Joe Mazzulla officially named head coach

TrapperAB

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On the one hand, I can see the value in giving Mazzulla another season, with some deeply experienced assistant coaches on hand to help.

On the other, if they're swept out of the playoffs, can you really see Brad saying, "Let's just run it back"?

Can this roster (minus Pritchard and maybe Grant) just go on vacation, clear their heads, and go into '23-'24 with all of the same questions looming over everything?
 

Patriot_Reign

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On the one hand, I can see the value in giving Mazzulla another season, with some deeply experienced assistant coaches on hand to help.
Assuming every veteran assistant coach wants to become a head coach isn't that a bit of a conundrum?
 

lexrageorge

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Assuming every veteran assistant coach wants to become a head coach isn't that a bit of a conundrum?
There are only so many head coaching positions available in any given season. So there should still be ample assistants with the requisite experience available.
 

TrapperAB

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There are only so many head coaching positions available in any given season. So there should still be ample assistants with the requisite experience available.
With the added upside that they were instrumental in righting the ship -- it's possible to get a lot of credit but little of the blame if things go down in flames.
 

TripleOT

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Spo got his coaching butt kicked in Game 4. He couldn’t figure out how to stymie Boston’s runs, and couldn’t get his team to blunt their pace when Boston amped it up in the second half. In the second half, his team didn‘t space out well on the perimeter when Butler drove and was slowed by his man and help. He really didn’t have his team in the right mindset out of the locker room at halftime. They were often out of position in the third, and got into the penalty really early. Spo had no answers for Boston coming out of time outs in the second half. With Bam struggling, he never figured out how to get him going.
 

Cellar-Door

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Spo got his coaching butt kicked in Game 4. He couldn’t figure out how to stymie Boston’s runs, and couldn’t get his team to blunt their pace when Boston amped it up in the second half. In the second half, his team didn‘t space out well on the perimeter when Butler drove and was slowed by his man and help. He really didn’t have his team in the right mindset out of the locker room at halftime. They were often out of position in the third, and got into the penalty really early. Spo had no answers for Boston coming out of time outs in the second half. With Bam struggling, he never figured out how to get him going.
I thought this was a really good game for Mazz, made some small adjustments on offense to get more motion, on D mixed in late shows, hard doubles, etc on Butler. Great TO usage, good subs generally... all around strong game.
 

lovegtm

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I thought this was a really good game for Mazz, made some small adjustments on offense to get more motion, on D mixed in late shows, hard doubles, etc on Butler. Great TO usage, good subs generally... all around strong game.
If Tatum likes him, I think he's back now, with some quality assistants. Very encouraging to see the team not quit and go the exact opposite direction. If they compete like that defensively in game 5, I'd say like 95%+ we see Joe next year.
 

Deathofthebambino

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If Tatum likes him, I think he's back now, with some quality assistants. Very encouraging to see the team not quit and go the exact opposite direction. If they compete like that defensively in game 5, I'd say like 95%+ we see Joe next year.
This is 100% true. Tatum will decide who is coaching next year, and the year after, and the decade or so following that too.

I'm not a believer in Joe, but I'll give him credit. Last night was a really, really well coached game (although I'd prefer less Brogdon at many points, and if Marcus doesn't make some 3's, this could be very different). The timeout usage in particular was massive, IMO. Going to Grant, which many of us have called for weeks, was massive. Figuring out how to actually break the zone, and doing so quickly enough that Spo just said "fuck it, go back to man" was massive.

So hat tip for Joe, but it's going to definitely take more than one good game for me to be on board.
 

Auger34

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[/QUOTE]
This is 100% true. Tatum will decide who is coaching next year, and the year after, and the decade or so following that too.

I'm not a believer in Joe, but I'll give him credit. Last night was a really, really well coached game (although I'd prefer less Brogdon at many points, and if Marcus doesn't make some 3's, this could be very different). The timeout usage in particular was massive, IMO. Going to Grant, which many of us have called for weeks, was massive. Figuring out how to actually break the zone, and doing so quickly enough that Spo just said "fuck it, go back to man" was massive.

So hat tip for Joe, but it's going to definitely take more than one good game for me to be on board.
This is incredibly fair.

I think he's coming back next year for sure after last night. I thought he coached a very good game....but the things that are often being cited for him coaching a good game were things that the fans here and the media have been calling for for a long time (play Tatum at the nail in the 2-3 zone, use your timeouts better instead of sitting on them, Grant should be the 8th man unless it's a series where he's obviously not a fit, play with pace). So, while I give him a lot of credit, I am still not fully sold on him as a coach
 

mikeot

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Backstory on Joe now being massaged by the media:, via SVG et al: thrust into the role with zero time to prepare, most or all of the experienced assistants gone, acommodations for his learning curb determining it was still an achievement to get this far. I doubt he'll be gone anytime soon.
 

Cellar-Door

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Backstory on Joe now being massaged by the media:, via SVG et al: thrust into the role with zero time to prepare, most or all of the experienced assistants gone, acommodations for his learning curb determining it was still an achievement to get this far. I doubt he'll be gone anytime soon.
I thought he was safe until Game 3, but coming back with a really strong game 4, and the players pushing back on the idea that they had issues with him made me feel like he's fine. A 4 game embarrassment sweep and a feeling the team quit on him were the only ways he got fired.
 

Justthetippett

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Maybe it's nothing but Tatum's body language toward CJM is not great. They can grow together but I have the feeling there's not the same respect there as he had with Brad and Ime. CJM has to figure that out or he's gone. I agree the positive Game 4 performance bought him some time.
 

kazuneko

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Backstory on Joe now being massaged by the media:, via SVG et al: thrust into the role with zero time to prepare, most or all of the experienced assistants gone, acommodations for his learning curb determining it was still an achievement to get this far. I doubt he'll be gone anytime soon.
No one blames Mazzulla but that doesn’t mean he shouldn’t get fired. He was thrust into a difficult situation and by all accounts has worked his ass off. But he doesn’t work an office job, he’s an NBA coach. Championship windows are brief and rare in this league. Does anyone really think that Mazzulla is the best option available to lead this team to their next title? That’s the only question that matters.
 
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TrapperAB

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No one blames Mazzulla but that doesn’t mean he shouldn’t get fired. He was thrust into a difficult situation and by all accounts has worked his ass off. But he doesn’t work an office job l, he’s an NBA coach. Championship windows are brief and rare in this league. Does anyone really think that Mazzulla is the best option available to lead this team to their next title? That’s the only question that matters.
Pure speculation: POBOBS is currently gauging the "veteran assistant/former head coach/mentor/advisor" market. If he can get one or two guys who can shepherd the team as Mazzulla continues to learn on the fly, then Joe keeps the job. If no one is interested, then the Celts get in on the Nick Nurse sweepstakes.
 
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TripleOT

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For those who want to move on from Mazzulla, will you feel the same way if the Cs reverse sweep the Heat and win the championship? How about if they lose a competitive Finals?

Nurse is certainly considered a better NBA coach, and probably still will be if any of the above happens.
 

kazuneko

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For those who want to move on from Mazzulla, will you feel the same way if the Cs reverse sweep the Heat and win the championship? How about if they lose a competitive Finals?

Nurse is certainly considered a better NBA coach, and probably still will be if any of the above happens.
Obviously if they win the championship Joe’s job is secure. Not sure if you could even recruit another coach if you fired him. Who would want to work for a franchise that axes someone immediately after winning a championship? I’d also assume Mazz coaches a bit better if they pull off a title.
But assuming they lose to Miami no one will blame them for cutting ties with Mazzulla. And I still haven’t seen anyone argue that this team’s best chance of winning a championship in 2024 is with Mazz as coach.
 

NomarsFool

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Agree they don't fire Mazz if he wins the championship - that'd be absurd.

There is a remote chance, not likely, but a chance that they could find a mutually acceptable situation where he goes back to being an assistant. Again, it's not likely, but not outside the realm of possibility that Joe might come to the self-realization (or encouraged self-realization) that this isn't really what he wants, and that he's not quite ready.
 

Cellar-Door

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Here's the argument for Joe giving them the best chance in 2024....
You know Joe's floor, his 1st year with no assistants he lead you to the best net rating in the league 2nd in offense and defense, you went to at least the ECF... he made some mistakes, but he's a rookie with an embarrassingly barebones staff, none of whom he chose.
The guys who are out there all got fired after worse production... sure they are vets, and some have rings... they also all got fired because they have plenty of flaws of their own. Bud has long been thought of as a regular season gimmick coach, he was on the verge of firing when he (kinda lucked into) won a title in a weird year with the 2 time MVP, Nurse got a ring with Kawhi, but his overall resume is... okay? Doc has some of the worst playoff results in the last decade of anyone. None of those guys are shoo-ins to be significantly better than Joe in the playoffs, which is where you might be concerned, since the regular season they rolled to the 2nd best record and best net rating.
 

slamminsammya

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Here's the argument for Joe giving them the best chance in 2024....
You know Joe's floor, his 1st year with no assistants he lead you to the best net rating in the league 2nd in offense and defense, you went to at least the ECF... he made some mistakes, but he's a rookie with an embarrassingly barebones staff, none of whom he chose.
The guys who are out there all got fired after worse production... sure they are vets, and some have rings... they also all got fired because they have plenty of flaws of their own. Bud has long been thought of as a regular season gimmick coach, he was on the verge of firing when he (kinda lucked into) won a title in a weird year with the 2 time MVP, Nurse got a ring with Kawhi, but his overall resume is... okay? Doc has some of the worst playoff results in the last decade of anyone. None of those guys are shoo-ins to be significantly better than Joe in the playoffs, which is where you might be concerned, since the regular season they rolled to the 2nd best record and best net rating.
I've always felt nurse was pretty overrated. Playing junk defenses is conspicuous "look the coach did a thing" stuff but the Toronto teams were stacked with defensive.talent anyways.
 

Jakarta

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If they don’t win the title this year, the lead assistant should actually be a very desirable role. Being a slump away from being the head coach on one of the top title contenders should help to lure someone like Silas or Monty.
 

kazuneko

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If they don’t win the title this year, the lead assistant should actually be a very desirable role. Being a slump away from being the head coach on one of the top title contenders should help to lure someone like Silas or Monty.
Monty is one of the top names available. Doubt he’s taking anything other than a head coach job..
 

Cellar-Door

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I'm baffled people would want Monty (edit- as a head coach), Monty is like a Doc Rivers with less success, he's a culture builder guy, he's who you get when you're a loser franchise trying to turn it around and make the playoffs, he's not a good adjustments coach at all.

Honestly I think the coaches who would be clear upgrades all aren't available, because they have good jobs.

Edit- I think there are a lot of interesting assistants though... Vogel, Charles Lee, Atkinson, Jerome Allen, Sam Cassell, James Borrego, Dave Joerger, etc. Now 1 or 2 of those guys might get a head coaching job, some might follow their newly unemployed bosses to their next stop, and some that are employed may stay, but that is just the top level, lot of good coaches looking for spots, at least some might be interested in 1st chair behind Mazz, especially since he's likely building a staff almost from scratch so you can come in and be the guy and get a lot of credit (also the team is going to be good, so if you come in and are the "defense guy", well this defense has been top 2 consecutive years, it's probably going to be top 3 next year too.)
 
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kazuneko

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What do people think of Vogel? I’ve heard him referenced as one of the top defensive coaches in the league.
 
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TripleOT

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James Posey, in his first year with the Wizards, would be a good addition. He was an assistant with the Cavs for six seasons, including the title year. He’s probably not a first chair guy, but has a pedigree as a successful, hard nosed player. Especially if they don’t win the title this season, having a connection to the 2008 title team would be valuable.
 

Ale Xander

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James Posey, in his first year with the Wizards, would be a good addition. He was an assistant with the Cavs for six seasons, including the title year. He’s probably not a first chair guy, but has a pedigree as a successful, hard nosed player. Especially if they don’t win the title this season, having a connection to the 2008 title team would be valuable.
I’m dumbfounded why they didn’t get him as a replacement (for Hardy or Damon) (with a salary and position bump) for the reasons you mentioned

his intangibles were very key on 2008 (as well as the 6th man with 3 and d and rebounding skills)
 

TripleOT

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I’m dumbfounded why they didn’t get him as a replacement (with a salary and position bump) for the reasons you mentioned
He was just hired a few months before the Udoka story broke, and had been out of coaching for a few seasons. Probably not the best position to ask to talk with another team about their relatively lateral job opening. Plus, they then had the former player filled by Damon Stoudemire
 

Cellar-Door

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I’m dumbfounded why they didn’t get him as a replacement (for Hardy or Damon) (with a salary and position bump) for the reasons you mentioned

his intangibles were very key on 2008 (as well as the 6th man with 3 and d and rebounding skills)
Because outside of Mazz Brad generally let Ime choose his own assistants, which most teams do. Ime is the one who didn't hire a new assistant, instead promoting a video guy and sliding everyone up a seat. Then when he got suspended... guys like Posey were 3 months into prep with their new teams and weren't going to leave.

That's really the thing... the only people they could reasonably have added to the staff when they suspended Ime were guys who were completely unemployed, and even then it was a weird spot, because Ime was suspended not fired, so guys were looking at it unsure whose staff it would be in a year, so who is making the hire... Mazzulla, Stevens? If you go there you have no season prep time and in a year Ime might not want you.

Basically the timing screwed everyone. If Ime got suspended right after the finals, guys would have still been available.
 

TripleOT

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Because outside of Mazz Brad generally let Ime choose his own assistants, which most teams do. Ime is the one who didn't hire a new assistant, instead promoting a video guy and sliding everyone up a seat. Then when he got suspended... guys like Posey were 3 months into prep with their new teams and weren't going to leave.

That's really the thing... the only people they could reasonably have added to the staff when they suspended Ime were guys who were completely unemployed, and even then it was a weird spot, because Ime was suspended not fired, so guys were looking at it unsure whose staff it would be in a year, so who is making the hire... Mazzulla, Stevens? If you go there you have no season prep time and in a year Ime might not want you.

Basically the timing screwed everyone. If Ime got suspended right after the finals, guys would have still been available.
Good points. An old hand like Vogel might have been the right move, in hindsight. Of course, the downside could have been him organically, not nefariously, taking gravitas away from the young head coach due to his many years of experience. It will be much easier to integrate a NBA lifer into the coaching staff after the championship parade.
 

Cellar-Door

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Good points. An old hand like Vogel might have been the right move, in hindsight. Of course, the downside could have been him organically, not nefariously, taking gravitas away from the young head coach due to his many years of experience. It will be much easier to integrate a NBA lifer into the coaching staff after the championship parade.
They might have reached out and he wanted a year off after the Lakers job. I know they got permission and talked to Larranaga about coming back, but he decided to stay in LA

Wasnt he on the 08 coaching staff? Run it back!
He was long gone by 08, his last year was 2004 under Jim O'Brien, followed JOB to PHI, then IND until he replaced JOB in Indy.
 

lovegtm

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Here's the argument for Joe giving them the best chance in 2024....
You know Joe's floor, his 1st year with no assistants he lead you to the best net rating in the league 2nd in offense and defense, you went to at least the ECF... he made some mistakes, but he's a rookie with an embarrassingly barebones staff, none of whom he chose.
The guys who are out there all got fired after worse production... sure they are vets, and some have rings... they also all got fired because they have plenty of flaws of their own. Bud has long been thought of as a regular season gimmick coach, he was on the verge of firing when he (kinda lucked into) won a title in a weird year with the 2 time MVP, Nurse got a ring with Kawhi, but his overall resume is... okay? Doc has some of the worst playoff results in the last decade of anyone. None of those guys are shoo-ins to be significantly better than Joe in the playoffs, which is where you might be concerned, since the regular season they rolled to the 2nd best record and best net rating.
Yes, people really overrate the other coaches who were available, and I'm not sure why. If people don't like Joe, they would hate most of those retreads, because they have the same flaws but haven't even fixed them over the years.
 

Euclis20

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Two things can absolutely be true:

-Mazzulla has been overwhelmed at times during the season and in the playoffs, and it may eventually doom the Celtics.
-Mazzulla is the right man for the job next year, in part because a better candidate isn't available and in part because he'll just be better at his job (with more assistant coaches, another year on the job, and a full offseason to prepare).
 

BringBackMo

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You know Joe's floor, his 1st year with no assistants he lead you to the best net rating in the league 2nd in offense and defense, you went to at least the ECF... he made some mistakes, but he's a rookie with an embarrassingly barebones staff, none of whom he chose.
This is very well stated and, when you think about it, a pretty lonely way to have to power through learning on the job. I am grateful that I was given the opportunity to grow through early stumbles and become a wiser and better version of my professional self. That is certainly not to say that the Celtics *should* bring Mazzulla back—I trust Stevens to make the right call on what’s best for the team—but I‘m open to the idea that there’s a lot more potential here that a patient team (and one perhaps not in the middle of a championship window) could tap.
 

lovegtm

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Rather than a recommendation, I'll make a prediction:

Regardless of what happens tonight, Mazzulla is back. There isn't another coach out there who really moves the needle (depending on what you think of Nurse), and continuity is more important than Xs and Os.

They'll bring in some solid assistants, reset the culture, optimize Xs and Os, shake up the roster some (as Jaylen's situation plays out). By next January, everyone will be talking about how disciplined Brad was to stay the course and not give in to media pressure to fire Joe.
 

bigq

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Rather than a recommendation, I'll make a prediction:

Regardless of what happens tonight, Mazzulla is back. There isn't another coach out there who really moves the needle (depending on what you think of Nurse), and continuity is more important than Xs and Os.

They'll bring in some solid assistants, reset the culture, optimize Xs and Os, shake up the roster some (as Jaylen's situation plays out). By next January, everyone will be talking about how disciplined Brad was to stay the course and not give in to media pressure to fire Joe.
This is where I am at as well. Changing coaches may be path of least resistance for management to say we are doing something and fans often go along with that because they can see in real time mistakes that are made by the coach. But guess what, every coach makes lots of mistakes and whoever comes in next will as well. And to your prior point, all of the available head coaching candidates have warts too.

I am not convinced something needs to be done at the head coaching level for the Celtics. Continuity has benefits and I do not think a 4th new head coach in 4 years is good for this group. Giving Mazzulla a full off season to add to his staff and put in place a plan for next year feels right to me. That being said, if Tatum decides the Celtics need a new head coach they will probably get one but that doesn't seem like something he would force.
 

Auger34

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My ending point is that I think Mazzulla has earned the right to coach the team next year and i think, for this particular team, he is the best option but I do want to go more in depth. I think it’s very appropriate to criticize Mazzulla’s coaching and process this year while still thinking he should be the coach next year.

A couple of things in more detail:

-CJM should be given the chance to hire assistants and have a full off season of prep. He should be STRONGLY encouraged to look for assistants with a wealth of experience and defensive backgrounds. It seems like Stephen Silas is already penciled in for one of those assistant spots. If he doesn’t get the Phoenix job, I wouldnt be surprised if Vogel is hired as the “bench coach” aka the #2 guy. If not Vogel, Cellar Door brought up a bunch of interesting names (Jerome Allen has familiarity with the team, Joerger is a former head coach and well respected, same with Borrego). Dan Burke of the Sixers is someone who has a very strong defensive reputation and could be looking for a job. This isn’t a must but I would also prefer that some of these guys are hard asses who aren’t afraid to get into the players. I think every staff needs 1-3 of those types
Since Ben Sullivan seems to be following Ime, I would like to see them hire a well renowned “shot doctor” to replace him.

-It was a failure on Brad Stevens part to not bring in an experienced assistant. I understand that it was late in the process and the options were limited. I don’t care. That should have been an urgent priority. I completely disagree with the idea that coaches would have been scared off because Ime might come back. It was pretty obvious that he was done once he got suspended.

-Joe has been a subpar coach in the playoffs. I think a strong argument could be made that he was outright bad. If you are very pro Joe, I think the best you could say is that he was mediocre. I’m not going to go in depth on in game adjustments or timeout usage (before last game) because they’ve both been very bad and well documented. His game to game adjustments, particularly rotation wise, get to the right place but they have been too slow. Grant not being a part of the rotation at all and then playing clutch 4th quarter minutes in this series is puzzling (to put it kindly); Grant not immediately being the 8th man against the Sixers and Heat is mystifying. Payton Pritchard, after being on ice the entire year, getting 12 minutes in Game 1 of this series was bizarre and stupid

I think any of the other coaches being bandied about (with the exception of Doc) would have done a better job than Joe this postseason. They all have warts and they were all fired but they all had teams with significantly less talent and more significant injuries. They all have gravitas and knowledge that comes with the experience of coaching and having been there before.

However, that’s all moot. Going into next year, I suspect that Nurse/Monty/Vogel/Bud are all still better head coaches than Joe in a vacuum. Nurse especially but I don’t think he would be a good fit with this team (the core has previously expressed it was important that the coach be an African American and a former player. Mazzulla didn’t make it in the NBA but he was still a strong player.)
But this isn’t a vacuum and I think Joe is the best coach for this particular group of players next year.
 

lovegtm

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My ending point is that I think Mazzulla has earned the right to coach the team next year and i think, for this particular team, he is the best option but I do want to go more in depth. I think it’s very appropriate to criticize Mazzulla’s coaching and process this year while still thinking he should be the coach next year.

A couple of things in more detail:

-CJM should be given the chance to hire assistants and have a full off season of prep. He should be STRONGLY encouraged to look for assistants with a wealth of experience and defensive backgrounds. It seems like Stephen Silas is already penciled in for one of those assistant spots. If he doesn’t get the Phoenix job, I wouldnt be surprised if Vogel is hired as the “bench coach” aka the #2 guy. If not Vogel, Cellar Door brought up a bunch of interesting names (Jerome Allen has familiarity with the team, Joerger is a former head coach and well respected, same with Borrego). Dan Burke of the Sixers is someone who has a very strong defensive reputation and could be looking for a job. This isn’t a must but I would also prefer that some of these guys are hard asses who aren’t afraid to get into the players. I think every staff needs 1-3 of those types
Since Ben Sullivan seems to be following Ime, I would like to see them hire a well renowned “shot doctor” to replace him.

-It was a failure on Brad Stevens part to not bring in an experienced assistant. I understand that it was late in the process and the options were limited. I don’t care. That should have been an urgent priority. I completely disagree with the idea that coaches would have been scared off because Ime might come back. It was pretty obvious that he was done once he got suspended.

-Joe has been a subpar coach in the playoffs. I think a strong argument could be made that he was outright bad. If you are very pro Joe, I think the best you could say is that he was mediocre. I’m not going to go in depth on in game adjustments or timeout usage (before last game) because they’ve both been very bad and well documented. His game to game adjustments, particularly rotation wise, get to the right place but they have been too slow. Grant not being a part of the rotation at all and then playing clutch 4th quarter minutes in this series is puzzling (to put it kindly); Grant not immediately being the 8th man against the Sixers and Heat is mystifying. Payton Pritchard, after being on ice the entire year, getting 12 minutes in Game 1 of this series was bizarre and stupid

I think any of the other coaches being bandied about (with the exception of Doc) would have done a better job than Joe this postseason. They all have warts and they were all fired but they all had teams with significantly less talent and more significant injuries. They all have gravitas and knowledge that comes with the experience of coaching and having been there before.

However, that’s all moot. Going into next year, I suspect that Nurse/Monty/Vogel/Bud are all still better head coaches than Joe in a vacuum. Nurse especially but I don’t think he would be a good fit with this team (the core has previously expressed it was important that the coach be an African American and a former player. Mazzulla didn’t make it in the NBA but he was still a strong player.)
But this isn’t a vacuum and I think Joe is the best coach for this particular group of players next year.
It's a good point re race: the team's stars clearly wanted a black coach, and firing Ime and replacing him with even Hardy would have looked bad. I think that calculus still holds true, and I'd MUCH rather have Joe than Monty.

I also don't fully buy the "no time to learn on the job; limited window" thing. Saint Eric Spoelstra turned in a bad 2011 Finals, had a VERY limited window, and learned on the job. If you think Joe has an NBA future, best to roll with him imo.
 

FanRoy

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I'm going to try to be as tactful as possible, because I'm genuinely coming from a place of wonder here. But, if a group of white men demanded that their boss only be white, wouldn't that come off as... super racist?

I get the historical element and background, political climate, etc. I know they connect with who they connect with. But..... still? Why does everyone simply say, "No problem, I get it," when if the shoe were on the other foot, you'd see a.... much worse reaction?

I'm really interested to hear some thoughts on this, because all racism is bad. Judging people on the color of their skin is bad. If a group of people immediately rejects someone based on that one characteristic alone, well that's not good, right? Or it at least should be talked about. I don't follow sports media, I basically only watch games, discuss with a few friends, and read here, so I'm not sure if I missed any discussion on this. Just curious.

This could be a learning point for me, but it just doesn't quite feel right on the face of it.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Mar 26, 2005
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I'm going to try to be as tactful as possible, because I'm genuinely coming from a place of wonder here. But, if a group of white men demanded that their boss only be white, wouldn't that come off as... super racist?

I get the historical element and background, political climate, etc. I know they connect with who they connect with. But..... still? Why does everyone simply say, "No problem, I get it," when if the shoe were on the other foot, you'd see a.... much worse reaction?

I'm really interested to hear some thoughts on this, because all racism is bad. Judging people on the color of their skin is bad. If a group of people immediately rejects someone based on that one characteristic alone, well that's not good, right? Or it at least should be talked about. I don't follow sports media, I basically only watch games, discuss with a few friends, and read here, so I'm not sure if I missed any discussion on this. Just curious.

This could be a learning point for me, but it just doesn't quite feel right on the face of it.
V&N discussion is strictly verboten here so hopefully this will suffice (and not run afoul of any rules).

In a situation where 70+% of the players are black and until this year, there were only 6-7 black head coaches (see here), there is nothing wrong with players asking for the NBA coaching population to be more akin to the player population.
 

ManicCompression

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In a situation where 70+% of the players are black and until this year, there were only 6-7 black head coaches (see here), there is nothing wrong with players asking for the NBA coaching population to be more akin to the player population.
I just want to say - the logical endpoint for this argument is that a woman should never be an NBA head coach.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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I just want to say - the logical endpoint for this argument is that a woman should never be an NBA head coach.
That would be the illogical endpoint as your point doesn't follow from the premise.

Besides, women have their own hurdles when it comes to coaching (in any capacity) men at the professional level.
 

ManicCompression

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That would be the illogical endpoint as your point doesn't follow from the premise.

Besides, women have their own hurdles when it comes to coaching (in any capacity) men at the professional level.
How is that? If the goal is for the coaching population to match the player population, then there's no room for women because women don't play in the NBA.

I'm just saying - people repeat this mantra that certain census categories have to match in order for coaches to connect with players, and if that's the accepted norm, then the Becky Hammons of the world have no shot.

I'm all for more black coaches getting more opportunities, but I disagree that the foundation of that argument should be what you stated above because it makes it acceptable to disqualify others for reasons they can't change.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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How is that? If the goal is for the coaching population to match the player population, then there's no room for women because women don't play in the NBA.

I'm just saying - people repeat this mantra that certain census categories have to match in order for coaches to connect with players, and if that's the accepted norm, then the Becky Hammons of the world have no shot.

I'm all for more black coaches getting more opportunities, but I disagree that the foundation of that argument should be what you stated above because it makes it acceptable to disqualify others for reasons they can't change.
I'm trying to be careful here.

First, the question was whether anything was wrong. The answer is nothing was wrong.

Second, no one said anything about "match.". "More akin" does not mean "match".. The facts are that black coaches have been underrepresented. The players clearly asked for additional representation. (I'll note that black coaches are still underrepresented when compared to players.). With 7 coaches out of 30, it's not surprising peole would take notice.

But more does not mean match. Which is why your post did not logically follow.
 

ManicCompression

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Second, no one said anything about "match.". "More akin" does not mean "match".. The facts are that black coaches have been underrepresented. The players clearly asked for additional representation. (I'll note that black coaches are still underrepresented when compared to players.). With 7 coaches out of 30, it's not surprising peole would take notice.
The general principal applies. "More akin" "matching" whatever - so long as you're saying that these characteristics fundamentally matter to coaching basketball players, you're providing a reason to not hire people people who don't have those characteristics, women being the most obvious group.

No is disputing the underrepresentation. You're stating the obvious there.
 

FanRoy

New Member
Aug 14, 2008
48
Orlando, FL
Follow up on the argument that the NBA head coaching pool should closely (or more closely) match the player pool by race. Would it be more fair/equitable/(insert adjective) to say that maybe it should more closely match the available coaching pool if we’re looking to fairly represent the dataset? Like if only 30% of coaches in the entire sport are one group of people… wouldn’t it stand to reason that 30% of that group are also coaches at the highest level?

Full disclosure, I have absolutely no idea what those numbers/percentages are in reality, I’m just trying to see this issue more clearly. I’m genuinely trying to learn something here. Because I’m not sure I understand the opposing point of view as it stands.
 

FanRoy

New Member
Aug 14, 2008
48
Orlando, FL
I apologize for the digression, if this is indeed not the place for the topic, please delete my posts. There is no other avenue for me to ask these questions since I don’t have access to V&N but I wanted to see others thoughts on this.
 

Myt1

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I'm trying to be careful here.

First, the question was whether anything was wrong. The answer is nothing was wrong.

Second, no one said anything about "match.". "More akin" does not mean "match".. The facts are that black coaches have been underrepresented. The players clearly asked for additional representation. (I'll note that black coaches are still underrepresented when compared to players.). With 7 coaches out of 30, it's not surprising peole would take notice.

But more does not mean match. Which is why your post did not logically follow.
Hiring a woman would make it “less akin,” to the player pool, right? :)