General Offseason Thread.

[wade boggs chicken dinner]

I'm old enough to remember when folks were devastated that we didn't grab him in the draft. His name came up a few times since too. Another diva big like Bamba. Plenty of talent but no heart.

I'm old enough to remember that the Cs had Bol Bol on the roster and people were wondering why we traded him. Particularly in the 1st part of last season, where he was starting and putting up some numbers.

Given that a lot of big men mature later than other players (due in part, I would guess, that being so tall makes BBall really easy when they are young) and given that assuming the Cs are going to be 2nd apron team with limited means of acquiring talent, if it were me, I'd try to sign him to the end of the bench and see if Al would be his mentor. He still has a world of talent and could pop if he could get the mental part down.

 

[Jimbodandy]

I'm old enough to remember that the Cs had Bol Bol on the roster and people were wondering why we traded him. Particularly in the 1st part of last season, where he was starting and putting up some numbers.

Given that a lot of big men mature later than other players (due in part, I would guess, that being so tall makes BBall really easy when they are young) and given that assuming the Cs are going to be 2nd apron team with limited means of acquiring talent, if it were me, I'd try to sign him to the end of the bench and see if Al would be his mentor. He still has a world of talent and could pop if he could get the mental part down.

All of this makes sense. My uninformed WAG is that the bolded has been evaluated, and the results are visible in our multiple chances to acquire/keep him and choosing not to.

 

[PedroKsBambino]

As someone who liked a gamble on him in mid-second round of draft I would say the increasingly-large body of evidecne is that the light just isn't going to go on for Bol Bol in terms of being a useful player on a decent team. A waste, but seems like where this is

 

[BigMike]

I'm old enough to remember that the Cs had Bol Bol on the roster and people were wondering why we traded him. Particularly in the 1st part of last season, where he was starting and putting up some numbers.

Given that a lot of big men mature later than other players (due in part, I would guess, that being so tall makes BBall really easy when they are young) and given that assuming the Cs are going to be 2nd apron team with limited means of acquiring talent, if it were me, I'd try to sign him to the end of the bench and see if Al would be his mentor. He still has a world of talent and could pop if he could get the mental part down.

I think a big part of the problem is he has never accepted the fact he is a big man. I remember seeing his tape when he was 16 and thinking, my god, I hate this kids game, and that was when he was being talked about as #1 player in his class.

I guess best case for him is that his career kind of mirrors Christian Wood's. He bounces around the league for a while, before ultimately getting it a bit putting up some decent numbers for a tanking team, but No one ever wants him back for a second season after dealing with him for one

 

[wade boggs chicken dinner]

I think a big part of the problem is he has never accepted the fact he is a big man. I remember seeing his tape when he was 16 and thinking, my god, I hate this kids game, and that was when he was being talked about as #1 player in his class.

I guess best case for him is that his career kind of mirrors Christian Wood's. He bounces around the league for a while, before ultimately getting it a bit putting up some decent numbers for a tanking team, but No one ever wants him back for a second season after dealing with him for one

There might have been some, "I don't want to be like my Dad and I want to be known as a complete basketball player" in his psyche but even BB admitted that he "could have worked harder" in DEN. (See: https://www.talkbasket.net/158127-bol-bol-admits-shortcomings-in-his-early-days-on-denver-i-feel-i-couldve-worked-a-lot-harder).

I didn't see any ORL games after they beat BOS back-to-back but from what I am reading, his biggest problem is that he just doesn't understand defensive schemes or rotations (plus he has issues on the perimeter, which I guess is less of a problem depending on what coverages the team is playing).

He also went something like 4- 48 from 3P land in his last couple of months with ORL, which is probably an outlier but problematic to evaluators I'm sure.

 

[ThePrideofShiner]

Not sure if this article got shared here or not, but I couldn't find it. An oral history of the Brian Windhorst First Take segment that led to his very famous meme.

It includes this gem:

Windhorst: The chairs on First Take are very, very good. In that particular moment, I leaned back because that chair is a great chair. You would never normally lean back, and so when I leaned back as part of the storytelling, I made gestures that I normally wouldn't. That just happened in the moment, but those are the best chairs. Stephen A. has rigorous chair requirements, and he is rewarded with spectacular, spectacular chairs on that desk.

To that whole finger thing—it wasn't the finger, it was the chair. Nobody respects the chair.

https://www.gq.com/story/brian-windhorst-very-strange-trade-oral-history

 

[benhogan]

https://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/272378/Pistons-Continue-To-Receive-Trade-Interest-On-Bojan-Bogdanovic

Yep, about time to cash in that chip Troy

 

[benhogan]

I'm old enough to remember that the Cs had Bol Bol on the roster and people were wondering why we traded him. Particularly in the 1st part of last season, where he was starting and putting up some numbers.

Given that a lot of big men mature later than other players (due in part, I would guess, that being so tall makes BBall really easy when they are young) and given that assuming the Cs are going to be 2nd apron team with limited means of acquiring talent, if it were me, I'd try to sign him to the end of the bench and see if Al would be his mentor. He still has a world of talent and could pop if he could get the mental part down.

Agreed, if he can't learn the role of the modern 5 from Al, KP & TimeLord he should just take up badminton

 

[wade boggs chicken dinner]

Interesting article that discusses how KP might solve one of the Cs ongoing problems - how to be a positive team when JT is off the court: https://www.celticsblog.com/2023/7/4/23775897/how-kristaps-porzingis-might-solve-one-of-boston-celtics-problems-jayson-tatum-on-off-numbers.

As we all know, if JB (assuming he isn't traded) and KP could figure out some two-person actions like PnR or dribble handoff or even pin-downs that would unlock the Cs when JT is off the floor, that would be the best result. More interesting from the article (to me) is this litany of the Cs past woes when JT isn't playing:

The problem relates to Jayson Tatum, but it also has nothing to do with him. The Celtics need to solve how to play above average basketball when Jayson Tatum sits on the bench. With the addition of Kristaps Porzingis, the Cs might finally have a solution.​

​

This issue has plagued them for a very long time. It dates back to the 2019-2020 season where the Celtics had a Big 4 (of sorts) featuring Jayson Tatum, Jaylen Brown, Kemba Walker, and Gordon Hayward. Even that disbursement of talent and salary wasn’t sufficient to solve this issue. The Cs’ net rating when Brown, Walker, and Hayward shared the floor while Tatum sat? A not good -2.32. More generally, the Celtics were +10.24 with Tatum on the court and -0.5 with him off.​

​

How about in 2020-21, the season that shall not be named? Well, even in that dreadful, COVID destroyed season, the Celtics outscored opponents by 3.2 points per 100 possessions when Tatum played. And when he sat, they were outscored by 2.0 points per 100.​

​

2021-22 is even more drastic — +11.8(!) with Tatum on the court and -2.6 when he was off. This past season was supposed to be the year that fixed it with Jaylen Brown at an All-NBA level, Malcolm Brogdon running the bench offense, and Derrick White shooting 40% from 3. Surely, we are at least not terrible when Tatum sits right? RIGHT?​

​

Actually, yes, at least in the regular season. For the first time since Kyrie Irving was on the team, the Celtics had a positive net rating when Jayson Tatum was on the bench. The Cs were +2.5 when Tatum sat this season, actually quite good. ​

 

[PedroKsBambino]

The reported Thybulle offer sheet from Mavs is interesting; if I were guessing, it would suggest they see Portland as less likely to match than Celtics (likely true).

Still teams out there who could sign Grant...

 

[TripleOT]

Agreed, if he can't learn the role of the modern 5 from Al, KP & TimeLord he should just take up badminton

Exactly. I like him better than Kabengele, and although Kornet often can play solid regular season minutes, I don’t see him getting any better. If Bol could take 10% of each of what AL, KP,, and TL do, he could be an effective fourth big.

 

[Cellar-Door]

Bol Bol should not be in the NBA, he's absolute garbage.

 

[Jimbodandy]

The reported Thybulle offer sheet from Mavs is interesting; if I were guessing, it would suggest they see Portland as less likely to match than Celtics (likely true).

Still teams out there who could sign Grant...

That offer seems like a lot of money. But if teams are willing to give that to Thybulle, there's a chance that Grant gets offered that too.

 

[Cellar-Door]

That offer seems like a lot of money. But if teams are willing to give that to Thybulle, there's a chance that Grant gets offered that too.

That's been the assumption all along, that Grant will get a full MLE offer, but word is Celtics would match that.

 

[ManicCompression]

That's been the assumption all along, that Grant will get a full MLE offer, but word is Celtics would match that.

I saw it mentioned on hoops rumors that if Portland matches, the Mavs would pivot to Grant. I'm curious if the Celtics could wrangle OMax in a deal with them as an S&T.

 

[the moops]

That offer seems like a lot of money. But if teams are willing to give that to Thybulle, there's a chance that Grant gets offered that too.

Do we even know what the Mavs offer sheet is?

 

[Cellar-Door]

I saw it mentioned on hoops rumors that if Portland matches, the Mavs would pivot to Grant. I'm curious if the Celtics could wrangle OMax in a deal with them as an S&T.

Lol
Teams don't trade 1sts for restricted FAs, you're looking at maybe a TPE or something

 

[BigMike]

Lol
Teams don't trade 1sts for restricted FAs, you're looking at maybe a TPE or something

The Celtics have been trying to suppress the market by leaking through their media they would demand a #1 , but that is bluster. Maybe you get a #2 or 2. Or really a super heavily protected 1 that is 6-7 years from now (still unlikely).

Mavs can't trade an Omax. at that point they aren't really getting better. They need him AND a player or two they add using the MLE in order to become a team that is deeper and can maybe compete

Thybulle is a perfect fit for Dallas, they need that dominant perimeter defender . Maybe GW is a batter player, but Thybulle is better fit

 

[ManicCompression]

Teams don't trade 1sts for restricted FAs, you're looking at maybe a TPE or something

Yeah, historically they don't, but Mavs are pretty desperate to get good now, and they don't get someone who can help them immediately if the Celtics match. Likely not OMax but there's a theoretical avenue to getting something interesting here.

A TPE doesn't do anything for the Celtics if it puts them over the second apron.

 

[Cellar-Door]

Yeah, historically they don't, but Mavs are pretty desperate to get good now, and they don't get someone who can help them immediately if the Celtics match. Likely not OMax but there's a theoretical avenue to getting something interesting here.

A TPE doesn't do anything for the Celtics if it puts them over the second apron.

Well really what is most likely based on team needs is a defacto TPE, that is immediately used to take in someone from a bottom feeder.
Only guy Mavs have that really fits the MLE or similar is McGee who I think the Celtics want no part of at 5.8 this year and a 6M player option.
If it's at the MLE level, guys around the league who you might be able to pick off cheap: Aaron Nesmith, Dean Wade, Kira Lewis?

If the Mavs give him up to 14M in year one that opens up... Khem Birch, Patty Mills, Rudy Gay, Otto Porter

I can't see them going much higher than 14.

However, if you don't need him for another trade, you can add Champagnie to the 3rd team. That opens up: Delon Wright, TJ McCOnnell, Isaac Okoro?

Hypothetically you could also go with Pritchard in this deal (makes any real big move harder): that gets you more options: Burks, Oladipo, Devonte Graham, Olynyk.

 

[DeadlySplitter]

View: https://twitter.com/wojespn/status/1676978032546856961?s=46

 

[the moops]

I would very much not like to have Thybulle on a 3/33 deal. Surprised POR does

 

[PedroKsBambino]

I wonder if there's a couple things going on for Portland: they want him as a tradeable asset; they are (post-Dame) potentially a little intersted in non-bad salary helping them to hit the floor; they see some upside to Thybulle based on his shooting while there last year?

I am surprised they matched, all in all...

 

[mcpickl]

I would very much not like to have Thybulle on a 3/33 deal. Surprised POR does

Same. I think he's maybe the most overrated player in the league. Maybe because he has such a fun name? If he was Matt, maybe people would think of him as the Andre Roberson that he is?

I'm not surprised Portland matched though. They're under the tax, and surely will stay there after a Dame trade. Might as well keep a guy that maybe some team out there likes enough to flip for an asset. Maybe even Dallas next summer?

I wonder if Dallas tried to work out a trade with Portland for Thybulle and were turned down. I think Portland was always more likely to match than Boston was on Grant, since that would've pushed the Celtics into the second apron.

 

[Cellar-Door]

Same. I think he's maybe the most overrated player in the league. Maybe because he has such a fun name? If he was Matt, maybe people would think of him as the Andre Roberson that he is?

I'm not surprised Portland matched though. They're under the tax, and surely will stay there after a Dame trade. Might as well keep a guy that maybe some team out there likes enough to flip for an asset. Maybe even Dallas next summer?

I wonder if Dallas tried to work out a trade with Portland for Thybulle and were turned down. I think Portland was always more likely to match than Boston was on Grant, since that would've pushed the Celtics into the second apron.

Amusingly... at the same age Andre Roberson was on a 3/30M deal in a much lower cap era.

 

[mcpickl]

Amusingly... at the same age Andre Roberson was on a 3/30M deal in a much lower cap era.

Ye old Bird rights trap. A tale as old as...Larry Bird I guess.

That OKC team was wild.

Starting Russ, Oladipo, Roberson, Sabonis and Steven Adams.

That's some 1960s level spacing.

 

[Devizier]

I forgot about Roberson, and the fact that he was in the league as recently as two years ago.

 

[TripleOT]

I would very much not like to have Thybulle on a 3/33 deal. Surprised POR does

Having a top defensive wing on a team with three explosive scorers with little to no defense on their callow resumes isn’t the worst thing. They signed The Mitten last summer to be their defense oriented little, and now retained Thybulle to fill that role.

 

[RedOctober3829]

View: https://twitter.com/chrisbhaynes/status/1677080011038400512?s=46&t=IVL2VrlFgLlpc3mjGGto8Q

 

[mcpickl]

This is very surprising

 

[Cellar-Door]

Honestly... despite thinking he's a terrible fit there... 30M a year should be easily tradeable when they crash out in the 1st round next year.

 

[slamminsammya]

This is very surprising

Why?

 

[Euclis20]

Honestly... despite thinking he's a terrible fit there... 30M a year should be easily tradeable when they crash out in the 1st round next year.

Yeah that's a pretty reasonable contract for a borderline all-star two-way guard just hitting his prime. He'll never really be worth what they had to give up to get him, but he's worth that money.

 

[Cellar-Door]

Yeah that's a pretty reasonable contract for a borderline all-star two-way guard just hitting his prime. He'll never really be worth what they had to give up to get him, but he's worth that money.

Of course the problem is likely going to be that they'll John Collins it... refuse to trade him because of what they gave up to get him, as his contract runs down, they lose a bunch of games, then salary dump him in 4 years

 

[OurF'ingCity]

It’s kind of fascinating how no one good seems to go to free agency anymore (that’s a slight exaggeration but it does seem to be the exception rather than the rule now).

 

[mcpickl]

Why?

Because, I think pretty much everybody thought he'd get much more if he waited til next summer.

This was the max Atlanta could offer him right now. It's 4/111 with 8.4M in incentives.

If he waited til the summer, his max with other teams would be around 4/193.

With Atlanta it would be around 4/200 or 5/260

I'm not saying he would've definitely gotten the max, but unless he had a Hayward type injury he surely would've gotten a lot more.

I wouldn't be surprised if Atlanta offered this fully expecting him to turn it down.

 

[BigMike]

It’s kind of fascinating how no one good seems to go to free agency anymore (that’s a slight exaggeration but it does seem to be the exception rather than the rule now).

It's generally how they have set up the rules. Especially with stars where their own team has all the benefits to sign. And with deals like Murray.

Maybe Murray could have gotten more, but 120 million should mean his family is set for 5-10 generations. And maybe he could have gotten more next summer, but awkward fall on a slippery spot on the court, and that deal could be gone forever

 

[Euclis20]

It's generally how they have set up the rules. Especially with stars where their own team has all the benefits to sign. And with deals like Murray.

Maybe Murray could have gotten more, but 120 million should mean his family is set for 5-10 generations. And maybe he could have gotten more next summer, but awkward fall on a slippery spot on the court, and that deal could be gone forever

This is true, but it's generally not how we've seen players operate. Other than his ACL injury in 2019 he's been one of the more durable players in the league (10th in total minutes this year, and 33rd and 31st the two years prior). Even an awkward fall is pretty unlikely to kill his value (shaun Livingston-style injuries are pretty rare). The more I think about this the stranger it gets, but hey good for him and ATL.

 

[Cellar-Door]

View: https://twitter.com/wojespn/status/1677123059994570754


Suns trading Isaiah Todd and two 1st round swaps (2024 and 2030) to MEM for three 2nds (MEM 2028, 2029 and NOP 2025)

Note: WAS already owns those swaps, so WAS gets the highest pick, MEM gets 2nd highest, PHX gets the worst of the 3.

 

[InstaFace]

View: https://twitter.com/KDTrey5/status/1676969420395249668

 

[djbayko]

View: https://twitter.com/KDTrey5/status/1676969420395249668

I can't stand the guy, but this is funny.

 

[128]

View: https://twitter.com/wojespn/status/1677153359466201089


View: https://twitter.com/Behavioristt/status/1674054769143341058

 

[Pablo's TB Lover]

View: https://twitter.com/Behavioristt/status/1674054769143341058

I think Morey was always a "good not great" GM. Harden and D'Antoni catapulted his teams, and credit to Daryl for making these decisions leading to winning seasons in Houston. When it came to the supporting cast, he didn't seem to find many diamonds in the rough and was mostly plugging in X star sidekick to play with Harden such as any other higher profile franchise like the Lakers do. Dwight Howard, Chris Paul (should have worked if not for injury), Russ Westbrook, etc. Maybe it is a bit of chicken and egg argument with the ball-dominant Harden not attracting many players to play alongside. Since Morey entered the head GM spot in 2007, the skill level of front offices in cap management, swinging S&Ts, 3 and 4-team deals, etc. has increased. He's no longer smarter than most of the other executives he's dealing with. Hell, Danny Ainge and Brad Stevens are now with 2 different organizations and butting heads with Daryl for FA acquisitions.

 

[ifmanis5]

Still can't believe he'll be on the same team as Steph.
View: https://twitter.com/TheNBACentral/status/1677307539556368384

 

[Sam Ray Not]

Yeah baby! Let’s goooooooooo

View: https://twitter.com/wojespn/status/1677652379863269379

 

[Cellar-Door]

View: https://twitter.com/wojespn/status/1677701300438331393?t=lmbsINRdwIXTsuuVvuVMtg&s=19


Jazz sign Paul Reed to an offer sheet, PHI has until end of the day tomorrow to match.

The poison pill.... 2 years that guarantee if his team makes the 2nd round

 

[wade boggs chicken dinner]

View: https://twitter.com/wojespn/status/1677701300438331393?t=lmbsINRdwIXTsuuVvuVMtg&s=19


Jazz sign Paul Reed to an offer sheet, PHI has until end of the day tomorrow to match.

The poison pill.... 2 years that guarantee if his team makes the 2nd round

I guess after PHI signing Bamba and re-signing Harrell, Reed just wanted out.

 

[128]

I guess after PHI signing Bamba and re-signing Harrell, Reed just wanted out.

Sixers can still match, right?

 

[Cellar-Door]

I guess after PHI signing Bamba and re-signing Harrell, Reed just wanted out.

He wanted to get paid either it's good money and more playing time for 1 year in UTA or 3 years at good money in PHI

 

[128]

View: https://twitter.com/NBA_NewYork/status/1677707494649475073