This season is more about Mac and if hes our QB of the future than wins and losses. Did we forget how putrid the offense was last year. There FIRST game under a new OC with a shaky Oline and two rookie receivers he went for 340 and 3 TD's vs one of the best defenses in the NFL and people are down today. Relax enjoy the year there are zero expectations. They looked night and day from last year thats a major step forward.
Game 1 Philly, goats
- Thread starter Eddie Jurak
- Start date
Before I read through this thread--I'm perfectly fine with the offense as a work in progress, considered Mac barely played in the preseason, the OL started 2 rookies against a fearsome pass rush, it was raining, etc. Even elite QBs have bad throws, drives, quarters, halves, games--I mean, I watched Joe Burrow yesterday. Even the most optimistic ones here most likely marked the Eagles game as a loss.
I am still annoyed with Wise lining up in the fucking neutral zone on the first drive.
At the end of the day a loss is a loss, but that loss was due to execution, which I would think will improve. Last year there were games where it just didn't look like the offense had a clue. This isn't that. And that's a very good thing.
I am still annoyed with Wise lining up in the fucking neutral zone on the first drive.
At the end of the day a loss is a loss, but that loss was due to execution, which I would think will improve. Last year there were games where it just didn't look like the offense had a clue. This isn't that. And that's a very good thing.
I don't understand the view that Mac played poorly yesterday. He had a terrible throw for a pick six. Totally on him (though the receiver could have bailed him out, but that's what it would have been, bailing Mac out). But quite often, tipped balls don't result in pick sixes. There was a ball that Hurts threw that was tipped that landed harmlessly to the ground. In any case, a terrible throw. And he had other bad throws - the one where Bourne had Slay beaten by five yards and then Slay came back to knock it away immediately comes to mind. Mac put too much air under it when he had Bourne wide open, and that allowed Slay to recover.
But the guy threw for 316 yards and 3 touchdowns. He was their offense because he got no help from the running game. He did this against one of the best defenses in the NFL in wet conditions.
The reality is that we analyze Mac like no other QB in the league, and it makes sense why. We watch his every play, and we don't do that for any other QB in the league. If we are going to pick on Mac's bad throws, we can literally do that for every other QB and point out their bad throws, because they all have them, nearly every game (Brady didn't have any when he went 26-28 against Jacksonville in the playoffs, as a counter example). Lawrence had them yesterday. Burrow had tons of them. Mahomes had them. Hurts had them. Everyone did.
Put it this way: if 316 yards on 64% completions, 3 td, and 1 int is going to represent a "poor" performance by Mac, then we should all be thrilled.
He still needs to WIN one of these games though, and I worry that he's just good enough to lose close games to good teams.
But the guy threw for 316 yards and 3 touchdowns. He was their offense because he got no help from the running game. He did this against one of the best defenses in the NFL in wet conditions.
The reality is that we analyze Mac like no other QB in the league, and it makes sense why. We watch his every play, and we don't do that for any other QB in the league. If we are going to pick on Mac's bad throws, we can literally do that for every other QB and point out their bad throws, because they all have them, nearly every game (Brady didn't have any when he went 26-28 against Jacksonville in the playoffs, as a counter example). Lawrence had them yesterday. Burrow had tons of them. Mahomes had them. Hurts had them. Everyone did.
Put it this way: if 316 yards on 64% completions, 3 td, and 1 int is going to represent a "poor" performance by Mac, then we should all be thrilled.
He still needs to WIN one of these games though, and I worry that he's just good enough to lose close games to good teams.
You’re not. To win in the NFL he needs to be reliable for four quarters. Does that mean he can’t make mistakes? Of course not. Every QB makes bad reads and bad throws.
But when Mac makes them it puts the team in a hole it doesn’t have the talent to dig out of. Nor does he have the talent to pull the team up himself. That’s the difference between winning games, making the playoffs, and eventually winning Super Bowls. You really don’t have to be Patrick Mahomes if your team, collectively, is good. You just have to be reliable and not consistently hurting the team.
In so many games - particularly against strong competition - Mac hurts us in ways the team, nor he, can dig out of. He needs to be better for four quarters, week in and week out, or at least RELIABLE for four quarters, and this really is his ‘prove it’ year.
So far he’s 0-1 in 2023’s ‘prove it’ moments.
It's really an entire team thing though. It's Wise lining up in the neutral zone. It's Zeke fumbling. It's Barringer punting into the end zone from the 43 or whatever. It's Bill not kicking FGs, and then going for 4th and 17 instead of punting. And of course it's also Mac, especially the first 10 minutes. They're not a good enough team to overcome that stuff, and Mac's not a good enough QB to overcome that stuff. They have to play solid, fundamental football, and too often over the past 3 years they shoot themselves in the foot. When it's all clicking we have seen what they are capable of. It just hasn't happened much, especially since December 2021.
Edit: to be clear, this is by no means a defense of Mac. I'm trying to say he's not good enough to overcome this stuff. They don't need to be "perfect". They need to not beat themselves. For whatever reason, the former trademark of BB teams has disappeared in the last few years. Maybe it was Brady, but as someone else said, I don't think Brady vs. Mac makes Wise line up offside.
Count me among those optimistic about this team, despite the loss. Last year, the question was "is this team ever going to go more than 3-out?" and last night they were a Boutte foot down from making it really interesting. There were definitely mistakes. Painful ones. But they were in the game for the most part against the defending NFC champs and could have pulled it out with a few breaks. They looked like they knew what they were doing, even if the physical talent wasn't there. I will take that every day and twice on Sunday over last year.
Boutte has to do a better job there, but his whole life, until this summer, was 1 foot down. I know he's now paid to get 2 feet down but sometimes we revert to what we've always done. I think the DB may have pushed him a bit too. I was just hoping on the replay we would've seen his other foot down at the catch.
Anway, against the Eagles, 2 rookie OL starting, 2 rookie WR on the field in the final drives, a rookie DB knocking down the 4th down pass. There's something there. Next step is winning one of these games.
Anway, against the Eagles, 2 rookie OL starting, 2 rookie WR on the field in the final drives, a rookie DB knocking down the 4th down pass. There's something there. Next step is winning one of these games.
FWIW, I thought Mac threw the ball down the middle well all day. Not sure if the stats bear that out but that seemed like a comfort zone. The sideline stuff was hold-your-breath. Some of those outs it felt like the ball took a million years to get to the receiver. The last throw to Boutte was a good one, though. Overall I thought it was a lackluster offesnive performance, more of the same as last year though the aesthics looked more competent. Couldn't run it an inch. Shaky receiving play, incosistent accuracy from teh QB. They got hot at the end of the 2nd quarter but the other 50 minutes they were stuck in the mud. They had exceptional field position all day and couldn't do anything with it (they started 5 drives at their own 40 or better and scored zero points).
I thought the defense was exceptional. The Eagles only made 2 trips into the red zone all day, the first drive and then after the fumble where they took over on the NE26. They looked to be tiring at the end but forced long field goals and gave the offense every opportunity to steal it.
Apply all the caveats about injuries and opponents or whatever but at some point they have to win games.
I thought the defense was exceptional. The Eagles only made 2 trips into the red zone all day, the first drive and then after the fumble where they took over on the NE26. They looked to be tiring at the end but forced long field goals and gave the offense every opportunity to steal it.
Apply all the caveats about injuries and opponents or whatever but at some point they have to win games.
I don't know why we keep throwing out raw box score totals to say he had a great game. They averaged 5.6 yards per drop back. It's not like he reached those numbers on 35 attempts. I don't think he was bad or the reason they lost or anything, but the volume doesn't mean a lot given how often they threw the ball.
I didn't say he had a great game. I said "I don't understand the view that Mac played poorly". There's a lot of room between those two.
Or more likely it was the scheme designed to counter Philly’s D and as DOTB noted as an alternative to the run game.
You are correct. DOTB did a good job explaining why the raw stats here (5.6 ypa) don’t tell the story. I think you were implying the reverse but important to point out it cuts both ways.
The one good thing we can take away from this game is that Mac is able to bounce back from bad play. He didn't sulk or panic like he often did last year. Otherwise though, the goats are clear: Boutte and Wise.
I think the defense did a really good job containing Hurts and not letting him kill us with his legs. It feels like in the past a QB like Hurts (like Josh Allen) would be turning the corner and scrambling for frustrating first downs, but it feels like the defense is finally fast enough and disciplined enough to avoid giving up those chunk plays.
Philly's possessions yesterday:
14 plays, 61 yards, FG - deepest advance: NE 15
4 plays, 26 yards, TD - deepest advance: NE end zone
3 plays, 2 yards, punt
3 plays, 3 yards, punt
3 plays, 3 yards, punt
3 plays, -9 yards, punt
11 plays, 50 yards, FG - deepest advance: NE 39
7 plays, 50 yards, FG - deepest advance: NE 31
1 play, 8 yards, fumble
4 plays, 8 yards, turnover on downs
1 play, -1 yards, end of game - don't count this as even a possession
So their kicker drilled a 56 yarder (longest kick by an opponent ever at Gillette), a 51 yarder, and a 48 yarder that hit the upright and bounced in. But the defense was terrific. One TD allowed on a very short field. Three solid drives by Philly that all ended in long FGs as the NE defense stood tall. And then six possessions that netted a total of 15 yards. That's awesome defense against a very talented offense.
14 plays, 61 yards, FG - deepest advance: NE 15
4 plays, 26 yards, TD - deepest advance: NE end zone
3 plays, 2 yards, punt
3 plays, 3 yards, punt
3 plays, 3 yards, punt
3 plays, -9 yards, punt
11 plays, 50 yards, FG - deepest advance: NE 39
7 plays, 50 yards, FG - deepest advance: NE 31
1 play, 8 yards, fumble
4 plays, 8 yards, turnover on downs
1 play, -1 yards, end of game - don't count this as even a possession
So their kicker drilled a 56 yarder (longest kick by an opponent ever at Gillette), a 51 yarder, and a 48 yarder that hit the upright and bounced in. But the defense was terrific. One TD allowed on a very short field. Three solid drives by Philly that all ended in long FGs as the NE defense stood tall. And then six possessions that netted a total of 15 yards. That's awesome defense against a very talented offense.
I don't think he played poorly either, but it's more based on the decisive strikes he threw in the redzone and his ability to consistently get the ball out quickly and nullify the rush than the numbers. He did do a lot of good things in this game, I just think he had more bad plays than some here do, evidently.
Ok but I am saying that a throw that is a little off there is not usually a pick-six. You aren't getting picked off on a screen attempt or on a sideways throw that the defense can jump. There were a lot of throws this weekend. So maybe this week it was 3 in 100-500 passes between 10-15 yards (I have no idea how many passes were thrown at what distance this week) that were picked off in that situation. Maybe 1 in 1,000 is off. It is still an unlikely result from that throw. Zeke fumbling after being so sure-handed is also an unlikely event.
The pick-six leader last year, Dak, had 3 in 394 attempts. The other leader was Davis Mills who had 3 in 479 attempts. Those are the leaders. These things don't happen often. They are relatively flukey.
Yeah, pick sixes are almost always fluky and contextual, it's unfair to weigh them against a QB more than you would a regular interception.
My brother in law turned into rain man before that ball was even snapped.
"You're offsides...you're offsides...you're offsides..."
I was halfway through explaining to him that, yes, he was lined up offsides, but the refs will give him a warning before they throw the flag because that's how the...shit, there's the flag.
Who was the better QB yesterday?
I think it was Jones.
And the guy on the other side was 2nd in MVP race last year IIRC and is considered a favorite for this year.
I think it was Jones.
And the guy on the other side was 2nd in MVP race last year IIRC and is considered a favorite for this year.
I actually think what yesterday shows is that maybe the team DOES have the talent to dig out.
The D stayed strong and the offense made plays to dig out of a big, early hole.
- First Game in a Completely new offense third in three years.
- VS a Top three defense in DVOA last year.
- Missing both Guards and there best downfield receiver
- IF BB kicks the field goal instead of going for it and they win his C- would be B's with so much more positivity.
- if the fluky pick 6 falls to the ground instead of popping straight into the defense arms how's his day judged then.
Was he great no? But after last year's disaster for me yesterday was a positive game for him and the offense. They had a professional offense out there yesterday last year they didnt come close.
Total sports talk radio take, but I wonder how much of this is BOB. I remember early reports from training camp that he was a hard-ass and requiring more accountability. It's possible that having a guy like him to report to instead of the substitute teacher Patricia has led to some on-field behavioral improvement.
I saw enough from Mac yesterday to be encouraged about being a decent team this year. The defense was solid. However, I remain quite concerned about the consistent sloppiness that they’ve shown on offense at the most critical times. It’s almost part of their identity now and that, to me, is the most discouraging part.
Every year the team is a different team. Different OCs, some of the sloppy things where done by Boutte and Mafi who weren’t even on last years team. Maybe this will be a sloppy team maybe it won’t but I wouldn’t let one’s perception and the natural instinct to want to impose a narrative that team X is always this or that
I’m simply judging results. I’d like to see things change. It’s been multiple years now. Hopefully, BoB can be a positive influence.
No false starts yesterday. One DOG that was admittedly costly. Still a net improvement on last year.
I had very low expectations heading into this game.
I was hoping for:
1) a competitive game
2) an offense that could move the ball
3) a strong defense.
I got all three, and am generally more optimistic about this team than I was heading into yesterday's game.
There is hope.
I was hoping for:
1) a competitive game
2) an offense that could move the ball
3) a strong defense.
I got all three, and am generally more optimistic about this team than I was heading into yesterday's game.
There is hope.
The OL performance was pretty encouraging, yes. This team needs to get the running game going though. Miami should be easier on that front. Philly’s interior line is STOUT.
The game really seems to be a Rorschach test. You can see the mistakes and the failure to comeback to win and say "here we go again". And you can see the progress from last season and the competitiveness with a high caliber opponent and be optimistic.
I'm in the latter camp. I saw enough to be able to squint and see a fringe playoff team emerging. The D was outstanding, and the O seemed leaps and bounds more functional than last year.
That being said, this optimism will sour quickly if they don't translate progress into wins. And I think that has to start next week.
I'm in the latter camp. I saw enough to be able to squint and see a fringe playoff team emerging. The D was outstanding, and the O seemed leaps and bounds more functional than last year.
That being said, this optimism will sour quickly if they don't translate progress into wins. And I think that has to start next week.
This tracks with how I am thinking about yesterday. I thought they were going to get blown out, and they came out of the locker room and proceeded to look like dogshit for the first quarter. I thought they were the better team from there on, but there were too many mistakes and too many wasted possessions on offense to overcome the horrible start.
At some point they have to start beating playoff contenders.
Not sure I 100% or just like 75-80% agree with the last statement and timing but I’m with you 100% on everything else.
There's space in front of him? I mean, have we really gone from "bad pass, but not his fault Zeke fumbled" to "that's the only way that throw could have been completed"?
I think this is kind of the point. The last few years vs. good teams they have been competitive at times but the game ends with lots of "ifs". Eventually they just need to translate competition into wins, to the point where they don't need to rely on various things breaking their way.
Exactly. This was a true competitive game, not like the Bengals game last year where they got killed and needed a ton of fluky stuff to go their way in order to be in position to win.
That's fair. I'm being aggressive since I think the team will burn up the goodwill they generated from yesterday if they go out and lose to Miami next Sunday.
I'm not suggesting their playoff chances are toast if they start 0-2, but that sure makes it a lot more difficult.
With road games at NYJ and DAL after Miami, I view next week and a pretty close to must win. Very real chance of being 1-3 or 0-4 after 4 games, which would make playoff extremely difficult. There are some winnable games in the middle of the schedule so going 2-2 after 4 would have me pretty sky high about this team’s prospects.
Fwiw, ESPN analytics had going for it on 4th and 3 at 21.4% win percentage and kicking fg as 20.8%, so the odds very slightly favored going for it. That's where my gut was real time - close to even odds, would favor going for it versus Eagles. Same close call with the 4th and 17, though I probably would have punted there given Mac's lack of arm strength and the D crowding downfield.
Tom Brady had 6 different games in the 2013 regular season with YPA that were worse than Mac's yesterday.
The Pats offense that season finished 3rd in the NFL in points, and 7th in yards.
These stats are fucking useless without context.
I watched that a few times and I think the main problem was with the route Zeke took to get out to the flat. He got much too tight to Trent Brown and the Eagle rusher and I don't think Mac could see over Brown and ended up throwing to the spot where Zeke was supposed to be and the ball ended up well behind Zeke. If Zeke had "bellied" around Brown and the Eagle rusher he would have given Mac a better sight line and probaly a better result. Mac could have adjusted to this by delaying the pass another half second but he probably was feeling the pressure up the middle and decided to dump it when he did.
I think the Mac discussion demands it’s own thread, because there are two different arguments being made here (the “did he perform well” argument and the “was his performance encouraging given context?” one). I think there both worthy discussions but the latter one seems more like a Mac development/seasonal discussion.
This, plus I think that Zeke should have followed his momentum and gone towards the outside, rather than spinning back inside.