Joe Mazzulla officially named head coach

Auger34

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I can't read it because it's paywalled, but early days of Spo? Spo was an assistant coach for 11 years in Miami before becoming head coach and became head coach at 38. Joe Mazzula was an assistant for 3 years and became head coach at 34. Spo inherited a Miami team that went 15-67 the year before he became head coach with a prime Dwayne Wade, and he turned them into a 43-39 team in year 2. Mazzulla inherited a team that went to the Finals last year, and got better on paper in the offseason. In Spo's 3rd season, they went and got him Lebron and Bosh, and they lost in the Finals. That's the team that Mazzulla inherited this season.

Again, I can't read the article, but I see almost no parallels between Spo/Heat, and Mazz/C's other than the fact they were both assistants before becoming head coach.
They aren't similar at all (as you pointed out). It's an example of a team sticking with a coach through tough times and there really aren't many of those out there in the NBA so Spo kind of has to be used.
 

Deathofthebambino

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They aren't similar at all (as you pointed out). It's an example of a team sticking with a coach through tough times and there really aren't many of those out there in the NBA so Spo kind of has to be used.
If that's the case, then if you eliminate the assistant coach part of the equation, Brad Stevens would be a better comp to Spo than Mazz would be. He inherited a 41-40 team and went 25-57 in year 1, then 40-42 and swept in the 1st round, and then built up from there. The C's stuck with him through a terrible year, and a few pretty mediocre seasons (but not really given their talent). The C's then filled out a roster for him in year 5 with Tatum showing up, Al, Kyrie, Jaylen in his 2nd year, etc. and they lost in game 7 of the ECF to Lebron.

Either way, there are very few similarities between Spo and anyone else coaching in today's game.
 

BaseballJones

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Here's what Miami's shooters have done on "open" (defender is 4-6 feet away) and "wide open" (defender is 6+ feet away) threes, in both the regular season and playoffs...

Martin:
- Open: RS (37.2%), Playoffs (47.8%) = +10.6%
- Wide Open: (34.9%), Playoffs (38.5%) = +3.6%

Robinson:
- Open: RS (40.4%), Playoffs (46.7%) = +6.3%
- Wide Open: RS (29.6%), Playoffs (57.9%) = +28.3%

Vincent:
- Open: RS (29.9%), Playoffs (44.7%) = +14.8%
- Wide Open: RS (37.3%), Playoffs (34.4%) = -2.9%

Strus:
- Open: RS (36.6%), Playoffs (42.9%) = +6.3%
- Wide Open: RS (42.9%), Playoffs (55.6%) = +12.7%

Lowry:
- Open: RS (39.0%), Playoffs (25.9%) = -13.1%
- Wide Open: RS (31.8%), Playoffs (64.3%) = +32.5%

So Miami is going bonkers from three on these uncontested looks. They are shooting WAY better on these shots than they did during the regular season.
 

DourDoerr

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The thing about moving on from Mazzulla is that then they get in this cycle where they have to fire every coach who doesn't make the NBA Finals, or who the players don't like.

If we step out of being fans for a moment and look at it like he's a new hire at a company after one year, it kind of has a different feel. I'm sure Stevens et al understood that they were hiring a young coach with not a ton of experience and that there would be growing pains, but they hired him nonetheless. Has much changed from that? Can we really conclude that Mazzulla is terrible and not going to get better and that any replacement hire will be? I think the Celtics need to be careful that they don't turn this into a James Dolan/Henry VIII situation where every guy that isn't yours is the shiny object and everything is dysfunctional.
It depends on which players don't like the coach. If you want to keep, say, Tatum, then you'd better have a coach he either likes or respects and hopefully both. The organization gets a pass on this hire if they decide to fire Mazzulla. The circumstance of the hire was unprecedented and the timing basically dictated next man up in the organization. Unfortunately, that was the 34 YO with minimal experience. As we've all gone over, the in-season coaching attrition was acute and horribly timed as well.

I think the players' public comments - and the fact that they're public - signals they're ready to move on and the team's play this round seems to back that up. I think it'll take an epic comeback in this round and at least a dogfight in the finals with Mazzulla making visible adjustments for him to keep his job.

I'm curious to see who PBS would hire. When he's reached outside the organization, he's gone 1 for 1 (and I'm just judging Ime on the on-court performance). PBS has shown a sharp eye so far in all phases, and, of course, he has his own coaching experience and contacts to inform his decision. If Danny has anyone on his shortlist, he owes PBS. I'm guessing PBS will do well with his next hire.
 

OurF'ingCity

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The thing about moving on from Mazzulla is that then they get in this cycle where they have to fire every coach who doesn't make the NBA Finals, or who the players don't like.

If we step out of being fans for a moment and look at it like he's a new hire at a company after one year, it kind of has a different feel. I'm sure Stevens et al understood that they were hiring a young coach with not a ton of experience and that there would be growing pains, but they hired him nonetheless. Has much changed from that? Can we really conclude that Mazzulla is terrible and not going to get better and that any replacement hire will be? I think the Celtics need to be careful that they don't turn this into a James Dolan/Henry VIII situation where every guy that isn't yours is the shiny object and everything is dysfunctional.
I think there's close to a 100% chance that Mazzulla will get better over time. The problem is - do we really want him learning on the job while Tatum's and Brown's (assuming he isn't traded) peaks are wasted?

If the Cs were in the midst of a rebuilding or even sort of a bottom-tier playoff team I'd be on board for keeping Joe around, but what the Celtics really need right now is either (1) someone like Ime who can be the "stern father" (as SemperFi put it above) or (2) has considerable playoff experience and knows the right levers to pull when the team starts to lose focus, or turtle under pressure, or start infighting, etc. Mazzula doesn't check any of those boxes yet, so even if you think in 3-4 years or whatever he'll be a great coach, this current iteration of the Celtics really can't afford to wait until then.
 

bosockboy

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Well, we do know that Al Horford's sister retracted a tweet that was initially critical of Ime's suspension after she received more details of the incident. So the players know some of what happened and they are not all blindly following Woj's bleatings.

There may still be some raw feelings about it, but if they haven't come to terms with it then it's on them. Honestly, if the players reaction after checking out the first quarter of Game 3 is to scream at "upper management", then this team has huge problems that may require a major house cleaning to correct.
And would all but eliminate the option of Brad returning to the bench.
 

DourDoerr

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I think there's close to a 100% chance that Mazzulla will get better over time. The problem is - do we really want him learning on the job while Tatum's and Brown's (assuming he isn't traded) peaks are wasted?

If the Cs were in the midst of a rebuilding or even sort of a bottom-tier playoff team I'd be on board for keeping Joe around, but what the Celtics really need right now is either (1) someone like Ime who can be the "stern father" (as SemperFi put it above) or (2) has considerable playoff experience and knows the right levers to pull when the team starts to lose focus, or turtle under pressure, or start infighting, etc. Mazzula doesn't check any of those boxes yet, so even if you think in 3-4 years or whatever he'll be a great coach, this current iteration of the Celtics really can't afford to wait until then.
It's the ticking clock on the core's prime that's the biggest factor here. CJM's circumstance is the coaching equivalent of the Warriors' move to dump Wiseman - they couldn't afford the development time while the sand runs out on their core (although as I understand it, there were cap implications playing a factor too). Of course, JB and JT have several more years of their prime - although injuries can always play a part in shortening that peak - but a key player like Horford is nearing the end of this kind of workload. Signing JB to a supermax will also bring along cap limitations which will put further stresses on that prime. There are tricky days ahead. Give me a PG who'll push the ball, along with a tough vet who can contribute minutes reliably and a coach that can scheme or motivate at a high level and I think we're on our way. Interestingly, if you brought in Smart to this team and he agreed to play with pace, he'd be a great fit. I think there's too much water under the bridge now though and they need a new voice in his role.
 

RorschachsMask

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https://985thesportshub.com/listicle/cedric-maxwell-hears-rumors-regarding-game-3-postgame-tension/

Rich: What were these exchanges you said that you heard after the game?

Cedric Maxwell: I just heard that there was just a run-in between people and upper management and with the players. I don’t know any more than that. That’s a rumor that came through, but it didn’t matter about that. But with Wyc and what happened with them, it was more about what the players did on the floor and how they responded.

Rich: Wow, so upper management and the players. You said that there were run-ins between those two that were fairly tough conversations.

Cedric Maxwell: I don’t know. I just heard, just heard. So don’t quote me as ‘That’s what Max said’. No, I didn’t say that. I just heard that people said it was a run-in, that’s all I get out of there. All I say is the focus and the about execution or lack of execution in that game, that was the biggest thing that I took out of that. You know, I did TV that night afterward and it was just hard to do. It was hard for me to look at that camera. At the end of the day, I had a chance just today to see the players and, you know, and just talk to them briefly and talk about the game and, you know, just getting a feel and saying, do you guys could still win this thing. I think that’s what was the biggest point. It was, you know, I’m like, ‘okay, yeah, you lost. you had your ass kicked, but now you have to get up and play. At the end of the day, this is more about courage than anything else. Because the easiest thing this team could do right now is to lay down a rollover and play dead.
 

lexrageorge

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Seems pretty vague and non-specific. Without receipts (and Max is clearly not bringing any even if he has them), seems like just noise after an obviously frustrating loss.
 

TripleOT

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Didn‘t an Udoka coached team drop three straight games in the Finals? This series isn’t the first time this core dropped three playoff games in a row. To me, losing three straight when up in the Finals 2-1 with the lead at home in the third quarter of Game 4 is at least as horrible as fumbling two home ECF games in Boston and getting blown out in Game 3 in Miami.

Does anyone remember cries on the board to fire Udoka after the Finals meltdown? Ime, unlike Mazzulla, had a full complement of able assistants to rely upon, and had no answers when his team needed to right their ship.
 

bosockboy

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Didn‘t an Udoka coached team drop three straight games in the Finals? This series isn’t the first time this core dropped three playoff games in a row. To me, losing three straight when up in the Finals 2-1 with the lead at home in the third quarter of Game 4 is at least as horrible as fumbling two home ECF games in Boston and getting blown out in Game 3 in Miami.

Does anyone remember cries on the board to fire Udoka after the Finals meltdown? Ime, unlike Mazzulla, had a full complement of able assistants to rely upon, and had no answers when his team needed to right their ship.
They had a 3-1 lead on their racket, Curry punched hard and we had no answer from there on.
 

Cellar-Door

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Didn‘t an Udoka coached team drop three straight games in the Finals? This series isn’t the first time this core dropped three playoff games in a row. To me, losing three straight when up in the Finals 2-1 with the lead at home in the third quarter of Game 4 is at least as horrible as fumbling two home ECF games in Boston and getting blown out in Game 3 in Miami.

Does anyone remember cries on the board to fire Udoka after the Finals meltdown? Ime, unlike Mazzulla, had a full complement of able assistants to rely upon, and had no answers when his team needed to right their ship.
attitude and expectations. I think Ime made fewer obvious mistakes (like timeouts) but a lot of it was that team felt like it had exceeded expectations, nobody really thought they were making the finals, especially with how they started the year (where people were calling for Ime to be 1 and done). This team had champion expectations and started strong. I also think part of it is a sense that the window is closing, and guys on the team looking for someone to blame for missed expectations. Joe has probably been worse than Ime, but the reasons he's on the hot seat have little to do with the gap in their individual x and o performance.
 

Auger34

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Ime exceeded expectations, it seemed like he broke through with the team mentally and he established an identity. He made mistakes, as all rookie coaches do, but the expectation was the he would grow as a coach with the team and get better. There also seemed to be universal buy-in from the players on Ime as a coach and a leader.

Joe doesn’t seem to have established that same trust or buy in. Most of the time, when a team rolls over in a high stakes playoff game, the coach pays the ultimate price.

The good news is that the series isn’t over. If the players believe in Joe half as much as some posters do then they will come out and fight like hell and get this series to 5. If they come out and vomit on themselves again then the noise around Joe will get louder and he probably won’t survive
 

Myt1

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Good lord dude, really? Up on that cross, I made an incredibly innocuous post, my god. I am not sure what you’re so upset about or how you think I am being a jerk to you in the slightest.
You win, I don’t want to litigate this or anything else. I never meant to offend you or whatever it is that you’ve taken from my postz.
Dude, I have literally no idea what you’re talking about. I wrote something. You disagreed. I responded. Then you acted all affronted that I was portraying your post as a “hot take” (when I literally wrote that you might be right to blame the coach for a lack of identity).

Either lighten the fuck up or come with something more substantial than an ass-backwards understanding of what words mean, strawmen, and whining for a foul.
 

reggiecleveland

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d job.
Brogdon basically said this team has no identity other than making shots. I’m not a coach but, IMO, that has to be one of the most insulting things to say about a coach (@reggiecleveland can back me up or tell me I am an idiot on this). I mean, all coaches want to imprint some sort of identity and Brogdon is saying that Joe’s identity is….something that literally has nothing to do with the coach?
I appreciate you thinking I have something to add. Short answer It reflects badly on the coach. Brogdan seems to be saying he joined a team with culture of D and finished the season with a team without that culture.

As a coach you are almost always making decisions based on one end or the other. Rarely are your best five at one end the best five at the other, or the best mindset at one end the best mindset at the other. Ironically your identity may be what you practice the least, since your talent or culture fuel that strength. Identity questions arise when that balance gets skewed. Every coach that has won anything has a story about how a team succeeded in a way opposite to their initial identity. choosing or allowing a shift is one of those "fired or promoted" type decisions. Brogdan is certainly calling out the leaders whether that is the coach, the stars, or even himself it is hard to guess, but he is making clear the end they used to win games at the D end and they now were losing at that end.
 

NomarsFool

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We can all complain as much as we like about how the media shouldn't matter, but the reality is, that the head coach of any professional sports team is also the face of the team to the media (and by proxy) its fans. Udoka was at least average in his relationship with the media (maybe even above). CJM is terrible at it. Maybe he would grow into it, eventually, but he's awful at it and based on his overall persona, seems like someone who is risen to the level of his incompetence and should spend the rest of his coaching career as an assistant where he doesn't need to talk in front of a camera (or tape recorder).
 

kazuneko

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We can all complain as much as we like about how the media shouldn't matter, but the reality is, that the head coach of any professional sports team is also the face of the team to the media (and by proxy) its fans. Udoka was at least average in his relationship with the media (maybe even above). CJM is terrible at it. Maybe he would grow into it, eventually, but he's awful at it and based on his overall persona, seems like someone who is risen to the level of his incompetence and should spend the rest of his coaching career as an assistant where he doesn't need to talk in front of a camera (or tape recorder).
If for some reason they actually keep him, this challenge will only get more daunting. Most of the fans and all of the media will be calling for his head. If Brad decides to ignore that, it will be Mazz who will have to regularly face a media that are openly declaring him incompetent. Not sure Joe is up to that challenge..
 

Cellar-Door

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I appreciate you thinking I have something to add. Short answer It reflects badly on the coach. Brogdan seems to be saying he joined a team with culture of D and finished the season with a team without that culture.

As a coach you are almost always making decisions based on one end or the other. Rarely are your best five at one end the best five at the other, or the best mindset at one end the best mindset at the other. Ironically your identity may be what you practice the least, since your talent or culture fuel that strength. Identity questions arise when that balance gets skewed. Every coach that has won anything has a story about how a team succeeded in a way opposite to their initial identity. choosing or allowing a shift is one of those "fired or promoted" type decisions. Brogdan is certainly calling out the leaders whether that is the coach, the stars, or even himself it is hard to guess, but he is making clear the end they used to win games at the D end and they now were losing at that end.
I do find it amusing that Brogdon, one of the guys who most destroys the culture of defense when he's on the floor making half-assed closeouts and not even getting his hands up is the making that complaint. Brogdon is everything people hate about this team, a low effort defender, selfish with the ball and his only value comes if he shoots 40+ from 3.
 

AlNipper49

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I'm a bit confused by this. I kind of felt the consensus was that the reason why he was being outcoached was his experience. Now that he's getting experience it would seem a less-than-ideal time to jettison him. But now that a few talking heads have come out with "rumors" that the players are not happy the pitchforks are out. For an organization that kept the Ime stuff under wraps, it doesn't feel to me like this is a team-coordinated thing.

I guess something doesn't smell right to me. I'm not a huge NBA guy so it's also likely that my ignorance is showing.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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Concepts like "identity" are way too vague to actually analyze this kind of issue. It's a word that's doing a lot of heavy lifting, and probably means something different to everyone who uses it. Even in the same locker room.

Joe should go if it's in the best long term interest of the club and that includes the options for replacing him. It's all so abstract. Joe must go to hire Mike D'Antoni sounds a lot different from Joe must go to hire Nick Nurse, or Jay Larranaga.

It's impossible to analyze that kind of question when you're down 3-0 in a series. Because we're pissed and want blood. Maybe his is the right blood to spill. I don't know. Many of you know basketball much more than I do, and seem to think it's obvious, so I'm not going to be disappointed if it happens and I'll find a way to believe that whomever is named successor is a good fit. I just don't really think that concepts like "identity" help. They don't help me.
 

OurF'ingCity

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I'm a bit confused by this. I kind of felt the consensus was that the reason why he was being outcoached was his experience. Now that he's getting experience it would seem a less-than-ideal time to jettison him. But now that a few talking heads have come out with "rumors" that the players are not happy the pitchforks are out. For an organization that kept the Ime stuff under wraps, it doesn't feel to me like this is a team-coordinated thing.

I guess something doesn't smell right to me. I'm not a huge NBA guy so it's also likely that my ignorance is showing.
Getting experience at what rate though? It's not like he's going to morph into a great coach after having gone through one playoffs run - this stuff takes time, particularly for someone like Mazz who doesn't even really have that much time as an assistant either. Even if you could guarantee he'll be a very good coach in 3-4 years' time, that might be too late for this core.
 

benhogan

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Either lighten the fuck up or come with something more substantial than an ass-backwards understanding of what words mean, strawmen, and whining for a foul.
Yikes, it's going to get real salty around here if Miami finishes us off tonight.

I think we're all scratching our heads wondering how a heavy favorite just got walloped over 3 games.

Let's aim for a kinder, gentler Cellar since most of us are suffering from Butler-lash.
 

Cellar-Door

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I'm a bit confused by this. I kind of felt the consensus was that the reason why he was being outcoached was his experience. Now that he's getting experience it would seem a less-than-ideal time to jettison him. But now that a few talking heads have come out with "rumors" that the players are not happy the pitchforks are out. For an organization that kept the Ime stuff under wraps, it doesn't feel to me like this is a team-coordinated thing.

I guess something doesn't smell right to me. I'm not a huge NBA guy so it's also likely that my ignorance is showing.
I'd say it's a lot of things, he's going to likely get fired because he may have lost the lockerroom.
But also, getting 1 year of experience isn't probably enough. His opponent Spo.. he was still getting outcoached year 4, of course it was only year 2 of having a contender. The thought is, you can get a guy who has a LOT of experience, and there are an unusual number of guys with high level success available right now.

To put it in NFL terms, imagine you had a title window because you had an elite QB with acouple years on his deal, but your coach was an OC you hired for his first job and he had a 1st year playoff disaster. Now you go to the offseason and you look out and Kyle Shannahan, Sean McVay and Sean Payton are all available for you.... what move do you make.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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I think we're all scratching our heads wondering how a heavy favorite just got walloped over 3 games.
It's too bad there's such a long delay to the finals because I kind of think that how we view this might be affected by what happens in the finals. If the Heat blitz the Nuggets, shoot 47 percent threes, contain Jokic, and make smart plays late in close games, I think maybe we view it differently than if the Nuggets expose the Heat. Because the answer to the question why the heavily favored Celtics lost may have as much to do with Miami as it does with the Celtics. Obviously, the Celtics did not deserve to be favorites, but I think the jury is still out on whether that's mostly about the Celtics or whether it has a lot to do with the Heat.

Just like in hockey it may well be that the Bruins were the only team that came close to testing the eventual champions. Maybe nobody thinks about it that way, but in terms of deciding what the team should or shouldn't do in the offseason, that seems like a good bit of information to have.
 

AlNipper49

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Getting experience at what rate though? It's not like he's going to morph into a great coach after having gone through one playoffs run - this stuff takes time, particularly for someone like Mazz who doesn't even really have that much time as an assistant either. Even if you could guarantee he'll be a very good coach in 3-4 years' time, that might be too late for this core.
I don't disagree with this, I'd need to defer on the rate of improvement to those who watched and understand more than I. We've seen a slew of experienced coaches let go. I guess this would depend on what else is out there and what his perceived rate of improvement is. It just seems funny to me because only when they are down 0-3 do we hear this lost locker room talk.

I have no problem with them firing him if this is really the case. I didn't see a ton of issues with him this year from a casual fan standpoint. I think he did pretty well considering being thrown into the fire as he was.
 

benhogan

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I'm a bit confused by this. I kind of felt the consensus was that the reason why he was being outcoached was his experience. Now that he's getting experience it would seem a less-than-ideal time to jettison him. But now that a few talking heads have come out with "rumors" that the players are not happy the pitchforks are out. For an organization that kept the Ime stuff under wraps, it doesn't feel to me like this is a team-coordinated thing.

I guess something doesn't smell right to me. I'm not a huge NBA guy so it's also likely that my ignorance is showing.
They just extended Joe ~100 days ago. I wouldn't be surprised if the Rookie HC gets plenty of blame (he's been bad IMO) but I'd be surprised if they fired him
Over the last year, the Celtics have lost the Head Coach (IME), the lead Asst (Will) for last year's team, and the lead Asst (Damon) this year with ZERO replacements.

I imagine some of this present staff (which was IME's staff) will head to the Rockets & elsewhere this summer.

Brad (& Joe) need to hire some experienced NBA coaches.
 

teddykgb

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Yikes, it's going to get real salty around here if Miami finishes us off tonight.

I think we're all scratching our heads wondering how a heavy favorite just got walloped over 3 games.

Let's aim for a kinder, gentler Cellar since most of us are suffering from Butler-lash.
Haha someone isn’t familiar with Myts work. Sometimes I laugh to myself thinking that he’s married to someone who has to argue with him about regular life stuff like chores and where to go on vacation.

If they lose tonight then it should be a blood bath on here. It would be a major underperformance and necessitate a lot of the questions we have been discussing all week. Getting over the hurdle from contender to champion is hard and this was a golden chance. They’ll have earned the scorn
 

Cellar-Door

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They just extended Joe ~100 days ago. I wouldn't be surprised if the Rookie HC gets plenty of blame (he's been bad IMO) but I'd be surprised if they fired him
Over the last year, the Celtics have lost the Head Coach (IME), the lead Asst (Will) for last year's team, and the lead Asst (Damon) this year with ZERO replacements.

I imagine some of this present staff (which was IME's staff) will head to the Rockets & elsewhere this summer.

Brad (& Joe) need to hire some experienced NBA coaches.
I kind of feel similar to how Marks felt on the Lowe Post yesterday.... I was thinking he'd 100% be back, but then game 3 happened, and the coaching pool available is surprisingly deep right now, so he might not make it. Also probably depends how this actually ends. They come out and win games 4 and 5.... lose a close game 6... maybe he gets another go, they come out and get waxed in game 4 and look like they've quit again.... gone.
 

Senator Donut

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They just extended Joe ~100 days ago. I wouldn't be surprised if the Rookie HC gets plenty of blame (he's been bad IMO) but I'd be surprised if they fired him
Over the last year, the Celtics have lost the Head Coach (IME), the lead Asst (Will) for last year's team, and the lead Asst (Damon) this year with ZERO replacements.

I imagine some of this present staff (which was IME's staff) will head to the Rockets & elsewhere this summer.

Brad (& Joe) need to hire some experienced NBA coaches.
What kind of assistants can a dead coach walking like CJM bring in? Frank Vogel certainly isn't walking into disaster. They aren't going to be able to recruit the top coaching talent they need if CJM remains in charge.
 

BaseballJones

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It's the ticking clock on the core's prime that's the biggest factor here.
Season ages of the "core":

INNER CORE
Tatum: 24
Brown: 26
- - -
OUTER CORE
Smart: 28
White: 28
RWilliams: 25
Brogdon: 30
Horford: 36
- - -
PERIPHERY
GWilliams: 24 (and soon to be gone, almost certainly)
Pritchard: 25 (and soon to be gone, almost certainly)
Hauser: 25

So the inner core - consisting of just two people - doesn't have anywhere near a "ticking clock" as I perceive you mean it. They're both PLENTY young enough to play for a long time still, at peak or near peak performance. They are both just hitting the start of their primes. They each should have another 5-6 years (longer for Tatum) where they will be elite players before performance starts dropping off. A ton of the elite players in the NBA at present are in their early 30s.

Obviously Horford's clock is ticking in a major way. That's an issue. Due to injuries, Rob Williams' clock has been ticking since he entered the league. Smart and White both have a few good years left in them. Brogdon fewer, but still should be helpful for a couple more. So the outer core definitely is a concern in terms of longevity, but the two studs that this team is built around....I'm not worried about their clock at all. I *am* worried that maybe Brown wants to go, which would be a real issue of course.
 

Cellar-Door

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Aug 1, 2006
35,735
What kind of assistants can a dead coach walking like CJM bring in? Frank Vogel certainly isn't walking into disaster. They aren't going to be able to recruit the top coaching talent they need if CJM remains in charge.
Why? Being lead assistant to a coach on shaky ground usually means an interim spot and first in line to replace him.

Also if they don't fire him it's an indication to potential assistants that management has his back and won't cave to media pressure if Joe doesn't get fired this off-season he's far from a dead coach walking, he's either dead coach walking now and getting fired or he is about to get a long term vote of confidence and the non-Tatum players are on the hot seat next season(or sooner)
 

Cellar-Door

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Aug 1, 2006
35,735
Season ages of the "core":

INNER CORE
Tatum: 24
Brown: 26
- - -
OUTER CORE
Smart: 28
White: 28
RWilliams: 25
Brogdon: 30
Horford: 36
- - -
PERIPHERY
GWilliams: 24 (and soon to be gone, almost certainly)
Pritchard: 25 (and soon to be gone, almost certainly)
Hauser: 25

So the inner core - consisting of just two people - doesn't have anywhere near a "ticking clock" as I perceive you mean it. They're both PLENTY young enough to play for a long time still, at peak or near peak performance. They are both just hitting the start of their primes. They each should have another 5-6 years (longer for Tatum) where they will be elite players before performance starts dropping off. A ton of the elite players in the NBA at present are in their early 30s.

Obviously Horford's clock is ticking in a major way. That's an issue. Due to injuries, Rob Williams' clock has been ticking since he entered the league. Smart and White both have a few good years left in them. Brogdon fewer, but still should be helpful for a couple more. So the outer core definitely is a concern in terms of longevity, but the two studs that this team is built around....I'm not worried about their clock at all. I *am* worried that maybe Brown wants to go, which would be a real issue of course.
The primes thing is true, the clock is definitely ticking on the core though simply because of cost and the disincentives in the new CBA.
 

benhogan

Granite Truther
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Nov 2, 2007
21,160
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What kind of assistants can a dead coach walking like CJM bring in? Frank Vogel certainly isn't walking into disaster. They aren't going to be able to recruit the top coaching talent they need if CJM remains in charge.
Probably the most talented roster in the NBA with 2 young superstars. Any Coach that wants to win Championships by imparting their wisdom will want in.

The upside is tremendous and probably the #1 Asst Coaching job opening in the NBA.
Plus the GM is level-headed and an ex-Head Coach that can relate.
 

EvilEmpire

paying for his sins
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Apr 9, 2007
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What kind of assistants can a dead coach walking like CJM bring in?
Ambitious ones who are experienced but unlikely to beat out the top tier guys available for head coaching positions right now.

If he survives, CJM is going to be on thin ice.

Might be an opportunity for someone with solid credentials.
 

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
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Oct 1, 2015
25,478
The primes thing is true, the clock is definitely ticking on the core though simply because of cost and the disincentives in the new CBA.
I'm not sure what you mean. They can lock both Tatum and Brown up basically forever, assuming those guys want to stay here. Unless there's something in the CBA that you're referring to that I don't understand.
 

Patriot_Reign

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Apr 21, 2011
1,194
I didn't hear it, but did Gorman go on T&R and say he'd love to have Rivers back as HC?
That's kind of damning to have your team's play by play guy advocating for another person when the current HC spot is occupied by someone else.
 

Cellar-Door

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35,735
I'm not sure what you mean. They can lock both Tatum and Brown up basically forever, assuming those guys want to stay here. Unless there's something in the CBA that you're referring to that I don't understand.
New CBA has some very restrictive roster building punishments coming down the line, Marks touches on it some in the last Zach Lowe pod, but basically the Celtics have this off season and maybe 1 more before they would be pretty much locked in with few ways to add or re-arrange talent
 

JCizzle

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I didn't hear it, but did Gorman go on T&R and say he'd love to have Rivers back as HC?
That's kind of damning to have your team's play by play guy advocating for another person when the current HC spot is occupied by someone else.
He did say that, but only in the context of who he'd want if they fire CJM.
 

Cellar-Door

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I didn't hear it, but did Gorman go on T&R and say he'd love to have Rivers back as HC?
That's kind of damning to have your team's play by play guy advocating for another person when the current HC spot is occupied by someone else.
Mike Gorman loves Doc about as much as his kids
 

kazuneko

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Nov 10, 2006
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Ambitious ones who are experienced but unlikely to beat out the top tier guys available for head coaching positions right now.

If he survives, CJM is going to be on thin ice.

Might be an opportunity for someone with solid credentials.
Exactly. If for some reason Mazzulla returns he will need to be supported by capable assistants. The most senior of those assistants would stand to take over midseason if/when Mazzulla falters. It’s the only way someone like Nate McMillan (as a random example of an experienced NBA coach) has a shot of taking over a championship contender.
 

mcpickl

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Jul 23, 2007
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They just extended Joe ~100 days ago. I wouldn't be surprised if the Rookie HC gets plenty of blame (he's been bad IMO) but I'd be surprised if they fired him
Over the last year, the Celtics have lost the Head Coach (IME), the lead Asst (Will) for last year's team, and the lead Asst (Damon) this year with ZERO replacements.

I imagine some of this present staff (which was IME's staff) will head to the Rockets & elsewhere this summer.

Brad (& Joe) need to hire some experienced NBA coaches.
This is where I'm at as well. Unless Wyc(or Tatum I suppose) just steps in and says he wants Mazzulla out, I'd guess he's back.

Losing all those coaches, and no real chance to replace them, put the Celtics and Mazzulla in such a brutal spot this season.

I'd guess Brad already has already talked to Jay Larranaga and Jamie Young to see if they'd return if Mazzulla was interested in them joining his staff.


I didn't hear it, but did Gorman go on T&R and say he'd love to have Rivers back as HC?
That's kind of damning to have your team's play by play guy advocating for another person when the current HC spot is occupied by someone else.
I love Mike Gorman, but why would this matter at all?

He might just want someone to golf with.
 

OurF'ingCity

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Apr 22, 2016
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I see lots of people saying the approach toward Joe (and the team more generally) is dependent on tonight’s game, or the series more generally, which is insane to me.

Mazz is either an over-his-head coach who struggles with X’s and O’s and who the team doesn’t respect, or he’s not. If he is, the team winning a few more games isn’t going to change that.

Maybe how the team performs over the next few games will tell us, the fans, more about Joe, but the front office should have all the information they need by now to know if Mazzula is the guy going forward or not.
 

Cellar-Door

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I see lots of people saying the approach toward Joe (and the team more generally) is dependent on tonight’s game, or the series more generally, which is insane to me.

Mazz is either an over-his-head coach who struggles with X’s and O’s and who the team doesn’t respect, or he’s not. If he is, the team winning a few more games isn’t going to change that.

Maybe how the team performs over the next few games will tell us, the fans, more about Joe, but the front office should have all the information they need by now to know if Mazzula is the guy going forward or not.
In a perfect world sure, but front offices answer to owners, and narratives are very important to owners. You also are running an entertainment product that relies in part on fan enthusiasm. Sadly the narrative of this exit will matter, because owner and fan goodwill is a currency in this business, and if you can get more of it by firing the coach... well which is more important to you, keeping Joe over say Nick Nurse or Atkinson, or being able to make a move that Wyc has to pay for, or trade away a popular player to improve?
 

sezwho

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Jul 20, 2005
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Isle of Plum
I see lots of people saying the approach toward Joe (and the team more generally) is dependent on tonight’s game, or the series more generally, which is insane to me.

Mazz is either an over-his-head coach who struggles with X’s and O’s and who the team doesn’t respect, or he’s not. If he is, the team winning a few more games isn’t going to change that.

Maybe how the team performs over the next few games will tell us, the fans, more about Joe, but the front office should have all the information they need by now to know if Mazzula is the guy going forward or not.
If there is a lack of experienced coaching, as appears so evident, where is P/CBS? Is he concerned about undercutting his protege? Maybe he’s sharing during film sessions or behind the scenes but CJM falls apart in game when real time adjustments are needed? So many years of experience…
 

Auger34

used to be tbb
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Apr 23, 2010
11,345
I see lots of people saying the approach toward Joe (and the team more generally) is dependent on tonight’s game, or the series more generally, which is insane to me.

Mazz is either an over-his-head coach who struggles with X’s and O’s and who the team doesn’t respect, or he’s not. If he is, the team winning a few more games isn’t going to change that.

Maybe how the team performs over the next few games will tell us, the fans, more about Joe, but the front office should have all the information they need by now to know if Mazzula is the guy going forward or not.
If they come out and get boat raced again then I think he has to go no matter what. If they come out and fight but lose a close game then I think you run it back with him