Hot Stove Wishes

radsoxfan

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chrisfont9 said:
 
2) Chris Davis' OB% at different ages:
age 23: .284 (419 PAs)
age 24: .279 (136 PAs)
age 25: .305 (210 PAs)
age 26: .326 (562 PAs) (33 HRs)
This year: .370
 
Just sayin. Maybe WMB isn't Davis, but it sure would suck if he was, and the Sox became Texas in this analogy.
 
I know you were mostly just throwing the Chris Davis thing out there to say WMB could improve.  And I don't doubt that's possible.
 
But minor league career stat lines...
 
Davis in 2007 PA: .318/.375/.597/.971
WMB in 1902 PA: .275/.332/.455/.788
 
There isn't really any reason to think Middlebrooks are Davis are on anything resembling the same level.
 

wine111

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Oct 26, 2008
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curly2 said:
I would much rather see a two-year deal with Ruiz than a five-year deal with McCann, especially with two legitimate catching prospects in the pipeline with Vazquez and Swihart.
 
Ruiz has a little pop and he may hit for higher average in Fenway with help from our left field wall.  Ruiz might get the edge with less years and money and no loss of a draft pick.  But McCann has proven capability to work with young pitchers (Medlen, Teheran and Minor) and that is important.  The young pitchers we have on the way up would certainly benefit from McCann's experience. So it's not a slam dunk rejection of McCann for me.         
 

Savin Hillbilly

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Bosox4416 said:
 
I love the idea of stacking the farm system, but I mean, would we really be comfortable with a lineup like this to start the year?
 
CF Bradley
RF Victorino
2B Pedroia
DH Ortiz
3B Middlebrooks
1B Carp
SS Bogaerts
LF Nava
C Ruiz/Hannigan
 
I'm comfortable with it if the Sox FO is comfortable with it. It all hinges on whether JBJ and Bogaerts are ready to assume full-time roles. The baseball ops people hopefully have a pretty good idea at this point, and their decisions over the next couple of months will reflect that.
 
When you're building a homegrown team, there will be times when you have to entrust important roles to young players whose ability to thrive in those roles is not yet a given. You do that when you think those players are ready for the challenge. Those lineups will inevitably look a little thin before the fact; if the kids rise to the challenge, they will look less thin in retrospect. If not, that may not be the team's best year. But sometimes taking that chance is the right move, and I can't think of a better time to do it than following a championship.
 
Certainly they should have fallback plans, which is why I have lobbied for replacing one of the LF platoon with somebody like Chris Young who can act as a plan B in center field.
 

Jack Rabbit Slim

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  1. After seeing how valuable it is to have an average bat/gold glove defense in RF, my hope is to keep Ellsbury in CF and break JBJ in as Victorino's replacement.  I would negotiate around 5/100 with Ells, but if he has 7 year offers I have no problem handing CF to JBJ.  Either way, it seems one of Nava/Gomes/Carp does not fit on the roster:
 
  • If Ellsbury is re-signed, JBJ becomes the 4th OF and either Nava or Carp is gone with the other backing up 1B.  
  • If JBJ is in CF, they need to sign a 4th OF that can backup CF/RF and Gomes or Nava goes depending on the handedness
      The only way I can see them keeping everyone is to keep JBJ in AAA (Ells re-signs), or find a AAAA OF to stash in AAA as insurance.
 
2. Firstbase is much simpler for me: Napoli or Hart with an edge toward Nap if he can be had for 2 years.
 
3. I think Drew will get too much to stay so the left side of the infield is X/WMB for at least the first 2 months.
 
4.  I would be fine with 2/$18-20 deals to Salty or Ruiz, or a trade for Hanigan.
 
5. Sign a setup man or former closer as Koji insurance.
 
6. Shop Dempster and Peavy and make a deal for the best offer.
 
7. Sign a strong defender as a utility infielder (Brendan Ryan)
 
Unfortunately that would pretty much put the payroll at the limit leaving little room for a midseason acquisition, but I think this team has enough depth at every position but 3rd base to make this a minor concern.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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Bosox4416 said:
 
Although I like Uribe, I don't think he'd be anything more than a utility infielder for us. He posted a 25.6% walk rate in April this year, but ended up with a 5.0% for the rest of the season.  He also had a .322 BABIP in play this year, compared to a career BABIP of .282, and his career OBP is .299. Outstanding defense, though, and he was worth 5.1 wins last year, so obviously there is some value to be had..
 
Good points.  I live in NL West land and its my humble opinion that if the Sox signed Juan Uribe, his play would generate the most negative posts this board has seen since...well, maybe ever.   There are rumors that when Uribe retires, he will take his unique ability to violently swing and miss at anything within a square mile of the strike zone to help T. Boone Pickens revive his dream of a viable wind farm project.
 

Savin Hillbilly

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radsoxfan said:
 
I know you were mostly just throwing the Chris Davis thing out there to say WMB could improve.  And I don't doubt that's possible.
 
But minor league career stat lines...
 
Davis in 2007 PA: .318/.375/.597/.971
WMB in 1902 PA: .275/.332/.455/.788
 
There isn't really any reason to think Middlebrooks are Davis are on anything resembling the same level.
 
Note, though, that their minor league IsoD's were identical, at .057. The differences between them as minor leaguers were mostly about batted-ball results, not plate discipline.
 

lxt

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Red(s)HawksFan said:
 
No one is making the comparison to say that JBJ is going to be the next Pedroia.  The comparison is more to emphasize that JBJ's limited MLB production so far is in no way predictive of anything.  All this talk that "he's not ready" is based entirely on his short stints playing for the big club in 2013.
 
If Ellsbury signs elsewhere, Jackie Bradley Jr is going to be the starting center fielder for the Red Sox on Opening Day.  He's not going to be eased into it.  He's not going to be a platoon player or the 4th outfielder.  It's starter or bust, at least for the first three months or so of the season.
Thank you for saying what I thought I said in your 1st paragraph. I guess I said it poorly and your clarity should set things straight.
 
Again, I like Bradley. I saw some things that looked promising. I think he will be a solid player but may be not 2014. You may be right in that if given plenty of playing time, at least during the 1st half of the season, he will show us he is ready to play every day at the ML level. However, it may be a tad difficult for the team to adjust if he does not.
 
I prefer picking up someone like Bourjos because he has already shown a ML ability (Got pushed out by Trout when he came up & sent into oblivion when Hamilton was signed), he is not expensive and the Sox can cut him lose after 2014 with little effort. If Bradley does become the "Bernie Williams" type player I envision (my hope rather than a belief) then again Bourjos can help with a "Deadline" trade or ride the bench.
 

wine111

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CaskNFappin said:
If anyone can suggest any attainable middle-of-the-order bats in the event Napoli leaves, I'm all ears. Aside from Trumbo here's what I can conjure up.

Nava/Carp/Hassan

Billy Butler

Matt Adams (if Beltran is retained)

Corey Hart

Kendrys Morales

I just don't see a lot of help being available in that area.
I think Billy Butler playing 81 games in Fenway as a good bat in his prime becomes a potential masher with a good lineup around him.  No Lester, C. Buchholz, Bogaerts, or Owens in any trade for Butler, but I'd certainly kick the trade tires with KC.  Butler is signed through 2014 with a team option for 2015.     
 

radsoxfan

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Savin Hillbilly said:
 
Note, though, that their minor league IsoD's were identical, at .057. The differences between them as minor leaguers were mostly about batted-ball results, not plate discipline.
 
True... the main point I was trying to make it that Chris Davis was so clearly a superior hitter to Will Middlebrooks that I'm not sure we should be looking to him for any sort of evidence that Will can make similar improvements. 
 
I'm sure there are examples of sub .800 OPS guys improving their plate discipline also, so feel free to throw those out there are a best case scenario for Middlebrooks.  But looking at an elite minor league player, and saying Will could get better plate discipline like he did in the majors doesn't seem that useful.
 

chrisfont9

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radsoxfan said:
 
I know you were mostly just throwing the Chris Davis thing out there to say WMB could improve.  And I don't doubt that's possible.
 
But minor league career stat lines...
 
Davis in 2007 PA: .318/.375/.597/.971
WMB in 1902 PA: .275/.332/.455/.788
 
There isn't really any reason to think Middlebrooks are Davis are on anything resembling the same level.
Fair enough. Frankly, if Middlebrooks' ob% reaches his minor league level, as Davis has reached his, WMB should be a pretty solid contributor. Maybe more the 35-HR level than the 50+.
 

billy ashley

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I like Middlebrooks and believe he has a shot at being an average regular, possibly. However, I think we're really overlooking how bad his current K/BB numbers are.

Here are the players who since 1950 have 1,000 PAs, a BB% < 6% and K% > 25% and a wRC+ of > than 100.


There are also several guys in the same neighborhood if you give or take a percentage point in either direction with BBs or Ks:
  • Bo Jackson
  • Chris Davis
  • Pete Incavigla
  • Josh Phelps
  • Marcus Thames
  • Mark Trumbo (Trumbo actually comes the closest, BBing a playtrt 6.3% of the time with a K rate right at 25%)
  • Ron Kittle
  • Ryan Rayburn
  • Chris Johnson
  • Bobby Darwin
Admitting that this isn't exactly in-depth analysis, it looks to me that Middlebrooks has 3 routes to being a credible 1st division starter:
 
  1. Make more contact without sacrificing his already low BB rate. If Middlebrooks could tighten up the K's to the point that he's "only" whiffing 20% of the time, he shouldn't have too much trouble putting up an offensive line around league average. If he does this and plays acceptable defense at 3b, he's a worthwhile starter.
  2. Draw more walks, ideally keeping his K rate under 30%. If Middlebrooks walks 10% of the time and strikes out about between 25-30% of the time, he'd probably settle into good Russell Braynan/Mark Reynolds levels of production. Braynan and Reynolds would be worthwhile starters if they weren't terrible fielders.
  3. Demonstrate 70+ power. Bo Jackson and Davis have been good offensive players despite their low contact rates and low walk rates. While Davis' career line is heavily skewed by this past season, his 2012 season probably serves as a good example of what Middlebrooks could do with an uptick in power. At 3b, with passable defense, that's a good player.
I don't know how terribly likely it is that Middlebrooks can do any of these three things. If he were able to somehow do 2 at the same time, he'd be an exceptional player. However, unfortunately, if he doesn't see any change, I'm thinking he's a bench player/ 2nd division starter by the time he hits arbitration. 

 
 

lxt

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billy ashley said:
I like Middlebrooks and believe he has a shot at being an average regular, possibly. However, I think we're really overlooking how bad his current K/BB numbers are.

[Cut for brevity]
 
 
Admitting that this isn't exactly in-depth analysis, it looks to me that Middlebrooks has 3 routes to being a credible 1st division starter:
 
  1. Make more contact without sacrificing his already low BB rate. If Middlebrooks could tighten up the K's to the point that he's "only" whiffing 20% of the time, he shouldn't have too much trouble putting up an offensive line around league average. If he does this and plays acceptable defense at 3b, he's a worthwhile starter.
  2. Draw more walks, ideally keeping his K rate under 30%. If Middlebrooks walks 10% of the time and strikes out about between 25-30% of the time, he'd probably settle into good Russell Braynan/Mark Reynolds levels of production. Braynan and Reynolds would be worthwhile starters if they weren't terrible fielders.
  3. Demonstrate 70+ power. Bo Jackson and Davis have been good offensive players despite their low contact rates and low walk rates. While Davis' career line is heavily skewed by this past season, his 2012 season probably serves as a good example of what Middlebrooks could do with an uptick in power. At 3b, with passable defense, that's a good player.
I don't know how terribly likely it is that Middlebrooks can do any of these three things. If he were able to somehow do 2 at the same time, he'd be an exceptional player. However, unfortunately, if he doesn't see any change, I'm thinking he's a bench player/ 2nd division starter by the time he hits arbitration. 
 
I think we are forgetting that prior to Middlebrooks injury he was hitting better (Avg. was .288, although still a poor SO/BB ratio but 50pts higher OBP & a good 150 better OPS). It seems after the injury he's been struggling. It may be like Ortiz when he hurt his wrist/hand it took him a season and half to get back to his normal ways, awesome. Middlebrooks stance and swing seem a little off which most likely is frustrating him and has him chasing. I wonder with a little more time, some work with the coaches and another season he'll be the hitter he was before getting hurt.
 

Savin Hillbilly

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billy ashley said:
I like Middlebrooks and believe he has a shot at being an average regular, possibly. However, I think we're really overlooking how bad his current K/BB numbers are.

Here are the players who since 1950 have 1,000 PAs, a BB% < 6% and K% > 25% and a wRC+ of > than 100.
 
<snip>
 
Admitting that this isn't exactly in-depth analysis, it looks to me that Middlebrooks has 3 routes to being a credible 1st division starter:
 
  1. Make more contact without sacrificing his already low BB rate. If Middlebrooks could tighten up the K's to the point that he's "only" whiffing 20% of the time, he shouldn't have too much trouble putting up an offensive line around league average. If he does this and plays acceptable defense at 3b, he's a worthwhile starter.
  2. Draw more walks, ideally keeping his K rate under 30%. If Middlebrooks walks 10% of the time and strikes out about between 25-30% of the time, he'd probably settle into good Russell Braynan/Mark Reynolds levels of production. Braynan and Reynolds would be worthwhile starters if they weren't terrible fielders.
  3. Demonstrate 70+ power. Bo Jackson and Davis have been good offensive players despite their low contact rates and low walk rates. While Davis' career line is heavily skewed by this past season, his 2012 season probably serves as a good example of what Middlebrooks could do with an uptick in power. At 3b, with passable defense, that's a good player.
I don't know how terribly likely it is that Middlebrooks can do any of these three things. If he were able to somehow do 2 at the same time, he'd be an exceptional player. However, unfortunately, if he doesn't see any change, I'm thinking he's a bench player/ 2nd division starter by the time he hits arbitration.
 
 
A few thoughts:
 
1) Middlebrooks' power isn't far out of the Jackson/Davis range already. His HR rate per PA so far is 4.9%, and his HR/FB is 18.9%; Davis' numbers after two years (slightly more PA, six months younger) were 5.2% and 14.2%. There aren't HR/FB numbers for Jackson's early years, but his HR rate after two seasons (same age as WMB, slightly fewer PA) was 4.6%. Of course we don't know if WMB's power will continue to develop, but there's nothing in his record so far to make it an unreasonable hope on the upside.
 
2) Middlebrooks' K rate through 2 half-years is 25.5%. It may or may not get significantly better, but it would be pretty bad luck if it got worse. So using >25% guys as a comp seems a bit misleading. He's not as extreme a K guy as, for instance, Davis or Jackson.
 
3) It's a little early to tell how good a defensive player WMB will be, but many of the guys on your list, as far as I can remember, were defensive butchers, and if they had been league-average defensive players at a mid-spectrum position like 3B, would have been considerably more valuable.
 

Doctor G

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WMB has to understand that when he goes into an offensive drought the best thing he can do is maintain a disciplined approach. 
Even this year he seemed to believe that pulling the ball for one long ball would fix everything. 
 

Rasputin

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If Cecchini continues to perform as expected, all Middlebrooks has to do is not suck too much for one season.
 

Yaz4Ever

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Bosox4416 said:
 
I love the idea of stacking the farm system, but I mean, would we really be comfortable with a lineup like this to start the year?
 
CF Bradley
RF Victorino
2B Pedroia
DH Ortiz
3B Middlebrooks
1B Carp
SS Bogaerts
LF Nava
C Ruiz/Hannigan
 
Even then we'd be thrusting Bradley into the leadoff hole right away, and we're losing the production of both Nava and Ellsbury.. I don't know, it just seems on the weak side to me.
I could live with that lineup.  I'd like an upgrade to Carp, but Bogaerts and Middlebrooks should give more offense than we received on the left side this year.  I'll miss Ellsbury very much, but I'm high on JBJ.  If our pitching is as good as it was this year (pen included), that lineup will keep us in the game.  We might not lead the world in runs scored, but I'll take 2-1 and 3-2 wins any day.
 

FanSinceBoggs

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I would rather have Loney, cheaper contract, and the draft pick than Napoli, more expensive contract, and no compensation pick. 
 
For defensive reasons, I would rather have Loney than Carp at 1b. 
 
The Red Sox can go into next season with a similar group of position players.  The biggest difference: Loney replaces Napoli, Bogaerts replaces Drew, and Ellsbury is gone.
 
1b: Loney
2b: Pedroia
SS: Bogaerts
3b: Middlebrooks
C: ???
LF: Nava or Carp/Gomes
CF: Bradley
RF: Victorino
DH: Ortiz
 
Victorino
Bradley
Pedroia
Ortiz
Bogaerts
Loney
Nava or Carp/Gomes
Middlebrooks
Catcher ???
 
I suppose this would represent an offensive downgrade, but not necessarily due to Napoli's absence as much as Ellsbury's.  As Yaz pointed out above, maybe Bogaerts and Middlebrooks can compensate for the decline in expected production.
 

FanSinceBoggs

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Savin Hillbilly said:
 
 
When you're building a homegrown team, there will be times when you have to entrust important roles to young players whose ability to thrive in those roles is not yet a given. You do that when you think those players are ready for the challenge. Those lineups will inevitably look a little thin before the fact; if the kids rise to the challenge, they will look less thin in retrospect. If not, that may not be the team's best year. But sometimes taking that chance is the right move, and I can't think of a better time to do it than following a championship.
 
 
Agreed.  And there is risk involved in any decision.  There is risk involved in giving the starting CF job to Bradley; there is risk involved in giving Ellsbury 140 million dollars.  The former might entail less risk. . . .
 

wine111

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Oct 26, 2008
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Bosox4416 said:
Bosox4416 said:
 
I love the idea of stacking the farm system, but I mean, would we really be comfortable with a lineup like this to start the year?
 
CF Bradley
RF Victorino
2B Pedroia
DH Ortiz
3B Middlebrooks
1B Carp
SS Bogaerts
LF Nava
C Ruiz/Hannigan
 
Even then we'd be thrusting Bradley into the leadoff hole right away, and we're losing the production of both Nava and Ellsbury.. I don't know, it just seems on the weak side to me.
I think I would switch Nava to leadoff and Bradley to 8th for 2014.  Nava can get on base while Bradley needs to learn plate discipline.  But Ortiz is so due for a decline that a strong bat should be added to hit behind him.  Perhaps Billy Butler, Carlos Beltran or Mark Trumbo.  Middlebrooks or Carp behind Ortiz would likely mean that Ortiz would see very few pitches to hit.  It will be difficult to match last year's production. 
 

lxt

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To sum things up: (At this point)
 
FA:
  • Ellsbury is gone but we all wish he would stay for a reasonable amount of money & years - JBJ will take his spot unless he falls flat then Victorino or a FA (Young spoken of often) can step in. Who takes of RF seems to be up in the air - Beltran seems to have faded as an option
  • Drew is gone as he'll want too much money and/or too many years and Bogaerts ready to take over anyway - everyone agrees that another versatile IF is needed to cover SS/2B - Ryan Brendan mentioned often.
  • Napoli will return, most likely for two years but if he left so be it - Carp seems to be the choice to take his spot with Nava backing him up
  • Salty should be back but for how long and how much is hotly debate ... if not either Ruiz (defensive talents) or McCann
Starters:
  • We have a deep group of starters with Lester, Buchholz, Lackey, Doubront, Peavy & Dempster with Workman, RDLR, Webster, Wright, Ranaudo, Barnes & Morales available for spot starts.
  • It seems to be agreed that Dempster should go into the pen for LR.
  • If the Sox make a trade Dempster is everyone's choice but Peavy can also go. Everyone seems to agree Workman can take the fifth spot if both Peavy and Dempster are traded.
  • RDLR seems to be the 1st choice to bring up unless Barnes or Ranaudo push him aside. Webster, Wright & Morales have to prove they should have RDLR spot.
  • There has been some talk of adding a pitcher with Hudson getting mentioned and on occasion Tanaka
Pen:
  • It seems everyone would like one more arm. Generally, everyone seems to want a former closer or setup man to add flexibility to the 8th inning and cover an injury to Uehara.
  • No one speaks of Bailey coming back.
Lineup:
  • 1B - Napoli/Carp/Nava
  • 2B - Pedroia/FA IF - Ryan Brendan seems to be popular
  • SS - Bogaerts/FA IF again Ryan Brendan seems to be the preferred choice
  • 3B - Middlebrooks
  • C - Salty/Ruiz/McCann
  • LF - Gomes/Nava/Carp
  • CF - JBJ/Victorino ... maybe a FA added - Chris Young seems to be the preferred choice
  • RF - Victorino
  • DH - Papi
Bench:
  • Nava - LF/1B/RF
  • Gomes - LF
  • Ross - C
  • Carp - 1B/LF
  • FA IF - Ryan Brendan is the name that keeps popping up   
Did I miss anything? Is there a correction needed? Feel free to correct this summarization.   
 

ScubaSteveAvery

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lxt said:
I think Pedroia is a phenomenon onto himself. There are few players like him in baseball. Is Bradley another Pedroia, I can't say. He may have improved at the plate if he was given the time Franconia gave Peddy. I'm not sold yet. Going forward, say a year or two and I think he is the Sox CF.
 
Chris Young is not my choice. He doesn't have the plate patients I think the Sox are trying to build back into the line up. His OBP and SO/Walk ratios are poor. He AB remind me of Salty, plenty of power with SO & a low OBP. With a catcher I can live with that. He does have speed. I do admit his glove is good and he would be a solid defensive OF. I just not sold on him being the solution.
 
Not that Young is the best choice, but the idea that he doesn't have plate patience is wrong.  Last year he saw 4.15 P/PA (career 4.05) which is way higher than Ellsbury and the AL league average.  Last year his BB% was 9.6% (career 10%) against an AL league average of 8.1% (Ellsbury had a 7.4% walk rate).   His wOBA was down last year (.289 vs career .325).  He had the lowest BABIP of his career last year without a drop in LD%, and a  slight drop in GB%.  He is exactly the kind of player that fits into the Red Sox approach.  He sees a ton of pitches and walks a lot.  If his BABIP rebounds to career levels of ~.260 then he will be a very useful player for cheap.  I don't think I want him starting full time, but wanted to dispel the idea that he doesn't have plate patience. 
 

sackamano

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lxt said:
To sum things up: (At this point)
 
 
Did I miss anything? Is there a correction needed? Feel free to correct this summarization.   
 
Yeah, I guess that's it.
 
Let's start the 2014 season. Everything seems settled, a couple of weeks into the off-season.
 

lxt

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ScubaSteveAvery said:
 
Not that Young is the best choice, but the idea that he doesn't have plate patience is wrong.  Last year he saw 4.15 P/PA (career 4.05) which is way higher than Ellsbury and the AL league average.  Last year his BB% was 9.6% (career 10%) against an AL league average of 8.1% (Ellsbury had a 7.4% walk rate).   His wOBA was down last year (.289 vs career .325).  He had the lowest BABIP of his career last year without a drop in LD%, and a  slight drop in GB%.  He is exactly the kind of player that fits into the Red Sox approach.  He sees a ton of pitches and walks a lot.  If his BABIP rebounds to career levels of ~.260 then he will be a very useful player for cheap.  I don't think I want him starting full time, but wanted to dispel the idea that he doesn't have plate patience. 
I agree a 10%BB rate is okay but he also has a 23%SO rate and a career .315 OBP with a .745OPS. I'll agree he hits with power - 46% ExBH with some speed but it's his defense that I like more than what he does with a bat. He SO outs almost 3 times as many times as he walks with a career high of 165 with Arizona. Scary numbers. If he played everyday he'd be competing with Salty & Napoli for most SO.
 
I understand we're talking about a backup role and when we consider this Young seems to be okay. However, as an everyday player I'd be concern. If JBJ proves not to be ready and/or Victorino spends an extended period on the DL then I'm concerned.
 
To be honest I was concerned when the Sox picked up Gomez but he proved to be just fine in his role. So you may be right, Young may be a fine fit for the Sox. I just get real nervous about low OBP and high SO rates.
 

Dahabenzapple2

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I don't understand why anyone would consider Mark Trumbo a strong bat to bat behind Papi

Maybe I'm missing something except I know I'm not missing his standard .290ish OBA
 

benhogan

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lxt, good summation.
 
small corrections: It's Brendan Ryan and its Gomes not Gomez.
 
maybe add Hannigan to C options
 

lxt

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Sep 12, 2012
525
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benhogan said:
lxt, good summation.
 
It's Brendan Ryan and maybe add Hannigan to C options
Thanks. Thanks for the correction - brain cramp, senior moment. Hannigan has been mention, more so recently. Not sure he would compete with the times Ruiz & McCann have been mentioned but let's add him.
 
C - Salty/Ruiz/McCann/Hannigan
 

TOleary25

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Sep 30, 2011
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lxt said:
I understand we're talking about a backup role and when we consider this Young seems to be okay. However, as an everyday player I'd be concern. If JBJ proves not to be ready and/or Victorino spends an extended period on the DL then I'm concerned.
 
To be honest I was concerned when the Sox picked up Gomez but he proved to be just fine in his role. So you may be right, Young may be a fine fit for the Sox. I just get real nervous about low OBP and high SO rates.
 
No one's saying he should have a full time job but if you have concerns about JBJ then Young would be a nice backup option to have. Typically you're going to have concerns if your 5th outfielder is playing everyday, but he would provide flexibility that the Sox don't currently have. He hits lefties (.837 career OPS) and plays all outfield positions well. I know you like Bourjos, but the Sox probably have to give up a quality prospect to get him. Young probably won't get a big contract and he doesn't cost anything in terms of prospects.
 

PedroKsBambino

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Dahabenzapple2 said:
I don't understand why anyone would consider Mark Trumbo a strong bat to bat behind Papi

Maybe I'm missing something except I know I'm not missing his standard .290ish OBA
 
I think the people saying that are old-school guys like Cafardo who look at the HR/SLG and get mesmerized.
 
I see very, very little chance the Sox view Trumbo as more than a platoon guy or bench bat, and they aren't going to get him for what they'll trade for that type of asset.
 
Just because there's media guys, or people here, saying it doesn't mean the Red Sox view the world that way in the least!
 

YTF

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Devizier said:
After some time, I keep coming back to contingencies. I'd like the Red Sox to have them.
 
If the Sox let Napoli go and Carp flops, they can turn to Nava. (They don't really have a contingency for Hassan if they go the platoon route).
If the Sox let Ellsbury go and Bradley flops, their built-in contingency is to weaken the outfield defense at two positions and dig into their outfield depth.
If the Sox let Saltalamacchia go, then their built-in contingency is to expand the roles of guys who are essentially backup catchers.
 
The Sox don't really have a say in Drew. He's gone. They can't give him the role he wants and probably not the money. So I hope they can get a good 3B/SS backup. Maybe that's Holt.
 
So in the end, I think Napoli is the lowest priority for the team among the free agents. I'd really like them to keep Ellsbury, because he's a top three player at his position and there are few imaginable scenarios where they can replace his production. The reason why you have cost controlled guys is so you can afford the Ellsburies of the world. I'd also like them to keep Saltalamacchia, but his production is more replaceable.
 
 
Not totally disagreeing with what you say here, but there are lots of variables that affect all of this. I agree with the idea that you have to have a Plan A, Plan B and Plan C and I'm sure the Sox do have contingency plans as do many teams and THAT'S the issue. Several teams looking at the same free agents all with different ideas of cost and worth in terms of need, money and years. For the most part players are in the drivers seat with most of the high profiles being able to pick and choose where they go among several suitors. To some extent, they can afford to wait on decisions while teams have to decide if they can wait as well or if they have waited long enough and need to move on because of price or the potential to miss out on both THAT player and the backup plan. Too many variables as far as other teams involved in the process and how far they are willing to go to get the same guy you're after. If you go the trade route, again you may be up against other teams interested in the same player OR you may not have the package (or may not be willing to give up the package) that a potential trade partner deems acceptable. So while I'm guessing the Sox do have contingency plans it may not all shake out as they or we hope it might. It's not like you or I needing or wanting to purchase the same item from Home Depot, being able to walk in there anytime we like and each getting what we need with  plenty more available to others at the same price. That said, let's agree that Napoli MAY be the lowest priority, if you have the opportunity to sign him at a price you deem acceptable, don't you do it rather than risk missing out on Ellsbury AND Napoli?
 

lxt

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TOleary25 said:
 
No one's saying he should have a full time job but if you have concerns about JBJ then Young would be a nice backup option to have. Typically you're going to have concerns if your 5th outfielder is playing everyday, but he would provide flexibility that the Sox don't currently have. He hits lefties (.837 career OPS) and plays all outfield positions well. I know you like Bourjos, but the Sox probably have to give up a quality prospect to get him. Young probably won't get a big contract and he doesn't cost anything in terms of prospects.
I can't argue with this point of view. Saving prospects and getting a solid backup for reasonable FA money is never a bad thing. I'm slowly beginning to agree with option. Who knows we may have another Gomez who is not great but sure can come up with the stuff the team needs when it counts.
 

lxt

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Question for the forum. If we don't sign Napoli who do we get to protect Ortiz's bat? Without solid protection behind him Ortiz's effectiveness will drop as teams will just pitch around him. The 2013 team had player producing up and down the lineup and the fear of Napoli catching fire keep teams honest. However with Ellsbury, Drew and potentially Napoli gone their is some grounds for concern. I know their is plenty of potential in JBJ & Bogaerts but can they provide enough? If Carp or Nava play 1B regularly do they provide enough "punch"?
 

Puffy

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lxt said:
Question for the forum. If we don't sign Napoli who do we get to protect Ortiz's bat? Without solid protection behind him Ortiz's effectiveness will drop as teams will just pitch around him. The 2013 team had player producing up and down the lineup and the fear of Napoli catching fire keep teams honest. However with Ellsbury, Drew and potentially Napoli gone their is some grounds for concern. I know their is plenty of potential in JBJ & Bogaerts but can they provide enough? If Carp or Nava play 1B regularly do they provide enough "punch"?
 
Part of this depends on what you make of Carp's .296/.362/.523 in 243 plate appearances.  Even if you can't buy into it entirely, you can't dismiss it either, especially given the hitting he showed at AAA in 2010 and 2011.  Heck, his ML line from 2009 to 2011 (age 23 - 25) was .273/.334/.444 in 419 PA.  His career line is skewed by his bad 2012 where he was riddled the entire season with a lingering shoulder injury and then a hip injury.  Now, obviously, he'll be 28 next season and is a lousy outfielder, but you have to be intrigued by that power.  The Red Sox may have stumbled upon a good 1B and potential DH backup/replacement for Ortiz.  It surprises me that more isn't made around here of his potential role on this team.
 

The Best Catch in 100 Years

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lxt said:
Question for the forum. If we don't sign Napoli who do we get to protect Ortiz's bat? Without solid protection behind him Ortiz's effectiveness will drop as teams will just pitch around him. The 2013 team had player producing up and down the lineup and the fear of Napoli catching fire keep teams honest. However with Ellsbury, Drew and potentially Napoli gone their is some grounds for concern. I know their is plenty of potential in JBJ & Bogaerts but can they provide enough? If Carp or Nava play 1B regularly do they provide enough "punch"?
Carp and Nava were both more productive hitters than Napoli last year. Of course, this came along with career-high BABIPs for both guys, but Napoli also had a career-high BABIP. Napoli obviously has the better track record, but Carp and Nava clearly beat him on the potential career-ending-injury front. I have never seen anything that indicates that lineup protection isn't total BS either. Can you point me toward a study that shows that players are more productive on a per-PA basis when they have better hitters behind them?
 

lxt

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The Best Catch in 100 Years said:
Carp and Nava were both more productive hitters than Napoli last year. Of course, this came along with career-high BABIPs for both guys, but Napoli also had a career-high BABIP. Napoli obviously has the better track record, but Carp and Nava clearly beat him on the potential career-ending-injury front. I have never seen anything that indicates that lineup protection isn't total BS either. Can you point me toward a study that shows that players are more productive on a per-PA basis when they have better hitters behind them?
Can't point to a study. I just remember Barry Bonds in SF, pitchers walked in runs rather than pitch to him. I remember the pounding Manny & Ortiz did when Manny protected Ortiz and there were two, may be three 20+ HR hitters behind Manny. There are a ton of examples (Teams that is) of what is possible when your 3-4-5 hitters all have protection. A great hitter will always make things happen but it's always nice when the pitchers have to pitch to him straight up.
 
I like Carp and I think he'll be a fine player, he may even be another find like Ortiz (No not a 40HR - 110RBi guy), just far better than others thought. Like Bogaerts & JBJ I think giving him an opportunity could be a worthwhile experiment.
 
I'm just concerned about too many experiments and not enough known entities. Injuries wipe out all "known entities" so it may be all right after all.
 

nvalvo

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wine111 said:
 

 

 

 
 
 

I think I would switch Nava to leadoff and Bradley to 8th for 2014.  Nava can get on base while Bradley needs to learn plate discipline.  But Ortiz is so due for a decline that a strong bat should be added to hit behind him.  Perhaps Billy Butler, Carlos Beltran or Mark Trumbo.  Middlebrooks or Carp behind Ortiz would likely mean that Ortiz would see very few pitches to hit.  It will be difficult to match last year's production. 
 
 
Huh? He's put up a .100+ isolated patience at every level, with the exception of his 107 PA in MLB last year. 
 
His plate discipline skills are fine. The question is whether they will turn out to be elite. 
 

Savin Hillbilly

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The wrong side of the bridge....
lxt said:
Question for the forum. If we don't sign Napoli who do we get to protect Ortiz's bat? Without solid protection behind him Ortiz's effectiveness will drop as teams will just pitch around him.
 
There are a bunch of studies calling the concept of lineup protection into question, and AFAIK, few if any defending it. Tom Tango, J.C. Bradbury and others have published analysis showing that the effect of lineup protection is insignificant, and not necessarily even positive (in terms of the protected hitter's performance).
 
Of course it would be better to have a good hitter in the #5 slot, but that's because we'll get better production from the #5 slot, not the #4.
 

lxt

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Savin Hillbilly said:
 
There are a bunch of studies calling the concept of lineup protection into question, and AFAIK, few if any defending it. Tom Tango, J.C. Bradbury and others have published analysis showing that the effect of lineup protection is insignificant, and not necessarily even positive (in terms of the protected hitter's performance).
 
Of course it would be better to have a good hitter in the #5 slot, but that's because we'll get better production from the #5 slot, not the #4.
Thanks. I'll let that little worry fade away.
 

terrisus

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lxt said:
Can't point to a study. I just remember Barry Bonds in SF, pitchers walked in runs rather than pitch to him.
 
Pretty sure that only happened once, via Buck Showalter.
Granted, we face him with the Orioles now.
 
Despite that, though, Bonds seems to have done alright for himself during that time.
If Ortiz can put up Bonds-like numbers, I don't think any of us are going to be complaining very much.
 

DGreenwood

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Savin Hillbilly said:
 
There are a bunch of studies calling the concept of lineup protection into question, and AFAIK, few if any defending it. Tom Tango, J.C. Bradbury and others have published analysis showing that the effect of lineup protection is insignificant, and not necessarily even positive (in terms of the protected hitter's performance).
 
Of course it would be better to have a good hitter in the #5 slot, but that's because we'll get better production from the #5 slot, not the #4.
 
There's some evidence that the Red Sox, or at least Farrell, believe in the need for protection despite the statistics.  Link from the SABR Seminar thread.
 
But this is the thread for what we wish for, not for what we think will happen, so what the org thinks is less important to this discussion.  I just wanted to point it out since we were on the topic.
 

RochesterSamHorn

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It looks more and more like the Padres are open to trading Chase Headley. He would add great versatility as a switch hitting 3B/1B. I know the Yankees are going to be all over him, but a trade of Middlebrooks + Dempster (subsidized) + pitching prospect should get it done.
 

Hoplite

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RochesterSamHorn said:
It looks more and more like the Padres are open to trading Chase Headley. He would add great versatility as a switch hitting 3B/1B. I know the Yankees are going to be all over him, but a trade of Middlebrooks + Dempster (subsidized) + pitching prospect should get it done.
 
I'd be all over Headley. I doubt they'd want Dempster but maybe something centered around Middlebrooks, Doubront and Workman would entice them. I wouldn't go too crazy, Headley will make something like $10 million in arbitration and it's the last year he's under contract.
 

YTF

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RochesterSamHorn said:
It looks more and more like the Padres are open to trading Chase Headley. He would add great versatility as a switch hitting 3B/1B. I know the Yankees are going to be all over him, but a trade of Middlebrooks + Dempster (subsidized) + pitching prospect should get it done.
 From what I can see he's never started a game at first base and has only played the position twice in MLB games, does have some outfield experience. If you're giving up on Middlebrooks for Headley that's one argument, but you're looking to give San Diego Dempster, a pitching prospect AND cash as well???? 
 

radsoxfan

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YTF said:
 From what I can see he's never started a game at first base and has only played the position twice in MLB games, does have some outfield experience. If you're giving up on Middlebrooks for Headley that's one argument, but you're looking to give San Diego Dempster, a pitching prospect AND cash as well???? 
 
Well it certainly matters how much cash and how good of a prospect.  But if its minimal money, and not a very good prospect I'd be all over it.
 
Headley fits much better into a 1 year 10 million-ish salary slot on next years team than Dempster (offer to throw in 1-2M to make it a salary wash next season if SD wants). He basically becomes next year's Drew.  If you think WMB has a good shot at turning the corner, I can see not liking the deal, since you are giving up a much cheaper player with more years of team control.
 
I'm not high on Middlebrooks, and think Headley is a better player with a higher floor next season.  Would very much like to see Bogaerts/Headley left side of the IF next year.
 

Hoplite

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radsoxfan said:
 
Well it certainly matters how much cash and how good of a prospect.  But if its minimal money, and not a very good prospect I'd be all over it.
 
Headley fits much better into a 1 year 10 million-ish salary slot on next years team than Dempster (offer to throw in 1-2M to make it a salary wash next season if SD wants). He basically becomes next year's Drew.  If you think WMB has a good shot at turning the corner, I can see not liking the deal, since you are giving up a much cheaper player with more years of team control.
 
I'm not high on Middlebrooks, and think Headley is a better player with a higher floor next season.  Would very much like to see Bogaerts/Headley left side of the IF next year.
 
Middlebrooks is in a precarious position, because even if he does turn it around he'll have Cecchini breathing down his neck. If we could turn him and an extra starter into a stopgap for one year that would net us a draft pick, that would be ideal.
 

JakeRae

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Devizier said:
Generally speaking, crappy stats are more predictive of crappy outcomes than they are of great outcomes.
 
Now how much you can predict from a 100-PA sample is another question. Maybe if you're Eric Van...
 
You've got the principle right, but you are being overly broad in using it in this instance.
 
I do not think anyone here would deny that if you had a 100 PA, or 200 PA sample of the first at bats of a player in MLB, the players with better stats are probably going to have ended up being better players, on average, than those with worse stats. That's fairly self-evident once you realize that there is data there and, at some point, the law of large numbers kicks in. What that does not tell us is that the first 100 or 200 PA sample of a young player's MLB career is at all meaningful if we are trying to predict their individual outcomes. Because, it might be that the difference between a great start and a horrible start, once you bring it back to the individual level, is pretty much meaningless.
 
Once accepting that, there are a couple things worth noting. The first relates to your flippant EV reference. What EV generally argued, in regard to small sample sizes, was that small samples of aberrantly strong performance were meaningful in suggesting that a player was better than previously thought. That is not to say that such a player is as good as that performance, but that a really strong performance, even over a small sample, can raise a baseline. This is especially true for prospects. However, a really bad performance over a small sample is far less informative. The reason for this is simple. We know that all baseball players are really bad for stretches and that these stretches are not all that uncommon. We, similarly, know that there are certain levels of performance sustained, even over a small sample, that a player of a given talent level is incredibly unlikely to achieve. This latter point is why it's now a legitimate debate whether Iglesias is a better hitter than was previously thought of just got incredibly lucky for a while. We know he got incredibly lucky, but, given how good he was, it's reasonable to argue that some of the change in performance was skill rather than luck.
 
That point applies directly to prospects that struggle for a stretch upon promotion. Any baseball player who struggles over a small sample isn't providing meaningful data with the possible exception of a player you think is the next Mike Trout. Basically, the distinction I acknowledged in my first paragraph stems entirely from the fact that the players who have good starts are providing meaningful data on the margins, not that those who are struggling are. But, it goes further than this. Players adjust to level jumps at different rates and in different manners. It is fairly common for players to struggle after a level change, get their feet under them, and go back to being the player they looked like prior to that jump. So, even more so than how ordinarily a small sample struggle is pretty much meaningless, it is especially true for a player playing at a new level for the first time.
 

LeoCarrillo

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Hoplite said:
 
Middlebrooks is in a precarious position, because even if he does turn it around he'll have Cecchini breathing down his neck. If we could turn him and an extra starter into a stopgap for one year that would net us a draft pick, that would be ideal.
 
Bingo. New Moneyball. Overpay a little (in $$ or blocked prospects) on pillow contracts (or guys getting expensive like Headley) and cash in on the QO pick, which ought to be in the 30-35 range.
 
If you're a Cecchini believer, then WMB is really the blocked "prospect." So, ship out him and a subsidized Dempster. Hopefully that does it. But if necessary, see if the Padres covet an arm that Ben and Hazen aren't loving anymore. Webster?
 

Hoplite

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LeoCarrillo said:
 
Bingo. New Moneyball. Overpay a little (in $$ or blocked prospects) on pillow contracts (or guys getting expensive like Headley) and cash in on the QO pick, which ought to be in the 30-35 range.
 
If you're a Cecchini believer, then WMB is really the blocked "prospect." So, ship out him and a subsidized Dempster. Hopefully that does it. But if necessary, see if the Padres covet an arm that Ben and Hazen aren't loving anymore. Webster?
 
Between Doubront, Workman, Owens, Barnes, Ranaudo, De La Rosa, Webster, Britton, Johnson, Wilson, etc. there's got to be a few arms that the Red Sox aren't high on and view as expendable.
 

lxt

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YTF said:
 From what I can see he's never started a game at first base and has only played the position twice in MLB games, does have some outfield experience. If you're giving up on Middlebrooks for Headley that's one argument, but you're looking to give San Diego Dempster, a pitching prospect AND cash as well???? 
Headley has played LF in the past - maybe 200 games - moved to 3B as his primary position in 2010.