Barring injury (knock wood), Tatum will once again compete for the league lead in minutes. He loves to play, and there’s an organizational philosophy that players need to be physically ready for lots of hard minutes in the playoffs.
Hot and Not Hot Cs Takes...Will They Age Well?
- Thread starter Shaky Walton
- Start date
And along with this, the bench is going to have a LOT of nights where it puts up 8 points or whatever, even when the team does well. The Celtics have 2-4 of their 5 (!) offensive creators on the floor at all times, and unless a team really sells out to leave PP/Hauser wide open (which is crazy), the play is going to get finished by one of the starters more often than not.
There were a few plays last night where Tatum and White had PP/Hauser wide open, and took the shot instead, with mixed results.
Minus injuries, this is my biggest concern. By mid-season, I could see JB for Rob and Brogdon + looking far more palatable than anyone would have imagined a few months ago.
Edit: more realistically, I could see them doing a lateral move where they deal Hauser for a player of similar value but different makeup, less of a floor-spacer and more of an athletic banger. They just don't have size and athleticism off the bench. Horford is old, Hauser and Pritchard aren't strong, Brisset is the closest but undersized. The bench will have some good nights but— I fear— won't be able to give them enough quality minutes against some of the more physical teams.
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It's 2023: Brisset's size is totally fine for a non-center. I don't think there's any way they deal Hauser (and his extremely appealing contract) unless an incredible deal comes along.
He may be in Memphis but he is still costing this team!
JK
If I were to accuse one player of caring about his stats the most out of the 6 it would be Jayson Tatum.
I have absolutely nothing to base this on other than his MVP hunger (which is what makes him great/work his ass off all summer)
I'm really not down on Hauser. I just think that if you were drafting this team from scratch and had the top 7 guys defined, you wouldn't think, "for our next pick, we should load up on more three-point shooting." He seemed more integral to the team coming into last season, when the overall 3pt accuracy and spacing was more of a question mark.
Horford coming off the bench in 25 minutes has looked pretty spry to my eye. Brisset looked good last night in that athletic guy off the bench, especially against a smaller team like the Heat.
My way too early HOT TAKEZ on how CJM will adjust rotations & style of play
1. Add Brisset or Stevens' defense/energy to the TOP6 more often
2. More on-ball pressure well above the break instead of letting teams get into sets (reviewing game film will tell him that)
3. 3/4 court press will be sprinkled into games to increase the pace of play
4. Split up KP and Horford minutes more, playing them together doesn't accomplish much
5. The starters' MPG will come down as we play the less competitive teams and PP/Hauser/Svi shooting will extend leads in those games
6. Kornet can go back to running Bus #1
Wing is one of their thinnest positions. They absolutely want a true SF who's a shooter.
Also, Hauser's individual and team defense has improved a lot, and they seem fine leaving him out their against more guys. He defended Butler credibly yesterday.
Yep, the NBA Media loves lumping Hauser and Pritchard's defense together, they lean into the Unathletic White Man trope hard.
Anyone who has watched closely knows that Sam Island consistently forces alpha WINGs into lower % FGA late in the shot clock.
Yeah, there are legitimate Hauser/PP critiques, but most of what people criticize them for is just really lazy racial stereotyping.
The bigger issue they have is that they need a smoothly functioning offense where the alpha playmakers are looking for them, and the Celtics just aren't there yet.
Brisset is 6'7", 210 and Lamar Stevens is 6'6" 230 and both are spectacular athletes.
I'm honestly wondering because I can't think of anyone off the top of my head - who are you thinking of that is bigger than these two, as athletic, and have decent contracts that could be acquired? I mean athletic 6'9", 6'10" guys are pretty coveted around the league, no?
Jalen Smith gets brought up a fair bit on Reddit, but I can't imagine Indy doing it.
Free Svi
Prichard has looked a little reticent in the first two games, after playing extremely confident basketball in the preseason. He might be concentrating on getting the remaining starters going when he first gets into the game, but I’d like to have him with a little bit more of a Jamal Crawford, or Jordan Clarkson type attitude.
Hopefully the Cs can blow out Washington next game, so Queta can get on the court. I would like to see him supplant Kornet as the third center.
Prichard has looked a little reticent in the first two games, after playing extremely confident basketball in the preseason. He might be concentrating on getting the remaining starters going when he first gets into the game, but I’d like to have him with a little bit more of a Jamal Crawford, or Jordan Clarkson type attitude.
Hopefully the Cs can blow out Washington next game, so Queta can get on the court. I would like to see him supplant Kornet as the third center.
Jalen Smith isn't what I would call a "banger". Also, as you point out, IND isn't going to give him away and POBOS isn't trading any assrts for him.
Looking at this list, I dunno, I think maybe Precious Achiuwa depending on if Toronto wants to tear it down.
But now I'm wondering why Demetrius Jackson is on this list for some reason under Celtics cap.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/contracts/players.html
To argue against my own post for a moment (fascinating reading, I know): I suppose putting Hauser and Pritchard out there serves the purpose of basically reducing the game to 3-on-3 for stretches of time. The defense has to stick to those two guys, they don't create or do much, but when you can fill out the rest of the lineup with one half of your six all-star calibre players and rest the other half, it works decently for all involved. And maybe provides the optimal time for a player like JB a chance to scratch the iso-ball itch with the floor spaced.
This is where scouting comes into play. The player needs to be more of a banger and alright with being the clear 3rd big man on the totem pole (so probably someone that's older or not playing immediately for a new contract). The personality type is very important because you don't want to bring someone in that disrupts the chemistry and heirarchy.
Also, Miami is a particularly disciplined team that knows the Celtics' personnel well. They were a lot more attentive to not leaving Hauser than random January opponent will be.
The bench has been a mess, really the only negative so far this season, and Mazzulla needs to prioritize figuring that out rather than going the KC Jones route of just riding the starters until/inless the break down. I don't fully trust him to do that, but we shall see.
As a hot take, this is the right thread for it. But the minutes to date could also be Joe trying to get these guys used to playing with each other. If we're still talking about big minutes for the 5+1 in December, I'll get on this train with you.
What specifically would you have done differently to this point? They've been going 9-deep, and Tatum played one 41 minute game in a week.
My hot take: Hauser will be considered a good defender by the end of the season.
NBA-wide hot take: Miami should trade Butler now (though I hope they don't). He looks a bit toasty.
NBA-wide hot take: Miami should trade Butler now (though I hope they don't). He looks a bit toasty.
Jimmy did not have more than a few games last season where he performed as poorly as the first 3 active games thus far.
He started off pretty hot last season and in '21-'22 he was great one game then mediocre the next early on. In any case, I don't think he'll fall completely off and will be close to his typical averages by the end. But it won't be enough for this Heat team without a bit more help.
Fun Butler fact: Before this year, his career ppg in October was 20.1. October is the highest scoring month of his career (for the regular season at least).
Interesting. I thought it was the opposite. Not sure where I got that perception.
I think the bench has two distinct problems . First, Hauser and Pritchard have not played up to expectations. Second, they don't work as a unit because it's almost entirely comprised of complementary players brought in to complement the Top 6 but lacking the NBA tools to work together as a unit 7-11. Other benches may have an emerging young player or a veteran scorer in their ranks that can create their own shot. This Celtics team has used those types of assets to acquire the Top 6 they have. Now they have a couple energy guys, a couple floor spacers, a tall guy that can knockdown a jumpshot, a ballhandler that's more of a shooter, and a ball handler who isn't very good at it. These are all guys who can fit in and contribute around the Top 6, but they are not guys that fit together as a unit.
There's something in what you're saying here. And it seems consistent with CJM's approach to have starters on the floor always and to spread them around with those role players s.t. we never have the old-school situation of "the bench is in, the starters are out". In that old school "bench unit" approach, you are correct that our bench is poorly constructed for that. I just don't think that Joe intends to play it that way, excepting blowouts like last night of course.
Agree with the above that our bench as a unit will never look that great, and that that fact doesn't really matter. Still, Hauser and Pritchard both have to shoot 40% from 3 for them to be useful bench players, and so far, they're 4-25. It's a long season and the Celtics shouldn't be overly concerned with their regular season record (none of the recent playoff teams have had too much trouble winning road playoff games) so they'll get a decently long rope as clearly the team thinks they are the 7th and 8th guys, but at some point Brissett/Stevens/Banton/Svi will get more run. Or Brad will have to make another move.
I'm less worried about Hauser/Pritchard than I am about Kornet and his spot. As the season progresses and Horford/KP get hurt or need rest the 3rd center spot will be more critical, and he's looked awful. Everyone noted that he looked slow in the preseason but honestly I thought that was largely because we now have another giant white guy on the court that happens to move unnaturally well for his size, and Kornet suffers in direct comparison. He's basically been the slowest guy on the court every time he's checked into an NBA game for his entire career, but it seems like he's always out of position now. Far worse than last year.
I'm less worried about Hauser/Pritchard than I am about Kornet and his spot. As the season progresses and Horford/KP get hurt or need rest the 3rd center spot will be more critical, and he's looked awful. Everyone noted that he looked slow in the preseason but honestly I thought that was largely because we now have another giant white guy on the court that happens to move unnaturally well for his size, and Kornet suffers in direct comparison. He's basically been the slowest guy on the court every time he's checked into an NBA game for his entire career, but it seems like he's always out of position now. Far worse than last year.
Yes, Kornet looks like total garbage. That's the easiest position to upgrade, so I assume it will happen at some point.
I was wondering if the starters had picked up a lot of speed playing with Porzingis, and never adjusted back to Kornet's speed, but it does feel like Kornet isn't as quick as last year.
Feels like a spot we'd want Theis back for.
Agree with all this and @jasail makes a good point about 7-12 not really being a functioning unit.
I can't believe I'm saying this (because all summer I was fine with LK) but we've seen enough. Kornet has absolutely lost a step. He is NOT: getting to 50/50 balls on the glass, challenging shots in the paint, creating tip-outs, catching bounce passes, or cutting to the rim. Frankly, he is such a klutz he's probably incapable of even setting a pick or screen for a ball handler without fouling. We've all seen BIG men spoil and this is what they look like. Luke is in real danger of getting cut without a gtd deal.
CJM's bench work ahead:
1. Start giving minutes to Queta (as Beef Center) & Brissett/Stevens (as small-ball 5s)
2. Hauser is bench WING-shooter #1 but won't be shocked if CJM starts sprinkling in Svi. Sam's contract will have value if he gets back to last year's level. He could be that piece that gets Brad a 5.
3. Brissett is bench WING-defender #1 but like Stevens eventually takes over that role.
4. Least importantly, PP is ball-handler #3/4 and probably doesn't have a playoff role anyway with Jrue, White, and Tatum all capable of being lead ball-handlers when it matters.
It's literally the thread title. This should be a safe space for posters with irrational/knee-jerk reactions
We do have the preseason.
Plus nobody is commenting on rookies. We have years of watching these players to see how they are moving (in Kornet's case)
I guess I'm affirming the high heat levels of the hot takes in here.It's literally the thread title. This should be a safe space for posters with irrational/knee-jerk reactions
We do have the preseason.
Plus nobody is commenting on rookies. We have years of watching these players to see how they are moving (in Kornet's case)
I love Kornet y'all are so mean to him and I'll vote for him for the all star game to spite all of you.
Svi as a starter for eight meaningless games for the Hornets last season: 34.2 minutes, 17.3 ppg, 4.3 rebounds, and 5.3 assists. He also shot 49% from three as a reserve last season. He has shown some other offensive skills besides shooting.
If Pritchard and/or Hauser continues to struggle, Svi may be a solid alternative.
If Pritchard and/or Hauser continues to struggle, Svi may be a solid alternative.
Continuing on the bench/roster construction discussion...There are only 240 minutes per night to dole out. The Jays will give you just under 40 per night, DWhite and Holiday are good for about 30-35, KP is probably coming in right around 30, and Al's gonna get about 25. That leaves about 40 minutes to split up among the bench mob. That means most bench driven line ups will still probably include two of the Top 6. They're not built to play as a unit. They're built with players who feature one plus tool that can fit in around the starters. I expect the bench will be ugly in blowouts for this reason and I expect this to be even more pronounced early in the season when they haven't built any chemistry.
I terms of improving bench rotations, we are primarily looking at how to get better 7-10. This group is currently PP, Hauser, Kornet, and Brissett. IMO:
I terms of improving bench rotations, we are primarily looking at how to get better 7-10. This group is currently PP, Hauser, Kornet, and Brissett. IMO:
- PP has the longest leash because he's can do a couple things, he's a passable NBA player, they have deep depth in front of him, and no depth behind him. Ultimately, I'd be surprised if they brought someone on to play in front of him. He'd have to be abysmal.
- I think 3rd big is probably where they look to upgrade via trade or buyout later this year. Unfortunately, I think it's Kornet's job until that time. Yes, he's been terrible, but I have a pretty dim view of the depth behind him. Maybe Queta will prove me wrong when his foot gets better.
- I like Sam and when his shot falls he's a legit bench player and when his shot doesn't fall he's still a passable team defender. That said, they've got a lot of depth at bench wing. Brissett, Stevens, and Svi are all guys who can take those limited minutes and make an impact on any given night. Given the depth, I think CJM will experiment here based on match ups and in-game adjustments. I think an in-season acquisition is possible here depending on how this group of players performs and who is available (and willing to come and take limited minutes).
Pretty good summary. Injuries and rest will open up a lot more minutes though. I'm actually most concerned with the ball handler spot, because I'm not convinced PP is really the guy the need and there's nothing behind him. An injury to Holiday or White and it's looking very thin there. Wing is the least of my concerns.
The Celtics are soft. That's the hallmark of the Tatum/Brown Celtics. Teams like Orlando and Miami, that rely on effort and toughness and compete level and fighting for every loose ball rather than trying out out-talent the C's will always have the advantage. They had more toughness under Ime, so they had their best year under him.
I hate to say it, but the Tatum/Brown duo has always had a very strong "front-runner" vibe. The way they didn't threaten whatsoever in the fourth is pretty on-brand for what I've seen over the last four years. When they meet adversity, I don't expect them to find ways to keep the team afloat. That's a problem for a team that's short on depth and has durability questions.
As for the depth issues, the only way forward is to trade Jaylen for multiple pieces imo. See if you can get an athletic rotation big and a 3-D wing for Brown when he's able to be moved. There's just too many durability questions and too few NBA talents on this roster to withstand long absences to any of the top six.
As for the depth issues, the only way forward is to trade Jaylen for multiple pieces imo. See if you can get an athletic rotation big and a 3-D wing for Brown when he's able to be moved. There's just too many durability questions and too few NBA talents on this roster to withstand long absences to any of the top six.
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They had 2 out and another playing injured in the 2nd half when it fell apart.
I don’t think Al is done, but he might just need to take every 2nd or 3rd game off at this point. And I have low confidence he’ll hold up late in the playoffs If they grind out 6-7 game series that run into the next one, as is their custom.
Some real short memories on this board.
This is the same core that, two years ago, won games 6 and 7 against the defending champion Bucks then game 7 against the Heat. Then last year they win games 6 and 7 against Philly, and almost pull off the historic comeback against the Heat until Tatum got injured.
But sure, they're a bunch of spineless, front running worms.
This is the same core that, two years ago, won games 6 and 7 against the defending champion Bucks then game 7 against the Heat. Then last year they win games 6 and 7 against Philly, and almost pull off the historic comeback against the Heat until Tatum got injured.
But sure, they're a bunch of spineless, front running worms.
Yeah, their inability to meed adversity is why they always crumble in the playoffs when things get hard. No wait, they're 8-2 when facing elimination over the last 2 years. The Tatum/Brown lead Celtics has never been a team unable to get off the mat when hit with adversity, if anything the reverse has been their problem (playing down to opponents and not being able to finish teams off).
This team isn't perfect, but they lost a game on the road, against a good squad with whom they clearly have matchup issues (they've now lost 4 straight to Orlando), while missing two of their top four guys. Every shot was hitting the front rim, which happens sometimes. They've played an incredibly difficult schedule thus far (5th in opposing SOS entering today, and no team has played more games on the road). Maybe we can avoid the baseless personality judgements and just focus on what we can actually see and measure.