Green Zinger Tea - Kristaps Porziņģis 2023-24

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The trade thread is covering old news, and it's a new season. The man is going to deserve his own thread. Already does, imo.

From the G1 thread:

I didn’t LOVE the trade but it’s undeniable now. He provides a different dimension than Smart and is something the Celtics (and most teams) don’t have.

The pick and pop game with the Jays, he can post up. He’s going to be a weapon
Porzingis has an incredible economy of movement. It helps to be 13 feet tall of course but it’s kind of like how Al would be of he were 13 feet tall. Keeps his feet, measures the shot, times his jump, makes the block, never even close to a foul.

And on the other end his size alone makes him extremely difficult NOT to foul. You have to body him and make him shoot over you but obviously that takes a lot of beef and some patience.
Both great points. And it makes me wonder, how many Centers (nevermind seven-footers) do you have to guard at the perimeter in the league? Like even leaving aside his defense and what being 7'3" rather than 6'10" means for your wingspan and rim protection, how much does him being "an objectively great 3-point shooter", regardless of position, matter?

Name (Team), Height - 3PA / game - 3PT% (both over last 3 seasons)
Jaylin Williams (OKC), 6'10 - 2.3 - 40.7% (* just 1 season)
Mike Muscala (WAS), 6'10 - 3.9 - 39.5%
Al Horford (BOS), 6'9 - 4.6 - 39.2%
Christian Wood (LAL), 6'10 - 4.6 - 38.1%
Mo Bamba (LAL), 7'0 - 3.2 - 36.9%
Nicola Jokic (DEN), 6'11 - 3.1 - 36.7%
Kristaps Porzingis (BOS), 7'3 - 5.5 - 36.2%
Jonas Valanciunas (NOP), 6'11 - 1.5 - 36.0%
Zach Collins (SAS), 6'11 - 2.1 - 35.9% (* only 92G / 31GS)
Nikola Vucevic (CHI), 6'10 - 5.0 - 35.8%
Brook Lopez (MIL), 7'0 - 4.3 - 35.8%
Kelly Olynyk (UTA), 6'11 - 4.0 - 35.8%
Joel Embiid (PHI), 7'0 - 3.3 - 35.3%
Myles Turner (IND), 6'11 - 4.2 - 34.8%
Naz Reid (MIN), 6'9 - 2.6 - 34.5%
Jusuf Nurkic (PHO), 6'11 - 1.4 - 34.3%
Wendell Carter (ORL), 6'10 - 2.8 - 33.5%
Isaiah Stewart (DET), 6'8 - 1.7 - 33.1%
Jaren Jackson Jr (MEM), 6'11 - 4.9 - 32.8%
Moritz Wagner (ORL), 6'11 - 2.7 - 32.5%
Precious Achiuwa (TOR), 6'8 - 1.4 - 32.0%
Jalen Smith (IND), 6'10 - 2.3 - 30.1%

That's just about the list of every center who takes >1 3-pointer per game. For reference, Lillard takes 10.7, Klay 9.1, Tatum 8.5. Some of these guys are hurt all the time, or are forwards masquerading as centers (hi Muscala!). Some of them kinda suck at making the shots. And the ones who don't, really aren't putting up much volume. Nobody on that list takes more per game than KP (5.5), frankly only Vucevic and JJJ come close, and he makes a higher % than all but a handful. So you can argue that he pulls his defender out of the paint more than any other center in the league. It's a serious weapon, and one I kinda discounted when I thought about acquiring him given his size.
 

Eddie Jurak

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The offense was as expected. His defense was a revelation. He was a difference makrer at both ends last night.
 

Auger34

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I really like and appreciate that Porzingis seems to recognize what a great situation he is in and how he can impact the game without forcing anything.

The JAYs command so much attention and defenses are so afraid of them getting into the lane that Porzingis is going to feast on wide open 3's and post-ups against smaller people.

The broadcast referenced multiple times just how happy he looked throughout the game. Health permitting, it looks like Brad hit a grand slam (and I was ambivalent on the trade at first)
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Both great points. And it makes me wonder, how many Centers (nevermind seven-footers) do you have to guard at the perimeter in the league? Like even leaving aside his defense and what being 7'3" rather than 6'10" means for your wingspan and rim protection, how much does him being "an objectively great 3-point shooter", regardless of position, matter?
It's not just that guys like Horford and Muscala can make a 3P. KP shoots like a guard shoots. Horford and Lopez and a lot of other Cs have slower releases so defenders can lay back and close out and dare them to make it.

Not KP. Defenders have to honestly play up to what, 25 feet? It's amazing how much space that creates for the other Cs.

But perhaps almost as important as the spacing (and I mentioned in the game thread) - when the Cs offense bogs down in the 4th Quarter, the fact that he can create fouls and get to the line will be super important in stopping those droughts we're all familiar with. Last night was a great example - KP went to the line, what 4 times down the stretch to hold of NYK. Those easy points will be instrumental in getting the Cs where they are going.
 

BigSoxFan

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I really like and appreciate that Porzingis seems to recognize what a great situation he is in and how he can impact the game without forcing anything.

The JAYs command so much attention and defenses are so afraid of them getting into the lane that Porzingis is going to feast on wide open 3's and post-ups against smaller people.

The broadcast referenced multiple times just how happy he looked throughout the game. Health permitting, it looks like Brad hit a grand slam (and I was ambivalent on the trade at first)
What I was most amazed about was how effortlessly he was drilling those 3’s. Dude looked like a 7’3 Curry out there last night. Such a huge advantage to have.
 

lovegtm

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KP got kind of exposed by Bam's quickness. As crazy as it is to say it, I might have liked to see Jaylen on Bam more, with help waiting behind.
 

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KP got kind of exposed by Bam's quickness. As crazy as it is to say it, I might have liked to see Jaylen on Bam more, with help waiting behind.
All I ever see of Bam is him having his way with Celtic defenders, big (KP) or small (Smart). And the numbers are there for him. But somehow he's never the playoff difference maker I expect him to be. Or, rather, he is that difference maker in one game and then he's nowhere to be found for a game or two. I'm not sure what I'm missing with him.
 

lovegtm

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All I ever see of Bam is him having his way with Celtic defenders, big (KP) or small (Smart). And the numbers are there for him. But somehow he's never the playoff difference maker I expect him to be. Or, rather, he is that difference maker in one game and then he's nowhere to be found for a game or two. I'm not sure what I'm missing with him.
He is overly dependent on his mid-ranger, but, unfortunately for him it's not elite. So when it's falling, as it was yesterday, he looks awesome. Then it regresses to ~40% or so, and there's not tons to fall back on.
 

Euclis20

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Bam is one of the few players that will make us really miss Rob Williams. TL absolutely shut him down whenever he was in the came, to the point where Bam wouldn't even bother moving towards the basket whenever he had the ball.

Bam has settled into being a 19-20 ppg scorer so I'm not really worried about him truly killing us, but he will certainly be a lot more comfortable going forward playing Boston.
 

Euclis20

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He is overly dependent on his mid-ranger, but, unfortunately for him it's not elite. So when it's falling, as it was yesterday, he looks awesome. Then it regresses to ~40% or so, and there's not tons to fall back on.
It's really pretty disappointing. Watching him move around with his touch, power and athleticism, he looks like a slightly smaller, weaker version of Giannis but with a decent mid-range shot. His offense basically hasn't improved since the end of the 2020 season.
 

slamminsammya

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It's really pretty disappointing. Watching him move around with his touch, power and athleticism, he looks like a slightly smaller, weaker version of Giannis but with a decent mid-range shot. His offense basically hasn't improved since the end of the 2020 season.
Its hard to grow your game as a big man without developing a three point shot. Post play isn't really such a big thing anymore.
 

lovegtm

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Its hard to grow your game as a big man without developing a three point shot. Post play isn't really such a big thing anymore.
You can do stuff with a post game, but Bam isn't that good in the post. If he had a real post game, he'd command a lot more attention, and his passing would really shine.

Bam is one of the few players that will make us really miss Rob Williams. TL absolutely shut him down whenever he was in the came, to the point where Bam wouldn't even bother moving towards the basket whenever he had the ball.

Bam has settled into being a 19-20 ppg scorer so I'm not really worried about him truly killing us, but he will certainly be a lot more comfortable going forward playing Boston.
I....guess? Last night was his "big game", and his TS% was under 50% with 3 turnovers on 2 assists. He's a great defensive anchor and a nice #3-4 scorer, but I don't think the Celtics will lose much sleep worrying how to defend him.

I don't want to shit on Bam too much: I'd love to have him. But people overreact when a couple of his face-up jumpers go down, or he throws down a lob. He is what he is by now offensively (as you said).
 

Euclis20

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I....guess? Last night was his "big game", and his TS% was under 50% with 3 turnovers on 2 assists. He's a great defensive anchor and a nice #3-4 scorer, but I don't think the Celtics will lose much sleep worrying how to defend him.

I don't want to shit on Bam too much: I'd love to have him. But people overreact when a couple of his face-up jumpers go down, or he throws down a lob. He is what he is by now offensively (as you said).
Yeah I may have not been clear, he's not enough of a scorer that you really have to worry about defending him in particular, just noting that he's gonna look better than the guy that averaged just 13.6 points in the 13 ECF games that timelord played in (and he was 15-22 for 31 points in the one game rob missed).
 

DavidTai

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You can do stuff with a post game, but Bam isn't that good in the post. If he had a real post game, he'd command a lot more attention, and his passing would really shine.


I....guess? Last night was his "big game", and his TS% was under 50% with 3 turnovers on 2 assists. He's a great defensive anchor and a nice #3-4 scorer, but I don't think the Celtics will lose much sleep worrying how to defend him.

I don't want to shit on Bam too much: I'd love to have him. But people overreact when a couple of his face-up jumpers go down, or he throws down a lob. He is what he is by now offensively (as you said).
I'd rather have Bam going off than Butler. Bam is just not the same playmaker Butler is, and if the cost of keeping Butler from making plays for other people is letting Bam go off, I'll take it.
 

lovegtm

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I'd rather have Bam going off than Butler. Bam is just not the same playmaker Butler is, and if the cost of keeping Butler from making plays for other people is letting Bam go off, I'll take it.
And, again, Bam "went off" last night for 49% TS and 2 assists.
 

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luckiestman

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I mentioned it on the game thread so I’ll say it here. I had no idea Porzingis was this good. If he and Tatum figure something out this could be special.
 

MyDaughterLovesTomGordon

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5 Ts in 7 games is kind of nuts. No one else has more than 3.

First suspension at 16, then another one every 2 Ts after that.

I am already annoyed at how ticky-tacky they have been, but if he’s suspended for a big game against the Sixers because he hung on the rim in game 1, I’m going to be salty AF.
 

BaseballJones

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5 Ts in 7 games is kind of nuts. No one else has more than 3.

First suspension at 16, then another one every 2 Ts after that.

I am already annoyed at how ticky-tacky they have been, but if he’s suspended for a big game against the Sixers because he hung on the rim in game 1, I’m going to be salty AF.
When did they start calling the hanging on the rim a T? I mean, back in the day it was always a T, but seems like the last 10 years or more, guys could just go up, dunk, and hang on the rim as they pleased, even if nobody was undercutting them or anything like that. Now all of a sudden they're calling it again?
 

lovegtm

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When did they start calling the hanging on the rim a T? I mean, back in the day it was always a T, but seems like the last 10 years or more, guys could just go up, dunk, and hang on the rim as they pleased, even if nobody was undercutting them or anything like that. Now all of a sudden they're calling it again?
They're supposed to only call it if the guy does chinups on the rim, and they're supposed to let players protect themselves.

That one was egregiously bad, and I wouldn't be shocked if it gets rescinded.
 

HomeRunBaker

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They're supposed to only call it if the guy does chinups on the rim, and they're supposed to let players protect themselves.

That one was egregiously bad, and I wouldn't be shocked if it gets rescinded.
I'd say there is a 98% chance that this one gets rescinded. Maybe higher, it was that egregiously bad a call.
 

lovegtm

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I'd say there is a 98% chance that this one gets rescinded. Maybe higher, it was that egregiously bad a call.
I honestly have no idea what goes through the mind of a ref who decides "that's it, the plague of players hanging on the rim has to stop, and I'm going to be the one to do something about it!"
 

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5 Ts in 7 games is kind of nuts. No one else has more than 3.

First suspension at 16, then another one every 2 Ts after that.

I am already annoyed at how ticky-tacky they have been, but if he’s suspended for a big game against the Sixers because he hung on the rim in game 1, I’m going to be salty AF.
He has a penchant for dumb Ts and dumb fouls.
I'd say there is a 98% chance that this one gets rescinded. Maybe higher, it was that egregiously bad a call.
I think this is right. To my eye, though, the refs seem to be calling more of these kind of Ts for some reason. I think it is stupid and I hope the league gets the word out to stop doing this.
 

NomarsFool

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He seems to have ben getting T'd up pretty quickly. We obviously have no idea what he says, but in none of the circumstances did I get the impression that he was out of control or losing it.
 

NomarsFool

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I honestly have no idea what goes through the mind of a ref who decides "that's it, the plague of players hanging on the rim has to stop, and I'm going to be the one to do something about it!"
We had another one of those recently, maybe it was Tatum or Horford? They've been ridiculous. The one on the Sixers where the player also gesturing at the ref - sure, that's a T. But, as Scal pointed out, if the player is just trying to safely land, it's not supposed to be a technical.
 

sonofgodcf

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I mentioned it on the game thread so I’ll say it here. I had no idea Porzingis was this good. If he and Tatum figure something out this could be special.
I've been really impressed by his motor. There was a play early last night that he went down on the floor on offense - I was expecting the C's to be playing 4 on 5 on D, but he hustled back to make a play. He never loafs back, and he's surprisingly fast.
 

bakahump

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Wait....so they can rescind a T? So did they not shoot a technical FT because of the Rim hang? (and of course what would happen if a game was decided by a made rescinded T Ft)
 

Euclis20

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Wait....so they can rescind a T? So did they not shoot a technical FT because of the Rim hang? (and of course what would happen if a game was decided by a made rescinded T Ft)
There's no giving back the point, but rescinding a tech means the player isn't fined, and it doesn't count towards their total techs for the season (which will matter for KP since he seems determined to get to the 16 needed for a suspension).
 

Light-Tower-Power

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Do hanging on the rim techs count toward the suspension? I thought they were considered non-unsportsmanlike and resulted in a free throw but didn't count toward getting ejected/suspended. Similar to flopping techs. Could be wrong but I always thought that was the case.
 

bakahump

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OK.....so that brings up the next part.

Alt Universe Zinger hangs......gets T'd
Embiid hits Ft.
Boston leads by 1 with 2 seconds to play and Maxey hits a 2 pter to win. (or similar)
AuZinger gets his fine back....but Celts lose on a BS and ADMITTEDLY wrong call?

Wow.
 

Euclis20

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Do hanging on the rim techs count toward the suspension? I thought they were considered non-unsportsmanlike and resulted in a free throw but didn't count toward getting ejected/suspended. Similar to flopping techs. Could be wrong but I always thought that was the case.
I believe all techs count towards the suspension limit, though I'm not 100% positive on that. I know that flopping techs do not count towards the 2 needed to be ejected in a single game.

OK.....so that brings up the next part.

Alt Universe Zinger hangs......gets T'd
Embiid hits Ft.
Boston leads by 1 with 2 seconds to play and Maxey hits a 2 pter to win. (or similar)
AuZinger gets his fine back....but Celts lose on a BS and ADMITTEDLY wrong call?

Wow.
Correct. I don't think this should be a big surprise, the NBA releases a two minute report for select games and is reasonably honest about when a call has been missed. A blown call in a close game in the final two minutes (regardless of what the result is) is definitely more impactful than an incorrectly called technical foul in the 1st half.
 

bakahump

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Has anyone ever gone back through a seasons worth of 2Minute Reports and compiled an Expected Points Screwed Out by the NBA score. And see which NBA teams had the worse EPSONBA Score? I wonder if there is any trends.

Refs vs teams
Particular Teams
Home and Away Bias


Maybe take the expected points per possession and multiply that by the amount of impacted possessions?
 

MyDaughterLovesTomGordon

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From reading the foul rules, it seems like rim-hanging isn't unsportsmanlike, which means two of them doesn't automatically disqualify you, but no distinction is made in terms of accumulated technicals resulting in a suspension.

Also interesting to see, "Cursing or blaspheming an official shall not be considered the only cause for imposing technical foul. Running tirades, continuous criticism or griping may be sufficient cause to assess a technical. Excessive misconduct shall result in ejection from the game."

I feel like I've seen pool reports where officials have said a swear was cause for a technical all by itself, but the rules say not.
 

HomeRunBaker

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From reading the foul rules, it seems like rim-hanging isn't unsportsmanlike, which means two of them doesn't automatically disqualify you, but no distinction is made in terms of accumulated technicals resulting in a suspension.

Also interesting to see, "Cursing or blaspheming an official shall not be considered the only cause for imposing technical foul. Running tirades, continuous criticism or griping may be sufficient cause to assess a technical. Excessive misconduct shall result in ejection from the game."

I feel like I've seen pool reports where officials have said a swear was cause for a technical all by itself, but the rules say not.
That isn't how I interpret that rule. To me it reads that there are other ways to receive a T aside from cursing an official and they name a few.

Unless there was a rule change that I'm not aware of, a T doesn't necessarily have to be unsportsmanlike to count toward the two prior to ejection. Are you implying that if KP hung on the rim to get a second T that he wouldn't be subjected to automatic ejection....because that would be new.
 

Euclis20

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Hanging on the rim should be switched to delay of game. That could still result in a free throw if it's the 2nd of the game, but would never count as a tech towards ejection or suspension. If a player hangs onto the rim long enough that it could actually be considered taunting or unsportsmanlike, give the refs the leeway to call that. I don't think hanging on the rim too long ALWAYS needs to be considered a technical foul.
 

MyDaughterLovesTomGordon

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That isn't how I interpret that rule. To me it reads that there are other ways to receive a T aside from cursing an official and they name a few.

Unless there was a rule change that I'm not aware of, a T doesn't necessarily have to be unsportsmanlike to count toward the two prior to ejection. Are you implying that if KP hung on the rim to get a second T that he wouldn't be subjected to automatic ejection....because that would be new.
Ah. That bolded makes more sense. As in, "cursing will do it, but not just cursing."

As for the second part, I think that's what I'm saying. Maybe I'm reading it wrong again, but they make a distinction between unsportsmanlike and not, and then make clear that your second unsportsmanlike gets you tossed.
 

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That isn't how I interpret that rule. To me it reads that there are other ways to receive a T aside from cursing an official and they name a few.
Ah. That bolded makes more sense. As in, "cursing will do it, but not just cursing."
I think that's right. As I parse it, neither of these can be a defense: 1) "I shouldn't get a T because I never cursed." or 2) "I shouldn't get a T because all I did was curse and that alone isn't enough."
 

HomeRunBaker

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Hanging on the rim should be switched to delay of game. That could still result in a free throw if it's the 2nd of the game, but would never count as a tech towards ejection or suspension. If a player hangs onto the rim long enough that it could actually be considered taunting or unsportsmanlike, give the refs the leeway to call that. I don't think hanging on the rim too long ALWAYS needs to be considered a technical foul.
You should be on the rules committee. Well done sir.
 

kazuneko

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Hanging on the rim should be switched to delay of game. That could still result in a free throw if it's the 2nd of the game, but would never count as a tech towards ejection or suspension. If a player hangs onto the rim long enough that it could actually be considered taunting or unsportsmanlike, give the refs the leeway to call that. I don't think hanging on the rim too long ALWAYS needs to be considered a technical foul.
Honestly, I don’t understand why the refs need to call any of this. The sport’s basketball’s biggest flaw is that it’s impossible to referee well. Encouraging /allowing refs to call technicals for unnecessary reasons just enhances their already problematic effect on the game.
I mean, Jesus, refs make enough mistakes in every single NBA game that any game decided by less than 10 points is probably within the margin of officiating error. Do we really need to exacerbate that problem by empowering them to call unnecessary technicals?
In the NFL, in every game, coaches like Belichick are in the face yelling expletives at NFL officials and somehow the league hasn’t collapsed - even though the refs aren’t empowered to take away downs or yards for these infractions.
Who the hell cares how long a guy hangs on the rim, and to be honest I don’t want to see a technical called for anything related to behavior other than threats or acts of violence..
 

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That isn't how I interpret that rule. To me it reads that there are other ways to receive a T aside from cursing an official and they name a few.

Unless there was a rule change that I'm not aware of, a T doesn't necessarily have to be unsportsmanlike to count toward the two prior to ejection. Are you implying that if KP hung on the rim to get a second T that he wouldn't be subjected to automatic ejection....because that would be new.

Around 1:50 in Danny Crawford tells Chris Webber that the non-unsportsmanlike T doesn't count toward an ejection. The rulebook doesn't do a great job defining non-unsportsmanlike and explaining the difference between non-unsportsmanlike and unsportsmanlike techs, but unless things have changed I am going to assume they still don't count toward ejections or the suspension.
 

Euclis20

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KP already has 6 technical fouls, leading the league by a mile (a half dozen guys are tied for 2nd with 3). He had 7 all of last year (65 games) and 6 in 2022 (51 games). For the record, the most technicals ever received in a single year is 41 (Rasheed Wallace, 2001).
 

NomarsFool

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The one last night was dumb (not that others weren't dumb, aside from the rim one - that was a horrible call). I guess the league hasn't rescinded the rim hanging dunk? Really?