Let's Lay Off That Throttle

[Rovin Romine]

Is that really true? I think we all wish Bloom had done more of it, but the Vasquez return was good, and the JBJ trade obviously turned out poorly but at least he was trying to buy some prospects there. In the same time span, what veteran have the Yankees traded away, Gallo? I think a lot of their fans have been wondering for years now why they aren't trading Gleyber.

Not all prospects pan out. Bloom picked up 4 pieces for Vasquez, Renfroe, and JBJ's contract hit. Abreu looks like a keeper, Valdez is still very young and has a very good bat that can play on the ML level. Hamilton may have plateaued, but he's only 26 and has hit passably well in AAA. The only real "miss" thusfar is Binelas, who is going into his age 24 season after repeating AA with a .755 OPS. He's young enough to turn things around, but. . .not all prospects pan out.

You still do both those trades, I think, but the JBJ one looks very bad because they obviously thought he could still hit passably.

 

[Sandy Leon Trotsky]

Not all prospects pan out. Bloom picked up 4 pieces for Vasquez, Renfroe, and JBJ's contract hit. Abreu looks like a keeper, Valdez is still very young and has a very good bat that can play on the ML level. Hamilton may have plateaued, but he's only 26 and has hit passably well in AAA. The only real "miss" thusfar is Binelas, who is going into his age 24 season after repeating AA with a .755 OPS. He's young enough to turn things around, but. . .not all prospects pan out.

You still do both those trades, I think, but the JBJ one looks very bad because they obviously thought he could still hit passably.

Really the trades Bloom actually did generally were pretty good returns (I’m not getting into a discussion about Mookie F’in Betts here)… it’s the ones he may not have done that seem to upset people despite conflicting reports on them

 

[moondog80]

Not all prospects pan out. Bloom picked up 4 pieces for Vasquez, Renfroe, and JBJ's contract hit. Abreu looks like a keeper, Valdez is still very young and has a very good bat that can play on the ML level. Hamilton may have plateaued, but he's only 26 and has hit passably well in AAA. The only real "miss" thusfar is Binelas, who is going into his age 24 season after repeating AA with a .755 OPS. He's young enough to turn things around, but. . .not all prospects pan out.

You still do both those trades, I think, but the JBJ one looks very bad because they obviously thought he could still hit passably.

I'd also say Winckowski has a good chance to turn the Benny trade into a win.

 

[simplicio]

Yeah we traded away Benny and the MFY traded for him, we know who the real winner is here.

 

[nighthob]

The people I trust most on the Red Sox farm system are the folks at SoxProspects. They go to games at the minor-leage affiliates and make a trip to spring training to scout players themselves, talks to scouts from opposing teams. They update the rankings regularly. For that I--and I'm sure others here--donate to their site for all the great work.

And according to SoxProspects, the highest-ranking pitching prospect brought into the system under Bloom's watch is Yordanny Monegro, who has "the ceiling of a back-end starter." Luis Perales (No. 7 in the system), Wikelman Gonzalez (No. 9) and Richard Fitts (No. 11) all are guys who COULD be starters in the majors but also might be better off in the bullpen. I hope they all take a step forward this year and show they can be major-league starters, but it's easy to see why some prospect evaluators are bearish on a system with such a dearth of starting pitching prospects.

Part of the problem with the Sox Prospects guys, with regards to pitchers, is that they use fastball velocity as the basis of their evaluations. The guys they see as the crown jewels are the guys that I think are going to end up in the pen due to command/control issues (Perales and Gonzalez). I’m with Breslow on this one, command/control are more important.

And also because of age and maturity. If Bloom’s philosophy was to add young international arms in volume, we might start to see the survivors who were signed out of Venezuela or the DR at age 16 or 17 hit the part of their development arc where they become more than lottery tickets.

There are three guys in the system that could use a velocity bump (which was Breslow’s specialty). Yordanny Monegro already has a ridiculous curveball (it’s an ace level pitch) and his fastball has reached the 92-94 range. One more velocity bump and he becomes a potential top of the rotation starter.

There are two other interesting guys in this regard, Isaac Coffey and Jedixson Paez. Coffey pounds the strike zone, but his fastball tops out at 90-92. If he can gain a couple of miles per hour then he becomes a potential mid to late rotation guy. Paez similarly pounds the strike zone with his fastball and locates it really well. He has a good curveball too. But his heater tops out at 92-93. It sits at 89-91. If he can get just a little more velocity on it he becomes a potential middle of the rotation guy.

 

[TubeSoxs]

Is that really true? I think we all wish Bloom had done more of it, but the Vasquez return was good, and the JBJ trade obviously turned out poorly but at least he was trying to buy some prospects there. In the same time span, what veteran have the Yankees traded away, Gallo? I think a lot of their fans have been wondering for years now why they aren't trading Gleyber.

Yankees have been a more solid team the last four years. When I typed this I was more thinking along the lines of the year they traded off both Andrew Miller and Aroldis Chapman. I kind of hoped for that with Jensen and Martin last season, which in turn might have put this offseason more in perspective. The Vasquez trade made no sense though as they were both adding and subtracting at the same time.

 

[ZMart100]

Part of the problem with the Sox Prospects guys, with regards to pitchers, is that they use fastball velocity as the basis of their evaluations.

I don't think that's an accurate characterization. There are several high velo guys they don't care for.

 

[burstnbloom]

This is a fixed point in time interpretation, though. I obviously follow the Yankees primarily and they have been cranking out pitchers so quickly that it's hard for them to fully register in the prospect rankings. They have traded/lost something like 30 pitchers since the 2022 deadline, including four they sent this winter for Juan Soto, and have been turning around guys so quickly that you have examples like Drew Thorpe and Chase Hampton, both 2022 draft picks who didn't throw a professional pitch until 2023 and now both top 100 guys already.

well my post was in regards to the run of posts on offseason farm system rankings, which are by definition, fixed point in time interpretations.

the argument I’m making is I think the narrative isn’t lining up with the contextual reality of pitching in the minors across the industry.

the counter argument is likely that maybe those systems have depth arms in the low minors with high upside but I reject that whole cloth as something that should be a large scale rankings mover because, quantitatively, projecting guys like that to be anything at all is like throwing darts with the lights off.

All of this to reiterate that system rankings are probably a waste of time.

 

[jbupstate]

Keith Law has his Top 100 Prospects up on The Athletic.

No pitchers but exciting players at hard to fill, premium up the middle positions (SS, CF, C).

https://theathletic.com/5245693/2024/02/05/top-100-mlb-prospects-2024-keith-law/?source=user_shared_articleTop 100 MLB prospects 2024: Keith Law’s rankings, with Jackson Holliday at No. 1


8 - Mayer

He’s got the athleticism and first-step movement to be a plus defender at short, showing the ability to make difficult or distant plays, and needs to work more on consistency to become a 60 or better in the field.

22 - Anthony

boasts one of the best-looking swings in the minors, making a number of adjustments between when the Red Sox took him in the second round in 2022 and the start of 2023, turning him into one of the game’s top offensive prospects

32 - Rafaela

not the sort of player I typically like with his undisciplined approach, but I think he has a chance to be the most valuable defensive outfielder in baseball

54 - Teel

a catcher who hits a ton of line drives and is at least an average receiver is good enough to make some All-Star teams

88 - Bleis

He’ll show five tools, with 60 raw power and 55 speed that would allow him to stay in center long-term if he doesn’t lose speed as he fills out, and he has great bat speed that’s undermined by a poor approach

 

[chawson]

I think this is the farm system thread now?

Keith Law’s top 100 has 5 Sox prospects: Mayer at #8, Anthony at #22, Rafaela at #32, Teel at #54, and Bleis at #88.

Four Red Sox prospects within the Top 50~ is quite good, even though I expect he’ll ding us for the lack of pitching.

Still, part of that is the nature of the rankings. For whatever reason (risk, likely), pitchers don’t crack the top 100 as easily.

Other AL East teams:
Orioles (5): Holliday, Basallo, Mayo, Kjerstad, Bradfield Jr. (all hitters)
Rays (4): Caminero, Williams, Taylor, Mead (all hitters)
Yankees (3): Dominguez, Pereira, Arias (all hitters)
Blue Jays (2): Tiedemann, Nimmala (one pitcher, one hitter)

Law has only 22 pitchers in the Top 100.

 

[burstnbloom]

I think this is the farm system thread now?

Keith Law’s top 100 has 5 Sox prospects: Mayer at #8, Anthony at #22, Rafaela at #32, Teel at #54, and Bleis at #88.

Four Red Sox prospects within the Top 50~ is quite good, even though I expect he’ll ding us for the lack of pitching.

Still, part of that is the nature of the rankings. For whatever reason (risk, likely), pitchers don’t crack the top 100 as easily.

Other AL East teams:
Orioles (5): Holliday, Basallo, Mayo, Kjerstad, Bradfield Jr. (all hitters)
Rays (4): Caminero, Williams, Taylor, Mead (all hitters)
Yankees (3): Dominguez, Pereira, Arias (all hitters)
Blue Jays (2): Tiedemann, Nimmala (one pitcher, one hitter)

Law has only 22 pitchers in the Top 100.

To the bolded:

MLB Pipeline: 26
Baseball America: 31
ESPN: 29

Law is a bit more sour on some of the fringy guys at the back half (for good reason, I think) but not in such a way as to make him a serious outlier. Pitching is short in the minors right now.

 

[Sandy Leon Trotsky]

FWIW, the Athletic had a top prospect ranking this morning with 4 Sox in the top 53 (Keel at 53, Mayer, Rafaela, Anthony above him) and Bleis still in the top 100 despite the injury and lost season.
IIRC, Yorke was in it last season

Edit- said better above

 

[absintheofmalaise]

There's some good discussion on these guys in the Mil forum.

 

[Rovin Romine]

The Vasquez trade made no sense though as they were both adding and subtracting at the same time.

Vazquez was the epitome of trading high and getting a good return. He sucked for Houston after he was traded. He sucked for MIN last year. https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/v/vazquch01.shtml

On the same day Deikman was traded to the CWS for McGuire. The wobbly wheels fell off there: https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/d/diekmja01.shtml

McGuire meanwhile, was monstrously good for us that year, then settled into his second fiddle role: https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/m/mcguire01.shtml

(We also got Pham for org. filler, who did not thrive here. https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/p/phamth01.shtml )

***
You can argue that Bloom should have been more aggressive in his acquisitions, either focusing on prospects or GFIN players.

But you can't argue the trades weren't good trades.

 

[TomRicardo]

But you can't argue the trades weren't good trades.

How do you define a good trade? Bloom never made a killer trade that massively set up the team. He never created an excessive of value or land a top 100 prospect. He did make some trades you can say he won, the chief among them being Vasquez trade, but that gave you a possible OF and a bench bat. He never traded for a future all star.

 

[HfxBob]

Vazquez was the epitome of trading high and getting a good return. He sucked for Houston after he was traded. He sucked for MIN last year. https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/v/vazquch01.shtml

Saying Vazquez sucked for Houston isn't really fair because they got him for his defense, not his bat.

Evaluating a catcher's defense is always difficult. But one thing we can say is that in the 2022 postseason, the Astros pitchers had an incredible run when Vazquez was catching.

ALDS 1 2 innings 0 runs
ALDS 3 12 innings 0 runs (18 inning game)
ALCS 3 9 innings 0 runs
WS 1 1 inning 1 run
WS 4 9 innings 0 runs (team no-hitter)

Total 33 innings 1 run

 

[Red(s)HawksFan]

How do you define a good trade? Bloom never made a killer trade that massively set up the team. He never created an excessive of value or land a top 100 prospect. He did make some trades you can say he won, the chief among them being Vasquez trade, but that gave you a possible OF and a bench bat. He never traded for a future all star.

Jeter Downs was a top 100 prospect when he was acquired (which demonstrates how useless that metric is).

 

[Benj4ever]

How do you define a good trade? Bloom never made a killer trade that massively set up the team. He never created an excessive of value or land a top 100 prospect. He did make some trades you can say he won, the chief among them being Vasquez trade, but that gave you a possible OF and a bench bat. He never traded for a future all star.

How many GMs have traded for a future all star? That's would be an outstanding trade, not just a good one.

 

[TapeAndPosts]

How many GMs have traded for a future all star? That's would be an outstanding trade, not just a good one.

Dan Duquette once traded for two future All-Stars at the same time

Honestly I think the part of the issues we are all having adjusting to expectations is that it isn't as easy to fleece a team as it used to be. Sure it's possible, but other teams are smarter now. It's no longer true that the only well-run clubs are ours and Billy Beane's, and maybe the Yankees but we wouldn't admit that anyway...

 

[TomRicardo]

How many GMs have traded for a future all star? That's would be an outstanding trade, not just a good one.

Every GM the Red Sox had for the last 50 years.

O'Connell - Gary Bell
Sullivan - Mark Clear
Gorman - Lee Smith
Duquette - Pedro and Varitek
Epstein - Schilling and Beckett
Cherington - Porcello (not an All Star but won the Cy Young) and Brock Holt
Dombrowski - Chris Sale

Off the top of my head there are more.

 

[Benj4ever]

Every GM the Red Sox had for the last 50 years,.

Then name them. And include the length of their tenure as well. By the way, as far as I can tell Epstein never made a trade for a future all star. The Red Sox added Big Papi as a free agent.

 

[Rovin Romine]

How do you define a good trade? Bloom never made a killer trade that massively set up the team. He never created an excessive of value or land a top 100 prospect. He did make some trades you can say he won, the chief among them being Vasquez trade, but that gave you a possible OF and a bench bat. He never traded for a future all star.

Some of what you wrote, addressed upthread, is factually wrong.

Also, he did crush your soul by trading Markus Lynn, and that has to be worth something, right?

But does any of it make the Vazquez trade, or the Deikman trade, or the Pham trade a bad trade?

Because those were the trades I was addressing.

 

[Rovin Romine]

Saying Vazquez sucked for Houston isn't really fair because they got him for his defense, not his bat.

Evaluating a catcher's defense is always difficult. But one thing we can say is that in the 2022 postseason, the Astros pitchers had an incredible run when Vazquez was catching.

ALDS 1 2 innings 0 runs
ALDS 3 12 innings 0 runs (18 inning game)
ALCS 3 9 innings 0 runs
WS 1 1 inning 1 run
WS 4 9 innings 0 runs (team no-hitter)

Total 33 innings 1 run

And yet, he was not any better than Plawecki or Wong were for us earlier that year: https://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/split.cgi?t=p&team=BOS&year=2022 (Scroll to the bottom.)

So. . .I guess your argument is that if this were a real effect he could turn on at will, he was a pretty crap teammate for withholding it from the club earlier in the season?

 

[8slim]

Dan Duquette once traded for two future All-Stars at the same time

Honestly I think the part of the issues we are all having adjusting to expectations is that it isn't as easy to fleece a team as it used to be. Sure it's possible, but other teams are smarter now. It's no longer true that the only well-run clubs are ours and Billy Beane's, and maybe the Yankees but we wouldn't admit that anyway...

The bolded point about fleecing is interesting, but I'm not sure it's because a bunch of teams used to be dumb. I think it may be more about how every MLB front office is now working from the same playbook.

Analytics has led to a homogenization of the game. Everyone values the same things, and eschews the same things.

Sure, some deals were once won because one GM was smarter than another. But more often I think GMs valued different things, and made deals accordingly. It's a lot more difficult to win a trade when everyone has the same objectives.

 

[Benj4ever]

Every GM the Red Sox had for the last 50 years.

O'Connell - Gary Bell
Sullivan - Mark Clear
Gorman - Lee Smith
Duquette - Pedro and Varitek
Epstein - Schilling and Beckett
Cherington - Porcello (not an All Star but won the Cy Young) and Brock Holt
Dombrowski - Chris Sale

Off the top of my head there are more.

We're down to semantics here. All the guys you mentioned were established players. When I see "future all star," I think of prospects who became all stars. So, no, by my definition, the only future all stars from Gorman on are Pedro, Varitek, and Holt. All the other guys were established veterans.

 

[TomRicardo]

Some of what you wrote, addressed upthread, is factually wrong.

But does any of it make the Vazquez trade, or the Deikman trade, or the Pham trade a bad trade?

Because those were the trades I was addressing.

They just aren't important. It is like saying you are won a chess match that you were checkmated in because you took more pawns. The team is still awful. You can win a trade and have very little effect on the team overall.

The most meaningful positive move Bloom made as GM was signing Kike Hernandez. He brought in 5.9 WAR on his original two year contract on 14 million dollars. His improbable 5.0 WAR season in 2021 was a very large part to them sneaking into the playoffs.

 

[TomRicardo]

We're down to semantics here. All the guys you mentioned were established players. When I see "future all star," I think of prospects who became all stars. So, no, by my definition, there are no "future" all stars from Gorman on (I don't know about Clear or Bell).

They all besides Porcello became all stars with the Red Sox. Porcello won a Cy Young with the Red Sox.

 

[simplicio]

We left out Steven Wright too.

 

[chrisfont9]

Every GM the Red Sox had for the last 50 years.

O'Connell - Gary Bell
Sullivan - Mark Clear
Gorman - Lee Smith
Duquette - Pedro and Varitek
Epstein - Schilling and Beckett
Cherington - Porcello (not an All Star but won the Cy Young) and Brock Holt
Dombrowski - Chris Sale

Off the top of my head there are more.

Eovaldi, Kiimbrel, Koji, Adrian Gonzalez. BTW Jansen was an all star last year, but I guess Bloom doesn't get any credit there.

 

[Auger34]

Eovaldi, Kiimbrel, Koji, Adrian Gonzalez. BTW Jansen was an all star last year, but I guess Bloom doesn't get any credit there.

I don’t necessarily agree with TomRicardo but he did very clearly state that he was talking about players acquired by trade.
Jansen was an FA….so no he doesn’t get any credit

 

[nvalvo]

Every GM the Red Sox had for the last 50 years.

O'Connell - Gary Bell
Sullivan - Mark Clear
Gorman - Lee Smith
Duquette - Pedro and Varitek
Epstein - Schilling and Beckett
Cherington - Porcello (not an All Star but won the Cy Young) and Brock Holt
Dombrowski - Chris Sale

Off the top of my head there are more.

Aren’t you basically just saying that Bloom never got to do the part of the success cycle where he got many chances to acquire that kind of piece? He got to do the part where you trade away All Stars for multiple regulars, and maybe didn’t do quite as well as we wish he might have.

Even so, he got pretty close: Alex Verdugo’s first half was plausibly All Star caliber, to the point that the national press mentioned him in All Star snub listicles.

 

[HfxBob]

Results of The Athletic's survey of Red Sox fans are in:

https://theathletic.com/5248054/2024/02/05/boston-red-sox-2024-fan-survey-results/

 

[tims4wins]

Results of The Athletic's survey of Red Sox fans are in:

https://theathletic.com/5248054/2024/02/05/boston-red-sox-2024-fan-survey-results/

Thanks for linking. Pretty damning results.

 

[simplicio]

Not really, it's an internet poll, not a scientific study.

 

[OCD SS]

Are the results a surprise?

 

[Sandy Leon Trotsky]

It also highly unlikely takes a sample of the full base of "Red Sox fans" and more likely gets one of the type that actually have subscriptions to The Athletic and/or SoSH posters who are more highly attuned to the minutiae of free agency, front office stuff, trades, 40-man roster stuff etc.... My old man is a pretty hardcore fan for 50+ years after moving to the NE area and completely tunes out baseball the minute the Sox play their last game and doesn't engage again until the sometime in mid to late April even. He just enjoys the team that shows up on the field.

 

[Benj4ever]

They all besides Porcello became all stars with the Red Sox. Porcello won a Cy Young with the Red Sox.

You're not listening.

 

[TomRicardo]

You're not listening.

Dude what is this post? Are you adding any context? I have no idea what you are referring to. I know with Rovin Romine pollution on the main board this seems acceptable but it isn't.

If you want to comment, add something to what you are replying to. In the last episode the Blooming Last Place Cheerleaders were trying to say Bloom killed it with every trade. Yet the roster increasingly grew devoid of talent until we got to today. My response is Bloom never made a trade for any major talent, just kind of collected fringe major leaguers when he pulled the trigger. In a vacuum these trades aren't bad. You need guys Winckowski to pitch middle relief. But over four years when you continuously lose talent, you either have to sign talent, graduate talent, or trade for talent. You can't continuously lose 5 WAR players and try to replace them with a sea of 1-2 WAR players.

The last time the Red Sox snuck into the playoffs in 2021, you had Xander, Kike, Eovaldi, Devers, and JD Martinez all give you over 3.0 WAR. You also had career year from Whitlock and lost Renfroe and ERod. Bello is the only person who stepped in to that space.

Right now walking into next season only Devers project to be in that 3.0 WAR+ region. Casas is close on Steamer and probably a solid bet to beat his projections. That is your talent.

If Crawford can start throwing his sweeper/slider in the zone, he definitely would my bet to best improve on the pitching side. However the pitch selection / framing of Wong/McGuire is pretty lacking especially with the the third time around the line up with starters. Then tend to call to fastballs that hang high and get Houck, Pivetta, Crawford, name a starter smoked. The cutter will only bail you out so much as a starter unless you can mix it with a big movement slider like Crawford. With Bello you would want to see a lot less of 4 seem fast ball when he is ahead in the count. With Houck you would want to see less of the slider early.

Improving the pitch calling with Houck, Pivetta, Kutter, and Bello could make a couple of wins difference but we are sticking with Wong / McGuire who both are borderline bench catchers.

 

[Benj4ever]

Dude what is this post? Are you adding any context? I have no idea what you are referring to. I know with Rovin Romine pollution on the main board this seems acceptable but it isn't.

I replied to your statement regarding all-stars. I included your statement in my reply. I implied that you did not address my previous statement that acquiring established stars was different than finding guys who will grow into all stars. Did you forget our previous conversations? They're on the same page if your memory is that short!

And honestly, I don't see where your reply that "They all besides Porcello became all stars with the Red Sox. Porcello won a Cy Young with the Red Sox" added anything to the conversation. I had already acknowledged that in my previous post, so your post itself added no new informational context.

Now, to "contribute." The notion of a "good" trade is completely arbitrary. And even if we accept some arbitrary standard, then what matters more in determining the skill of a GM is not if he makes a good trade, but rather the frequency with which he makes good trades, as well as his decisions in free agency and his development of the farm system. Plus, you have to consider the amount of talent he gave up in the transaction and the constraints he was under during his tenure (and, yes, I'm talking about the penny-pinching of ownership under Bloom's tenure).

I also see that you left out Jose Iglesias and Kyle Schwarber in Bloom's acquisitions. Without the contribution they made in the Sox late-season run, the team has an only infinitesimal chance at making the playoffs.

 

[chawson]

Unless the Red Sox blew it up, there was very little value on the 26-man roster Bloom inherited besides Bogaerts, Devers, E-Rod, and Benintendi — and those last two had injuries crater their values during the pandemic year. Sale, Eovaldi, and J.D. Martinez had on-field value, but very little trade value at their salaries. Sale was always hurt, and this board IIRC was very, very down on Eovaldi in 2019-20. 2020 was also a totally lost year for JDM, and he had a foot injury the offseason raising questions for him the winter of 2021-22. I definitely wanted them to trade him and re-sign Schwarber, but if someone valued JDM that high, Boras would have known it and he would have opted out.

Landing three games back at both the ‘22 and ‘23 deadlines was the absolute worst spot for Bloom to be in — you can’t really sell there, out of principle, and you can’t buy either. And you have to stay under the CBT for one of them. It didn’t help that obvious sell candidates like Wacha, Kiké, Eovaldi, Arroyo, Hill, and JDM (who was broken) were all hurt at the ‘22 deadline, Hosmer got hurt immediately and killed any chance of getting flipped in the offseason, and last year’s two best deadline trade candidates, Duvall and Paxton, also had their production and trade value marred by injury by August 1st.

Benintendi was hurt in 2020, but had been a total noodle bat the last few months of 2019. Vazquez was trending down for a while, but we had no other catching in the system and the alternatives (Realmuto at 5/$115M, James McCann) were bad ideas. The guy we ideally should have traded, E-Rod, had a scary health issue that arrested his value after 2020, and then pitched very well in a season that ended in a deep postseason run. What can you do about that?

Bloom’s job was to build the roster’s assets while still trying to contend, with the backdrop of a pandemic and a lockout, and a litany of injuries among the roster he inherited. Tough job. In hindsight, I wonder if we should have just sold off Bogaerts after 2021. You can’t do a full rebuild in Boston, they say, but I can’t imagine people would be angrier than they are now.

 

[jbupstate]

Bloom’s job was to build the roster’s assets while still trying to contend, with the backdrop of a pandemic and a lockout, and a litany of injuries among the roster he inherited. Tough job. In hindsight, I wonder if we should have just sold off Bogaerts after 2021. You can’t do a full rebuild in Boston, they say, but I can’t imagine people would be an

I would add reset payroll. Clearly FSG wasn’t going to add any mega contracts or sell/trade any name brands. They wanted it all. Reset, rebuild and contend.

It was more than a tough job… it was impossible.

 

[Sandy Leon Trotsky]

I would add reset payroll. Clearly FSG wasn’t going to add any mega contracts or sell/trade any name brands. They wanted it all. Reset, rebuild and contend.

It was more than a tough job… it was impossible.

I do think Henry brought in Bloom to do an impossible job and scapegoated him for doing his bidding. I still think he owed Bloom one more season and a bump in salary but the howling from fans and media forced their hand to make a change.

 

[Max Power]

I do think Henry brought in Bloom to do an impossible job and scapegoated him for doing his bidding. I still think he owed Bloom one more season and a bump in salary but the howling from fans and media forced their hand to make a change.

He brought in Bloom to generate inexpensive, effective pitching like the Rays have been able to. He couldn't do it, the team didn't win enough games, and he was replaced by a guy who did the same for the Cubs.

 

[HfxBob]

He brought in Bloom to generate inexpensive, effective pitching like the Rays have been able to. He couldn't do it, the team didn't win enough games, and he was replaced by a guy who did the same for the Cubs.

As with many goings-on of the Red Sox in recent years, we're long on possibilities and theories, and short on facts (other than W-L records).

 

[sezwho]

He brought in Bloom to generate inexpensive, effective pitching like the Rays have been able to. He couldn't do it, the team didn't win enough games, and he was replaced by a guy who did the same for the Cubs.

That’s about it for me but won’t keep litigating.

I do think these payroll limitations (yes fine…if ultimately true) are a new constraint though, and Bloom had at least LTT to draw from.

Wisely or not, Bloom signed long expensive deals for Story, Masa, and Devers and I’m not sure that would be feasible this year. Ideally it will be again soon.

 

[Sandy Leon Trotsky]

He brought in Bloom to generate inexpensive, effective pitching like the Rays have been able to. He couldn't do it, the team didn't win enough games, and he was replaced by a guy who did the same for the Cubs.

I think that was a secondary task.... but yeah.
Primary task was: reduce payroll but put together competitive teams. Which, IMO, is an impossible task with the Sox fanbase and media but it did set up Henry to have a scapegoat when he couldn't juggle two opposing forces

 

[Max Power]

I think that was a secondary task.... but yeah.
Primary task was: reduce payroll but put together competitive teams. Which, IMO, is an impossible task with the Sox fanbase and media but it did set up Henry to have a scapegoat when he couldn't juggle two opposing forces

It's not impossible to put together a competitive team for $230m a year if you accomplish the task of finding good, inexpensive pitching.

 

[Big Papi's Mango Salsa]

It's not impossible to put together a competitive team for $230m a year if you accomplish the task of finding good, inexpensive pitching.

Even if it can't be developed from within, it doesn't even have to necessarily be "in-expensive."

Toronto has put together a nice team and it's not like they've been a pitching development machine either. They built their rotation mostly via free agency at the top end (Gausman) the middle (Bassitt and Kikuchi) and via trade and extension (Berrios).

The Cubs did it (at least last year) also with a similar roster of starters. Of course that developed Steele, but Stroman and Tallion were both FA signings.

At a certain level the Dbacks did too as they traded for Gallen and signed Kelly.

Of course, if you can't develop it, then you have to at least try to acquire starting pitching with lets say "mid tier" levels of capital expenditure. You could have a $400m payroll and if you still insisted on dumpster diving exclusively for starting pitching, the team would probably stink.

Well, to be fair, more likely win 98 games but lose in the divisional series on an annual basis.


It's not so much that the Red Sox have tried and failed to have good starting pitching the past half decade or so. It's that they really haven't made a good faith attempt at it (because all they do is use players with so many warts that they'll accept one year deals).

 

[Sandy Leon Trotsky]

Even if it can't be developed from within, it doesn't even have to necessarily be "in-expensive."

Toronto has put together a nice team and it's not like they've been a pitching development machine either. They built their rotation mostly via free agency at the top end (Gausman) the middle (Bassitt and Kikuchi) and via trade and extension (Berrios).

The Cubs did it (at least last year) also with a similar roster of starters. Of course that developed Steele, but Stroman and Tallion were both FA signings.

At a certain level the Dbacks did too as they traded for Gallen and signed Kelly.

Of course, if you can't develop it, then you have to at least try to acquire starting pitching with lets say "mid tier" levels of capital expenditure. You could have a $400m payroll and if you still insisted on dumpster diving exclusively for starting pitching, the team would probably stink.

Well, to be fair, more likely win 98 games but lose in the divisional series on an annual basis.


It's not so much that the Red Sox have tried and failed to have good starting pitching the past half decade or so. It's that they really haven't made a good faith attempt at it (because all they do is use players with so many warts that they'll accept one year deals).

Good lord, they were tethered to Chris Sale and clearly weren’t giving Bloom the okay to add a long term contract. I’m not 100% defending him as he made a few major goofs but the guy was screwed by Henry

 

[John Marzano Olympic Hero]

Good lord, they were tethered to Chris Sale and clearly weren’t giving Bloom the okay to add a long term contract. I’m not 100% defending him as he made a few major goofs but the guy was screwed by Henry

Bloom also turned down a Sale trade to the Rangers because he was quibbling over prospects. He could’ve snapped that tether but for whatever reason couldn’t.

This job was much too big for Bloom. I think Henry finally realized that sometime last year.