So what happens when you get fouled taking a 3 pointer? Or rather, a 5 pointer? 2.5 free throws?
Is the 3-point line ruining basketball?
- Thread starter Nick Kaufman
- Start date
It has destroyed the game that existed before, and that is nothing short of a tragedy. But, this bell can't be unrung. I use the 3 as a coach and teach the 3pt doctrine like a zealot. but, it's a new game and I remember what we once had.
I am riding buses with kids that want to play hoops at the next level. Most of them are on the bus, and not in school on scholarship for one reason because of they are not good 3pt shooters. I can't think of any other sport where it has evolved to the point that such a narrow skill has eliminated so many players.
There was once was a beauty to all sports. However, you got around the base, into the end zone, or put the ball through the goal was worth the same. Basketball not only destroyed that symmetry, and fairness, they did it with a 50% bonus. imagine TDs longer than 30 yards being with 10.5 points, or shots further than the slot 1.5 goals?
The originality and genius of guys like Dr J and Ice, as the sport was just finding itself. Guys that could shoot the ball a variety of ways at any time on their way to the hoop has been replaced by the Doc and Girvs of today eschewing creativity and kicking to a collection of identical jump shooters.
I am riding buses with kids that want to play hoops at the next level. Most of them are on the bus, and not in school on scholarship for one reason because of they are not good 3pt shooters. I can't think of any other sport where it has evolved to the point that such a narrow skill has eliminated so many players.
There was once was a beauty to all sports. However, you got around the base, into the end zone, or put the ball through the goal was worth the same. Basketball not only destroyed that symmetry, and fairness, they did it with a 50% bonus. imagine TDs longer than 30 yards being with 10.5 points, or shots further than the slot 1.5 goals?
The originality and genius of guys like Dr J and Ice, as the sport was just finding itself. Guys that could shoot the ball a variety of ways at any time on their way to the hoop has been replaced by the Doc and Girvs of today eschewing creativity and kicking to a collection of identical jump shooters.
Third FT is for one point on 5 point shot. That's probably the simplest way of changing things up.
If the NBA wants to stop guys from fouling, they should do 4 points for beyond the line; 3 points from inside the line; and all shooting fouls give the shooter 2 FTs worth 2 pts apiece. I'd also make the bonus on the 7th foul (possibly 8th) instead of 6th. But it would really disincentivize fouling, which might make for a more interesting game.
I just fear it would end up like an all star game where the score is 184-172 and little to no defense is played because of fouls. Some might love all the offense though.
Man, I can think of a ton off top of my head.
- Low post Center in NBA
- LOOGY in MLB
- Fullback in NFL
- Running back in general in NFL
- Kickoff returner in NFL
- “Goon” in NHL
Sports evolve.
I think I posted this before, but the thing that has changed a lot, and unless you watched hoops in the 60-80s, its not obvious, is the rebounding and infighting in the paint that has more and more become less important in the game. With everyone on the perimeter save your rim protector, there is no boxing out and a shot goes up from 3-land, (increasingly) and most of the time 9 guys watch and unless there's a long board, they run to the other end. I should check it out, but from the eye test, I assume O boards to total boards is way down over the past 20-30 years, as the 3 has become the shot of choice. And its not like guys are hitting 50% on 3s, there are a lot of missed shots at 35+% with little associated action.
Aesthetically the game has suffered.
Aesthetically the game has suffered.
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Then divide all stats by 2 at the end of the game, so we keep history
Honestly I don't think the 3 is ruining the game, but I do believe the court is way to small for todays game. I am not pie in the sky enough to believe anything will ever change because of money, but yeah, I think the could needs to be 10-20 feet longer, and probably 10 feet wider. then you throw the 3 point line out to 25-27 feet, and all good.
If you like Offensive Rebounding, I fear you will definitely like tonight's game. :-(
I like physical hoops and the game played inside the paint and O-boarding is a big part of it. The 3-point shot has taken away a lot of that forever.And fwiw, O-boards now average about 10 a game down from almost 15 in the mid 80s.
I get it you like Romeo.b But, at least read what I wrote before coming after me.
I said a single skill, 3pt shooting and you list positions. Kids at all positions are eliminated from next levels based on 3pt shot. You list the opposite jobs with narrow skills. In a way you make my point for me. Thanks
Without looking I’m assuming the decrease in offensive rebounds occurred maybe 10-20 years ago when teams began scheming to prevent transition and not really anything to do with the most recent 3-point reliance. I will be interested to see if this is accurate but don’t have time to look right now.
LOL I’m not coming after you and not sure what this has to do with Romeo. You’re one of my favorites on here.
I don’t know…..I stated earlier today how 3-point shooting is more than a single skill in that you either need to create it or have teammates create it for you. Nobody is simply letting someone shoot 3-pointers in this league unless your name is Russ in which case everyone wants him to shoot them. Wouldn’t today’s QB’s who can now throw the ball on a dime be considered a single skill?
Seems like the solution to the problem above is to eliminate the 3 point shot for leagues prior to the high school or perhaps NCAA level.
Kids will get filtered out from advancing for all sorts of reasons. Shooting ability is key skill; height, length, and athleticism are also key criteria. Perhaps eliminating the 3 point shot from the early leagues would allow kids who have the athleticism but have not yet developed a 3 point shot to advance, as certainly 3 point shooting is something that can evolve over time among young kids.
I think there's a correaltion to increasing 3 pt shots, more misses, more D rebounds, and more perimeter play and fewer bodies in the paint so less O-boards. There is noticably fewer contested rebounds than in decades past.
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Disclaimer: I have no data and haven’t watched more than 3 minutes of a NBA game probably 2018.
The 3 pointer isn’t the issue, it’s the offensive approach and limited defense that kills the game to me. ISO ball is ugly. I had to watch Shaka Smart teams the last few years play ISO and wanted to gouge out my eyes. No movement, no chance for offensive rebounds - just guys standing around the arc with one man hovering outside the free throw line. Screen city, but no other real movement.
Defensive rules are partially to blame, but I’m an offensive guy moreso so can’t pinpoint what could fix the issue without making the game more physical which isn’t pretty either.
In college, if you watch for instance a Brad Underwood-coached team it to me is a good blend of 3s but with lots of off-ball motion and real pressure defense.
I quit watching the NBA not because offense specifically, but moreso because the defense became, frankly, lazy.
The 3 pointer isn’t the issue, it’s the offensive approach and limited defense that kills the game to me. ISO ball is ugly. I had to watch Shaka Smart teams the last few years play ISO and wanted to gouge out my eyes. No movement, no chance for offensive rebounds - just guys standing around the arc with one man hovering outside the free throw line. Screen city, but no other real movement.
Defensive rules are partially to blame, but I’m an offensive guy moreso so can’t pinpoint what could fix the issue without making the game more physical which isn’t pretty either.
In college, if you watch for instance a Brad Underwood-coached team it to me is a good blend of 3s but with lots of off-ball motion and real pressure defense.
I quit watching the NBA not because offense specifically, but moreso because the defense became, frankly, lazy.
Looking at offensive rebounds every 5 years since 1985:
1985: 14.3 off rpg, 89.1 fga/game, 3.1 3p fga/game, 45.3 missed fga/game, 32.9% offensive rebound percentage
1990: 13.8, 87.2, 6.6, 45.7, 32.1%
1995: 13.0, 81.5, 15.3, 43.5, 31.4%
1999: 12.6, 78.2, 13.2, 44, 30.2%
2000: 12.4, 82.1, 13.7, 45.3, 28.9%
2005: 12.0, 80.3, 15.8, 44.4, 28.7%
2010: 11.0, 81.7, 18.1, 44.0, 26.3%
2015: 10.9, 83.6, 22.4, 46.1, 25.1%
2021: 9.8, 88.4, 34.6, 47.2, 22.2%
During that same period, defensive rebound % has increased from 67% to 77.8%.
There does seem to be an inflection starting around 2000 of teams deemphasizing the offensive rebound: same number of misses, but 2 fewer offensive rebounds per game from 1985. There's also a clear correlation between 3 point attempts and offensive rebounds, which makes sense given that 3 pointers tend to lead to longer rebounds, which favors the defense. But teams are also collecting on fewer "reboundable" opportunities when on offense.
I included 2021 instead of 2020 as I wanted to eliminate any impact of the bubble and mid-season disruption. I added 1999 as that was the nadir of the NBA in terms of watchability. Field goal attempts have increased by 13%, three point attempts by 162%, and missed field goals by only 7.2% since those days of ugly-ball.
Seems much. It's not like pitch counts where you can do damage to the kid. At least not that I'm aware of.
Has nothing to do with protecting a young kid from shooting. Seems like reggie made a point about decent players being filtered out from advancing because they don't hit enough 3's, and I agree that may not be the best way to filter out young players from more elite competition.
I dunno, at that level athleticism and size plays out bigly. I don't think they are getting filtered out due to their shots, at least not NBA caliber prospects.
I think the fact that every play features 7 picks is the bigger problem. Pick and roll used to be great when it was about more than just creating mismatches
Appreciate the disclaimer. I think defense has become more high effort, more cognitively challenging, and more athletically challenging than ever.
I also think ISO ball died with the 2000's. Heliocentric offenses are a thing now but I believe assists are a high point and that conforms with the aesthetics of the game. And that is not even taking into account that raw shooting percentages are down since guys take so many more 3s.
There's a lot of movement, passing, and open spaces to exploit.
I won't argue with someone's personal tastes regarding the state of the game but this description of modern NBA basketball compels me to try and set the record straight.
This is interesting. I find that defensive schemes and effort are more intricate than ever. Unlike prior years, if you cannot properly execute the reads in a defensive set you can’t play as one player can now sabotage the entire defensive possession if he misses his assignment.
I'm mostly with you wrt stylistics. The counterargument, however, is that a 16-footer is higher probability of going in, so you should see more made shots during the game if they're emphasized. Not sure I really agree with that or care about it, but I can understand it.
Yeah, "NBA players don't play defense anymore" is a braindead take from people who don't understand the sport at more than a cursory level.
As a very casual fan, the first paragraph was basically all it took for me to stop watching completely. Those who are already invested may agree with you on point two, but to someone like me who can't appreciate the sabremetrics portion for this particular sport, it's too late to bring me back in.
If more casual fans like it now than did before, and the people who actually pay attention to the sport enjoy the product now, what's the problem?
I liked baseball as a kid, don't watch it now, and don't really make a big deal about it.
I don't really like the NBA as three point shooting contest.... but... it became clear to me in the playoffs last year, is that it's less that I hate the current product and more that I hate watching the current version of the Celtics.
I will say that Jokic is probably my favorite NBA player right now, he just does stuff no one can do anymore.
I will say that Jokic is probably my favorite NBA player right now, he just does stuff no one can do anymore.
Maybe he liked the Bad Boy era of basketball? There are a rare few. The Mike Fratello Cavs, yuck.
Some people are turned off by 120-118 scores and assume no defense is being played. In the 90s, the Cavs playing the Heat would be like 84-78.
I think that this is partly the legacy of the old illegal defense rules. Folks remember a lot more man, and teams utilize much more complex schemes now because they can. If you haven't watched a lot of games in the last few years, it probably just looks like a bunch of defenders just standing around.
Yeah, well said....it used to be that you could hide a poor defensive player but not any more. Never more of a demand for 2 way players than now due to what you concisely describe.
The biggest area for me where the 3 point has changed the visual enjoyment of the game is the fast break. One of my favorite things in life used to be watching a well orchestrated 3 man fast break, with players thundering down the wings waiting for a no look pass to flush one down on someone. Now they just run to the corners. Overall I still love the NBA but this is one thing I'll always wish came back.
I must admit I cringe NBA and college, when I see a fast break which should be a 2-1 and easy layup dunk, instead see the wing drift off to the corner, and the guard pass up the layup for a 3
This has to be it. I HATED the early 90s brutal defense - give me man, all day every day.
I mentioned ISO and was shot down but I think that might be a terminology thing - I learned the offensive style of pick play after pick play as ISO.
I thini in general when people are talking about ISO, it's a guy taking his guy off the dribble 1v1. Maybe he used a pick to generate a switch onto a guy that he wants, but then the floor spreads and we're back to 1v1.
My point was that the elimination of the illegal defense rules (mostly eliminated), enabled team defense concepts that were previously illegal. Guys can cover nobody, play old school zone, and jump passing lanes and doubleteam/fake doubleteam as much as they want. If you're in your 40s or 50s, you didn't grow up watching that NBA. So it looks like a whole bunch of guys doing nothing. But it's really guys taking away things that the offense wants to do.