Holt to concussion DL and Smith to DL. Swihart and Noe Ramirez recalled.

Cesar Crespo

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Thanks - makes sense.

Love that lineup. They can pinch hit Swihart for either catcher comfortably now. I'd like to see him get some of Hanigan's reps behind the plate, but doubt he'll get much.
That's something that didn't occur to me until now and shows how valuable having a player who could adequately play LF/C would be to a baseball team. It essentially allows you to carry 3 catchers, which as you said, allows them to pinch hit for their catchers liberally. You wouldn't even have to use Swihart to pinch hit necessarily. Was it Tito who would never pinch hit for a catcher in fear of injury or was that basically all managers?
 

Buzzkill Pauley

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There's also the possibility that Blake is horrible in left field.
Regardless of this possibility, it's the right move to DL Holt if even mildly concussed. It probably should have been done before now, which can also be said for sending Smith to the DL, too.

But these are competitive guys who want to play even when banged up, so whatever.
 

Adrian's Dome

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Mets, Royals, Yankees, and Orioles immediately come to mind.
The Yankees only developed Betances. They signed Miller and traded for Chapman, which isn't all that different than trading for Kimbrel and Smith. Hell, you may give the Red Sox credit for developing Miller into what he is today.

Occasionally, teams get lucky building bullpens out of scraps. It doesn't happen often, and there's few things more frustrating than watching what should be a good team lose multiple games because the bullpen can't hold a lead. It's easy for us to become complacent watching a top four of Taz, Koji, Smith, and Kimbrel, but there's a lot of previous Red Sox teams that would've murdered for a back end like that. I still occasionally have cold sweat flashbacks of Rudy Seanez and Joel Pineiro.
 

Cesar Crespo

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There's also the possibility that Blake is horrible in left field.

While this is a possibility, he did play 15 some odd games in LF down in AAA, and while a small sample size, if he looked completely lost out there I doubt they would be making this move. I think it's far more telling what they think of Blake as a catcher.
 

Toe Nash

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While this is a possibility, he did play 15 some odd games in LF down in AAA, and while a small sample size, if he looked completely lost out there I doubt they would be making this move. I think it's far more telling what they think of Blake as a catcher.
He played 11 games and I'm sure he did OK. But none of them involved the Green Monster or Fenway's weirdly-shaped left field.
 

YTF

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Audition for Swihart, guessing when Holt's back he gets sent down to work on it some more. If he works out down there, perhaps he reappears in a few months and Handyman get's let go or maybe dealt to the inevitable team that is in need of a backup catcher going into the last 1/3 of the season. Or perhaps if successful it boosts Swihart's value.
 

joe dokes

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Mets, Royals, Yankees, and Orioles immediately come to mind

It's really only the Orioles & KC; and Britton, Bundy and Hochevar all got long looks as starters first.

The Yankees developed Betances (as a starter, but that doesn't matter), Shreve was a Brave, Yates a Tampa, Miller, Chapman elsewhere.
Orioles: Britton, Bundy and Givens are home grown, Brach was a Padre
Royals: Davis was in TB, Herrera, Hochevar and Duffy are home grown (altho query the value of a 1-1 on Hochevar)
The Mets only home grown reliever of note is Familia.
Sox have Tazawa and Barnes.

Neither Smith nor Elias were the sort of "established" reliever that teams typically (and often wrongly, I agree with you there) trade for.
And certainly through today, Seattle "won" that trade. But that's a low bar for Miley -- 3 really shitty starts, 2 not so hot, 1 great, and 2 other very good ones.
 

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I am much more concerned about the Carson Smith thing. If he's not going to be available, we're going to need to replace him and not with Noe Ramirez.
 

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I am much more concerned about the Carson Smith thing. If he's not going to be available, we're going to need to replace him and not with Noe Ramirez.
This is absolutely true. It has gone from forearm stiffness to elbow. Even if it doesn't require surgery now, it sure seems like a bomb ready to go off. Add to that the uncertainty of when Koji might show his age, and it's a longterm issue for the season
 

Buzzkill Pauley

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I think it's way too early to make this move a statement about anything long-term.

The Sox are facing three hard-throwing RHP in the next three days. Holt can't hit anything the way he is now, and that's a terrible match up for either Young or Castillo.

Plus, the Indians offense has been on fire. The Sox are likely going to need the bats to show up in force this series.
 

joe dokes

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This is absolutely true. It has gone from forearm stiffness to elbow. Even if it doesn't require surgery now, it sure seems like a bomb ready to go off. Add to that the uncertainty of when Koji might show his age, and it's a longterm issue for the season

He reminds me of Willliamson. I just hope he has a 2003-like run in him before the explosion.
 

soxhop411

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“‪@alexspeier‬: Swihart won’t catch in the big leagues during this callup. Will platoon in LF w/Young”
 

Rasputin

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This is absolutely true. It has gone from forearm stiffness to elbow. Even if it doesn't require surgery now, it sure seems like a bomb ready to go off. Add to that the uncertainty of when Koji might show his age, and it's a longterm issue for the season
If we're talking to the Braves about Teheran, I hope we're talking to them about Hunter Cervenko and/or Arodys Vizcaino, too. The Braves don't have any particular reason to trade them, but I'm willing to up the prospect package a bit.

“‪@alexspeier‬: Swihart won’t catch in the big leagues during this callup. Will platoon in LF w/Young”
I guess this is so he can just concentrate on learning left in Fenway, but it strikes me as being a bit dumb.
 

E5 Yaz

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I guess this is so he can just concentrate on learning left in Fenway, but it strikes me as being a bit dumb.
I always fall back on the Pitino Axiom: What's True Today Isn't Necessarily True Tomorrow

If they run into a situation where Swihart has to catch, he'll catch
 

TeddyBallgame9

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I am much more concerned about the Carson Smith thing. If he's not going to be available, we're going to need to replace him and not with Noe Ramirez.
I'm guessing Noe goes back down tomorrow when Kelly gets activated, so essentially Carson Smith's replacement is Heath Hembree, which creates a 7 man bullpen. Hopefully Hembree can continue to pitch well.
 

ugmo33

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I think this makes a lot of sense and fits with the philosophy of these Sox. They need a LHH platoon partner for Young and Blake hits righties pretty well. It may not be best for his development as a catcher or for his trade stock but it seems like the right thing for this team to win
 

Rasputin

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The same Hunter Cervenko from our system who never did anything for us?
I could not possibly care less about him being in our system four freaking years ago.

I'm guessing Noe goes back down tomorrow when Kelly gets activated, so essentially Carson Smith's replacement is Heath Hembree, which creates a 7 man bullpen. Hopefully Hembree can continue to pitch well.
Thanks for pointing this out, and it is no doubt true. Still, I want a fourth guy who can make sure Taz' arm doesn't fall off. Plus as someone mentioned above, Koji is old enough to drop off the cliff any minute.
 

RIrooter09

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It's really only the Orioles & KC; and Britton, Bundy and Hochevar all got long looks as starters first.

The Yankees developed Betances (as a starter, but that doesn't matter), Shreve was a Brave, Yates a Tampa, Miller, Chapman elsewhere.
Orioles: Britton, Bundy and Givens are home grown, Brach was a Padre
Royals: Davis was in TB, Herrera, Hochevar and Duffy are home grown (altho query the value of a 1-1 on Hochevar)
The Mets only home grown reliever of note is Familia.
Sox have Tazawa and Barnes.

Neither Smith nor Elias were the sort of "established" reliever that teams typically (and often wrongly, I agree with you there) trade for.
And certainly through today, Seattle "won" that trade. But that's a low bar for Miley -- 3 really shitty starts, 2 not so hot, 1 great, and 2 other very good ones.
I'm aware that Chapman was acquired via a trade and Miller a free agent. The Yankees also developed David Phelps, Shawn Kelly, and David Robertson who are excelling with other teams. Hansel Robles is another home grown reliever for the Mets.

You're effectively making my point by saying that Hochevar, Britton, and Bundy are failed starters. That's how teams develop relievers internally.

I agree that it's not as easy as teams such as the Royals have made it look, it's just something that has bugged me in recent years, especially considering the Sox resources.
 

chrisfont9

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This is absolutely true. It has gone from forearm stiffness to elbow. Even if it doesn't require surgery now, it sure seems like a bomb ready to go off. Add to that the uncertainty of when Koji might show his age, and it's a longterm issue for the season
But they examined it and it didn't need surgery, so unless he has a new injury, it definitely is not a bomb ready to go off. It's a flexor strain.
 

RedOctober3829

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But they examined it and it didn't need surgery, so unless he has a new injury, it definitely is not a bomb ready to go off. It's a flexor strain.
It doesn't mean that it eventually won't need surgery either. Flexor strains can be and are usually treated with the same program Smith did to come back. Andrew Miller had a similar injury and came back weeks later and has been fine ever sense. However, if the tendon does not respond well to this method and is degenerated the area has to be surgically repaired. This would not be good because Smith would be out for the season. If Smith continues to pitch through this, yes it's possible he could tear his UCL and be out much longer.
 

Erik Hanson's Hook

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worried about Smith's arm. He was supposedly a big part of things this year, tho Koji and Taz seem to be holding up well so far
 
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geoduck no quahog

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...You're effectively making my point by saying that Hochevar, Britton, and Bundy are failed starters. That's how teams develop relievers internally...
There are approximately 250 relief pitchers who have made at least 6 appearances so far this year. I think you should figure out a way to back up what you're saying by looking at them and determining how they made it to the majors, and from what systems. Hell, just pick the top 100 if 250 is too many. I'm interested in seeing if your point is correct.
 

RedOctober3829

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There are approximately 250 relief pitchers who have made at least 6 appearances so far this year. I think you should figure out a way to back up what you're saying by looking at them and determining how they made it to the majors, and from what systems. Hell, just pick the top 100 if 250 is too many. I'm interested in seeing if your point is correct.
I just looked at 2 NL East teams just as an example.
Atlanta
Arodys Vizcaino--failed starter in Cubs organization. Traded to Atlanta and has relieved ever since.
Eric O'Flaherty--13 career starts in minors out of close to 150 appearances. Mostly a reliever
Alexi Ogando--started in majors for Texas but went back to a reliever.
Hunter Cervenka--started 1 short season for Lowell in Red Sox system. Has relieved ever since.
Jason Grilli--was a starter all the way up in the Giants and Tigers systems but has only 16 starts in 499 MLB appearances. I guess you can categorize this as a failed starter.

NY Mets
Addison Reed--career reliever. Only 2 starts in his pro career.
Hansel Robles--failed starter in Mets organization.
Jerry Blevins--career reliever.
Jeurys Familia--failed starter in Mets organization.
Jim Henderson--failed starter in Montreal/Washington organization.
 

chrisfont9

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It doesn't mean that it eventually won't need surgery either. Flexor strains can be and are usually treated with the same program Smith did to come back. Andrew Miller had a similar injury and came back weeks later and has been fine ever sense. However, if the tendon does not respond well to this method and is degenerated the area has to be surgically repaired. This would not be good because Smith would be out for the season. If Smith continues to pitch through this, yes it's possible he could tear his UCL and be out much longer.
OK thanks
 

pantsparty

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It was just reported on the NESN broadcast that Holt's injury occurred diving for a ball at 2B during the Oakland series - he initially thought it was just some neck stiffness/whiplash and tried to play through it.
 

MadStork

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Swihart showed the last few months he was rushed. Now learning an OF position in a matter of weeks has to make you nervous.

I don't understand why BBrentz has not been given an opportunity?
Some players might need, "only a chance".
 

Soxfan in Fla

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See you next summer, Carson
Crap. You're pretty much the only poster on here that can post that and not have it characterized as a knee-jerk reaction. Not good. That said, if this is where this was inevitably headed it's probably good for the future to get the surgery done and recovery timeline started.
 

Rasputin

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See you next summer, Carson
Crap. You're pretty much the only poster on here that can post that and not have it characterized as a knee-jerk reaction. Not good. That said, if this is where this was inevitably headed it's probably good for the future to get the surgery done and recovery timeline started.
Goddammit.

Barnes isn't ready to be that guy. Maybe soon. Not yet. Pat Light isn't ready to be that guy. Maybe two years from now. Not now. Noe Ramirez isn't ready to have a locker next to that guy. He'll never be that guy.

We need another guy.
 

Buzzkill Pauley

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Goddammit.

Barnes isn't ready to be that guy. Maybe soon. Not yet. Pat Light isn't ready to be that guy. Maybe two years from now. Not now. Noe Ramirez isn't ready to have a locker next to that guy. He'll never be that guy.

We need another guy.
The Sox have Kimbrel, and Koji, and Taz. And 4 other guys need to not suck terribly this year -- guys like Hembree, Barnes, Layne, and Ross. None of whom have sucked terribly.

The Sox bullpen is 3rd in the AL by ERA, 3rd in the AL by FIP, and 6th in the AL by Siera. That's with 2 2/3 innings pitched by Smith. And with 15 1/3 pitched by the combination of Ramirez, Elias, Light, Cuevas, and O'Sullivan.

That #8 guy (without Smith): 88 BF, 23 H, 10 2B, 1 HR, 12 BB, 2 HBP, 12 K. That line is "good" for an 8.22 ERA with an average line of .311/.420/.486 batting against.

That #8 guy will never be good enough. No #8 guy ever is.

However, the 7-deep Sox bullpen is already good enough to win a championship.

Though this news does, in fact, suck.
 

Zincman

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I just don't think Swihart's bat is special enough to be an everyday player. It seems the Red Sox are diminishing his value by refusing to give him the catching reps he needs to increase his value, especially to other teams. If his overall catching improves, then he is a good hitting catcher. LF, not so much
 

Lose Remerswaal

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It was just reported on the NESN broadcast that Holt's injury occurred diving for a ball at 2B during the Oakland series - he initially thought it was just some neck stiffness/whiplash and tried to play through it.
Dammit, those infields are just two darn hard. They really need to be playing on bubblewrap or on one off those trampoline type fields so people don't keep getting hurt!
 

Lose Remerswaal

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How is that relevant to Swihart? I think Blake will be fine but players are different.
The point was being made that Swihart only has very limited LF experience and it might be a bad idea to put him in front of the Monster without more experience. My Holt response was that he was put in the Sox outfield in a real MLB game with zero minor league time and he turned out to be perfectly cromulent out there.
 

joe dokes

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In addition to his general non-catcher-ish athleticism, Swihart apparently was a regular OF in high school. (Thus his relative inexperience at catcher). That counts for something. He looks, *at worst* to be a below average outfielder, but an outfielder nevertheless. That's more than I could say about Hanley, or for example, Youkilis, who didn't even look like major league baseball players out there. But the point about the Monster's unique effects on OF play is legit. At least having JBJ to his left won't hurt.
 

nothumb

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In addition to his general non-catcher-ish athleticism, Swihart apparently was a regular OF in high school. (Thus his relative inexperience at catcher). That counts for something. He looks, *at worst* to be a below average outfielder, but an outfielder nevertheless. That's more than I could say about Hanley, or for example, Youkilis, who didn't even look like major league baseball players out there. But the point about the Monster's unique effects on OF play is legit. At least having JBJ to his left won't hurt.
Plus, maybe JBJ can bump up his dWAR a bit by making some out of zone plays for Blake in the gap, and we can all stop making jokes about how he just needs to hit enough to cover up his lousy defense.

SSS and all, but I think Blake will be good enough in LF and his bat will be above average against RHP. I hope in the long run that he truly is a platoon LF / backup C, and not just a LF / emergency C, because I think it gives him more value and the Sox roster flexibility. To do this, Farrell would have to break out of his "certain guys catch certain guys" routine and actually base some of his decisions on who the Sox are facing.
 

smastroyin

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I think it's a waste of time to have Swihart in LF and have trouble moving beyond that. As well, he wasn't hitting in Pawtucket and I'd prefer they'd just let him figure it out first. Call up Brentz if you have. I feel like this move prioritizes Castillo figuring things out over Swihart.

Making Swihart a full time OF to address a team need is like trading him for Bryce Brentz (before his putrid year this year). Why would you do that? And yet even smart people on this board are ok with it because there is something extra special about having "our guys" playing the positions.
 

Rasputin

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I think it's a waste of time to have Swihart in LF and have trouble moving beyond that. As well, he wasn't hitting in Pawtucket and I'd prefer they'd just let him figure it out first. Call up Brentz if you have. I feel like this move prioritizes Castillo figuring things out over Swihart.

Making Swihart a full time OF to address a team need is like trading him for Bryce Brentz (before his putrid year this year). Why would you do that? And yet even smart people on this board are ok with it because there is something extra special about having "our guys" playing the positions.
Nobody has come within a hundred miles of suggesting making him a full time OF.
 

Rasputin

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Yet, the organization keeps taking actions that suggest exactly that.
Like what?

The closest thing they have come to taking an action that suggests that is say that he isn't going to catch while he's up to play left. As has been pointed out--I think in this thread, but I don't care enough to go check--that's not going to prevent him from being the emergency catcher. As silly as I think it is, I'm pretty sure they're doing it so he doesn't have to spend time learning the opposing hitters so he can spend it learning the wall.

That doesn't suggest they're making him a left fielder permanently. It suggests that they know their left field wall is one that takes some getting used to and since they only expect him to be up for a week or so, they're totally cool with him being unprepared to attack hitters in the half a percent chance that he's required to catch.
 

SouthernBoSox

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Like what?

The closest thing they have come to taking an action that suggests that is say that he isn't going to catch while he's up to play left. As has been pointed out--I think in this thread, but I don't care enough to go check--that's not going to prevent him from being the emergency catcher. As silly as I think it is, I'm pretty sure they're doing it so he doesn't have to spend time learning the opposing hitters so he can spend it learning the wall.

That doesn't suggest they're making him a left fielder permanently. It suggests that they know their left field wall is one that takes some getting used to and since they only expect him to be up for a week or so, they're totally cool with him being unprepared to attack hitters in the half a percent chance that he's required to catch.
This is a guy who, if not for second half service time, would be the number 1 catching prospect in all of baseball.

They decided to give him time in left to "expand his versatility."

They have played him regularly in left field at AAA.

When the big league team needed an OF they recalled Swihart, at the expense of catching time.

The big league manager has specifically said he won't catch at the major league level right now.

Every move they have made to this point has sacrificed catching development. Every single one. This isn't a organization that believes in him as a catcher. Period.

If you can't see the writing on the wall then you don't see the wall or you can't read the writing.
 

geoduck no quahog

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What I find, say, unusual...is a guy with that body being cultivated as a catcher. Maybe someone can help me out with the historical context of becoming a catcher. I picture one of 4 things:

- fat & slow guys who can hit but don't have the ability to play 1B and at least have the brains and tools to try being a catcher
- young guys that can hit but can't field and whose value is horrible as a DH, but can learn how to catch
- natural catchers with all the tools, who may or may not be able to hit

- Swihart (who looks like the kind of kid who could easily field) but someone thought his value would be exponentially increased if he was good behind the plate. I understand that.
 

AB in DC

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. This isn't a organization that believes in him as a catcher. Period.

Jump to conclusions much?

The Sox have Vazquez/Hanigan catching for 2016, but have a hole in LF. So they're giving Swihart a chance to fill that hole. Then Hanigan's contract will expire at the end of the year, and the team will need a second catcher for 2017. Why on earth would it not be Swihart?
 

Rasputin

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This is a guy who, if not for second half service time, would be the number 1 catching prospect in all of baseball.
I'm pretty sure the organization doesn't give a fuck about having the number one catching prospect in baseball when compared to having a solid contributing player at the major league level.

They decided to give him time in left to "expand his versatility."
Which some of us have been calling for for years as a way to keep both catchers.

They have played him regularly in left field at AAA.
They have played him 15 games at C and 11 in left at AAA

When the big league team needed an OF they recalled Swihart, at the expense of catching time.
The goal of the organization is not to make Blake Swihart the best catcher possible. The goal of the organization is to win games and, ultimately, the World Series. None of the other outfield options are good. A Blake Swihart that can play left and catch at the major league level is a very good asset going forward this season.

The big league manager has specifically said he won't catch at the major league level right now.
I've already addressed this point.

Every move they have made to this point has sacrificed catching development. Every single one. This isn't a organization that believes in him as a catcher. Period.
That's not a conclusion that you can draw from the available data. At most you can say that they value winning games more than they value developing him as a catcher. I'm sure you see that as worthy of criticism, but that's nonsense. The goal is to win the World Series, not develop catchers.

If you can't see the writing on the wall then you don't see the wall or you can't read the writing.
You're not reading the writing on the wall. You're applying a narrative to facts that only fits if you squint real hard and the light's not good.

Meanwhile--and I cannot stress this enough--if Blake Swihart never catches another game in his life, and goes on to have a lovely career as a left fielder in Fenway Park, THAT'S NOT A BAD THING.
 

SouthernBoSox

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Jump to conclusions much?

The Sox have Vazquez/Hanigan catching for 2016, but have a hole in LF. So they're giving Swihart a chance to fill that hole. Then Hanigan's contract will expire at the end of the year, and the team will need a second catcher for 2017. Why on earth would it not be Swihart?
Again, every single piece of evidence points to an organization that doesn't view this player as a player with long term catching prospects.

We as fans want to believe in him because that's what we do as fans. It's what we think is perfect. Get both Swihart and Vazquez on the roster as catchers..... But that isn't what's happening right now, and all of the signs point to a different direction.