Hanley ,The Monster, and LF: It's a "work in progress"

[jimbobim]

I liked the Hanley pickup when it happened and still like it. However, anyone with eyeballs can see him and the Wall are deeply uneasy with one another. The goal should be Manny type competence whereas right now  it's cover your eyes on a fly ball to LF. 
 
To the quotes after today's shenanigans from Bradfo 
http://fullcount.weei.com/sports/boston/baseball/red-sox/2015/04/18/hanley-ramirez-not-worried-about-adventures-in-outfield/
 
 
 This came after Ramirez seemingly pulled up on a ball in the left field corner the inning before (also of Paredes’ bat), ending up as the only extra-base hit allowed by Buchholz. (For video of that play, click here.)
After the game, Ramirez insisted the wall was at least partly to blame.
“It hit the wall and then hit my glove so make sure you see the replay person and ask him about it,’ he said. (Note: After further review, upon Ramirez’s suggestion, the ball never did touch the wall.)
“We knew it was going to be a transition for him,” he said. “There was going to be work to be done. The wall here is going to be different than what we had the ability to work with in Fort Myers just because of the way it’s constructed. To me, there’s nothing alarming and the more games played, the more comfortable he’s going to get.”
 
I'm curious how long you guys think it will take before Hanley gets to the point where he's not walking on eggshells out there ? Again the middle of the order bat was needed so I'm willing( and more importantly the Red Sox are willing to the tune of 22m )  to let it play out.
 
However, he's going to start hearing it from those more prone to grumble for his ahem "relaxed"  way of going after the ball once it hits the ground. Also doesn't seem like he's taken to Manny's preference which was to play shallow as hell and anything over the head make you look like a star for running and catching it. 

 

[LogansDad]

Here's the thing with Hanley.  I expect him to be brutal in LF at Fenway, but I have felt from the beginning that this wasn't a signing for a left fielder this year, but a signing for a first/third baseman or DH next year or the year after.  Ortiz isn't going to play forever, and a batter of Hanley's caliber (when healthy) doesn't become an affordable free agent very often, so I think the Sox struck when they could.
 
Having to stash him in left for this year is a side effect of that, not a feature.

 

[Eddie Jurak]

I think that Napoli will walk after this season and Hanley will move to 1B. That said, I'd expect him to get marginally better with more experience in LF.

 

[Savin Hillbilly]

I don't want Hanley at 1B, any more than I would have wanted Manny at 1B (God, can you imagine?). People think of 1B as the least demanding position on the field, but that's only in athletic terms. It's one of the most demanding positions in terms of focus and alertness. (Name me a good 1B who was a space cadet.)
 
Hopefully, he stays in LF till Papi's done, and then moves to his natural position.

 

[Hee Sox Choi]

Frankly, I will never understand why they signed Sandoval.

If we didn't sign Panda (and Hanley played 3B), this lineup would have 8 Rs in it, which would not be optimal.

 

[mt8thsw9th]

I liked the Hanley pickup when it happened and still like it. However, anyone with eyeballs can see him and the Wall are deeply uneasy with one another. The goal should be Manny type competence whereas right now  it's cover your eyes on a fly ball to LF. 

 
Manny wasn't remotely competent in LF, and by 2004 any ball hit to left wasn't quite cover your eyes, but expect it to drop in. 
Anyway, he's basically a few weeks into his LF career, so it's going to take more than a month to learn the position, and if he's still not making any progress come June 1st, then it's probably time to revisit things. I'm willing to chalk it up to growing pains at this point. I don't see any indication that he can't be well beyond "Manny competent" come the All Star break.

 

[Harry Hooper]

I heard Bradord on WEEI during the game. I hope his level of over-reaction wasn't something he heard from the team. Hanley has accumulated roughly 2 months practice in LF and about a week in Fenway. Relax, everyone.

 

[E5 Yaz]

 Hanley has accumulated roughly 2 months practice in LF and about a week in Fenway. Relax, everyone.

 
You can't stop knee-jerk reactions; you can only hope to contain them

 

[AbbyNoho]

I heard Bradord on WEEI during the game. I hope his level of over-reaction wasn't something he heard from the team. Hanley has accumulated roughly 2 months practice in LF and about a week in Fenway. Relax, everyone.

 
Bradford was in rare form during that broadcast. He put chicken little to shame. I doubt the Red Sox feel as strongly about this as he does. 

 

[radsoxfan]

I mentioned this in the game thread, but the biggest disappointment I have with Hanley is how bulked up and stiff he is out there.  I expect his instincts to improve somewhat with more experience, but his "ceiling" is still likely to be well below average because he is moving so poorly.
 
I'm not sure who thought it was a good idea for him to put on all that weight (I'm guessing Hanley not the Red Sox), but regardless, that was likely not a very good move.  Once he's a 1B/DH, it will be fine. But hard to expect him to play a competent LF with that body and with his limited mobility.

 

[twibnotes]

I don't want Hanley at 1B, any more than I would have wanted Manny at 1B (God, can you imagine?). People think of 1B as the least demanding position on the field, but that's only in athletic terms. It's one of the most demanding positions in terms of focus and alertness. (Name me a good 1B who was a space cadet.)
 
Hopefully, he stays in LF till Papi's done, and then moves to his natural position.

This seems like an inappropriate comparison. Hanley, while not a great defensive shortstop, still played years of shortstop at the major league level. Moving to first is entirely realistic.

 

[radsoxfan]

This seems like an inappropriate comparison. Hanley, while not a great defensive shortstop, still played years of shortstop at the major league level. Moving to first is entirely realistic.

 
Yeah, Hanley has been an IF his entire career.  I wouldn't expect a Napoli-like transformation, but I'd have much more confidence in his chances compared to Manny. 

 

[wade boggs chicken dinner]

I mentioned this in the game thread, but the biggest disappointment I have with Hanley is how bulked up and stiff he is out there.  I expect his instincts to improve somewhat with more experience, but his "ceiling" is still likely to be well below average because he is moving so poorly.
 
I'm not sure who thought it was a good idea for him to put on all that weight (I'm guessing Hanley not the Red Sox), but regardless, that was likely not a very good move.  Once he's a 1B/DH, it will be fine. But hard to expect him to play a competent LF with that body and with his limited mobility.

Didn't Hanley say he was bulking up since he wasn't a SS anymore?

BTW, this is probably not the right thread but since it was mentioned, read that Hanley is hitting the ball as hard as anyone in the majors - he has league best 13 hits that registered over 100 mph off the bat. http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/mlb-big-league-stew/hanley-ramirez-hit-a-ball-so-hard-that-he-put-a-hole-in-the-outfield-wall-230858050.html.

Plus be hit a ball so hard he put a hole in the CF wall padding.

Interesting quote:

“Hanley’s going to hurt someone in the infield. I’m serious – he’s going to hurt someone in the infield,” said Sox hitting coach Chili Davis. “Someone’s going to have to try to get out of the way of a ball and they won’t be able to. He hits the ball that hard.”

 

[radsoxfan]

Didn't Hanley say he was bulking up since he wasn't a SS anymore?
 

 
That may be the reasoning, but I don't like it.  LF doesn't require the quickness that SS does, but it would be nice if he could still move a little bit.  He had plenty of power at his previous size. 
 
Whatever the reason for the body transformation, I think he went too far.  He's not much faster than Ortiz/Panda at this point. 

 

[strek1]

 
That may be the reasoning, but I don't like it.  LF doesn't require the quickness that SS does, but it would be nice if he could still move a little bit.  He had plenty of power at his previous size. 
 
Whatever the reason for the body transformation, I think he went too far.  He's not much faster than Ortiz/Panda at this point. 

 
His ability to move isn't in question, it's his "desire" to move.

 

[radsoxfan]

 
His ability to move isn't in question, it's his "desire" to move.

 
Have you seen him recently? Unfortunately, they are both in question.

 

[MikeM]

Frankly, I will never understand why they signed Sandoval. They could have signed Ramirez and played him at 3B this year (had more than enough depth on the OF) which would have allowed them flexibility next year (Hanley to 1b, Bogaerts to 3b, Marrero to SS, for example).
 

 
When i was going through my post-signing WTF phase over Sandoval, it helped that every firsthand evaluation i seemed to dig up on Hanley's play at third was pretty damn negative. Combine that with the no guarantee that X was actually going to be a plus bat, and on that level i could at least understand it. Still hate the signing at it's core...but yeah.
 
Beyond the wishful thinking surrounding Craig, i still see the long term plan for Hanley being a move to first in 2016. 

 

[Papelbon's Poutine]

Frankly, I will never understand why they signed Sandoval. They could have signed Ramirez and played him at 3B this year (had more than enough depth on the OF) which would have allowed them flexibility next year (Hanley to 1b, Bogaerts to 3b, Marrero to SS, for example).
 

 
Perhaps they are convinced Xander is a MLB starting SS for a first division club and Marrero never will be? 

 

[InsideTheParker]

I hope the Red Sox don't see Ramirez as a future first baseman. That's not the easy position some here paint it as being. Napoli prevents hits day after day picking balls out of the dirt, and I don't think Ramirez has that kind of flexibility. Have you seen the stretches Napoli has gone into lately? The stiffness radsoxfan notes would be a hindrance at first as well as in the OF. The double play Nap turned the other day requires a presence of mind that Ramirez hasn't demonstrated. 

 

[Red(s)HawksFan]

I hope the Red Sox don't see Ramirez as a future first baseman. That's not the easy position some here paint it as being. Napoli prevents hits day after day picking balls out of the dirt, and I don't think Ramirez has that kind of flexibility. Have you seen the stretches Napoli has gone into lately? The stiffness radsoxfan notes would be a hindrance at first as well as in the OF. The double play Nap turned the other day requires a presence of mind that Ramirez hasn't demonstrated. 

Couldn't the same have been said of Napoli before he changed positions, in terms of flexibility? Even Napoli himself has admitted surprise at some of the things he's been able to do physically as a first baseman, specifically the stretching part. It's not as though Nap has a thin, wiry physique either.

Hanley had the ability to play SS for a long time. Maybe he wasn't Gold Glove caliber but he was passable. I don't think that athletic ability goes away with a bit of added bulk.

He's had five games in front of the Monster, and barely more than that playing big league games in any other outfield. I think he'll get less cringe-worthy with more experience.

 

[EllisTheRimMan]

 
Manny wasn't remotely competent in LF, and by 2004 any ball hit to left wasn't quite cover your eyes, but expect it to drop in. 
Anyway, he's basically a few weeks into his LF career, so it's going to take more than a month to learn the position, and if he's still not making any progress come June 1st, then it's probably time to revisit things. I'm willing to chalk it up to growing pains at this point. I don't see any indication that he can't be well beyond "Manny competent" come the All Star break.

First off Manny was a superior hitter so he could compensate more for his defensive liabilities at the plate. Second, I disagree with your assessment of Manny's D particularly in Fenway. If Hanley starts to play LF as well as Manny then I'll be pretty happy. Of course, he'll need to deliver with his bat as projected.

 

[Toe Nash]

I don't want Hanley at 1B, any more than I would have wanted Manny at 1B (God, can you imagine?). People think of 1B as the least demanding position on the field, but that's only in athletic terms. It's one of the most demanding positions in terms of focus and alertness. (Name me a good 1B who was a space cadet.)
 
Hopefully, he stays in LF till Papi's done, and then moves to his natural position.

Why do we think Hanley is a space cadet? One play in Miami where he didn't chase a bloop hit? He played SS...not well, but I don't think he was bad there because he wasn't focused.

 

[InsideTheParker]

I don't know if Hanley qualifies as space cadet because of this, but he thought a ball bounced off the wall that in fact bounced out of his glove. Unless the video is somehow misleading. . .

 

[EllisTheRimMan]

Why do we think Hanley is a space cadet? One play in Miami where he didn't chase a bloop hit? He played SS...not well, but I don't think he was bad there because he wasn't focused.

I would ask why do some/many of us think this. More generally, why do some think he has an attitude problem. He's no Pedroia, but he's hardly AJP or whoever (fill in the blank). I think this notion evolved from the Beckett trade and all that brought good and bad (2007 WS and Lugo et al. At SS for many years). The meme is that Hanley had attitude issues no matter how much he produced with the Marlins so we hands down won the trade. Now he comes back nearly a decade later and there still is this perception. Clearly, he's uncomfortable at his new position, but is he dogging it or just adjusting. The dogging it proponents are just extrapolating the party line from many years ago. They may be right, but I doubt it.

 

[In my lifetime]

Please let's relax, give the guy 40 or so games to improve and learn the position.  It is likely he will hit at an elite level if he stays healthy, so anything better than an absolute disaster in LF will be very much a net positive.

 

[Plympton91]

Ramirez was disciplined several times during his tenure in the Red Sox minor league system for conduct unbecoming a professional ballplayer. They always termed it minor and claimed they were using tough love discipline to make him realize how important the little things were.

He also is seen as having sulked quite publicly when the Marlins moved him to 3B, so much so that the trade to the Dodgers could be termed as him having forced his way out of town to a team that would play him at SS.

 

[benhogan]

Well Hanley was jogging home when the Nats pitcher bobbled and then tossed the ball away at the plate the other day.  
 
And he made that boneheaded running play to 3rd on Pablo's single.
 
He comes with a bit of an attitude, the Sox knew this when they signed him and probably feel that Big Papi and Pablo can keep him in check in the clubhouse.
 
His fielding will definitely improve in left, he's obviously a little uncomfortable at the moment.

 

[jimbobim]

I don't know how a thread specifically focusing on Hanley's fielding has given some the opportunity to take a drive by swipe at the Sandoval signing.
 
In Hanley's own words 3b was an emergency type thing. Also ,while 3b is generally not as physically demanding as SS, I would say the health concerns increase dramatically in the dirt vs the OF.  Sandoval for his part has made a good number of nifty plays at 3b.
 
As for whether he is a "space cadet " in terms of his lackadaisical running after the ball has hit the ground in the OF I see it as potentially problematic.
 
1) The book is surely going to get out there to other teams to try for 2nd on any ball not hit right at Hanley. I do think he's not going pell mell because he's avoiding full on contact with the wall, but I think he's taken this guidance to an extreme. 
 
2)  Boston writers and antsy fans love Jonny Hustles even if they are average to bad in the bigger picture.  This love is inversely correlated to the moaning and groaning when very gifted players are interpreted to not be going 100 percent.  
 
All in  all it's very early and I think Hanley's OF development will be a pretty big story line. I also think that  where there's smoke ,with this being Ortiz's final year, there may be fire even if I think he could probably play another year after this. I'd be perfectly fine DH'ing Hanley because I think rotating players through that spot is a bit overrated. 

 

[geoduck no quahog]

Please let's relax, give the guy 40 or so games to improve and learn the position.  It is likely he will hit at an elite level if he stays healthy, so anything better than an absolute disaster in LF will be very much a net positive.

 
And put it in some perspective. Manny was always an outfielder. By the time we saw the Manny some people are comparing Hanley to, he had played outfield for 10 years.
 

Ramirez was disciplined several times during his tenure in the Red Sox minor league system for conduct unbecoming a professional ballplayer. They always termed it minor and claimed they were using tough love discipline to make him realize how important the little things were.
 

 
And continuing with perspective, talking about something Hanley did as a kid more than 10 years ago is equally un-instructive.
 
Hanley is absolutely a work-in-progress. Not only as an outfielder, but as a Fenway Park left fielder. Let's at least calm down until he's fielded 1,000 balls off the wall during BP. 

 

[Devizier]

Manny Ramirez came up as a corner outfielder and had a decade of professional experience there before the Red Sox signed him.
 
I'm with everyone else urging some patience here.

 

[Al Zarilla]

 This came after Ramirez seemingly pulled up on a ball in the left field corner the inning before (also of Paredes’ bat), ending up as the only extra-base hit allowed by Buchholz. (For video of that play, click here.)
 

Clicking on that link gets to the box score and then we have to search a bunch of videos for the one you mean. To embed a particular MLB.com video, get it on your screen, left click on Copy Link, highlight and copy the address that shows up, and paste it into your post. Saves the rest of us searching for it.
 
http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/gameday/index.jsp?gid=2015_04_18_balmlb_bosmlb_1&mode=video&content_id=79625783&tcid=vpp_copy_79625783

 

[foulkehampshire]

People here have a rosy view about Manny's defense. He's one of the worst fielders to ever play the position, period.
 
I have a hard time wrapping my head around Hanley being worse, or even close to the butcher that Manny ever was.

 

[EllisTheRimMan]

People here have a rosy view about Manny's defense. He's one of the worst fielders to ever play the position, period.
 
I have a hard time wrapping my head around Hanley being worse, or even close to the butcher that Manny ever was.

Given, that we can only rely on our eyes 11 games in and our memories and funky defensive metrics regarding LF at Fenway, I must respectfully disagree. Hanley looks as lost as a guy learning a new position in a quirky park could look. Manny wasn't great, but he didn't look lost.

 

[Montana Fan]

Remember when Manny was a rightfielder? Back in the day there were a number of posters advocating that he should play RF with the Sox.  Like Deviz and Geo said, patience...

 

[radsoxfan]

Hanley had the ability to play SS for a long time. Maybe he wasn't Gold Glove caliber but he was passable. I don't think that athletic ability goes away with a bit of added bulk.
 

 
It's more than a bit of added bulk.  If you just watch him run around, the athleticism is pretty much gone.
 
I agree with the general sentiment that he will get better and we should be patient.  But as I said before, at his current size/mobility, his ceiling is unfortunately still quite low. 

 

[Al Zarilla]

Remember when Manny was a rightfielder? Back in the day there were a number of posters advocating that he should play RF with the Sox.  Like Deviz and Geo said, patience...

Quick scan of BBREF, Manny played a grand total of 7 games in RF for the Red Sox, all in 2002, and can't tell if any of them were in Boston. He was a right fielder for Cleveland, but Manny in RF at Fenway would have been an atrocity, mostly for his range, but I don't think he had enough arm for it either. 
 
I'm not sure how much better Hanley's going to get as an outfielder. It's not totally a can't teach an old dog new tricks thing, but I can't see him working on it like a rookie desperately trying to make the team and that's the only position he'd have a chance at. He's just going to be a stumblebutt out there. JMO.

 

[ALiveH]

Left field at Fenway is the smallest (in square footage) but the funkiest, because of the wall.  It stands to reason that it doesn't require great physical tools.  It's more about experience playing caroms off the wall & holding potential doubles into singles with clean plays & quick short accurate throws into second.
 
It seems like every new left fielder looks bad in the beginning & keeps getting better over time with experience.  I even recall it made a gold glove CF Carl Crawford look pretty average when he first got here.  And, once they got used to it, even guys like Manny were better at Fenway than the LF on visiting teams with limited wall experience.
 
In summary, this isn't even close to my top-5 list of worries for this season.  I wouldn't mind leaving Hanley out there for years actually.  It's just another position the Sox can hide a middle of the order bat with mediocre defensive skills (like they've done for the last 70+ years).

 

[O Captain! My Captain!]

Balls bouncing off the monster eat up every player from time to time. I swear I've seen two dozen left fielders of various degrees of defensive rep look as bad as Hanley has making plays off the wall. At this point he's basically a visiting left fielder in terms of experience. 

 

[EllisTheRimMan]

At this point he's basically a visiting left fielder in terms of experience. 

Clarification: A visiting SS playing LF in Fenway.

 

[Montana Fan]

Al, I remember Manny with the Indians. One of the arguments the pro Manny in Red Sox RF made was the strength of his arm. It was pretty inarguable that he couldn't cover the ground but some wanted him in Right though for the life of me I can't remember who was gonna play left.


And an HR for HR. That's what he's here for.

 

[alwyn96]

It's fascinating to think that a guy who had the athleticism to play SS as recently as last year could look so lost in LF, particularly Fenway's LF. I don't think it's for a lack of effort - I think a lot of Hanley's awkwardness out there is largely getting terrible reads on balls off the bat and a lack of comfort with the wall. Getting a terrible read can often look like laziness or lack of athleticism because you look like you're stuck in molasses and you don't know where to go because you can't predict where the ball is going to be. I imagine it's particularly tough for a guy who's rarely had to deal with walls or tracking long flyballs much in his life.
 
It also underscores what remarkable athletes Holt and Betts are, who can play multiple positions at a major league level with limited prior experience. I remember when the Red Sox experimented with Youkilis in in the OF, and he just absolutely hated it. It can be a tough transition for some players. Hopefully Hanley can get better with some repetition.

 

[threecy]

It also underscores what remarkable athletes Holt and Betts are, who can play multiple positions at a major league level with limited prior experience.

I think this brings up another point...not only do the Sox have a LF new to the position, but they also have CFs new to the position.
 
I think one could argue that Red Sox LFers often perform best when they have a strong, experienced CF next to them, as they can take more risks, different routes, etc.

 

[Plympton91]

One of the things that made Hanley Ramirez a $22 million player was his athleticism. I hope that the added bulk hasn't completely robbed him of that. He was once a 40 steals guy, and while we weren't going to see that again, I had hoped we'd get a 15 steal guy at a 75% success rate.

 

[Savin Hillbilly]

I would ask why do some/many of us think this. More generally, why do some think he has an attitude problem. He's no Pedroia, but he's hardly AJP or whoever (fill in the blank). I think this notion evolved from the Beckett trade and all that brought good and bad (2007 WS and Lugo et al. At SS for many years). The meme is that Hanley had attitude issues no matter how much he produced with the Marlins so we hands down won the trade. Now he comes back nearly a decade later and there still is this perception. Clearly, he's uncomfortable at his new position, but is he dogging it or just adjusting. The dogging it proponents are just extrapolating the party line from many years ago. They may be right, but I doubt it.

 
I remember hearing serious questions about Hanley's makeup when he was still just hitting the prospect radar, well before the trade. Maybe those concerns were overblown, but they were definitely out there when we still thought he was going to be a Sox player; they were not just a retroactive sour-grapes thing. 

 

[EllisTheRimMan]

One of the things that made Hanley Ramirez a $22 million player was his athleticism. I hope that the added bulk hasn't completely robbed him of that. He was once a 40 steals guy, and while we weren't going to see that again, I had hoped we'd get a 15 steal guy at a 75% success rate.

 
No, the one thing that made Hanley a $22MM per guy is that he hits the snot out of the ball.

 

[glasspusher]

Manny wasn't a sparkling outfielder in Cleveland, either. A lot of folks in Cleveland thought he had ADD. Fly balls were often an adventure if hit to right.

 

[Eddie Jurak]

Al, I remember Manny with the Indians. One of the arguments the pro Manny in Red Sox RF made was the strength of his arm. It was pretty inarguable that he couldn't cover the ground but some wanted him in Right though for the life of me I can't remember who was gonna play left.


And an HR for HR. That's what he's here for.

I think Manny himself wanted to play RF... until he realized what RF looked like in Fenway Park.

 

[ivanvamp]

9 runs, 5 homers, 12 rbi, .895 ops, 145 ops+ in just 11 games.  Whatever fielding issues he may be having are more than made up for by his offense.  So far anyway.

 

[HriniakPosterChild]

I think Manny himself wanted to play RF... until he realized what RF looked like in Fenway Park.

The fact that Manny played for an AL team coming up and visited Femway as a RFer dozens of times makes this even more Mannyesque.

 

[EllisTheRimMan]

 
I remember hearing serious questions about Hanley's makeup when he was still just hitting the prospect radar, well before the trade. Maybe those concerns were overblown, but they were definitely out there when we still thought he was going to be a Sox player; they were not just a retroactive sour-grapes thing. 

 
Wasn't saying they weren't there before, but they were reinforced substantially after the trade.  I already said he was no Pedroia or insert your favorite talented  or even semi-talented dirt dog's name here.  Therefore, I don't think we disagree at all.  Let's face it, Hanley will never play the game the "right way" (/snark/).