How much better can we get by just not playing stupid?

Rasputin

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One of my biggest frustrations with the 2023 team was the entirely too common mistakes that could be best described as fucking stupid. I'm not talking about being aggressive and getting caught, that shit's gonna happen. I'm talking throwing to the wrong base, missing the cutoff man, getting thrown out by twenty feet, and the other assorted fuckups we've seen on both sides of the ball.

I'd like you to imagine 2023 is replayed with all the injuries and inconsistencies, but without the goddamn stupid mistakes--or at least a league average number of them.

How much better is the team?

I think it's obvious that it's a non-trivial amount, but I'm not sure it's all that large.

I would suggest 2-3 games, but my memory is shit these days.
 

JOBU

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One of my biggest frustrations with the 2023 team was the entirely too common mistakes that could be best described as fucking stupid. I'm not talking about being aggressive and getting caught, that shit's gonna happen. I'm talking throwing to the wrong base, missing the cutoff man, getting thrown out by twenty feet, and the other assorted fuckups we've seen on both sides of the ball.

I'd like you to imagine 2023 is replayed with all the injuries and inconsistencies, but without the goddamn stupid mistakes--or at least a league average number of them.

How much better is the team?

I think it's obvious that it's a non-trivial amount, but I'm not sure it's all that large.

I would suggest 2-3 games, but my memory is shit these days.
Yeah I don’t think it’s much. Is there a metric that calculates that? I would also be surprised if it’s more than 2ish wins over the course of a 162 game season but it sure is frustrating to watch.
 

Timduhda

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I can’t imagine it would be more than 2-3 wins, but I wish there was a stat that could show what happened the game(s) after. For example, close loss 3-2 and the winning run scored when Duran threw to wrong base earlier in the game. Granted there was time to come back in that particular game, but players get down, there is no momentum etc… Players get in to a rut and instead of wondering who is going to make the big play, they are wondering what bad will happen next.

Could that one stupid play turn in to a losing streak? That’s what I mean by what happens in the games following the stupid play.
 

Sandy Leon Trotsky

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I still believe that the’04 Sox would have won it all without those idiots Damon and Ramirez in the outfield
 

LogansDad

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I am going to go with something like "not as much as we hope, but more than some people realize".

My thought is that while a few runs doesn't seem like a lot over the course of a season, it can mean a lot in a single game. And a single game can potentially be the difference between making the playoffs or being at home for most of October.

I believe this team is closer to contending than many here do, but I also recognize that their margin for error is paper thin, so I think it is important for them to play good, smart, but aggressive baseball from day 1.

Additionally, teams that play smart baseball are way, way more fun to watch than teams that make you fear a Little League fiasco every time the ball is put in play.
 

Margo McCready

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Ok, now *this* is a goddamn interesting thread idea.

So I gotta admit, the 2019 and 2020 seasons were the first that I’d completely checked out on the Red Sox since I was in my late teens/early 20s.It wasn’t that they were bad in ‘19 and ‘20, it was that the ‘18 team satisfied every single video game fantasy 12 year old me could dream up. 2004, 2007 and 2013 all made me more baseball obsessed. 2018 scratched an itch that made baseball no longer necessary (temporarily).

Then June 2021 comes along and now I can’t take my eyes off the team again. The first thing that strikes me actually watching the games because they’ve been winning is HOW FUCKING DUMB the team is. Every single ground ball straight to an infielder is an automatic single+. Every base hit to an outfielder (especially Renfroe) automatically puts the batter on second base when the inevitable no chance throw doesn’t catch the runner at the plate. And don’t get me started on the baserunning. I mean, Verdugo is a FUCKING LEGEND for the mind blowingly STUPIDEST baserunning I’ve ever witness an MLB player attempt. BUT THEY KEPT FUCKING WINNING ANYWAY. Part of why I loved the 2021 team so much was that it blew my mind a team could play such horrible baseball and still win games. I was tuning in that year just to see how they’d dumb luck their way into winning a game that their blatant incompetence with fundamentals should have pissed away. It was cute that year. I was wildly entertained watching a team win again and again when they had no business to. I’m talking clown show baserunning and defense. 2021 was awesome because it felt voyeuristic, like what it must feel like to be a Cubs fan witnessing a best-case scenario unfold.

Then 2022 and 2023 happened. It wasn’t so cute anymore when they started losing the games their dipshit play deserved to lose. Too many injuries to bail them out from their little league-style baseball. Ever listen to the Buddy Rich tapes on YouTube? That’s all I could hear in my head watching how mind-numbingly stupid this team has played the last three seasons.

It literally blew my mind watching 2023 playoff games and seeing players that could actually catch and throw the ball, hit the goddamn cutoff man, and make sensible baserunning decisions. The 2023 playoffs fascinated me because I couldn’t help but notice that I wasn’t watching hitters and pitchers that were miles ahead of the Red Sox hitters and pitchers, I was watching baseball players field their positions and run the bases like professionals. It was a treat watching baseball players have a clue what was going on around them. It really drove home what is REALLY wrong with this team the last handful of seasons. I’m not an angry “fire the manager” type of fan, but Alex Cora et al, WTF???

Anyway. Please God, let’s stop playing like children out there. You’re breaking my heart.
 

oumbi

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Ok, now *this* is a goddamn interesting thread idea.

So I gotta admit, the 2019 and 2020 seasons were the first that I’d completely checked out on the Red Sox since I was in my late teens/early 20s.It wasn’t that they were bad in ‘19 and ‘20, it was that the ‘18 team satisfied every single video game fantasy 12 year old me could dream up. 2004, 2007 and 2013 all made me more baseball obsessed. 2018 scratched an itch that made baseball no longer necessary (temporarily).

Then June 2021 comes along and now I can’t take my eyes off the team again. The first thing that strikes me actually watching the games because they’ve been winning is HOW FUCKING DUMB the team is. Every single ground ball straight to an infielder is an automatic single+. Every base hit to an outfielder (especially Renfroe) automatically puts the batter on second base when the inevitable no chance throw doesn’t catch the runner at the plate. And don’t get me started on the baserunning. I mean, Verdugo is a FUCKING LEGEND for the mind blowingly STUPIDEST baserunning I’ve ever witness an MLB player attempt. BUT THEY KEPT FUCKING WINNING ANYWAY. Part of why I loved the 2021 team so much was that it blew my mind a team could play such horrible baseball and still win games. I was tuning in that year just to see how they’d dumb luck their way into winning a game that their blatant incompetence with fundamentals should have pissed away. It was cute that year. I was wildly entertained watching a team win again and again when they had no business to. I’m talking clown show baserunning and defense. 2021 was awesome because it felt voyeuristic, like what it must feel like to be a Cubs fan witnessing a best-case scenario unfold.

Then 2022 and 2023 happened. It wasn’t so cute anymore when they started losing the games their dipshit play deserved to lose. Too many injuries to bail them out from their little league-style baseball. Ever listen to the Buddy Rich tapes on YouTube? That’s all I could hear in my head watching how mind-numbingly stupid this team has played the last three seasons.

It literally blew my mind watching 2023 playoff games and seeing players that could actually catch and throw the ball, hit the goddamn cutoff man, and make sensible baserunning decisions. The 2023 playoffs fascinated me because I couldn’t help but notice that I wasn’t watching hitters and pitchers that were miles ahead of the Red Sox hitters and pitchers, I was watching baseball players field their positions and run the bases like professionals. It was a treat watching baseball players have a clue what was going on around them. It really drove home what is REALLY wrong with this team the last handful of seasons. I’m not an angry “fire the manager” type of fan, but Alex Cora et al, WTF???

Anyway. Please God, let’s stop playing like children out there. You’re breaking my heart.
Really? I had no idea that each and every ball hit at a Red Sox infielder was a single. I checked, briefly, stats, my memory, and a few videos and found that not to be the case. I actually saw a quite a few times when a ball hit at a Red Sox infielder was fielded properly and an out was recorded.

Please try to post better, perhaps by making use of stats and reality. Most threads on the main board are not dumping grounds for personal angst and hyperbole. Adding at least an attempt at stats would be helpful. The place for emotional venting is games threads.
 

YTF

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Really? I had no idea that each and every ball hit at a Red Sox infielder was a single. I checked, briefly, stats, my memory, and a few videos and found that not to be the case. I actually saw a quite a few times when a ball hit at a Red Sox infielder was fielded properly and an out was recorded.

Please try to post better, perhaps by making use of stats and reality. Most threads on the main board are not dumping grounds for personal angst and hyperbole. Adding at least an attempt at stats would be helpful. The place for emotional venting is games threads.
I think that you may be over policing a bit here. Some of the phrasing might have been better, but I doubt that there is a member here who doesn't get the gist of what's been said and agree at least to some degree. The use of stats isn't the end all, be all for every thread or post. In fact, I don't see a single stat offered up yet in any of the posts thus far. I don't think that I'm going out on too far of a limb when I say the majority of the membership has been disappointed in and in many cases commented on the poor defensive and bad fundamental baseball that's been on display by this team for the past few seasons. I think that there is room for opinion and discussion and without the use of stats I might offer this. Like others here, I have no idea how to quantify how much better this team might have been. That said is there anyone among us who doesn't think that over the course of 162 game season the team consistently that plays solid defense and plays smart, fundamentally sound baseball, a team that does "all the little things" will put itself in the best possible situation to win vs a team that doesn't? Addressing the issues of running into outs on the base baths will extend innings when your team is at bat which is always good from an offensive stand point and may alter how the other team's pitchers are used. Reducing the number of physical and mental errors on defense not only lessens the opponents opportunities extend their at bats (a good thing, right?), but can help to keep pitch counts in check which can be a benefit to when it comes to bullpen management.

The difference in wins vs loses is unlikely to be measurable because there are so many variables as to the actual game situation when these gaffs occur, but it certainly seems fair to say that a team should get better by "just not playing stupid".
 
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grimshaw

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Some interesting team stats from baseball reference.
The Sox were:

11th in run scoring percentage (amount of times a baserunner reached and eventually scored)
12th in stolen base percentage
Only attempted to steal 3rd 7 times and not caught once.
10th fewest pick offs
20th on bases taken (flyouts, passed balls etc

There is also a stat called Rgood (not joking) that factors in the net runs of exceptional plays to boneheaded plays. The Sox were at -2 which was a little below average.

The path to improving defensively in any meaningful fashion is not in the cards for the immediate future. Casas could improve on his numbers, a full healthy Story season will help, but the outfield without Verdugo will probably not improve. To me they are simply an unathletic team that has to stay within their baserunning means thanks to a poorly constructed lineup.
 

Jed Zeppelin

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I am going to go with something like "not as much as we hope, but more than some people realize".

My thought is that while a few runs doesn't seem like a lot over the course of a season, it can mean a lot in a single game. And a single game can potentially be the difference between making the playoffs or being at home for most of October.

I believe this team is closer to contending than many here do, but I also recognize that their margin for error is paper thin, so I think it is important for them to play good, smart, but aggressive baseball from day 1.

Additionally, teams that play smart baseball are way, way more fun to watch than teams that make you fear a Little League fiasco every time the ball is put in play.
To your first points, I’d think a lot of the longer term effects of “bad baseball” may be hard to quantify but definitely present.

Game-losing mistakes are obvious, but then you have things like an error or mistake that doesn't lead directly to an unearned run but does force extra pitches, and perhaps more stressful pitches.

Those extra pitches get us into the pen earlier, that extra reliever we have to use as a result is now less available for the next game, and it just keeps compounding when mistakes are inevitably made in the next game too. Of course, the rotation has been such a shambles that such effects may be bigger than they should be but nonetheless it has to wear on the team and especially the pitching staff to deal with these particular struggles.
 

YTF

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To your first points, I’d think a lot of the longer term effects of “bad baseball” may be hard to quantify but definitely present.

Game-losing mistakes are obvious, but then you have things like an error or mistake that doesn't lead directly to an unearned run but does force extra pitches, and perhaps more stressful pitches.

Those extra pitches get us into the pen earlier, that extra reliever we have to use as a result is now less available for the next game, and it just keeps compounding when mistakes are inevitably made in the next game too. Of course, the rotation has been such a shambles that such effects may be bigger than they should be but nonetheless it has to wear on the team and especially the pitching staff to deal with these particular struggles.
Yes there can definitely be a snowball or domino effect in subsequent games especially during an insanely long stretch of games without a day off, if your staff is already limited by injury, overuse or all of the above.
 

Quatchie

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How can they be better with players who are the same or worse? I don't see any real upgrades that would help them play smarter.
 

Green Monster

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I don't know how to quantify things into wins/losses, but I don't think expecting major league players to know basic fundamentals is asking alot. In fact, Cora needs to emphasize these things from day1 of spring training so that everyone understands that its important.

I think that the biggest impact might just be with the NESN viewership. Do viewers turn the channel or watch their major league team throw the ball around like a bunch of little leaguers?
 

YTF

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How can they be better with players who are the same or worse? I don't see any real upgrades that would help them play smarter.
I think that the middle IF defensive should be considerably better as we head into the season, that will surely help. I'm not fully sold on Duran in CF. He looked a bit improved on his routes towards batted balls for the previous season, but seemed less so at times and I don't discount that some of the younger players might still be able to improve their defensive skills. I also think it's incumbent on the coaching and the organization as a whole to teach and reinforce fundamentals and situational baseball on a continuing basis. The bad play that we've witnessed over the past few seasons leads me to believe that there is work yet to be done regarding those aspects of the game and Cora himself seems to have admitted as much when he said that he planned to address some of these issues in spring training. I'm not sure why he chose to wait if he's acknowledged there's a problem, but hopefully we see some results in the coming season.
 

sezwho

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Another year in LF for Masa, swapping out the worst defensive MLB SS for the best(ish), Devers curing the yips(he was passable out there to the eye test otherwise), continued improvement from Casas are all reasons for more from the same.

I’m not sure what to make of 2B or the rest of the OF yet, and I’d be surprised if anyone was at this point…other than more Abreu until he plays himself out of a job.
 

flredsoxfan

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Since defense has been a big issue I wonder if Grissom is going to be given a long leash to see if he can play a decent 2nd base. Remember when Pedroia came up - he didn't hit a lick for 2 months but they stuck with him because of his glove. It might be the other way around with Grissom. Improved play from Casas would certainly help and a whole year of Story at short should improve the numbers there. What is there to say about Devers? He catches just about everything but is wild throwing. And $30M is too much to pay for a DH.
 

greenmountains

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OF Defense - This is why I want Rafaela in CF day 1. Let him play plus defense and make the right plays. I think Duran will never be anything other than passable...I'm not bullish on him. Rafaela is close to JBJ as his floor. If the CFer can cover 44% of the outfield (plus 5% in each direction), that leaves 28% for each of the other two (yes, I know it doesn't exactly work that way...but a plus, plus CFer covers a shit ton of corner outfielder deficiencies). It's not just my view of Rafaela..here's Keith Law: "I think he has a chance to be the most valuable defensive outfielder in baseball"

The Sox would have plus D at C, SS, CF....with adequate D at 2nd base, Grissom is converting from inadequate SS....that's a receipt for a great improvement. Can O'Neill / Abreu play average RF? I think Casas can be slightly below average'ish when he's getting throws he can handle (Kiki did him no favors last year). Devers just seems to be Manny as an infielder. When he's focused, he can do anything. But can just completely lose focus and can be atrocious. That just leaves LF which at Fenway is much less of an issue and on the road, two of O'Neill / Abreu / Refsnyder play LF and RF. The key is Rafaela....he changes the picture of the defensive capacity of this team.

And with reasonable defense, much of the stupid play goes away. And the Sox traded away one of the single worst baserunners I've ever seen...so there is that.
 
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Max Power

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O'Neill won a couple gold gloves playing left for the Cardinals. Verdugo had a great year in right, but O'Neill may be able to replicate that performance if he manages to stay on the field. His talents would be wasted playing him in front of the monster.
 

Brohamer of the Gods

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To your first points, I’d think a lot of the longer term effects of “bad baseball” may be hard to quantify but definitely present.

Game-losing mistakes are obvious, but then you have things like an error or mistake that doesn't lead directly to an unearned run but does force extra pitches, and perhaps more stressful pitches.

Those extra pitches get us into the pen earlier, that extra reliever we have to use as a result is now less available for the next game, and it just keeps compounding when mistakes are inevitably made in the next game too. Of course, the rotation has been such a shambles that such effects may be bigger than they should be but nonetheless it has to wear on the team and especially the pitching staff to deal with these particular struggles.
I was thinking something similar, particularly with starters being pulled before seeing the top of the order for a third time so frequently. A seemingly meaningless early inning error could be the difference in who starts the 5th or 6th inning.
 

chrisfont9

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Last year the team experienced injury after injury to three positions: 2b, ss and cf. Seven different people played some CF, ten guys tried at least an inning at SS and 11 people played some 2b. It might be as simple as some better continuity at the key defensive positions.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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Last year the team experienced injury after injury to three positions: 2b, ss and cf. Seven different people played some CF, ten guys tried at least an inning at SS and 11 people played some 2b. It might be as simple as some better continuity at the key defensive positions.
I see your point but I don't think just citing the number of players logging innings tells the whole story. Having a number of guys filter through a position in a given season isn't all that out of the ordinary. The bulk of them usually only appear there a couple times or for just a few innings. Just as an example, in 2022, seven different people played CF, seven played SS, and 10 played at 2B. Nearly identical to 2023, and there was certainly continuity at SS that season as Bogaerts made 146 starts.

It's probably more instructive to look at the distribution of innings. If no one is covering at least 1000 innings by themselves while multiple guys registering 100+, that's arguably a lack of continuity. Or a by-product of employing multi-position players and shuffling them around intentionally (read: Kike).

2023:
2B five guys played at least 100 innings (Arroyo 442, Valdez 357, Urias 208, Reyes 196, and Kike 131)
SS had four (Kike 484, Story 314, Chang 256, and Reyes 208)
CF had three (Duran 557, Duvall 478, Rafaela 116)

2022:
2B had three (Story 813, Arroyo 310, Sanchez 109)
SS had one (Bogaerts 1249)
CF had four (Kike 669, Duran 416, JBJ 170, Refsnyder 115)
 

Rovin Romine

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I see your point but I don't think just citing the number of players logging innings tells the whole story. Having a number of guys filter through a position in a given season isn't all that out of the ordinary. The bulk of them usually only appear there a couple times or for just a few innings. Just as an example, in 2022, seven different people played CF, seven played SS, and 10 played at 2B. Nearly identical to 2023, and there was certainly continuity at SS that season as Bogaerts made 146 starts.

It's probably more instructive to look at the distribution of innings. If no one is covering at least 1000 innings by themselves while multiple guys registering 100+, that's arguably a lack of continuity. Or a by-product of employing multi-position players and shuffling them around intentionally (read: Kike).

2023:
2B five guys played at least 100 innings (Arroyo 442, Valdez 357, Urias 208, Reyes 196, and Kike 131)
SS had four (Kike 484, Story 314, Chang 256, and Reyes 208)
CF had three (Duran 557, Duvall 478, Rafaela 116)

2022:
2B had three (Story 813, Arroyo 310, Sanchez 109)
SS had one (Bogaerts 1249)
CF had four (Kike 669, Duran 416, JBJ 170, Refsnyder 115)
@chrisfont9 - a good resource is B-ref's fielding page. They go by year and league. You can scroll down for chances in the advanced table, and then below are the individual players. If you click on the team column to sort, you can compare all the individual Sox players defensive stats for that position for that year.

For example, here is SS for 2023: https://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/AL/2023-specialpos_ss-fielding.shtml

You can see the problem.

And here is CF for 2023: https://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/AL/2023-specialpos_cf-fielding.shtml

Again click on the team column to sort, and you can see that Duran was not the problem.
 
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SirPsychoSquints

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@chrisfont9 - a good resource is B-ref's fielding page. They go by year and league. You can scroll down for chances in the advanced table, and then below are the individual players. If you click on the team column to sort, you can compare all the individual Sox players defensive stats for that position for that year.

For example, here is SS for 2023: https://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/AL/2023-specialpos_ss-fielding.shtml

You can see the problem.
Further, the closest to the Sox (10) were the Devil Rays (8), and they had a very different reason their number 1 SS didn't play the entire season. Even then, they had 112 games from Franco and we had 133 from our top 3 guys (Hernandez 64, Story 36, Chang 33), and 5 guys over 10 games, while they only had 3.

In fact, 6 players with 10+ games at SS is the most any team has ever "achieved," Stathead, with only 7 teams in modern AL/NL history reaching that, and only 83 reaching 5 such players. At the same time, 5 teams did it last year, including the Dodgers.
 

Fishy1

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@chrisfont9 - a good resource is B-ref's fielding page. They go by year and league. You can scroll down for chances in the advanced table, and then below are the individual players. If you click on the team column to sort, you can compare all the individual Sox players defensive stats for that position for that year.

For example, here is SS for 2023: https://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/AL/2023-specialpos_ss-fielding.shtml

You can see the problem.

And here is CF for 2023: https://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/AL/2023-specialpos_cf-fielding.shtml

Again click on the team column to sort, and you can see that Duran was not the problem.
We must be looking at different boards, because for center field it looks like Duvall and Duran were quite bad. I mean, by defensive runs saved above average, him and Duvall were both near the bottom for CF, some of the very worst CFs. Am I misinterpreting something?

77670

Just, like, saying. I mean, I think Duran could make another leap defensively -- all credit is due to the guy for making all of the advances he has. But if I had my druthers we'd park Rafaela out there as soon as we could without losing service time because Rafaela has a carrying tool and needs to learn to hit against big league pitching, and defense is this team's achilles heel, presently. Move Duran to left and Yoshida to DH, with Abreu/O'Neill sharing time in right, and it seems to me you're in business for a good defensive outfield.
 

Rovin Romine

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We must be looking at different boards, because for center field it looks like Duvall and Duran were quite bad. I mean, by defensive runs saved above average, him and Duvall were both near the bottom for CF, some of the very worst CFs. Am I misinterpreting something?

View attachment 77670
Interesting - you selected the least favorable way to sort his stats.

Mind you, I'm not saying that Duran is a great CF. He's below average, but within shouting distance of average, and his fielding game keeps improving for reasons stated hereabouts which don't need to be repeated at this point.

That said, the thread is about improving the defense of the 2024 club. (In part.) Having even a *slightly* improved Duran in CF would not be the end of the world and should lead to a net improvement on the 2024 club.
 

SirPsychoSquints

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Further, the closest to the Sox (10) were the Devil Rays (8), and they had a very different reason their number 1 SS didn't play the entire season. Even then, they had 112 games from Franco and we had 133 from our top 3 guys (Hernandez 64, Story 36, Chang 33), and 5 guys over 10 games, while they only had 3.

In fact, 6 players with 10+ games at SS is the most any team has ever "achieved," Stathead, with only 7 teams in modern AL/NL history reaching that, and only 83 reaching 5 such players. At the same time, 5 teams did it last year, including the Dodgers.
https://stathead.com/tiny/f9rQg
https://stathead.com/tiny/mlXcP

Last year's Sox also show up tied for 8th place in most CF with at least 10 games (with ~50 other teams in history) with 6 CFs, and tied for 15th place in most 2B with at least 10 games (with ~40 other teams in history) with 6 2B.

If you look at the results, high numbers of these are much more common recently than in the past.
 

chrisfont9

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Thanks all, this is a lot more meat on the bones. I think there is a further, qualitative point about the injuries being clustered where they were and when they happened that probably doesn't come out in the individual stats. It's my impression that the up-the-middle guys create a lot of synergistic value -- or, in this case, fail to create it -- which takes some weight off the corner guys, the catcher throwing out runners, and of course the pitcher on some overall level. Anecdotal, but Devers and Bogaerts were both better defensively than they had been once Story came aboard. That sort of thing.

Last year, the Sox started without Story who only returned after the deadline, and Mondesi never arrived to fill the void, leaving them plugging in Kiké , who flopped, and then just searching for help. Very quickly, like five seconds after it looked like Bloom might have scored big in CF, Duvall got hurt and took a while to recover, especially with the bat. Chang and Arroyo both got hurt late April/early May, opening up 2b as well, and things just got desperate from then on.
 

Fishy1

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Interesting - you selected the least favorable way to sort his stats.

Mind you, I'm not saying that Duran is a great CF. He's below average, but within shouting distance of average, and his fielding game keeps improving for reasons stated hereabouts which don't need to be repeated at this point.

That said, the thread is about improving the defense of the 2024 club. (In part.) Having even a *slightly* improved Duran in CF would not be the end of the world and should lead to a net improvement on the 2024 club.
Ha! Well, I didn't mean to sort them unfavorably. I could have took a deeper dive, sorry about that.

Anyways, I basically agree -- an improved Duran in center would be nice, and is absolutely possible. But I think Rafaela's all-world potential out there means Duran is probably destined for left field or trade fodder in the long-run.
 

Rovin Romine

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Miami (oh, Miami!)
But I think Rafaela's all-world potential out there means Duran is probably destined for left field or trade fodder in the long-run.
I remain a bit puzzled by Rafaela's potential in CF. He's played there for 3 years in the minors. His total CF range factor numbers don't leap out at me. To calibrate them they're way below JBJs MiL numbers. Roman Anthony's are better than Rafaela's by more than Rafaela's are better than Duran's. (The last two are actually pretty close.)

That said, I have little idea how those would be expected to change at the ML level, or how much noise is in them.

Rafaela might be great because he's a good to plus defensive player at multiple positions, but I don't see anything that really argues he's an all-world player. Certainly good, but one of the better prospects? (I mean, I'd like to see that - if you have a reason to be optimistic, let us know.)

Edit - seems like most of his CF numbers are driven by 40 games at Worcester this year. I hope those are the most predictive ones.
 
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simplicio

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I think that's an area where I'd just defer to the scouting reports being unanimously enthusiastic about Rafaela's defense over however it is milb defensive metrics are compiled.
 

The Gray Eagle

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I remain a bit puzzled by Rafaela's potential in CF. He's played there for 3 years in the minors. His total CF range factor numbers don't leap out at me. To calibrate them they're way below JBJs MiL numbers. Roman Anthony's are better than Rafaela's by more than Rafaela's are better than Duran's. (The last two are actually pretty close.)

That said, I have little idea how those would be expected to change at the ML level, or how much noise is in them.

Rafaela might be great because he's a good to plus defensive player at multiple positions, but I don't see anything that really argues he's an all-world player. Certainly good, but one of the better prospects? (I mean, I'd like to see that - if you have a reason to be optimistic, let us know.)

Edit - seems like most of his CF numbers are driven by 40 games at Worcester this year. I hope those are the most predictive ones.
He's the real deal with the glove. This link shows a few of his highlight catches:
https://www.si.com/mlb/red-sox/prospects/watch-red-sox-prospect-ceddanne-rafaelas-insane-defensive-highlights
 

chrisfont9

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I think that's an area where I'd just defer to the scouting reports being unanimously enthusiastic about Rafaela's defense over however it is milb defensive metrics are compiled.
The Soxprospects.com writeup is very specific about range, routes etc. being top level. Maybe Anthony's CF experience and general ability sets him up to be the rangy RF the Sox always need?
 

Bergs

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I had a very vivid dream last night that the Sox gave up a run because the RF missed the cutoff man. I 100% blame this thread.
 

bernie carb 33

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Feb 2, 2024
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There is an interesting special on Youtube I saw today. I think it's titled Story Camp. Anyway it is run by Trevor Story, and he borrowed fundamentals from Tulowitski in the past. Those Sox attending this winter were Casas, David Hamilton, and Grissom. He really gets down to preparing the SS's on approaching the ball and doing a low release or high release. He was really instructing Grissom on how he wanted him to realease his toss on the DP. As I recall, Grissom started out as a SS and played some 2B. I'm not sure if he'll have some rough patches at 2B this Spring.

Casas seemed more interested in their basketball pick up games, lol, as the 1B was not really much involved in their workouts, or maybe he was off camera all the time.
Story's workouts are really full speed. I kind of winced a bit at the pressure on his arm as he has not played SS much at all foralmost two years.
 

Sandy Leon Trotsky

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We must be looking at different boards, because for center field it looks like Duvall and Duran were quite bad. I mean, by defensive runs saved above average, him and Duvall were both near the bottom for CF, some of the very worst CFs. Am I misinterpreting something?

View attachment 77670

Just, like, saying. I mean, I think Duran could make another leap defensively -- all credit is due to the guy for making all of the advances he has. But if I had my druthers we'd park Rafaela out there as soon as we could without losing service time because Rafaela has a carrying tool and needs to learn to hit against big league pitching, and defense is this team's achilles heel, presently. Move Duran to left and Yoshida to DH, with Abreu/O'Neill sharing time in right, and it seems to me you're in business for a good defensive outfield.
Wish there was a “like” button. Agree to this with the occasional change to have Duran still taking some CF duties, Yoshida occasionally in LF and still try Rafaela during those “Duran in CF” days some time at SS and 2B
 

BaseballJones

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Oct 1, 2015
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So in the category of playing stupid - or maybe not - I'm curious what you all think about this. Let's start this discussion with the raising of the mound following the 1968 season, since that year skewed numbers terribly. So from 1969-2023, here's the data, using 3-year increments:

77858

A few things to point out. (aside from the fact that when I hid the rows, I screwed up and didn't hide 2000, which threw off the every three year thing. Oh well)

The runs per game went up, up, up in the "steroid era", and then has come back down, to a point where it's barely above what it was in 1975. Now, runs went up in 2023 to 4.61 with the rule changes regarding the shift, but you can see that in 2022, runs were not appreciably higher than they were back in the days of Yaz, Lynn, and Boomer.

But how those runs were scored is very different now than it was then. In 1975 they scored 4.21 runs on 8.75 hits, with a .258 batting average. They were putting 28.59 balls in play per game. But in 2022, they scored 4.28 runs on just 8.16 hits, with a .243 batting average, and were putting just 24.41 balls in play.

Along those lines, here were the HR and strikeout numbers in 1975 and 2022:

1975: 0.70 homers, 4.98 K
2022: 1.07 homers, 8.40 K

2022 vs. 1975: 52.9% more homers, 68.7% more strikeouts, 14.6% fewer balls in play, and all that for a modest 1.7% more runs scored.

So yes, what we have all known here is that there's a lot more homers, a LOT more strikeouts, a lot fewer balls put in play, and about the same number of runs being scored. So this is the "launch angle revolution", right? Guys swinging for the fences, even with two strikes.

Now what I want to know is: is the higher strikeout number due mainly to the pitching, or to the changes in hitting approach? As in, as more pitchers are throwing a hell of a lot harder, with nastier stuff (every bullpen now seems to have 5 guys throwing 97, as opposed to even 20 years ago, when the Sox' bullpen had not a single guy that threw 96 or more - Timlin could reach 95 and Embree, I guess, every once in a blue moon, hit 96 but sat at 93-94), is that making life so much harder for the hitters that they figure, look, we aren't going to get many hits, so let's make them count - if we're going to get a hit let's have it be a homer?

Or is it that hitters started swinging for the fences and that made life easier on pitchers, who also just happened to be throwing a lot harder across the board? As in, with two strikes, instead of shortening the swing and just trying to put the ball into play (which was the standard hitting approach for well over 100 years), guys were saying, screw it, I'm still going for it, and that made it much easier for pitchers to strike them out?

Which came first? What's the driving force behind these numbers?

And will we see hitters adapt? In 2023, with rule changes, we saw the runs go up (to 4.62 per game), hits go up to 8.40, and homers go up to 1.21, but still, strikeouts go up to 8.61, and balls put in play go down, to 24.26.

So is this approach the best approach for scoring runs? What is driving these changes? Is baseball better or worse for it?
 

simplicio

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And how does whatever MLB is doing to the actual baseballs factor into that in any given era?