This is a great point, and it's one reason why I'd pick Jordan over Lebron: Lebron's size allows him to do things no other player can do, because of matchup problems all over the place. The reason I'm holding this against him is that it's outside the ambit of NBA accomplishment. If that makes sense.
I couldn't disagree more. The Cavs roster, sans LeBron is maybe a .500 team at best and may not even make the playoffs in the east this season. He won a championship with a team that is much thinner in terms of talent than any of Jordan's championship squads.
Dubious is generous. More like ridiculous.Two dubious embedded arguments in that one argument.
1) LeBron is not making his teammates better (enough).
2) Jordan did make his teammates better. (Or at least more than LeBron does.)
Go ahead.
turned an All-Star who was one of the best rebounders in the NBA into a pumpkin
You're right, Lebron gave Love a concussion. I forgot that.
He spent like 10 minutes hugging -- while crying -- Kevin Love. Ditto Kyrie Irving. Ditto JR Smith.
What did LeBron do to Mario Chalmers, Chris Bosh, James Jones, Shane Battier, and Birdman in Miami? What has he done to Kyrie Irving, Tristan Thompson, and JR Smith in Cleveland? James is one of the brilliant passers of this generation and constantly makes the right basketball play to put his teammates in favorable positions to succeed.
Oh I know of Kyrie Irving. He played great this series.
Yep. I think it's ovah. Bird is an all-time legend. LeBron is better. Each has three titles. Each lost championship series. Bird has 3 MVPs, LeBron has 4. LeBron won a title with no other HOFers on the roster, though of course it remains to be seen if Love or Irving (the only two candidates) get into the HOF. Bird had Parish, McHale, Walton, and Tiny at various points.
I don't think it's entitlement, I think it's that he has been under a personal and professional microscope since he was, like, 12. That he isn't a complete headcase is kind of remarkable in and of itself.
Yup. LeBron is better. Bird was great but simply not as good as LeBron. And, barring catastrophe, LeBron is going to have a ton more elite years than Bird.
Interesting..if we go 5 and with no position I think it would be MJ, LeBron, Kareem, Russell, and Magic. But you could make a lot of different arguments for the last 2 spots. Bird, Duncan, Wilt
For this generation, I think the top 3 is pretty clear. LeBron then Duncan then Kobe
I think Bird's prime is the 3rd best in NBA history behind MJ and LeBron. Most would probably put him in the 3-5 range. Why do you think he's been criminally underrated?
Watching LeBron's post-game interviews last night, he sounds like a guy who has spent a lot of time with sports psychologists who drill leadership jargon into his thoughts and speech. Not a dig at all, because I'll wager most world class athletes do the same thing.
You could make the argument that the early iteration of the championship Chicago teams were similar to this year's Cavaliers: top-heavy, with journeymen filling in supporting roles (shooters like Paxson and Anderson at the 1, the guys they traded Oakley for at the 5). But that comparison falls apart when you consider how good Pippen really was. Although he's officially one of the NBA 50, he's probably a top ten or twenty guy when his defense is appropriately accounted for. Horace Grant was also a ridiculously talented power forward, one of the best of his era.
It's not "recency bias". I am likely a lot older than you and remember the 70s very well. The 90s are recent for me. And the fact is that from 89-96 the NBA went from a 23 team league with rosters up to 13 players to a 29 team league with an average of 13 players per roster. This meant that there was a huge dilution effect that caught up to the league as a result of everyones benches getting crappy and so many cakewalk teams entering the league (though the Magic beat the odds by winning back to back lotteries).
Kerr was a solid cog on 3 Bulls title winning teams and 7 playoff teams that did not include Jordan both before and after his years with MJ. He put up almost the exact same numbers in his playoff years without Jordan as he did with him.
Exactly so. To add, Steph Curry and Kevin Durant would also be cheat code types. The game is just all-around much better these days. Bird's work ethic was an anomaly, today it's normal.
Yes. And I'm usually wrong with WAY more words.It's that unusual for you to be right?
Oh, I agree about that, I always say this, because I recall the days of my youth when NBA players still smoked tobacco cigarettes. (Though in fairness Pete Maravich would have been a VGCC if the NBA had adopted the three point shot during the pre-merger nadir.)
Oh, yeah, we could easily start a several-page thread on Red's failures. Make that guy look worse than Ben Cherington - his wins were huge, his losses were equally-so. Famous rumor goes that Chris Wallace was high on Tony Parker and Red insisted on Joe Forte.
No, I don't think anyone is disputing that Jordan was the better scorer but I also don't think the pro-Lebron crowd is giving this the proper weight or fully giving Jordan his due on this. Jordan wasn't just a little better, he was a much better scorer. Everyone knew the ball was going to Jordan and it didn't matter, time and time again he'd score. Just last night we saw Curry disappear and LeBron rely on Irving late in a game 7. The last 5 minutes was an ugly back-and-forth of no one wanting to win. And if Jordan had been on either team that team would have won because he would have taken over and scored like he did at the end of just about every game he played.
Me personally? I'm weighting scoring a little light because of light-years of distance between mid-90s defense and modern defense. Both structurally and schematically.
Were you watching the same game? Nearly every possession of the last quarter would have been called for illegal D in the old days. Every single possession on both sides of the ball. And that's by design - all the schemes are fluid and all offenses try to use the defensive fluidity to exploit mismatches.
No, and no. The players are much stronger, better conditioned, eat better, have fewer bad habits, have better medical care, and are better trained. Not to mention they use help defense. The Cavs and especially the Warriors could limit Jordan. That's not to say he couldn't score 30. It's to say that his scoring 30 against those teams would a Kobe-style empty-calorie scoring. Or young-LeBron-against-Cs empty-calorie scoring.
No. Any comparison of players between eras should start with understanding the structural differences between the eras. What do the rules promote and penalize?
