General Offseason Thread.

[ManicCompression]

No you're right.. basketball is too fast to ref and can only be done by the most absolutely elite officials ever...

I listened to an interview with Tom Haberstroh, who's writing a book on NBA refs, and learned some fascinating info about them.

- Four NBA refs (including Tim Donaghy!) went to the same high school - Cardinal O'hara in Philly
- Most NBA refs come out of the Ohio Valley Conference for some reason wink wink. Not the SEC or ACC or Big East - the most fertile reffing ground you can find is a Murray State vs. Eastern Kentucky game
- Tony Brothers, who Spencer Dinwiddie said called him a little bitch, has not reffed a Spencer Dinwiddie game since, which is basically statistically impossible (that's just a fun fact that shows how the league puts its thumb on the scales)
- Adam Silver has said it's very important for the league to have 50% female refs, yet not a single female ref has appeared in the playoffs in any season. This highlights, once again, the old boys network NBA refs have created (and also how Silver is an empty suit/PR weathervane)

So I agree with your sarcastic comment above. These refs are not the best of the best. They are a part of a tight-knit fraternity that chokes excellence out of the profession in favor of who knows who.

That's not to say the job of reffing isn't very hard. It is. But much like any other profession, it would be nice if these guys had less job security, were measured by the league on their performance, and if the league gave more opportunities to fresh faces (even the ones who are already reffing regular season games).

 

[wade boggs chicken dinner]

- Adam Silver has said it's very important for the league to have 50% female refs, yet not a single female ref has appeared in the playoffs in any season. This highlights, once again, the old boys network NBA refs have created (and also how Silver is an empty suit/PR weathervane)

Thanks for sharing.

Yeah, I thought it was somewhat noticeable last year when the NBA had 6 female refs (I think) not to have any female refs in the playoffs. They had 8 last year and it was even more noticeable to me. Particularly when (for example) Lauren Holtkamp-Sterling has been in the league for 11 years.

 

[ifmanis5]

Harden still really wants to go to the Clippers.
View: https://twitter.com/TheNBACentral/status/1679519314158977024

James Harden still wants out of Philadelphia and is ‘determined’ to end up with the Clippers, per @sam_amick “Harden’s stance has not changed, a source close to him told The Athletic. He still wants to leave Philadelphia. He’s still upset with how Morey handled his situation… Show more

 

[Cellar-Door]

Harden is the rare guy that (even if I dislike him) I feel like it's fine in this situation to be a total asshole to force a move to his preferred team. He took a massive discount in $ and years to accomodate Hinkie and they screwed him.

 

[DeJesus Built My Hotrod]

I listened to an interview with Tom Haberstroh, who's writing a book on NBA refs, and learned some fascinating info about them.

- Four NBA refs (including Tim Donaghy!) went to the same high school - Cardinal O'hara in Philly
- Most NBA refs come out of the Ohio Valley Conference for some reason wink wink. Not the SEC or ACC or Big East - the most fertile reffing ground you can find is a Murray State vs. Eastern Kentucky game
- Tony Brothers, who Spencer Dinwiddie said called him a little bitch, has not reffed a Spencer Dinwiddie game since, which is basically statistically impossible (that's just a fun fact that shows how the league puts its thumb on the scales)
- Adam Silver has said it's very important for the league to have 50% female refs, yet not a single female ref has appeared in the playoffs in any season. This highlights, once again, the old boys network NBA refs have created (and also how Silver is an empty suit/PR weathervane)

So I agree with your sarcastic comment above. These refs are not the best of the best. They are a part of a tight-knit fraternity that chokes excellence out of the profession in favor of who knows who.

That's not to say the job of reffing isn't very hard. It is. But much like any other profession, it would be nice if these guys had less job security, were measured by the league on their performance, and if the league gave more opportunities to fresh faces (even the ones who are already reffing regular season games).

These criticisms are all fair though I think Silver is above most of his peers in terms of trying to positively tweak the fan experience - I am fully aware that many others here share your view of him of course.

Where Silver and Stern before him do seem to fall down is on some of the officiating stuff. However them sticking with a cronyism structure is a deliberate choice by the league - and they don't seem to see it impacting the sport negatively while many of us clearly disagree - so it feels kind of futile to let it upset me too much.

This is part of the product and its not likely to change anytime soon unless something like economics or social pressures (more female refs) compel a shift. Maybe that's wrong but I find that perspective allows me to see through a lot of the otherwise maddening officiating misses.

 

[Euclis20]

Harden is the rare guy that (even if I dislike him) I feel like it's fine in this situation to be a total asshole to force a move to his preferred team. He took a massive discount in $ and years to accomodate Hinkie and they screwed him.

I don't care so much about him taking the massive discount in a wink wink sort of deal, but there are a couple of easy ways that this is different from Lillard trying to force his way to Miami (not that you made the comparison, but it's an obvious one given current circumstances):

-Harden is just signed for one more year, compared with 3-4 for Lillard. This gives Harden more leverage, because no matter what he knows he can still play (as an effective player) for another team even if he has to wait out the whole year. There's still a scenario out there in which Portland says there's just no deal, and they try to make peace with Lillard and keep him for the remainder of his contract.
-Harden has already shown (in 2020 with Houston) that he's willing to either sit out games or sabotage the team if he's in a place he doesn't want to be. I don't think anyone actually believes that Lillard would do the same.
-Philly needs to be a good team this year, and they need to keep Embiid happy (would it shock anyone if Joel is asking for a trade 12 months from now after another early disappointing playoff exit?). The longer they wait, the worse off they are. Portland just has less urgency - they don't want or need to win games this year, and while they'd love to get started on the Scoot rebuild sooner rather than later, they've likely got 7-8 years to make it work with him. They can afford to be patient in a way that Philly just can't.

 

[lexrageorge]

I assume the league is somewhat constrained here by the CBA between it and its officials. Same applies to the other major sports leagues as well, albeit to varying extents. And the owners would have to get behind a major reform.

The lack of women officials in the playoffs has a chance to become an embarrassment if it continues.

 

[InstaFace]

NBA refs are the best in the business. If they are bad, it is because of how hard the game is to officiate

Nobody who has read even a little bit about how NBA refs are selected and promoted from the lesser ranks, the training they're given, or how they as a group are managed (i.e., like a frat), would argue that they are the best in the business. They're better than casual fans give them credit for, sure, and some of them are really really good even if they get crap from casual fans (e.g. Scott Foster). But it is not a well-optimized group of elite refs doing the pro ranks, just people who've played the politics right to get into the club. I'm thinking of one article from a few years ago that was basically an exposé on this, but can't immediately locate it - if anyone else has seen a sort of "inside the NBA refs' club" long-form article, please post. Or make a whole thread about it, it's a totally worthy topic.

Now, I happen to agree that even if we had the best basketball refs in the business all gathered in the NBA, they would still be a distraction and frustration because of how hard the game is to officiate when you've got athletes this fast and strong. It's going to remain the farthest-from-perfect of any major sport, them's the breaks. But we are also a long way away from that scenario. Baseball has, generally, moved more and more every year towards having the best refs kept and the worst ones ushered gently out the door. Bad calls have gone down, manager tantrums have gone way down, and with robot ball/strike calls, they may go much farther down. But that's much closer to the ideal you think we're at right now in the NBA, where the residual issues in MLB are judgment calls and stuff that no human could possibly get right more than like 70% of the time.

 

[snowmanny]

- Most NBA refs come out of the Ohio Valley Conference for some reason wink wink.

What am I missing? Does the wink wink imply that there is a reason but it's over my head?

Good stuff in that post, thanks.

 

[InstaFace]

What am I missing? Does the wink wink imply that there is a reason but it's over my head?

Good stuff in that post, thanks.

I think he's implying the same promote-your-friends lack of meritocracy that I remember reading about.

...which I still haven't found, but here are some stats on refs from an academic article about them by a UNC professor of finance.

edit: and a 538 article on the data the NBA uses to grade their refs. Man, we should have a thread about this stuff.

edit2: Silver has said he listens a lot to both sides about officiating and has made a bunch of changes to training.

edit3: this 2018 article talks about how refs are "using psychology" to anticipate players' innovations in trying to push boundaries.

edit4: the NBA apparently has referee scouts. but dammit, I still haven't found what I'm looking for.

 

[HomeRunBaker]

Nobody who has read even a little bit about how NBA refs are selected and promoted from the lesser ranks, the training they're given, or how they as a group are managed (i.e., like a frat), would argue that they are the best in the business. They're better than casual fans give them credit for, sure, and some of them are really really good even if they get crap from casual fans (e.g. Scott Foster). But it is not a well-optimized group of elite refs doing the pro ranks, just people who've played the politics right to get into the club. I'm thinking of one article from a few years ago that was basically an exposé on this, but can't immediately locate it - if anyone else has seen a sort of "inside the NBA refs' club" long-form article, please post. Or make a whole thread about it, it's a totally worthy topic.

Now, I happen to agree that even if we had the best basketball refs in the business all gathered in the NBA, they would still be a distraction and frustration because of how hard the game is to officiate when you've got athletes this fast and strong. It's going to remain the farthest-from-perfect of any major sport, them's the breaks. But we are also a long way away from that scenario. Baseball has, generally, moved more and more every year towards having the best refs kept and the worst ones ushered gently out the door. Bad calls have gone down, manager tantrums have gone way down, and with robot ball/strike calls, they may go much farther down. But that's much closer to the ideal you think we're at right now in the NBA, where the residual issues in MLB are judgment calls and stuff that no human could possibly get right more than like 70% of the time.

Isn't that the case for any job promotion in any industry? This selection process that includes "who you know" doesn't appear any different than the majority of other companies in other industries. I don't follow officials a whole lot but is there currently a woman who is the lead of her crew? Until that begins occurring, whether it be on merit or other ways, we won't likely see a lot of women officiating deep into the playoffs.

 

[wade boggs chicken dinner]

-Philly needs to be a good team this year, and they need to keep Embiid happy (would it shock anyone if Joel is asking for a trade 12 months from now after another early disappointing playoff exit?). The longer they wait, the worse off they are.

I'm not the first to mention this but year, how much longer does Embiid put up with all of the shenanigans? First there was the Butler drama, then Simmons, and now Harden?

I know PHI is trying to open up cap space for next year (the Paul Reed contract has to sting!) but will Embiid be okay wasting another year in his prime because they aren't getting anyone close to Harden?

The NYK are sure watching closely.

Harden is the rare guy that (even if I dislike him) I feel like it's fine in this situation to be a total asshole to force a move to his preferred team. He took a massive discount in $ and years to accomodate Hinkie and they screwed him.

Hinkie - now there's a blast from the past!

 

[the moops]

I think he's implying the same promote-your-friends lack of meritocracy that I remember reading about.

...which I still haven't found, but here are some stats on refs from an academic article about them by a UNC professor of finance.

edit: and a 538 article on the data the NBA uses to grade their refs. Man, we should have a thread about this stuff.

edit2: Silver has said he listens a lot to both sides about officiating and has made a bunch of changes to training.

edit3: this 2018 article talks about how refs are "using psychology" to anticipate players' innovations in trying to push boundaries.

edit4: the NBA apparently has referee scouts.

Obviously Haberstroh has investigated this way more than the 5 minutes I just spent, but it looks like most refs had stints at multiple conferences before they went to the NBA. Many of these guys have Ohio Valley and SEC and ACC and others. https://697f6f9668a0bb24cd4b-78390edf330c094418f39edbaa9073b0.ssl.cf1.rackcdn.com/2022/10/2022-23-NBA-Officials-Guide-min.pdf

 

[Swedgin]

Isn't that the case for any job promotion in any industry? This selection process that includes "who you know" doesn't appear any different than the majority of other companies in other industries. I don't follow officials a whole lot but is there currently a woman who is the lead of her crew? Until that begins occurring, whether it be on merit or other ways, we won't likely see a lot of women officiating deep into the playoffs.

If a majority of them are actually coming out of the Ohio Valley Conference, that is atypical for the positions at the pinnacle of profession at least in the industries, with which I have some familiarity.

The entry level positions at the most prestigious gigs in the law, medicine, tech, finance etc go primarily to people coming from institutions that are seen (rightly or wrongly) as elite. Maybe reffing in the Ohio Valley conference is the most sought after reffing gig in college basketball (not out of the realm of possibility if it is now known as the path to the NBA), but it is hardly a normal or expected outcome.

 

[HomeRunBaker]

If a majority of them are actually coming out of the Ohio Valley Conference, that is atypical for the positions at the pinnacle of profession at least in the industries, with which I have some familiarity.

The entry level positions at the most prestigious gigs in the law, medicine, tech, finance etc go primarily to people coming from institutions that are seen (rightly or wrongly) as elite. Maybe reffing in the Ohio Valley conference is the most sought after reffing gig in college basketball (not out of the realm of possibility if it is now known as the path to the NBA), but it is hardly a normal or expected outcome.

First of all, while that may have occurred in the past that isn't where they are coming out of now. Today, the NBA has a "minor league" for their refs with the G-League and WNBA serving as springboards. Can anyone show where "most of the refs come from the Ohio Valley Conference?" The 4 calls ups this summer ALL came from the feeder system and from all accounts were based on merit.

 

[Jimbodandy]

These criticisms are all fair though I think Silver is above most of his peers in terms of trying to positively tweak the fan experience - I am fully aware that many others here share your view of him of course.

Where Silver and Stern before him do seem to fall down is on some of the officiating stuff. However them sticking with a cronyism structure is a deliberate choice by the league - and they don't seem to see it impacting the sport negatively while many of us clearly disagree - so it feels kind of futile to let it upset me too much.

This is part of the product and its not likely to change anytime soon unless something like economics or social pressures (more female refs) compel a shift. Maybe that's wrong but I find that perspective allows me to see through a lot of the otherwise maddening officiating misses.

Silver is the best commissioner in all of our lifetimes in any N/A Sport. He does a fantastic job, including with the officiating.

Obviously Haberstroh has investigated this way more than the 5 minutes I just spent, but it looks like most refs had stints at multiple conferences before they went to the NBA. Many of these guys have Ohio Valley and SEC and ACC and others. https://697f6f9668a0bb24cd4b-78390edf330c094418f39edbaa9073b0.ssl.cf1.rackcdn.com/2022/10/2022-23-NBA-Officials-Guide-min.pdf

Yeah, the refs are fantastic too. Some are worse than others. Some have weird egos or like to be on TV or be contrarians, and they're still damn good. Most refs being older is a by-product of being older making you really good at the job.

That's not to say that there aren't things that can be fixed. But NBA refs aren't really a problem.

 

[joe dokes]

I would love to see this flopping call used for the increasingly popular “snapping your head back like you were shot” while driving to the basket or on mild contact coming around a sceeen. Trae young is one of many who does this far too often.

I'd like to add "screaming like a tennis player giving birth" on every drive to the list of punishable acts.

 

[ManicCompression]

What am I missing? Does the wink wink imply that there is a reason but it's over my head?

Good stuff in that post, thanks.

Sorry, yes, the implication is that merit doesn't play into as much as networking, which doesn't make sense for such a public job that can audited pretty easily.

And @HomeRunBaker it may be that new refs are coming through the G league, but the old guard - Scott Foster, Marc Davis, Ed Malloy, etc. - are incredibly entrenched and they choke off opportunity from everyone else. We've seen the same 10-12 guys in the finals for the last 20 years and it's just hard to believe that NBA players come and go in and out of their prime while refs can be effective for 40 straight years. I don't think we as an audience would care if the person fucking up calls weren't so familiar from earlier years.

 

[Euclis20]

I'm not the first to mention this but year, how much longer does Embiid put up with all of the shenanigans? First there was the Butler drama, then Simmons, and now Harden?

I know PHI is trying to open up cap space for next year (the Paul Reed contract has to sting!) but will Embiid be okay wasting another year in his prime because they aren't getting anyone close to Harden?

The NYK are sure watching closely.


Hinkie - now there's a blast from the past!

Opening up cap space doesn't mean the same as it once did, since players are simply re-signing for more money then asking to be traded later. There are 3 very solid looking max FAs next summer, but for various reasons they won't end up in Philly:

-Anthony Davis. Likely to re-sign with the Lakers, and even if he doesn't I don't see how he fits next to Embiid.
-Jaylen Brown. Likely to re-sign with the Celtics, but he's a pretty good fit otherwise.
-Pascal Siakam. Does Philly really want their #2 to be a lousy 3 point shooter?

Then there are a bunch of players who might get max level deals but even if they become available, come with major flags:

-Kawhi Leonard
-Paul George
-James Harden (hah)
-Jrue Holiday
-Demar Derozan
-OG Anounoby
-Klay Thompson

Any of these guys worth a max deal, especially considering it's likely to be Philly's last chance to give Embiid an all-star level running mate? Unless Maxey becomes an all-NBA level guard, Philly is in a tight spot.

 

[HomeRunBaker]

Sorry, yes, the implication is that merit doesn't play into as much as networking, which doesn't make sense for such a public job that can audited pretty easily.

And @HomeRunBaker it may be that new refs are coming through the G league, but the old guard - Scott Foster, Marc Davis, Ed Malloy, etc. - are incredibly entrenched and they choke off opportunity from everyone else. We've seen the same 10-12 guys in the finals for the last 20 years and it's just hard to believe that NBA players come and go in and out of their prime while refs can be effective for 40 straight years. I don't think we as an audience would care if the person fucking up calls weren't so familiar from earlier years.

Ok this makes sense now. It seems that developing a true minor league both for players AND officials complete with merit system for promotion and postseason assignments has Adam Silver's footprint all over it.

 

[The_Powa_of_Seiji_Ozawa]

Harden still really wants to go to the Clippers.

When I was growing up, I never imagined I'd ever hear the phrase "*Star Player* wants to go to the Clippers."

 

[ifmanis5]

When I was growing up, I never imagined I'd ever hear the phrase "*Star Player* wants to go to the Clippers."

Yes and to play with two players who are hurt a lot.

 

[HomeRunBaker]

When I was growing up, I never imagined I'd ever hear the phrase "*Star Player* wants to go to the Clippers."

Completely forgot that before relocating from San Diego this was the Buffalo Braves franchise.

 

[wade boggs chicken dinner]

Opening up cap space doesn't mean the same as it once did, since players are simply re-signing for more money then asking to be traded later. There are 3 very solid looking max FAs next summer, but for various reasons they won't end up in Philly:

-Anthony Davis. Likely to re-sign with the Lakers, and even if he doesn't I don't see how he fits next to Embiid.
-Jaylen Brown. Likely to re-sign with the Celtics, but he's a pretty good fit otherwise.
-Pascal Siakam. Does Philly really want their #2 to be a lousy 3 point shooter?

Then there are a bunch of players who might get max level deals but even if they become available, come with major flags:

-Kawhi Leonard
-Paul George
-James Harden (hah)
-Jrue Holiday
-Demar Derozan
-OG Anounoby
-Klay Thompson

Any of these guys worth a max deal, especially considering it's likely to be Philly's last chance to give Embiid an all-star level running mate? Unless Maxey becomes an all-NBA level guard, Philly is in a tight spot.

Oh definitely agree with you that PHI is in a tough spot and assuming that Harden doesn't play this year, they're not going anywhere and with likely very few avenues to improve.

But that gets back to the original question - how long is Embiid going to put up with this?

 

[scottyno]

First of all, while that may have occurred in the past that isn't where they are coming out of now. Today, the NBA has a "minor league" for their refs with the G-League and WNBA serving as springboards. Can anyone show where "most of the refs come from the Ohio Valley Conference?" The 4 calls ups this summer ALL came from the feeder system and from all accounts were based on merit.

As someone who works wnba, g league, and college games from the scorers table, most refs in those leagues are pretty brutal btw

 

[HomeRunBaker]

As someone who works wnba, g league, and college games from the scorers table, most refs in those leagues are pretty brutal btw

I've been telling everyone this every time people criticize the NBA refs. 99% of fans don't realize how good we have it.

It's as if there is this secret place where NBA-ready officials are hibernating waiting for the good ole boy network to let them in. That place doesn't exist....those in leagues beneath the NBA would all look like Dee Kantner or one of the other women that they force fed into the league until it was painfully obvious they were in over their heads.

 

[InstaFace]

Completely forgot that before relocating from San Diego this was the Buffalo Braves franchise.

Is Bob McAdoo's number retired?

 

[bosockboy]

Is Bob McAdoo's number retired?

Or Ernie DiGregorio.

 

[BrandyWhine]

Or Ernie DiGregorio.

Yes to "Ernie D" and can I get a second for Gar Heard?

 

[128]

As someone who works wnba, g league, and college games from the scorers table, most refs in those leagues are pretty brutal btw

There are no refs worse than those who work women's college games.

 

[wade boggs chicken dinner]

Yes to "Ernie D" and can I get a second for Gar Heard?

Randy Smith. I went to his basketball camp.

 

[ElUno20]

When I was growing up, I never imagined I'd ever hear the phrase "*Star Player* wants to go to the Clippers."

Harden is far from a star player plus he's from here. LA specifically, not even far out like Kawhi or PG, so of course he wants to be here.

 

[HomeRunBaker]

Randy Smith. I went to his basketball camp.

I've actually met 3 guys from that '75 team. Grew up a mile from Ernie D, Randy Smith when he worked at Mohegan Sun and Bob Kaufman who is from my alma mater in NC, Guilford College. Ernie is the only one still living which one could say is a surprise in itself.

 

[HomeRunBaker]

Harden is far from a star player plus he's from here. LA specifically, not even far out like Kawhi or PG, so of course he wants to be here.

Guy is a 10x All-Star who put up 21/10/6 last year. That is far from a star player?

 

[Euclis20]

Guy is a 10x All-Star who put up 21/10/6 last year. That is far from a star player?

Yeah he would've been an all-star last year if he hadn't missed a full month in the fall.

 

[bankshot1]

Completely forgot that before relocating from San Diego this was the Buffalo Braves franchise.

Actually for some convoluted legal reasons, the Buffalo Braves became the Boston Celtics and the Celts the Braves. And the teams then swapped personel. Irv Levin, the owner of the team in Boston moved them post transfer to San Diego and some fried chicken shit guy owned the team in Boston, that legally was birthed in Buffalo. It was dark times. Red almost quit in disgust.

 

[lexrageorge]

Guy is a 10x All-Star who put up 21/10/6 last year. That is far from a star player?

Harden's All-NBA days are likely over. He's still good, and is still a threat to pour in points, but let's not pretend he is still the Harden of 5 years ago. Now, if Kawhi and PG were to actually remain healthy, his addition does make the Clippers a potent threat in the Western Conference. Problem is that "if" is doing a ton of lifting in that sentence.

 

[HomeRunBaker]

Harden's All-NBA days are likely over. He's still good, and is still a threat to pour in points, but let's not pretend he is still the Harden of 5 years ago. Now, if Kawhi and PG were to actually remain healthy, his addition does make the Clippers a potent threat in the Western Conference. Problem is that "if" is doing a ton of lifting in that sentence.

You don't have to be All-NBA to be considered a star player and nobody is pretending he is what he used to be. I stand by my position and pretty much everyone in the league considers him a star player and he'll keep getting paid like one as long as he produces as he is.

 

[Cellar-Door]

Harden is definitely still a star, and I wouldn't bet on his All-NBA days being over now that it's positionless (though adding 65 games makes it tougher for him). He probably makes it last year if it was positionless. Maybe enough people ding him for only playing 58 last year, but Lebron made it at 55, and Sabonis and Jaylen Brown didn't have clearly better years than Harden

 

[scottyno]

There are no refs worse than those who works women's college games.

Yup, and it gets even worse when you see the ones that work d2 and d3 women's college games

 

[ElUno20]

Guy is a 10x All-Star who put up 21/10/6 last year. That is far from a star player?

He'll always be really good because he's an all timer. He's falling from such a high place. But he's no longer upper echelon elite at all.

Let's play this out. Kawhi and/or PG get hurt in the first round, Harden+role players winning a playoff series?

 

[ElUno20]

You don't have to be All-NBA to be considered a star player and nobody is pretending he is what he used to be. I stand by my position and pretty much everyone in the league considers him a star player and he'll keep getting paid like one as long as he produces as he is.

I'm all out of moral victories and "what if we were healthy" banners. Harden will be great in the regular season but unless kawhi and pg are healthy, he isnt putting them over the top.

He still shit his pants, again, when the sixers needed him in the playoffs.

 

[benhogan]

You don't have to be All-NBA to be considered a star player and nobody is pretending he is what he used to be. I stand by my position and pretty much everyone in the league considers him a star player and he'll keep getting paid like one as long as he produces as he is.

His agents' phone didn't exactly ring off the hook when he could have opted for UFA?

And it wasn't for a lack of trying by his agency, since they worked WOJ/SHAMS all season long with the Houston rumors.

Houston considered FVV as a better option & paid him much more than James will ever see again

Harden is aging quickly & probably isn't even considered a TOP 15 PG anymore pay-wise.
(I had Harden roughly ranked around 11 at PG a few months ago )

 

[the moops]

Fun little game here

https://www.basketballgrid.com/

 

[Cellar-Door]

Fun little game here

https://www.basketballgrid.com/

Pretty sure that's a knock-off of https://www.hoopgrids.com/

Hoopsgrid is probably better since it tells you what percent of people picked your guy and the goal is to have the lowest percent score across the 9.

 

[Light-Tower-Power]

https://dribblegame.com/ is pretty fun too.

 

[BigMike]

He'll always be really good because he's an all timer. He's falling from such a high place. But he's no longer upper echelon elite at all.

Let's play this out. Kawhi and/or PG get hurt in the first round, Harden+role players winning a playoff series?

In the west, No one is winning a postseason series missing an elite piece. Even Denver would be in trouble if one of their 3 best players missed a series. West is going to be brutal this year

 

[benhogan]

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHEPo0KNxno

 

[bosockboy]

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHEPo0KNxno

Good info, but at the same time took a once in a decade shooting performance on 3’s.

 

[HomeRunBaker]

His agents' phone didn't exactly ring off the hook when he could have opted for UFA?

And it wasn't for a lack of trying by his agency, since they worked WOJ/SHAMS all season long with the Houston rumors.

Houston considered FVV as a better option & paid him much more than James will ever see again

Harden is aging quickly & probably isn't even considered a TOP 15 PG anymore pay-wise.
(I had Harden roughly ranked around 11 at PG a few months ago )

I'd be interested in hearing your 8 thru 15 if Harden doesn't make your list. Prior to his injury last year he was having one of his best all around seasons.