 

[ForKeeps]

You'll have to give Mazz another 10 years at least before he can grasp the value of high-percentage SB and defense. Let's just be thankful he knows what OPS is.

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

I'm very surprised they haven't plucked some ideas from the old Mike and the Mad Dog show. Talk about tv ratings. Talk about your personal lives once in a while. Talk about vegas odds and lines.

They have this urge to constantly stay provincial in every topic they discuss on the show, and it doesn't have to be that way. At least not for the entire FOUR HOUR show.

The on thing I'd like them (and Ordway and his jolly band of nutters) to copy M&MD religiously is not to talk over each other. Mike and MD were very, very good at this: even though they were on opposite sides of most arguments, they didn't interrupt each other and actually let the other guy complete his sentences. Made the show very listenable.

 

[Spud]

Mazz has an article today taking both Lester and Beckett to task for being big piles of stink since last September. Here's the article, which is not particularly well written or woth spending much time on: http://www.boston.com/sports/columnists/massarotti/2012/07/red_sox_aces_are_killing_the_s.html

This paragraph did, however, catch my attention:

With all due respect to Lester, embarrassing does not even begin to describe it. Pathetic is more like it. Between them, Lester and Beckett count for $23 million against the Red Sox luxury-tax payroll. Add in the $16.5 million price tag for John Lackey - who lockers next to Beckett and whose lot line features an insulting bottle opener that still hangs after the debacle of last September - and the number jumps to $39.5 million for the alleged three-headed monster the Red Sox built atop their rotation prior to the 2010 season.

What's up with the "insulting bottle opener"?

 

[NortheasternPJ]

Apparently Beckett and lackey hung a bottle opener on their locker that says something about rednecks. Not sure of what the backstory is but it seems to a lot of people like an fuck off, we don't care what you think type statement.

 

[TOleary25]

Apparently Beckett and lackey hung a bottle opener on their locker that says something about rednecks. Not sure of what the backstory is but it seems to a lot of people like an fuck off, we don't care what you think type statement.

Yea, during one of the post game interviews with Beckett over the weekend you could see it hanging up behind him. It says "First Class White Trash" on it, not sure if it was Lackeys or Becketts.

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

Yea, during one of the post game interviews with Beckett over the weekend you could see it hanging up behind him. It says "First Class White Trash" on it, not sure if it was Lackeys or Becketts.

Why is that insulting? Is Mazz such a delicate hothouse flower that he's offended by that?

Christ.

 

[HomeBrew1901]

Why is that insulting? Is Mazz such a delicate hothouse flower that he's offended by that?

Christ.

Yeah, SJH, he's such a delicate flower that it was the White Trash part that offended him.

 

[teddykgb]

Can't believe I'm typing this, but in the spirit of Felger needing his m&md counterpart, I wonder if tsh didn't miss something when Pete Shepard was available. It seems kind of crazy, but Pete has been good on EEI since his return, and his "love the home team to death" thing may have contrasted well with Felger. I agree with others that Bertrand is good, but ultimately he's too like Felger. They need to find a diehard Boston guy for Felger to "troll" so that listeners are almost always agreeing with one of the hosts.

 

[Phenom]

Subbing out Wiggy for Sean McAdam today was a great move. At least we know 98.5 isn't apt to repeat the old WEEI mistake of having Smerlas and DeOssie co-host on a day like today.

 

[BoSoxFink]

The best thing about the Sox not moving Beckett or making a big move today is getting to listen to Felger whine about it like a baby incessantly all day long.

 

[Jackson]

The best thing about the Sox not moving Beckett or making a big move today is getting to listen to Felger whine about it like a baby incessantly all day long.

Not terribly surprising because he is a baby. That's what babies do.

 

[ForKeeps]

Tuned in for 5 minutes, just in time to hear Felger do a mock nerd voice to illustrate the point that the Red Sox need to pay less attention to their "computer printouts" and more to the "human element."

Tony's response? "Mike, I think it's a big question with this team!" Naturally.

 

[BoSoxFink]

Felger is driving me insane with this Beckett stuff. It was like Mazz with the Teixiera stuff before. It is all Felger talks about anymore and today he is claiming Beckett pulled his back fat last night because he is out of shape. While Beckett may indeed be fat/out of shape I am not sure how much that really matters with pitchers. Ever hear of David Wells and C.C. Sabathia?

 

[Helmet Head]

I just can't listen to this anymore. He says the same thing over and over and over.

Felger should take a look at Beckett in 07. He looks the same to me.

 

[Lose Remerswaal]

Felger is driving me insane with this Beckett stuff. It was like Mazz with the Teixiera stuff before. It is all Felger talks about anymore and today he is claiming Beckett pulled his back fat last night because he is out of shape. While Beckett may indeed be fat/out of shape I am not sure how much that really matters with pitchers. Ever hear of David Wells and C.C. Sabathia?

I've got some advice for you: Change the station.

I just can't listen to this anymore. He says the same thing over and over and over.

Felger should take a look at Beckett in 07. He looks the same to me.

I've also got some advice for you: CHANGE THE STATION.


It's really not that difficult to avoid these idiots.

 

[AimingForYoko]

I just can't listen to this anymore. He says the same thing over and over and over.

I'm surprised that you guys are still listening. I turned them off weeks ago. Hell, I don't even listen to the Baseball Sow anymore because everyone thinks that it's cool to be Felger so they try their damnedest to imitate him.

The only thing that annoys me is that I can't listen to SportsTonight because Felger's face and his "facts" make me want to punch my tv.

 

[BoSoxFink]

I've got some advice for you: Change the station.



I've also got some advice for you: CHANGE THE STATION.


It's really not that difficult to avoid these idiots.

I just did, I am going to give WEEI a try and see what is happening there. I am sure it will be just as bad.....

 

[Humphrey]

I just can't listen to this anymore. He says the same thing over and over and over.

Felger should take a look at Beckett in 07. He looks the same to me.

And it's not like there's not enough leaks around that clubhouse/team that your hypothesis couldn't be proven or disproven...but, no, they can't do that, it might ruin their incessant rant.

 

[lostjumper]

I just did, I am going to give WEEI a try and see what is happening there. I am sure it will be just as bad.....

The only way F&M will change is if the rating continue to go down for them. Last ratings period they were below the Big Show for the first time since they started, but many, including them it seems chalked it up to C's versus B's and F&M hasn't changed a bit. Hopefully if the ratings continue they will realize its because their show sucks right now.

 

[Castor Troy]

Did anyone else hear Mazz fumble through his scouting analysis on Jackie Bradley Jr.? Maybe I am being too harsh on him, but is it too much to ask for the "baseball guy" on the show to know a little bit about one of the best prospects in the system ie what round he was drafted in/what his best attributes are etc??

 

[steveluck7]

Yes because he's just "fast" and was drafted "late, I think."

 

[Castor Troy]

Yes because he's just "fast" and was drafted "late, I think."

Exactly!

"I don't put a lot of stock in that(minors?) stuff".. Yikes. I'm seeing more and more that the other knock on Mazz(other than him never disagreeing with Felger) is true. He doesn't seem to put a ton of work into research. I believe Bertrand nailed it in his 98 mile rap when he called him a lazy f***

 

[JohnnyTheBone]

I'm seeing more and more that the other knock on Mazz(other than him never disagreeing with Felger) is true. He doesn't seem to put a ton of work into research. I believe Bertrand nailed it in his 98 mile rap when he called him a lazy f***

Sure, a big media guy like Tony doesn't really have the inclination to watch all that boring baseball anymore, but he makes up for his lack of knowledge with his sparkling personalit...

Oh, nevermind.

 

[lostjumper]

What sport does Mazz like to watch? Is it any at this point? During a WEEI commercial yesterday I flipped over to F&M and Mazz says, "I don't watch the Olympics. They're boring".

Ok, so we know he doesn't watch baseball or the Olympics because they are boring. He hates basketball, and I'm pretty sure he knows nothing about hockey. Football maybe? It's odd that a sports talk show host doesn't seem to actually watch any sports. Which is probably his opinions usually suck and he just agrees with Felger on everything.

 

[HomeBrew1901]

I'm not going to jump in here and defend F&M because like AimingforYoko, I stopped listening to them a few weeks ago when it started to become unbearable. I'll still tune in for a few minutes here or there but when they start to annoy me or I realize it's going to be the same old shit, I change the station or turn on my IPod.

It amazes me that the same people posting here day after day after day about how much the show sucks or how big of a douche Felger is and how big of an idiot Mazz is, still take the time to not only listen to the show but to then run here to post about how bad it is. At this point you know what you are going to get until the NFL starts again.

I mean shit, look at the number of posts in The Big Show thread since Felger and Mazz came on the air. It wasn't until F&M that The Big Show went through major changes and the show still sucks. If you are still posting, then presumably you are still tuning in so obviously Felger is doing something right by getting you guys to listen and then bitch about what you are hearing and nothing is going to change on that show until you stop tuning in.

So really, who is the bigger idiot? The guy who gets paid big bucks to regurgitate the same points over and over again or the guy that listens over and over again and instead of changing the channel bitches about it on the internet.

 

[NickEsasky]

I can't stand Ordway or D&C so I rarely listened to sports radio prior to 98.5, but F&M had me switching over to EEI last night on my commute. I hate Beckett as much as the next guy, but I also don't want to listen to radio ripping him for 4 straight hours and hear how fans should be applauded for booing his injury. It's tiresome, and it's forced me to do something I never do - listen to EEI.

 

[BoSoxFink]

I'm not going to jump in here and defend F&M because like AimingforYoko, I stopped listening to them a few weeks ago when it started to become unbearable. I'll still tune in for a few minutes here or there but when they start to annoy me or I realize it's going to be the same old shit, I change the station or turn on my IPod.

It amazes me that the same people posting here day after day after day about how much the show sucks or how big of a douche Felger is and how big of an idiot Mazz is, still take the time to not only listen to the show but to then run here to post about how bad it is. At this point you know what you are going to get until the NFL starts again.

I mean shit, look at the number of posts in The Big Show thread since Felger and Mazz came on the air. It wasn't until F&M that The Big Show went through major changes and the show still sucks. If you are still posting, then presumably you are still tuning in so obviously Felger is doing something right by getting you guys to listen and then bitch about what you are hearing and nothing is going to change on that show until you stop tuning in.

So really, who is the bigger idiot? The guy who gets paid big bucks to regurgitate the same points over and over again or the guy that listens over and over again and instead of changing the channel bitches about it on the internet.

It's more along the lines of the lesser of two evils. I like to listen to Sports talk radio while I am at work and I can't stand Ordway and the Big Show. So I really am not left with much of choice. I suppose I could listen to music, but I am a sports fanatic that can't get enough I guess.

 

[HomeBrew1901]

It's more along the lines of the lesser of two evils. I like to listen to Sports talk radio while I am at work and I can't stand Ordway and the Big Show. So I really am not left with much of choice. I suppose I could listen to music, but I am a sports fanatic that can't get enough I guess.

I used to be the same way with EEI when there was no choice, so I get it.

Serious question, have you ever tried some of the sports podcasts that are out there? I'm not sure if it needs to be Boston Centric, but if you don't mind national sports discussion I've heard there are some great ones. I started listening to Bill Simmons and he's not nearly as bad as I was expecting.

 

[Billy Jo Robidoux]

I obviously fit the profile of Felger's target audience, because I never get tired of hearing him rip the Christ out of Josh Beckett. It's endlessly amusing.

He pulled his back fat and had to tap out of an important start.

LOL.

 

[BoSoxFink]

I used to be the same way with EEI when there was no choice, so I get it.

Serious question, have you ever tried some of the sports podcasts that are out there? I'm not sure if it needs to be Boston Centric, but if you don't mind national sports discussion I've heard there are some great ones. I started listening to Bill Simmons and he's not nearly as bad as I was expecting.

No I haven't tried that, but it may not be a bad alternative. I normally would prefer Boston Cebtric but anything has to be better than what I've heard on these two stations recently

 

[berniecarbo1]

No I haven't tried that, but it may not be a bad alternative. I normally would prefer Boston Cebtric but anything has to be better than what I've heard on these two stations recently

There are some real good podcasts out there, and there are some good national shows on Fox radio and ESPN radio. The problem with local sports talk is that it drills in on the same shit over and over again until you want to jump out a window. It is the same in NYC, Chicago and here in Los Angeles. I listen to F&M on the internet at work but this summer I have found myself putting on Pandora and listening to music like Coldplay and U2....and waiting for football when F&M comes back from the beyond.

 

[SidelineCameras]

I don't mind Wiggy as much as many of you here, I daresay even enjoy him sometimes, especially when it comes to football talk. But yesterday's discussion of Michael Phelps vs Usain Bolt and how swimming is an "event" as opposed to a sport is just about the dumbest thing I've ever heard.

I do find it mildly amusing that Wiggy can't tell when Felger and Mazz are yanking his chain and that he seems to jump into all the traps they lay for him.

 

[Andy Merchant]

I thought yesterday was awful and I would be quite pleased to never hear Jermaine's voice again, yet I had zero desire to change the channel to EEI. I hope Ordway is let go at the end of his contract so that they have an afternoon show that is actually a listenable alternative when Felger & Mazz go off the rails.

 

[the1andonly3003]

F&M bashing yesterday's Wiggy today is great

 

[BannedbyNYYFans.com]

I normally hate Wiggy but I thoroughly enjoyed him yesterday and couldn't stop laughing at him. He's out of him mind. Arguing that becoming an Olympic level swimmer is something "anybody can do who just tries hard" unlike Olympic sprinters is insane. He literally said Phelps had no God given talent or athletic advantage due to his body. "He simply worked hard. Anybody can do that." He's a complete moron.

 

[mt8thsw9th]

F&M bashing yesterday's Wiggy today is great

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jermaine_Wiggins

 

[the1andonly3003]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jermaine_Wiggins

I bet editors there will take that piece out soon? funny to see how long it lasts

 

[mt8thsw9th]

And it's gone. For posterity, here's the edit:

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Jermaine_Wiggins&oldid=506319981