Kyrie Irving traded to Celtics for IT, Crowder, Zizic, BKN 1st, 2020 2nd

[John Marzano Olympic Hero]

No, I didn't look up Iowa because for some reason I have vivid memories of Lohaus making those top of the key bounce passes required in Dr. Tom Davis and his system.

I really liked that team: Lohaus, Armstrong ,Marble, and others. Forgot that was the first year of Davis.

Last week I just finished reading "Season on the Brink" (first time -- Bobby Knight sure was a prick) and there's a lot of talk about Iowa in that book. And one of the players that Knight specifically keys on is Brad Lohaus, which made me laugh. All I know of Lohaus is his incredibly underwhelming Celtics career.

 

[Eddie Jurak]

I said throw in an unprotected 2nd when this first came up and I stand by my position.

Would anyone give up Big Y instead?

No. Though I will say it is interesting to me that Big Z was part of the deal and not Big Y.

 

[lovegtm]

No. Though I will say it is interesting to me that Big Z was part of the deal and not Big Y.

I can't imagine that the Celtics got higher on him during Summer League.

 

[Eddie Jurak]

Great article by Zach Lowe on the Celtics rationale for the deal as well as Irving's potential fit in Boston:

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/20501557/zach-lowe-celtics-cavaliers-kyrie-irving-isaiah-thomas-trade-nba

 

[GreenMonster49]

Gilbert being Gilbert, cash might be involved.

The Celtics do have residual interests in second round picks the next two years: each conveys if it is pick 31-55, but not otherwise. So they can trade the residual value of picks 56-60 each year. Which looks a lot more likely to actually be where they pick than it did when the underlying deals were made!
.

I think that you have it backwards. Both of the 2018 and 2019 picks are protected for picks 31-55, so they convey only if they are in the 56-60 range. RealGM uses this sort of terminology: "protected for selections 31-55 (if this pick falls within its protected range and is therefore not conveyed, then Boston's obligation to Oklahoma City will be extinguished)"https://basketball.realgm.com/nba/draft/future_drafts/detailed

 

[the moops]

It is an interesting take from Lowe.

The BRK pick may have been too much in addition to IT/Crowder/Zizic, but every other possibility (minus the LAL/SAC pick) was too little.

 

[PedroKsBambino]

I think that you have it backwards. Both of the 2018 and 2019 picks are protected for picks 31-55, so they convey only if they are in the 56-60 range. RealGM uses this sort of terminology: "protected for selections 31-55 (if this pick falls within its protected range and is therefore not conveyed, then Boston's obligation to Oklahoma City will be extinguished)"https://basketball.realgm.com/nba/draft/future_drafts/detailed

Thanks-you're correct.

 

[Stitch01]

It is an interesting take from Lowe.

The BRK pick may have been too much in addition to IT/Crowder/Zizic, but every other possibility (minus the LAL/SAC pick) was too little.

Makes sense to me, I think modest protection on the Nets pick would have been just about 100 cents on the dollar.

 

[allstonite]

Makes sense to me, I think modest protection on the Nets pick would have been just about 100 cents on the dollar.

But everything moops said is why the protection would have been difficult. It (along with the LAL/Sac pick) are our last likely high draft picks for a while. If the Nets pick was protected and didn't convey to Cleveland in 2018, we don't have picks with nearly the value to make up for what Cleveland lost.

If the trade became IT/Crowder/Zizic/#15-20 in 2019 from Memphis or an even later Celtics 2019 pick, that's not nearly enough value for Kyrie.

 

[PedroKsBambino]

But everything moops said is why the protection would have been difficult. It (along with the LAL/Sac pick) are our last likely high draft picks for a while. If the Nets pick was protected and didn't convey to Cleveland in 2018, we don't have picks with nearly the value to make up for what Cleveland lost.

If the trade became IT/Crowder/Zizic/#15-20 in 2019 from Memphis or an even later Celtics 2019 pick, that's not nearly enough value for Kyrie.

I think this is where Danny just had to decide how unique a profile/asset Irving is.

As Lowe suggests, it's an 'overpay' in the abstract to give the Nets pick unprotected, but once you do not do so your chances of losing Irving go up a lot---because you're right it is hard to construct a deal that manages the Cavs risk otherwise. Given the overall asset stash, is this the guy you reach a little for or not? He did, and while I do think it's interesting to explore Irving vs Butler vs George ultimately he landed on Irving as the guy to stretch for---no doubt in part (as Lowe illustrates) because of timing of Hayward's signing.

I guess the fallback you might have tried (and Ainge may well have done so) is something like "Nets pick protected for 1 only, then Lakers/Kings conveying all of Celtics interest in those picks, and if those assets don't yield a top 8 pick add in LAC or Memphis pick as well" In addition to a lot of complexity, that ties up the Celts pick assets for more than a year and that will bite hard should some other superstar become available.

 

[DJnVa]

Makes sense to me, I think modest protection on the Nets pick would have been just about 100 cents on the dollar.

If it was protected and didn't convey, how is Cleveland made whole?

 

[Auger34]

Great article by Zach Lowe on the Celtics rationale for the deal as well as Irving's potential fit in Boston:

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/20501557/zach-lowe-celtics-cavaliers-kyrie-irving-isaiah-thomas-trade-nba

It's always a good feeling when the best NBA writer out has the same thoughts on a trade as you....
After reading that article it lends further credence to my idea that the lack of top 2 protection on the Brooklyn pick was in the trade because both teams agreed IT would miss at least some of the season. It appears that the Cavs and Celtics medical teams have different opinions on just how long that portion of the season missed will be but there was a definite understanding that some time would be missed.
Also found the Anthony Davis portion very interesting. Obviously Philadelphia has the most to potentially offer but who would they be willing to part with realistically? Saric and picks definitely but would they put in Simmons or Fultz? Even then, I am not sure that could match up to Jaylen/Tatum/ and the cadre of picks the Celtics could offer.

It's really amazing how many assets the Celtics have that they could make a trade that most agree is an overpay and still have arguably the most assets to trade for another superstar

 

[the moops]

If it was protected and didn't convey, how is Cleveland made whole?

I think there would be contingencies, no?
Like BRK pick top 2 protected. If it falls in there, the LAL/SAC pick conveys.

 

[Stitch01]

I wanted to make it the lower of Nets/Lakers if Lakers conveyed. Then the Cavs were guaranteed a 2-5 pick if the protection became relevant. If the LAL pick didnt convey, oh well, the Celtics had to eat that risk. But that would have at least taken out some of the risk of losing a 1/2 pick, which is what would make this trade a potential significant overpay.

 

[Eddie Jurak]

Makes sense to me, I think modest protection on the Nets pick would have been just about 100 cents on the dollar.

But everything moops said is why the protection would have been difficult. It (along with the LAL/Sac pick) are our last likely high draft picks for a while. If the Nets pick was protected and didn't convey to Cleveland in 2018, we don't have picks with nearly the value to make up for what Cleveland lost.

If the trade became IT/Crowder/Zizic/#15-20 in 2019 from Memphis or an even later Celtics 2019 pick, that's not nearly enough value for Kyrie.

The Celtics could maybe have agreed to top 1 protection (with Cleveland getting the LAL/SAC pick instead). That might have been too steep a potential drop in value for the Cavs though.

 

[DavidTai]

The Celtics could maybe have agreed to top 1 protection (with Cleveland getting the LAL/SAC pick instead). That might have been too steep a potential drop in value for the Cavs though.

I dunno - I think the Cavs -could- have lived with 'the better of the choice between Nets / LAL', as it would be pretty much what they wanted, but I also think that would have tied up -both- picks in a way that meant Danny couldn't use the LAL pick for any trade that might pop up. It could be that Danny wants the second pick free of any obligation that prevents him from using it in trades, and that was worth putting no protections on the Nets pick.

 

[Stitch01]

Wouldnt that have been a better deal for the Cavs then what they actually got?

 

[lovegtm]

It's really amazing how many assets the Celtics have that they could make a trade that most agree is an overpay and still have arguably the most assets to trade for another superstar

Now let's go back to the Fultz trade thread and see how many people were saying Danny got played...

One underrated part of the Kyrie trade that just struck me, and makes me feel bad for IT, is that Danny effectively used Crowder and him to jack up the team's performance profile and make the Cs more attractive as a free agent destination. In effect, Danny got two bites at the apple--team plays well, get Hayward and Horford (and almost Durant) just for money. Then turn around and use the players who enabled that rise as sweeteners in the next trade.

It's not just that you're turning a 28 pick, Rajon Rondo, Pierce, and KG into Kyrie, Tatum, Brown, Yabusele, and the LA/Sac pick; he effectively turned those assets into Hayward and Horford as well, since there's 0 chance they sign with a sub-500 team.

It's really cold, but it's also extremely creative, and a very underrated part of the Celtics' insanely fast transition from lottery to Finals contender.

 

[thehitcat]

So have the teams taken care of their responsibilities from Woj's story that "The deadline to report and submit to a physical for the players involved in the trade is 10 a.m. ET Wednesday, and the deadline to pass the physical is 10 a.m. ET Thursday, per league rules."

 

[PedroKsBambino]

I dunno - I think the Cavs -could- have lived with 'the better of the choice between Nets / LAL', as it would be pretty much what they wanted, but I also think that would have tied up -both- picks in a way that meant Danny couldn't use the LAL pick for any trade that might pop up. It could be that Danny wants the second pick free of any obligation that prevents him from using it in trades, and that was worth putting no protections on the Nets pick.

The problem is that Celts don't want to trade 'better' and worse doesn't likely work for Cleveland. The LAL/Sac pick has a chance of not being all that high, since it could become an unprotected SAC pick in 2019 if it doesn't convey to LAL and while unlikely, SAC could be enough better that pick is late-lottery (or something like that). Not only does that delay the return for Cavs a year, it has a risk (albeit not a huge one) of losing material value in pick slot.

 

[DavidTai]

The problem is that Celts don't want to trade 'better' and worse doesn't likely work for Cleveland. The LAL/Sac pick has a chance of not being all that high, since it could become an unprotected SAC pick in 2019 if it doesn't convey to LAL and while unlikely, SAC could be enough better that pick is late-lottery (or something like that). Not only does that delay the return for Cavs a year, it has a risk (albeit not a huge one) of losing material value in pick slot.

I was thinking more that if Cleveland was more insistent on being 'made whole', they should forego the extra pick and just insist on the better pick. If it turns out to be the Nets, they have lost nothing. If it turns out that the Lakers pick was better, well... that would have matched their expectations out of this draft.

But it wouldn't have mattered anyway - I don't think Boston wanted to have both picks tied up pending the lottery draft and they obviously wouldn't have wanted to lose the 'better' pick in a gamble like that. Better to leave it to Cleveland to take all that risk themselves.

 

[mikeot]

Favorite takeaways from Lowe's excellent piece:

"If Anthony Davis becomes available -- and the Celtics' eyes are very much trained on him -- Boston could throw together a package more compelling than just about anyone else's. Irving would be an indirect part of that package. The NBA's superstar class respects his ballsy showman's game. (Ainge has long liked Irving more than most of his peers for some of the same reasons, sources say.) Beyond Davis, it's hard to pinpoint the next star players who might become available at Irving's age and merit a motherlode offer -- another reason to target Irving now.

Tilt his game a bit toward pull-up 3s and playmaking, and Irving could be special. Boston is right to bet on its ability to coax Irving there. He's still young; he will mature. Stevens is a genius. Horford is one of the game's best passing big men, and the Celtics empower him in ways the Cavs rarely afforded Love."

 

[DavidTai]

One underrated part of the Kyrie trade that just struck me, and makes me feel bad for IT, is that Danny effectively used Crowder and him to jack up the team's performance profile and make the Cs more attractive as a free agent destination. In effect, Danny got two bites at the apple--team plays well, get Hayward and Horford (and almost Durant) just for money. Then turn around and use the players who enabled that rise as sweeteners in the next trade.

Maybe so, but I think the players themselves benefited and played themselves into larger contracts due to the Celtics' coach as well, so it was, to me, a mutually beneficial association.

It's cold, yes, but I think the players themselves got a lot out of it as well. I mean, take a look at Evan Turner. Think he regrets playing with the Celtics?

 

[nighthob]

I dunno - I think the Cavs -could- have lived with 'the better of the choice between Nets / LAL', as it would be pretty much what they wanted, but I also think that would have tied up -both- picks in a way that meant Danny couldn't use the LAL pick for any trade that might pop up. It could be that Danny wants the second pick free of any obligation that prevents him from using it in trades, and that was worth putting no protections on the Nets pick.

It sounds good in theory, but unless there's a player on an old max deal that comes available this season Boston is done with lottery pick trades for the moment.

Their contracts are now all either max or rookie/MLE level ones. In January they could package Morris & Baynes for someone making $15 million, but the sort of players they would need to add for a legal trade for a star mean that the LA pick isn't going anywhere.

So all told the public story, that Cleveland wanted one of the Brooklyn pick, LAL pick, or Tatum, is likely a function of the fact that the Nets pick carries a lot more variance than the LAL one (because Brooklyn could win 25-35 games and wouldn't surprise me in the least).

 

[the moops]

I dunno - I think the Cavs -could- have lived with 'the better of the choice between Nets / LAL'

This doesn't make sense. Getting the better of the two is a far better deal than just the BRK pick

 

[DavidTai]

This doesn't make sense. Getting the better of the two is a far better deal than just the BRK pick

Yeah, correct. Brain sidetracked a bit with the protections onto the current IT4 compensation talks, was meaning more to address why you don't want to have the conditions on both picks.

 

[Eddie Jurak]

Wouldnt that have been a better deal for the Cavs then what they actually got?

Yep.

 

[DeJesus Built My Hotrod]

Meanwhile back to the actual trade, between Woj's latest and the Twitterverse it seems as if Cleveland is currently waiting to see if any whisper offers can top the trade as we know it. If so, they will reject the trade based on Thomas' physical. If not, they will accept the terms as is.

I know that Lowe piece has some of you gushing but his strength as an NBA analyst is in breaking down players and schemes. He does this well with Kyrie. That said, he isn't a true insider like Woj or Shams or Stein so his take on how Stevens can maximize Kyrie is more wishcasting than anything. I know the mantra is that he is "only 25" and "just entering his prime". However, as was previously pointed out, he is a six year NBA veteran starter and typically tendencies are pretty deeply ingrained in that timeframe. In other words, we aren't about to witness Kyrie's Taylor Swift coming of age period. I bet Stevens schemes well for him however I also bet we see Kyrie struggle with this new system mightily as well. At the very least, it will be fascinating to watch.

Sent from my SM-G950U using SoSH mobile app

 

[PedroKsBambino]

Meanwhile back to the actual trade, between Woj's latest and the Twitterverse it seems as if Cleveland is currently waiting to see if any whisper offers can top the trade as we know it. If so, they will reject the trade based on Thomas' physical. If not, they will accept the terms as is.

I know that Lowe piece has some of you gushing but his strength as an NBA analyst is in breaking down players and schemes. He does this well with Kyrie. That said, he isn't a true insider like Woj or Shams or Stein so his take on how Stevens can maximize Kyrie is more wishcasting than anything. I know the mantra is that he is "only 25" and "just entering his prime". However, as was previously pointed out, he is a six year NBA veteran starter and typically tendencies are pretty deeply ingrained in that timeframe. In other words, we aren't about to witness Kyrie's Taylor Swift coming of age period. I bet Stevens schemes well for him however I also bet we see Kyrie struggle with this new system mightily as well. At the very least, it will be fascinating to watch.

Sent from my SM-G950U using SoSH mobile app

Lowe has different, and in terms of analysis better, NBA sources than Woj or Shams. Those are rumor guys---he talks to scouts, analytics guys, and assistant coaches.

I share some of your concern about what Irving will actually become, by the way...but he's miles ahead of the guys you name on inside info on the topic of 'how will Irving be used' I agree at least Woj and Shams (don't agree as to Stein) have quicker transaction-related stuff and thus presumably mroe front office sources than Lowe does

 

[Reggie's Racquet]

Why don't we just pick apart Irving's medical report...we want compensation.

 

[DavidTai]

How does Woj/Shams/Stein's being 'true insiders' apply at all to examining how Stevens can maximize Kyrie?

Wouldn't someone whose strength -is- breaking down players and schemes be exactly the kind of guy who could offer a better take on how Stevens can maximize Kyrie?

 

[HomeRunBaker]

No. Though I will say it is interesting to me that Big Z was part of the deal and not Big Y.

Personally I like Zizic better as an NBA player down the road but from Clevelands perspective what is also important to recognize is that assuming LeBron leaves next summer the next two guys out of town will be Tristan and Love. Having a pure 5 on a rookie deal fills a huge hole in that frontcourt in putting a quality product on the floor.

 

[Jed Zeppelin]

I don't think Woj, et al have much to offer in terms of actual basketball analysis beyond breaking news. Certainly less trustworthy than Lowe in this realm.

Having just witnessed Thomas's coming of age period (and Crowder and Turner and Olynyk and Bradley and) under this same braintrust I'm willing to give it a shot.

 

[Auger34]

Meanwhile back to the actual trade, between Woj's latest and the Twitterverse it seems as if Cleveland is currently waiting to see if any whisper offers can top the trade as we know it. If so, they will reject the trade based on Thomas' physical. If not, they will accept the terms as is.

I know that Lowe piece has some of you gushing but his strength as an NBA analyst is in breaking down players and schemes. He does this well with Kyrie. That said, he isn't a true insider like Woj or Shams or Stein so his take on how Stevens can maximize Kyrie is more wishcasting than anything. I know the mantra is that he is "only 25" and "just entering his prime". However, as was previously pointed out, he is a six year NBA veteran starter and typically tendencies are pretty deeply ingrained in that timeframe. In other words, we aren't about to witness Kyrie's Taylor Swift coming of age period. I bet Stevens schemes well for him however I also bet we see Kyrie struggle with this new system mightily as well. At the very least, it will be fascinating to watch.

Sent from my SM-G950U using SoSH mobile app

You actually have this backwards. Lowe is light years ahead of Woj/Shams/Stein in terms of analyzing how a coach can maximize a players strengths or how a player would fit in a scheme.
Shams and Woj are pretty much strictly breaking news/industry rumors reporters. Neither of them offer much in the realm of player/system fit other than strictly surface analysis and honestly they don't really try to do anything more than that

 

[DJnVa]

I think there would be contingencies, no?
Like BRK pick top 2 protected. If it falls in there, the LAL/SAC pick conveys.

Which, of course, is also protected. Nothing is a guarantee, but the whole point is Cleveland can potentially get the #1 overall with that pick. That's the allure.

 

[HomeRunBaker]

I think there would be contingencies, no?
Like BRK pick top 2 protected. If it falls in there, the LAL/SAC pick conveys.

Would Cleveland move Kyrie to Boston without the upside of a top-2 pick in the draft? Including this protection greatly reduces the value of the Brooklyn pick and puts us right back in the mix with several other teams discussing Kyrie.

The point isn't to make an offer that doesn't far exceed what else is out there......the point is to offer a deal that Cleveland will accept. There are other factors in play than simply accepting the best return......we saw this with George in Indiana and others through the years.

Brooklyn figures to be much improved as they were decimated with injuries last year and added many real live NBA players this summer. I'm not worried about this pick being Top-2 if I had to made a guesstimate I'd say in the 5-8 range. We still gained far and away the best player in the trade in a top heavy league assuming that pick is in the 5-8 range......this wasn't even close to an overpay imo.

 

[allstonite]

Meanwhile back to the actual trade, between Woj's latest and the Twitterverse it seems as if Cleveland is currently waiting to see if any whisper offers can top the trade as we know it. If so, they will reject the trade based on Thomas' physical. If not, they will accept the terms as is.


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I have to think if it comes out that the Cavs are even negotiating with other teams they're in huge trouble, even if they wind up keeping the trade.

 

[DJnVa]

So have the teams taken care of their responsibilities from Woj's story that "The deadline to report and submit to a physical for the players involved in the trade is 10 a.m. ET Wednesday, and the deadline to pass the physical is 10 a.m. ET Thursday, per league rules."

Are you asking if everyone has had their physical? Because we've had reports that Crowder, Zizic, and Irving passed and they haven't made determination on IT yet. Which is why this thread is approaching 1500 posts.

 

[DeJesus Built My Hotrod]

To clarify Woj et al have more insight into what makes these guys tick and their personalities than someone like Lowe. I hamfistedly tried to say that Stevens certainly can maximize Kyrie's strengths, it remains to be seen if latter will take to it after all this time as essentially a freelancer.

And imho, the IT4 comparison does not hold. Thomas had never been a consistent starter when he arrived in Boston and he had been under utilized on his prior teams. Essentially, his game had not yet been fully formed.

Irving, on the other hand, is what he is. The Cs are only hoping that Stevens can maximize his strengths and hide his weaknesses rather than giving him an entirely new role like he did for Thomas.

 

[nighthob]

Meanwhile back to the actual trade, between Woj's latest and the Twitterverse it seems as if Cleveland is currently waiting to see if any whisper offers can top the trade as we know it. If so, they will reject the trade based on Thomas' physical. If not, they will accept the terms as is.

I agree with this, but I don't see Phoenix budging on Jackson or Booker, so I expect the deal to be done by this time tomorrow.

I know that Lowe piece has some of you gushing but his strength as an NBA analyst is in breaking down players and schemes. He does this well with Kyrie. That said, he isn't a true insider like Woj or Shams or Stein so his take on how Stevens can maximize Kyrie is more wishcasting than anything. I know the mantra is that he is "only 25" and "just entering his prime". However, as was previously pointed out, he is a six year NBA veteran starter and typically tendencies are pretty deeply ingrained in that timeframe. In other words, we aren't about to witness Kyrie's Taylor Swift coming of age period. I bet Stevens schemes well for him however I also bet we see Kyrie struggle with this new system mightily as well. At the very least, it will be fascinating to watch.

This part I don't agree with, because Lil' Zeke was a mirror image of Irving when he arrived in Boston (their games were extremely similar and the criticisms reflected that). And yet Thomas was able to flourish in the offense because it was tailor made for his strengths.

No, it does not matter that Thomas had been in the NBA a couple of less years at the time because he didn't magically morph into that player in Sacramento. His tendencies towards overdribbling and probing the defense for angles to the rim had been there for years.

Who knows, maybe Irving's just a total head case that isn't capable of getting better. But lots of players' games evolve and I bet his does too. He certainly has the tools to succeed here. He shoots well off the dribble, and replacing some of those mid range jumpers with treys will do wonders for his efficiency.

 

[Van Everyman]

Why don't we just pick apart Irving's medical report...we want compensation.

Would not bang

 

[Big John]

Brooklyn figures to be much improved as they were decimated with injuries last year and added many real live NBA players this summer. I'm not worried about this pick being Top-2 if I had to made a guesstimate I'd say in the 5-8 range. We still gained far and away the best player in the trade in a top heavy league assuming that pick is in the 5-8 range......this wasn't even close to an overpay imo.

I'd be shocked if the Nets win as many as 30 games. And in this draft you don't have to be top 1 or 2. Anywhere in the top 5 will do. Porter, Bagley, Ayton, Doncic, Bamba. Any one of those guys could be an all-star, and it's close too 100% that at least two of them will be.

 

[thehitcat]

Are you asking if everyone has had their physical? Because we've had reports that Crowder, Zizic, and Irving passed and they haven't made determination on IT yet. Which is why this thread is approaching 1500 posts.

I hadn't seen that Irving had taken and passed. Only that he was initially scheduled for this past Saturday. So while I understand about IT and some of the posts in this thread I had not seen where the other players had taken and passed.

 

[DavidTai]

To clarify Woj et al have more insight into what makes these guys tick and their personalities than someone like Lowe. I hamfistedly tried to say that Stevens certainly can maximize Kyrie's strengths, it remains to be seen if latter will take to it after all this time as essentially a freelancer.

And imho, the IT4 comparison does not hold. Thomas had never been a consistent starter when he arrived in Boston and he had been under utilized on his prior teams. Essentially, his game had not yet been fully formed.

Irving, on the other hand, is what he is. The Cs are only hoping that Stevens can maximize his strengths and hide his weaknesses rather than giving him an entirely new role like he did for Thomas.

Your analysis/insight apparently didn't take a look at the list of teams Woj reported Irving listed at desired destinations, all of who had strong coaches (except New York). Certainly the act of someone who -doesn't- want to be coached and wants to be a freelancer, eh? Popovich and the Spurs! The Heat and Spolestra! The Timberwolves and Tom Thibodeau! Boston and Stevens as mentioned by David Griffin? Psh! Who would want to be coached by -that- as a freelancer?

https://www.celticsblog.com/2017/8/7/16109514/david-griffin-includes-boston-celtics-on-kyrie-irvings-list-of-desired-teams

If the concern trolling is that Irving wouldn't take to it, maybe he shouldn't have, you know, sought out teams with strong coaching situations, as reported by those same 'insiders' you seem to place more of an emphasis on. That or you should have paid better attention to what they were saying and then ask 'why -would- Irving want those kind of situations if he wants to keep freelancing?'

It took Bradley a number of years to develop and keep improving his game, and -he- was a starter under Stevens for most of the same period, as a... let's see, has he been a six years starter? So his sixth year he kept growing and improving. Don't think Bradley has topped out yet. I have a difficult time believing that a player in his sixth year can't keep improving, especially at the tender age of 25. Hell, so did Gordon Hayward over the same time period, and I don't think Hayward has topped out yet either.

I think that the biggest thing with Irving in Cleveland was the lack of coaching stability and that, you know, the -scheme- in Cleveland was essentially "Give the ball to Lebron and do what he wants you to do". Giving him an actual coach and work a scheme designed -for- him and see what he does -is- a cause for optimism. Which is what an actual x-and-o analyst is saying.

God knows, I don't think Irving is a top-five player -now-. But he has the ability to do things and Brad Stevens -is- very good at coaching and will be looking more at what Irving -can- do and maximize that. Irving could very well be the same player -and- look much better because they'd actually focus on what he can do and not ask him to keep chucking up shots when the clock dies. Although I suppose he -would- be a better option for that kind of thing than Marcus Smart, so there's that, too.

 

[Cesar Crespo]

And when the actual draft comes around, all their warts will be exposed and a few of those 5 guys won't even end up being in the top 5.

 

[Otis Foster]

Would not bang

Look like stigmata.

To the main point - I don't have any real knowledge about the NBA in general or trade particulars, but out of curiosity, I asked myself 'what are they waiting for', and came up with the following:

• They're waiting for a medical second opinion before they commit. I suppose its possible - if the first report was overly optimistic and Zeke loses much of 2018, they'll never live it down if they don't do extreme vetting. (Sorry)
• They in fact are waiting for some nudge/nudge wink/wink about a better deal. If so, they're playing with fire. Ainge will be on them like the hounds of hell. Anyway, if that is a possibility, it would have been on the table before this.
• The Mr. Micawber approach: "Something will turn up". They lose nothing by running the clock down to zero, and if in fact they've been talking about sweetening the pot, they think Ainge may bend a little. Based on my limited observation of him, that's a gross misreading. Gilbert may be a bounder, but he's not that stupid, is he? (Or is he?) Still, if there's no cost to letting this simmer overnight,why not? I suppose Silver could start getting on their case, but they can always revert to the first bullet as a rationale (second opinion), which would be hard to dispute even if you assume this is simply a stall to buy time.
• They in fact are trying to find a partner to flip some or all of the assets they're getting from the Celtics. On the surface, this sounds more defensible, assuming there's nothing to prevent a hypothetical discussion. They in effect have a right of rescission, which gives them at least a contingent interest in Irving. Again, this may get Silver riled up; there's something that still doesn't sound right about it, probably the certainty that they would be using the trade in an inappropriate fashion by hawking players they didn't control. I suppose this is like any three-way trade, the difference here being that the trade was in fact executed subject only to the medical reports. There's nothing in there that justifies an additional contingency, that you can find a new home for some or all of your targets.

I know, I'm rehashing points that have been raised before, for which I apologize. I'm genuinely curious about the thought process here.

 

[Sam Ray Not]

I'd be shocked if the Nets win as many as 30 games.

Vegas has them at 28.5 wins, same as SAC and PHO, more than CHI or ATL, and within five games of NYK, IND, ORL, and LAL.

That's nine teams projected to suck, of which BKN has by far the least incentive to tank. They also just seem to have a youthful and positive vibe about them this year, with lots of shooters (= high variance), and a healthy Jeremy Lin to steady the ship and stir the drink.

Throw in a rando mediocre team or two who may drop due to injury, and I won't be at all surprised to see BKN end up in the #7-8 slot — which would give them only a 10-15% chance of hitting lotto.

 

[JCizzle]

The perfect ending to this whole shit show... Dickie V haha

(I don't think he means it's done yet)

 

[InstaFace]

I know the mantra is that he is "only 25" and "just entering his prime". However, as was previously pointed out, he is a six year NBA veteran starter and typically tendencies are pretty deeply ingrained in that timeframe. In other words, we aren't about to witness Kyrie's Taylor Swift coming of age period.

Are you saying we were both young when we first saw him?

 

[Eddie Jurak]

To clarify Woj et al have more insight into what makes these guys tick and their personalities than someone like Lowe. I hamfistedly tried to say that Stevens certainly can maximize Kyrie's strengths, it remains to be seen if latter will take to it after all this time as essentially a freelancer.

And imho, the IT4 comparison does not hold. Thomas had never been a consistent starter when he arrived in Boston and he had been under utilized on his prior teams. Essentially, his game had not yet been fully formed.

Irving, on the other hand, is what he is. The Cs are only hoping that Stevens can maximize his strengths and hide his weaknesses rather than giving him an entirely new role like he did for Thomas.

It is an interesting thesis (at a certain age, or after a certain number of years in the league, or minutes played in the league, a player "is what he is") but 'interesting' does not necessarily mean 'true'.

Irving is a fairly unique case. How often does a guy follow his particular trajectory.? 3 years on a crap team as a very young player, followed by 3 years on a great, but LBJ-dominated team, followed by a trade to a team with an innovative coach and a strong supporting cast.

A couple of the things Lowe wrote about sound like they will be immediately addressed in Boston (e.g., Kyrie pounding the ball while waiting for someone to set a pick for him doesn't sound like a thing that will happen a lot in Boston).

If things don't work out for Kyrie here i think it will be more because of what he WON'T do than what he CAN'T do. And this is a new enough situation that I don't think we can infer that directly from his past history.