Let's say BB stays on until he retires. What does that mean for the franchise?

CoolPapaLaSchelle

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If I wanted to give a young coach like Nick Caley cover to get acclimated as a first-time playcaller, deploying amorphous titles and giving full visibility to two former HCs who are used to media attention/serving as lightning rods would make a good deal of sense. And maybe it would be a sign of shrewd personnel management as opposed to losing my fastball, megalomania, early onset dementia, or a burning need to cheese off Greg Bedard.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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It goes without saying that Belichick is not infallible.

That being said, the sheer offense that Bedard and a lot of these other guys take when Belichick does something different than the expected norm is pretty telling, I think. Their constant refrain is "Arrogance!" and "Hubris!" when BB does anything that the writers don't specify. It's weird.
 

Jimbodandy

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It goes without saying that Belichick is not infallible.

That being said, the sheer offense that Bedard and a lot of these other guys take when Belichick does something different than the expected norm is pretty telling, I think. Their constant refrain is "Arrogance!" and "Hubris!" when BB does anything that the writers don't specify. It's weird.
Lost in their journalism education was a definition of irony. Or hubris. Probably both.
 

Kenny F'ing Powers

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I can't begin to count the number of complaints tied to McDaniels offensive coaching calls over the last few years. Maybe let's just see how, like, the games actually play out...
 

rodderick

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I find the consternation over the coaching, particularly vis a vis Judge and Patricia to be really weird. It's truly fellowship of the miserable stuff. I mean, look at the two favorite OCs in the history of NE football: St. Charlie and St. Josh, hallowed be thy names. Look at their paths to OC, and then what they did outside of NE. And then compare them to Judge and Patricia and explain to me why Judge and Patricia are problems.

In Charlie's first stint in NE, he went from coaching TEs, to RBs, to WRs. But how in the wide, wide world of sports could a coach ever possibly learn to coach multiple positional groups? Is that even possible? My gosh, it must be! Charlie came back to NE as an OC and the team won some Super Bowls, And then Charlie left NE, had a good year at Notre Dame with Brady Quinn, and the rest of his coaching career was an abject failure. Like he was absolutely awful. Did he forget how to coach? Is there some sort of weird year to year variance in his ability to coach? Or was he just a successful coach when he had good players to coach and an unsuccessful coach when he had lousy players?

St. Josh was an assistant DB coach in NE for a season and then became the QB coach at age 28. That's right, a 28 year old who'd never coached offensive football was put in charge of being Brady's positional coach in 2004. The f*cking horror of it all, right? I can only imagine what Twitter and the podcasts would have been like in 2004. Bill is RUINING Tom Brady's career! The hubris of it all! And of course it worked out fine. And Josh was successful when the team was good. And Josh was an abject failure with the Broncos and Rams when the players sucked. Did Josh forget how to call plays or something? Or does having sh*tty players make for sh*tty results? (I'm going with yes, btw)

People put waaaay too much into positional coaching like it's some sort of big mystery. The reason why coaches like Weis and McDaniels can move from position group to position group is because, like all coaches at the NFL level, they understand football. If you're good enough to coach an NFL positional group, you can pretty much coach any positional group. All of these guys know all the fundamentals. They all know how to watch tape. They all know the system frontwards and backwards. It comes down to how well they can communicate and teach.

Judge and Patricia worked their way up from assistants in NE to having greater responsibility. Clearly Bill was pleased with their coaching, communication, and teaching. Clearly they understand football. And clearly Bill wanted them back. There isn't some weird barrier that's going to prevent Judge and Patricia from coaching QBs, OL, or installing a game plan. They understand how to coach. They know the system. They know the positional fundamentals. They also have pretty good players to coach. There's zero reason to expect them to fail. If you expect them to fail, I'd love to know why. Yes, Judge and Patricia were unsuccessful head coaches; they also had really sh*tty rosters. But being a HC is much different from being a positional coach or calling plays. They were successful assistants in the past; there;s zero reason to believe they won't be successful assistants again with good players to coach.

Greg Bedard is a hack and a piece of sh*t who is making a buck on grievance media. There's a subset of the population who thrives on negativity, and Bedard knows he can capitalize on it. Borges, Shank, Bedard - all these assh*les are peddling negativity content for people who are predispositioned to be outraged by things that don't matter. /fin
A wall of text that basically boils down to "Bill thought it was the right move, so it's the right move". Well, let me present you the hypothesis that Bill resorted to some old pals to fill holes he otherwise wouldn't have qualified people to occupy because of the crazy amount of brain drain the organization has gone through, and having Matt Patricia and Joe Judge taking care of the offense for a 2nd year QB is really far from the scenario he wanted, but it was the best he could come up with in these circumstances. Doesn't that sound a lot more plausible than believing those two are as qualified to coach on that side of the ball as anyone else because "coaching is coaching" or something?

I want to see some examples of older coaches transitioning from one side of the ball to the other as coordinators and having success. Off the top of my head I can think of Juan Castillo, who was a career OL coach/offensive assistant and was a disaster as DC for the Eagles (immediately returning to the offensive side of the ball following that failed stint).

It's not the end of the world, but it's a strange situation and people are understandably concerned, unless you think coaching doesn't matter in the NFL, or that Bill can just plug anyone in there and it'll be fine. I don't want Bill to have more on his plate at 70 years old than he arguably has ever had. He's the greatest coach to ever walk this planet, he's also human.
 

Eddie Jurak

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It's not the end of the world, but it's a strange situation and people are understandably concerned, unless you think coaching doesn't matter in the NFL, or that Bill can just plug anyone in there and it'll be fine. I don't want Bill to have more on his plate at 70 years old than he arguably has ever had. He's the greatest coach to ever walk this planet, he's also human.
Exactly. It is different enough from the NFL norm to raise eyebrows. That doesn't automatically mean it is bad, but we cannot know how well it will work until we see it. Plenty of reason for concern but none for panic.
 

ZMart100

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It doesn't sound more plausible to me. Coaching is coaching seems more plausible. A defensive coach needs to understand what an offense is doing. An offensive coach needs to understand what a defense is doing. Instead of watching the same offense against a bunch of defenses now you watch the same defense against a bunch of offenses. You still have to understand what both sides of the ball are doing on any given play. What's lost switching from one side to the other?
 

tims4wins

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I can't begin to count the number of complaints tied to McDaniels offensive coaching calls over the last few years. Maybe let's just see how, like, the games actually play out...
QFT. Go through the Game Goat threads from all the losses dating back to 2012. I bet you Josh is listed in damn near every one.
 

BaseballJones

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It goes without saying that Belichick is not infallible.

That being said, the sheer offense that Bedard and a lot of these other guys take when Belichick does something different than the expected norm is pretty telling, I think. Their constant refrain is "Arrogance!" and "Hubris!" when BB does anything that the writers don't specify. It's weird.
Yeah the "arrogance" and "hubris" line is so overtired. I mean, I'm sure BB has some arrogance to him. So did Parcells. And Gibbs. And Shanahan. And Lombardi. And Reid. And Payton. And McVeigh - they all think their way is the best way for them to do business, because if they didn't think it was the best way, they'd change into a different way, because they'd think that THAT way was the best way - which they'd then be doing.

BB without Brady - if you take away the one year in Cleveland when the ownership was undermining the entire franchise - is 62-55 (.530):

Cle (1991-94): 31-33
NE (2008): 11-5
NE (2016): 3-1
NE (2020): 7-9
NE (2021): 10-7

I mean, he's obviously good at what he does. He's not perfect. But he's really good.
 

Van Everyman

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@EL Jeffe has if. Again, I think Bill prefers to coach with guys he trusts over subject matter experts at this stage of his career. I also think this may be him putting experienced guys in charge of some of the younger guys. I’m not sure it’s that much more complicated than that.
 

BaseballJones

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It doesn't sound more plausible to me. Coaching is coaching seems more plausible. A defensive coach needs to understand what an offense is doing. An offensive coach needs to understand what a defense is doing. Instead of watching the same offense against a bunch of defenses now you watch the same defense against a bunch of offenses. You still have to understand what both sides of the ball are doing on any given play. What's lost switching from one side to the other?
Well guys can definitely be experts at one position compared to another. It's like coaching big men in basketball - yeah you have to know what the guards are doing, so you need to know BASKETBALL, but the specific requirements of bigs are a little different than for guards.

In the NFL, if you're a secondary coach, you need to know what the whole offense is doing, including the O-line, but you might not be too well-versed in very specific things like hand placement on this kind of reach block or whatever.

So yeah, NFL coaches need to know all of football, but they can still be more expert at one position than another.
 

rodderick

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@EL Jeffe has if. Again, I think Bill prefers to coach with guys he trusts over subject matter experts at this stage of his career. I also think this may be him putting experienced guys in charge of some of the younger guys. I’m not sure it’s that much more complicated than that.
The fact that the alternative to having Judge and Patricia could be plugging in inexperienced guys Bill doesn't believe to be ready to carry that burden yet just means the solution he came up with is the best he could conceive given the circumstances and not necessarily a good one.

If Josh doesn't poach Mick Lombardi and we go into this season with him as QB coach and de facto OC, Joe Judge looking over WRs and Patricia as OL coach there wouldn't be 3% of this amount of consternation. The lack of continuity plus the lack of experience of two older coaches on that side of the ball is raising concern, and the only reason I'm not panicking over it is Bill, but it's a level of uncertainty on offense this team has never gone through during his tenure as HC.
 

mcpickl

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The fact that the alternative to having Judge and Patricia could be plugging in inexperienced guys Bill doesn't believe to be ready to carry that burden yet just means the solution he came up with is the best he could conceive given the circumstances and not necessarily a good one.

If Josh doesn't poach Mick Lombardi and we go into this season with him as QB coach and de facto OC, Joe Judge looking over WRs and Patricia as OL coach there wouldn't be 3% of this amount of consternation. The lack of continuity plus the lack of experience of two older coaches on that side of the ball is raising concern, and the only reason I'm not panicking over it is Bill, but it's a level of uncertainty on offense this team has never gone through during his tenure as HC.
I think this is way off.

I'd guess there would be around 99% of the consternation. Maybe 100%.

I can't remember anyone ever having a positive thing to say about Mick Lombardi. Then he leaves, and he's part of the dreaded "brain drain". I might be low on 100%. There might be even more consternation from Felger Nation if he were still here since he'd be lumped in as just Belichick promoting his friends kids.

And those same people would be complaining just as much about Judge/Patricia either way.
 

Captaincoop

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I don't know if Bedard is right or wrong, but he's adamant that the consternation is coming from veteran players. Obviously that stuff was wrong when we heard it from Tom Jackson in 2003. That doesn't mean it will be wrong forever.

Anyway, his sources may be wrong, and hopefully they are. But at this point in the year I'd rather be hearing that everything is peaches and cream.
 

Hatcher Steals Home

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I can't remember anyone ever having a positive thing to say about Mick Lombardi. Then he leaves, and he's part of the dreaded "brain drain". I might be low on 100%. There might be even more consternation from Felger Nation if he were still here since he'd be lumped in as just Belichick promoting his friends kids.

And those same people would be complaining just as much about Judge/Patricia either way.
I’m not sure this is true. While there is griping about nepotism, we are not hearing too much about Matt Groh for instance - despite robust criticism of the draft, I haven’t seen much attributing the “reaches” to the fact that personnel is overseen by Al’s boy.

All that to say, I’m also not so sure we would be hearing as much griping (Bedard, et al) if the Patriots had simply named Haley the OC. It seems most of the griping is indeed some combination of “but who is calling the plays!?” and “we’ll Judge and Patricia are not offensive minds.”
 

mcpickl

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I’m not sure this is true. While there is griping about nepotism, we are not hearing too much about Matt Groh for instance - despite robust criticism of the draft, I haven’t seen much attributing the “reaches” to the fact that personnel is overseen by Al’s boy.

All that to say, I’m also not so sure we would be hearing as much griping (Bedard, et al) if the Patriots had simply named Haley the OC. It seems most of the griping is indeed some combination of “but who is calling the plays!?” and “we’ll Judge and Patricia are not offensive minds.”
You're a better person than me then, to be able to avoid the stations Felger has been able to poison.

I hear a lot of griping about Al's boy on the Sports Hub and CSNNE.

And I agree, there would be less griping about who is calling the plays!? if they brought in an experienced OC, because fans/media seem to think the only choice for an OC is a previous OC. But I was responding to the idea there would be less griping if Mick Lombardi was elevated to OC. He also has no experience, therefore, griping would still commence.
 

BaseballJones

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If the Pats' offense looks great, there will be no griping. If they struggle, there will be griping. No matter who is the OC or who is calling plays.
 

EL Jeffe

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A wall of text that basically boils down to "Bill thought it was the right move, so it's the right move". Well, let me present you the hypothesis that Bill resorted to some old pals to fill holes he otherwise wouldn't have qualified people to occupy because of the crazy amount of brain drain the organization has gone through, and having Matt Patricia and Joe Judge taking care of the offense for a 2nd year QB is really far from the scenario he wanted, but it was the best he could come up with in these circumstances. Doesn't that sound a lot more plausible than believing those two are as qualified to coach on that side of the ball as anyone else because "coaching is coaching" or something?

I want to see some examples of older coaches transitioning from one side of the ball to the other as coordinators and having success. Off the top of my head I can think of Juan Castillo, who was a career OL coach/offensive assistant and was a disaster as DC for the Eagles (immediately returning to the offensive side of the ball following that failed stint).

It's not the end of the world, but it's a strange situation and people are understandably concerned, unless you think coaching doesn't matter in the NFL, or that Bill can just plug anyone in there and it'll be fine. I don't want Bill to have more on his plate at 70 years old than he arguably has ever had. He's the greatest coach to ever walk this planet, he's also human.
Counterpoint: this is a wall of text making complaints because of...reasons!

  • Matt Patricia literally coached the OL earlier in his NE career. Like, it's a thing he did and was paid to do. Do you need me to provide you with a list of coaches who have coached a position, and then later coached that same position? Because if so, Imma need to block off some time because that's a long ass list. Like, are we worried Matt Patricia is going to forget how to coach OL? Some sort of coaching amnesia? And even if he did, Billy Yates is here as an OL assistant, so I think things are gonna be okay.
  • Joe Judge literally coached WR here in 2019. Again, if you need me to provide a list of coaches who coached WR, and then went on to later coach QBs, well, I hate to break it to you, but that's also quite a list.
  • Brain Drain: NE allowed Lombardi, Bricillo, and Hardegree's contracts to expire. If they wanted to keep them, they could have extended their contracts. And as for Bill having too much on his plate, it hasn't occurred to you that hiring two recent HCs as positional coaches that they're overqualified for might help with his plate management? The coaching was unusually sloppy last season, with wasted time outs, guys not lined up correctly, too many or too few players being out on the field, etc.. Patricia and Judge are considered to be very detail oriented coaches. I expect the 2022 coaching to be better than the 2021 coaching. But we'll see.
  • "At the end of the day, when you’re on defense, you’re scouting, you break down offenses all day,” he said. “So, you kind of have an idea — I’m a secondary coach, so I watched wideouts every single day — of splits, different techniques versus press, off, certain ways to get out of breaks, catching the ball, whether it’s wide open or in traffic. I don’t think it will be a big transition. Coaching football is coaching football," Ross Douglas, actual NFL coach. I don't know, I'm gonna go with his opinion on coaching different positions and sides of the ball over Internet Guy's opinion.
Look, I don't think Bill walks on water. I think he can be very stubborn and overly conservative with how me manages end of half situations and 4th downs. He misread the WR FA market in 2021 and overpaid Agholor. He paid Jonnu like an elite TE when he'd never been more than just an okay TE. There's any number of things that Bill has f*cked up, and will continue to f*ck up. He's also the best coach in the history of the NFL. His coaching hires have been pretty spot on. To think he didn't have a plan and was simply caught with his pants down when most of his offensive staff's contracts were allowed to expire at the same time doesn't pass any smell test based on his team building history.

If people want to be concerned, go knock yourselves out. Joe Judge and Matt Patricia being positional coaches doesn't strike me as things people should be concerned about, but have at it.
 

rodderick

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Counterpoint: this is a wall of text making complaints because of...reasons!

  • Matt Patricia literally coached the OL earlier in his NE career. Like, it's a thing he did and was paid to do. Do you need me to provide you with a list of coaches who have coached a position, and then later coached that same position? Because if so, Imma need to block off some time because that's a long ass list. Like, are we worried Matt Patricia is going to forget how to coach OL? Some sort of coaching amnesia? And even if he did, Billy Yates is here as an OL assistant, so I think things are gonna be okay.
  • Joe Judge literally coached WR here in 2019. Again, if you need me to provide a list of coaches who coached WR, and then went on to later coach QBs, well, I hate to break it to you, but that's also quite a list.
  • Brain Drain: NE allowed Lombardi, Bricillo, and Hardegree's contracts to expire. If they wanted to keep them, they could have extended their contracts. And as for Bill having too much on his plate, it hasn't occurred to you that hiring two recent HCs as positional coaches that they're overqualified for might help with his plate management? The coaching was unusually sloppy last season, with wasted time outs, guys not lined up correctly, too many or too few players being out on the field, etc.. Patricia and Judge are considered to be very detail oriented coaches. I expect the 2022 coaching to be better than the 2021 coaching. But we'll see.
  • "At the end of the day, when you’re on defense, you’re scouting, you break down offenses all day,” he said. “So, you kind of have an idea — I’m a secondary coach, so I watched wideouts every single day — of splits, different techniques versus press, off, certain ways to get out of breaks, catching the ball, whether it’s wide open or in traffic. I don’t think it will be a big transition. Coaching football is coaching football," Ross Douglas, actual NFL coach. I don't know, I'm gonna go with his opinion on coaching different positions and sides of the ball over Internet Guy's opinion.
Look, I don't think Bill walks on water. I think he can be very stubborn and overly conservative with how me manages end of half situations and 4th downs. He misread the WR FA market in 2021 and overpaid Agholor. He paid Jonnu like an elite TE when he'd never been more than just an okay TE. There's any number of things that Bill has f*cked up, and will continue to f*ck up. He's also the best coach in the history of the NFL. His coaching hires have been pretty spot on. To think he didn't have a plan and was simply caught with his pants down when most of his offensive staff's contracts were allowed to expire at the same time doesn't pass any smell test based on his team building history.

If people want to be concerned, go knock yourselves out. Joe Judge and Matt Patricia being positional coaches doesn't strike me as things people should be concerned about, but have at it.
I've said explicitly I wouldn't mind them being positional coaches as long as they had an actual or de facto OC with experience both in the system and on that side of the ball. But it's not really the case, is it? But if you're right and Bill Belichick specifically wanted to be in this situation, i.e. no actual OC and Matt Patricia and Joe Judge for all intents and purposes being in charge of the offense, then I'd say your scenario is more indicative of him having lost his fastball. If this is what he willingly built towards, I wholeheartedly question his judgement. I don't think that's what happened, so I still trust Bill.
 

Salva135

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I think it's worth noting that both of these guys were essentially humiliated out of their previous attempts at head coaching, and are likely coming back to BB hat-in-hand like McDaniels did after the Broncos gig. This could make them more inspired to perform differently, or it could simply be an advantage BB sees in more malleable underlings and willing to play "Boar on the Floor" if he wishes (hope someone gets that reference). Either way, it's a huge question mark.

This is going to be an interesting season. All of BB's draft and coaching personnel quirks are accepted around here as long as they lead to wins. But this is the most vulnerable this team has been since BB took over, IMO. This is the least talented team in the AFC East on paper, and it's being led by a sophomore QB who hit his rookie wall and is about to have a new voice in his ear. The best team in the league is arguably in this division and the gap between the Pats and that team is almost as large as it was in the opposite direction during the Brady years. If this team squeaks out a 5-7 win, 3rd or even 4th place finish, this will get VERY ugly.
 

Shaky Walton

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From the tenor of the many posts above, I think the "In Bill I Trust" thought process is a lot of what underlies many of our views here.

That is not to suggest, in any way, that anyone posting here is being a lemming and checking his or her brain at the door. What I mean is that I think people are reasonably saying that Bill has been wildly successful, we only know what we know about what is actually happening now or will happen later, which is only a part of the actual story, there are many ways to accomplish the objectives and Bill has in fact assembled a staff with talented voices. And I'm sure there is a lot more to it for many people.

For me, the keys are that the players have clear lines of authority and that the coaches be put in a position to lead effectively. If both things are true, then labels don't matter and Bill has indeed earned a lot of our trust.

I will continue to have a level of concern about this because having clearly defined coordinators is what the vast majority of HCs at the NFL level have done since I first started paying attention (the early 70s) and it's what Bill Belichick did for most of his time in NE. I know that things change and evolve, but I tend to not like changing what doesn't seem to need changing. And it does make intuitive sense to me that having defined lines of responsibility and power is a benefit to the players and is conducive to winning.

Make no mistake, this is not about Joe Fan knowing who does what. To the contrary, I love the fact that Bill controls the narrative, perpetually annoys the media, many of whom are whiny, and is guided only by what he thinks will contribute to winning. And speaking of intuitive sense, it makes exactly that to me that Bill would not let opposing teams have a clear view into what is happening behind doors in Foxboro, which I assume explains a lot of how Bill operates.

And so while I'm happily a member of the "In Bill I Trust" crowd (as qualified and discussed above), I'd like to know the answers to my few concerns. Not that I have any expectation that I will, or feeling that I am entitled, to be told. But I'm a fan, so I will continue to worry a bit about this.

And whether Bergeron will be back....

And whether Smart and Rob Williams will play tonight...

And whether the Sox will name an effective closer....

And whether Devers and Xander will be kept....

And a lot of other things that I can't control and about which my worrying has absolutely no impact on anyone!
 

tims4wins

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Cross-posting from the offense thread, but I don't remember Steve Belichick and Mayo's roles being called out as this clear cut last year?

With regard to OC, it's really pretty confusing. Obviously BB has known for several years that eventually, if he didn't retire, McDaniels was likely to leave at some point. They haven't really had an OC in waiting since Schlupinsky left (I assume he would have been the natural heir to Josh). Patricia was employed by the Pats last year in a more advisory / jack of all trades capacity, while Judge was employed by the Giants. I don't mean to imply that BB was caught with his pants down, but where exactly was the foresight? As others have mentioned, having Judge / Patricia tag team on OC doesn't seem like it would have been Plan A. I trust in what BB does, and I think they'll be fine this year; that said, my bigger concern is having a steady voice in Mac's ear for the long term.

View: https://twitter.com/PhilAPerry/status/1528790638317162499?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1528790638317162499%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=
 

Shaky Walton

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Cross-posting from the offense thread, but I don't remember Steve Belichick and Mayo's roles being called out as this clear cut last year?
An article by Jim McBride in the Boston Globe on May 16 made the claim that Steve called the plays and Jerod ran defensive team meetings. I had never seen or heard anything that clear before reading that. And whether it's true is unknown.

https://www.bostonglobe.com/2022/05/16/sports/though-joe-judge-has-never-coached-quarterbacks-he-will-work-with-mac-jones/

On the defensive side, things likely will look the same as last season, when linebacker coaches Steve Belichick (inside) and Jerod Mayo (outside) split defensive coordinator duties. Steve Belichick called the plays and Mayo ran team meetings.
 

Mystic Merlin

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Super Nomario

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I will continue to have a level of concern about this because having clearly defined coordinators is what the vast majority of HCs at the NFL level have done since I first started paying attention (the early 70s) and it's what Bill Belichick did for most of his time in NE. I know that things change and evolve, but I tend to not like changing what doesn't seem to need changing.
Things did need to change, because the guys they had left. Patricia left after 2017 and then Flores left after 2018; keeping them wasn't really an option. They did keep McDaniels as long as humanly possible but now he's gone, too. So then it becomes a question of whether you seek an established OC outside the org or build from guys who know the system. But doing what they had been doing was not on the table.

With regard to OC, it's really pretty confusing. Obviously BB has known for several years that eventually, if he didn't retire, McDaniels was likely to leave at some point. They haven't really had an OC in waiting since Schlupinsky left (I assume he would have been the natural heir to Josh). Patricia was employed by the Pats last year in a more advisory / jack of all trades capacity, while Judge was employed by the Giants. I don't mean to imply that BB was caught with his pants down, but where exactly was the foresight? As others have mentioned, having Judge / Patricia tag team on OC doesn't seem like it would have been Plan A. I trust in what BB does, and I think they'll be fine this year; that said, my bigger concern is having a steady voice in Mac's ear for the long term.
I think this is fair to an extent but unfair in other ways. McDaniels served as the QB coach in addition to the OC, so having a guy in that "stepping stone" QB coach role wasn't on the table, nor apparently was promoting from within to that position to prevent a guy from leaving. So that made it somewhat hard to build a bench. But beyond that, I think a lot of "OCs in waiting" just got tired of waiting for Josh to take another gig. Aside from Schuplinski, you had Chad O'Shea, Brian Daboll, and Jeff Fisch, who all might have / would have been OC candidates had the timing been different, but they got sick of waiting and got promotions elsewhere.
 

tims4wins

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I think this is fair to an extent but unfair in other ways. McDaniels served as the QB coach in addition to the OC, so having a guy in that "stepping stone" QB coach role wasn't on the table, nor apparently was promoting from within to that position to prevent a guy from leaving. So that made it somewhat hard to build a bench. But beyond that, I think a lot of "OCs in waiting" just got tired of waiting for Josh to take another gig. Aside from Schuplinski, you had Chad O'Shea, Brian Daboll, and Jeff Fisch, who all might have / would have been OC candidates had the timing been different, but they got sick of waiting and got promotions elsewhere.
That's fair on guys not being willing to wait, especially after McDaniels turned down the Colts gig in 2017
 

EL Jeffe

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I've said explicitly I wouldn't mind them being positional coaches as long as they had an actual or de facto OC with experience both in the system and on that side of the ball. But it's not really the case, is it? But if you're right and Bill Belichick specifically wanted to be in this situation, i.e. no actual OC and Matt Patricia and Joe Judge for all intents and purposes being in charge of the offense, then I'd say your scenario is more indicative of him having lost his fastball. If this is what he willingly built towards, I wholeheartedly question his judgement. I don't think that's what happened, so I still trust Bill.
I mean, that's mostly fair. I'd push back on the notion that Bill specifically wanted to be in this situation. I'm sure he would have loved to have kept Josh as OC for perpetuity. Had Josh stayed, I imagine Bricillo, Lombardi, and Hardegree all probably would have stayed as well. But the fact that they blocked Caley from leaving, but by all reporting were fine with the other three moving on, leads me to believe Bill thinks Judge and Patricia are simply better coaches than the three that left.

The OC responsibilities are going to be a collaborative process, perhaps more so than in past years. We know from previous documentaries that the game planning and system installation have been group efforts anyhow. Someone will be calling plays on game day and we don't know who that will be just yet. I guess if I had a concern in all this, it would be from the gameday play calling because there's an art & science to that and I don't believe any of Judge, Patricia, or Caley have called offensive plays during a game. But I'm also not overly worried about it either. There's first time offensive play callers every year and people figure it out. Having good players and a really smart QB helps. I think all 3 of Judge, Patricia, and Caley understand the playbook, the team's strengths, and how to manage a game. I'm sure whoever ends up calling plays will be prepared. It's not like Bill is in DGAF mode and simply stopped caring about getting the team (and coaches) ready to play.
 

tims4wins

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As you all know, I am one of the biggest BB fanboys out there. He's been my avatar forever. I unconditionally love the man. I do not bump this thread lightly.

I came to the conclusion last night in the first half that I think both sides would be better off if they decided to mutually part ways after the season.

There has not been any progress on either side of the ball. They still can't stop Buffalo (or beat Tua, but that's another topic). The offense is the same, or worse. The defense beats up on crappy offenses and is a sieve to good offenses (and some crappy offenses like Chicago).

Moreover, they continue to make a TON of little mistakes that add up. The hallmark of BB teams forever is that they would let other teams make these mistakes. That is no longer the case. The Patriots are shooting themselves in the foot.

And finally, the coaching staff. I tried to ignore the reports all spring and summer about Patricia and Judge. I also wanted to give Steve the benefit of the doubt. But it's not working. None of it. And despite some good moments, the special teams haven't covered themselves in glory.

I can't pretend to know what is best for the franchise moving forward. But for the first time since early September 2001, I find myself wondering if the Pats would be better off moving on.
 

jsinger121

@jsinger121
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Jul 25, 2005
17,763
They would be best moving on IMO as well. They can't let BB stay on for a personal record when this franchise has never been about personal records in the last 20 years. The coaching staff is an utter disaster along with the personnel moves. In order to maybe salvage Mac Jones who is probably broken for good now they need an entirely different coaching staff. I'm not sure Kraft has the balls to do it but he shouldn't be the Rooney's who allowed Chuck Noll to coach until 1991 (12 years after the Steelers 4th title).
 

8slim

has trust issues
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Disagree. Bill is still an excellent head coach. I really believe that. I’m not sure most current coaches would even be 6-6 with this roster. But to that point, he’s been a mediocre GM, and he’s surrounded himself with an inferior staff, largely on offense.
 

johnmd20

mad dog
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Bill is a great coach but the Patricia thing is a travesty. Patricia was a bad defensive coordinator and a much worse head coach, so, hell,, let’s give him the offense. What could go wrong?

Just a baffling decision. It set the team up to fail. And to be clear, this offense is horrendous. It has failed spectacularly.
 

Ed Hillel

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What’s wrong with Steve and the defense? You want a shutout of elite offenses? That’s a good unit, I’ll take it. Choosing Patricia and Judge for the offense was really the wtf move. He said blame him, so ok he’s blamed. I wouldn’t fire him (no way), but I’d tell him he needs to hire a real OC or at least try something new. I doubt he’ll need much prodding tbh, but if he insists to bring back this same crew ok he can go I guess.
 

Bowhemian

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Nov 10, 2015
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As you all know, I am one of the biggest BB fanboys out there. He's been my avatar forever. I unconditionally love the man. I do not bump this thread lightly.

I came to the conclusion last night in the first half that I think both sides would be better off if they decided to mutually part ways after the season.

There has not been any progress on either side of the ball. They still can't stop Buffalo (or beat Tua, but that's another topic). The offense is the same, or worse. The defense beats up on crappy offenses and is a sieve to good offenses (and some crappy offenses like Chicago).

Moreover, they continue to make a TON of little mistakes that add up. The hallmark of BB teams forever is that they would let other teams make these mistakes. That is no longer the case. The Patriots are shooting themselves in the foot.

And finally, the coaching staff. I tried to ignore the reports all spring and summer about Patricia and Judge. I also wanted to give Steve the benefit of the doubt. But it's not working. None of it. And despite some good moments, the special teams haven't covered themselves in glory.

I can't pretend to know what is best for the franchise moving forward. But for the first time since early September 2001, I find myself wondering if the Pats would be better off moving on.
I 100% agree with this entire post. I had the exact same thoughts watching the second half.
And I hate to even think it.
 

tims4wins

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What’s wrong with Steve and the defense? You want a shutout of elite offenses? That’s a good unit, I’ll take it. Choosing Patricia and Judge for the offense was really the wtf move. He said blame him, so ok he’s blamed. I wouldn’t fire him (no way), but I’d tell him he needs to hire a real OC or at least try something new. I doubt he’ll need much prodding tbh, but if he insists to bring back this same crew ok he can go I guess.
The defense has been a paper tiger dating back to 2019. Shutout? No. The Bills went 23 straight drives without punting against the Pats. They played ok after the first 3 drives. But with this offense, that was enough for it to already be ballgame.

The defense wasn't very good against Minnesota. It sucked out loud against Chicago. Wasn't good against Baltimore, or Miami in the opener. It's been just as much as a culprit as the offense has in the losses.
 

Ed Hillel

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The defense has been a paper tiger dating back to 2019. Shutout? No. The Bills went 23 straight drives without punting against the Pats. They played ok after the first 3 drives. But with this offense, that was enough for it to already be ballgame.

The defense wasn't very good against Minnesota. It sucked out loud against Chicago. Wasn't good against Baltimore, or Miami in the opener. It's been just as much as a culprit as the offense has in the losses.
You can’t cherry pick games against elite offenses. Overall the unit is good, and it’s tough for them to win games on their own when the offense is on the field for 3-6 plays per drive. That defense was competitive last night, nothing really came easy for Buffalo, they had to earn it. The offense was…not competitive. The offense makes the defense look worse at times, and I’m sure the mental aspect of knowing the offense can’t do shit becomes a grind as well.
 

Remagellan

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The defense has been a paper tiger dating back to 2019. Shutout? No. The Bills went 23 straight drives without punting against the Pats. They played ok after the first 3 drives. But with this offense, that was enough for it to already be ballgame.

The defense wasn't very good against Minnesota. It sucked out loud against Chicago. Wasn't good against Baltimore, or Miami in the opener. It's been just as much as a culprit as the offense has in the losses.
Absolutely agree with this. And it probably wouldn't have mattered, but honestly, why try an onsides kick if you're not going to use your three timeouts instead of letting the Bills run out the last two minutes of the game? Either you're competing until the final whistle or you're not.
 

tims4wins

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You can’t cherry pick games against elite offenses. Overall the unit is good, and it’s tough for them to win games on their own when the offense is on the field for 3-6 plays per drive. That defense was competitive last night, nothing really came easy for Buffalo, they had to earn it. The offense was…not competitive. The offense makes the defense look worse at times.
Fully, FULLY agree that the offense makes the defense look worse at times.

I don't think I'm cherry picking though. When they play good offenses, they don't play good defense. The Jets and Colts and Steelers are not good offensive teams. Cleveland is not a good offensive team. The Lions are ok, I guess.

Is this really a controversial take?
 

lexrageorge

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Team is utterly mediocre. Offense is below average; defense is probably better than average, but cannot do the job alone against better offenses when it has zero help from its own offense.

Every single NFL franchise has gone through similar periods of mediocrity (or worse) starting with the Pats miraculous run in 2001. They desperately needed a home run in the draft. The last couple of drafts have at least produced some singles and doubles, but the team's personnel still does not come close to stacking up to that of the league's top 10 teams. That right there is the #1 problem, and the #2 problem is not even close to Route 1.
 

Ed Hillel

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Fully, FULLY agree that the offense makes the defense look worse at times.

I don't think I'm cherry picking though. When they play good offenses, they don't play good defense. The Jets and Colts and Steelers are not good offensive teams. Cleveland is not a good offensive team. The Lions are ok, I guess.

Is this really a controversial take?
What is the take? That the defense is bad and worth firing a coach over? That Steve isn’t working out? I’d say both of those are controversial, yes.

The offense there is no controversy.
 

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
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Detroit ranks #8 in both points scored and yards gained. It’s a really good offense.

And wouldn’t it most likely be true for pretty much every defense that on the whole, they’re going to struggle more against good offenses, and feast on bad offenses?

Even all time elite defenses have had their struggles against good offensive teams. The 85 Bears gave up 38 to Marino and the Dolphins, just as one example off the top of my head.
 

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
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Oct 1, 2015
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Team is utterly mediocre. Offense is below average; defense is probably better than average, but cannot do the job alone against better offenses when it has zero help from its own offense.

Every single NFL franchise has gone through similar periods of mediocrity (or worse) starting with the Pats miraculous run in 2001. They desperately needed a home run in the draft. The last couple of drafts have at least produced some singles and doubles, but the team's personnel still does not come close to stacking up to that of the league's top 10 teams. That right there is the #1 problem, and the #2 problem is not even close to Route 1.
Rebuilding takes time. It can be accelerated with an elite QB.

If Justin Herbert was this team’s QB instead of Mac, where would they be right now? Serious question.
 

j44thor

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2022 is done they need to start planning for 2023 which is going to be a pivotal year for the franchise because they have a lot of cap space and will have likely a top 18 draft pick in a very good draft at least for the first couple rounds.
I'm not confident in Bill the GM making all the decisions himself after his last spending spree netted Judon and a pile of crap. It is clear he needs to overhaul the offensive coaching tree. Matty P sucked out loud as HC in DET and Joe Judge was somehow worse as HC in NY. They need to go no questions asked.

I think Kraft needs to have a tough convo with Bill and explain he either brings in some outside talent to the coaching staff or perhaps it is time to part ways.
I'd rather have a fresh start with unknowns than run back a great head coach with well below replacement level assistant coaches on offense.
 

BaseballJones

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And on the point of rebuilding… take the Eagles. The 2017 team wins the Super Bowl following a 13-3 season. This year they’re elite at 10-1. Between those two seasons they went:

9-7
9-7
4-11-1
9-7

Talk about mediocre, with a catastrophe thrown in there.

So their rebuild took five years to go from one great team to the next.

We are in year 3 of the Pats rebuild. Going by the Eagles model, we still have two more years to go to be elite again.

Not sure we will get there but still….. patience is needed. Lots and lots of patience. This is how normal NFL teams do things. We were SOOOO spoiled for 20 years.
 

tims4wins

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What is the take? That the defense is bad and worth firing a coach over? That Steve isn’t working out? I’d say both of those are controversial, yes.

The offense there is no controversy.
The take is that the defense looks better on paper when you average together the season but does not have enough elite talent to slow down good offenses. I admit that I have no idea if any of this falls on Steve. But it does fall on BB the GM.

The D is clearly less of a problem than the offense.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

Throw Momma From the Train
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BJ, you're leaving out that the Eagles fired their SB-winning HC and both their QBs in the midst of that collapse and rebuild. Cleaned out everyone.

Practically no team tolerates a collapse from heights into mediocrity without making huge changes.

The Pats drafted the guy who was supposed to be their next franchise QB and he's simply not. Patience isn't what's needed, avoiding the sunk cost fallacy is what's needed.
 

lexrageorge

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Rebuilding takes time. It can be accelerated with an elite QB.

If Justin Herbert was this team’s QB instead of Mac, where would they be right now? Serious question.
I personally think the OL is one of the worst units in the league, and it is complemented by a below mediocre set of skill (non-RB) position players. I know people will disagree; fine. I am admittedly not using DVOA or other stats when making that judgment. So not even a Herbert is going to help them all that much. They're asking a lot of a 2nd year QB, IMO.

In ESPN's Top 25 Players under 25, Pats did not even earn one of the 13 honorable mention (Rham probably should have, but that's besides the point). That's a real problem given that the NFL is a young man's game (aside from the QB and PK positions). There's a reason that Judon fades down the stretch; much like Jamie Collins used to do.

They probably should replace the offensive coaching staff in the off season; I just don't see that as a panacea.
 

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
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Oct 1, 2015
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@Smiling Joe Hesketh

Well the Pats changed out QBs and much of the coaching staff. Belichick remains of course. Is that what you’d prefer to do, move on from BB? That’s not a snarky question, it’s real. I mean at some point he will no longer be coaching the Patriots. Or anyone for that matter. Do you think it’s time for him to go?

There’s nothing wrong with saying yes if that’s what you believe. Syracuse desperately needs Boeheim to go and he’s been a legendary coach forever. But it’s time. Actually it’s way past time but still.
 

cornwalls@6

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2022 is done they need to start planning for 2023 which is going to be a pivotal year for the franchise because they have a lot of cap space and will have likely a top 18 draft pick in a very good draft at least for the first couple rounds.
I'm not confident in Bill the GM making all the decisions himself after his last spending spree netted Judon and a pile of crap. It is clear he needs to overhaul the offensive coaching tree. Matty P sucked out loud as HC in DET and Joe Judge was somehow worse as HC in NY. They need to go no questions asked.

I think Kraft needs to have a tough convo with Bill and explain he either brings in some outside talent to the coaching staff or perhaps it is time to part ways.
I'd rather have a fresh start with unknowns than run back a great head coach with well below replacement level assistant coaches on offense.
It is essential that he significantly upgrades the coaching staff next year. He's 70 now, and while I don't think that's an age where anybody needs to be put out to pasture, it is not uncommon at that point of life to have some diminishment in energy, in terms of stamina, both physical and cognitive. I think any coach of that age needs to be surrounded by a very good staff. He is not. If he's not willing to make a few changes, none of which would or should undermine his ultimate veto power/last word on football decisions, then I agree. Kraft may very well need to have a hard conversation with him. I reject the notion that failure as a head coach equates to not being a valuable assistant, but both Patricia and Judge should have been baby stepped into becoming offensive coaches. Not handed the reigns in year one.