Mac's Future

[McBride11]

I voted keep around and draft successor. Nothing is gained by cutting now or in the off season.
Happy to be proven wrong, but i do not want Williams.

What I really dont get, which may have been addressed in the plethora of Mac threads.

How are his mechanics so bad? For pretty much every sport … QB, NHL, NBA, pitcher, golf, tennis, badminton, etc… mechanics are paramount. Like a repeated motion, stepped into, turn / pivot core, follow thru.

Now, I suck at this and hence took a lot of multiple choice tests instead for my career.

But how are these basics lost? Mac played behind 2 current legit NFL starters. Im not watching his HS tape but he likely had to do something right, and sometimes still does.

But how is this lost. Like it seems one of the most important pieces of muscle memory to becoming an elite QB.

Even if Mac is not a NFL starter, many said he would be a solid backup. Which means he is top 60 in his profession worldwide?

How is this basic muscle memory lost? He isnt the first or last talented athlete to lose this, but Im really just in awe of how much basics are lost.

 

[Arroyoyo]

I voted keep around and draft successor. Nothing is gained by cutting now or in the off season.
Happy to be proven wrong, but i do not want Williams.

What I really dont get, which may have been addressed in the plethora of Mac threads.

How are his mechanics so bad? For pretty much every sport … QB, NHL, NBA, pitcher, golf, tennis, badminton, etc… mechanics are paramount. Like a repeated motion, stepped into, turn / pivot core, follow thru.

Now, I suck at this and hence took a lot of multiple choice tests instead for my career.

But how are these basics lost? Mac played behind 2 current legit NFL starters. Im not watching his HS tape but he likely had to do something right, and sometimes still does.

But how is this lost. Like it seems one of the most important pieces of muscle memory to becoming an elite QB.

Even if Mac is not a NFL starter, many said he would be a solid backup. Which means he is top 60 in his profession worldwide?

How is this basic muscle memory lost? He isnt the first or last talented athlete to lose this, but Im really just in awe of how much basics are lost.

Your mechanics don’t matter a whole lot when you’re throwing 1-2 seconds after the snap to wide open all-world receivers at Alabama. If you’re not being pressured, and your receivers are constantly open fast, it’s just a few steps back, ball out. Watch Mac’s Bama highlights and you see a ton of big plays that played out exactly as I just described above.

When you have to maneuver a pocket because of tight coverage and/or a heavy pass rush, that’s when real footwork and mechanics show. I think we overthink what’s broken about Mac sometimes: he gets flustered very, very easily. To my eye, that’s about it, and it all unravels from there. He’s seemingly thinking more about getting hit than getting the ball out. If that’s how you roll in the NFL you won’t last long as a quarterback.

There’s a reason so many elite college QB’s don’t make it in the NFL; in college the talent discrepancy team-to-team can be so wide that if your team is loaded, as an average player you can appear to be playing above your actual ability.

In the NFL the 2023 Denver Broncos can suddenly beat the Kansas City Chiefs one afternoon. In other words: even the worst teams are talented, so if you’re not, you’re not hiding your lack of talent for very long.

 

[Justthetippett]

I voted clean break in the off-season, either by cutting or trading (for whatever they can get). He's not the answer, and the reports coming out about his decision-making suggest he may not be a very helpful backup either. I'd like to see them draft whichever QB impresses them because at this point I can get more excited about potential (and live with some rocky games) as I can about any veteran they may bring in to bump them into marginal playoff contention.

 

[rodderick]

Your mechanics don’t matter a whole lot when you’re throwing 1-2 seconds after the snap to wide open all-world receivers at Alabama. If you’re not being pressured, and your receivers are constantly open fast, it’s just a few steps back, ball out. Watch Mac’s Bama highlights and you see a ton of big plays that played out exactly as I just described above.

When you have to maneuver a pocket because of tight coverage and/or a heavy pass rush, that’s when real footwork and mechanics show. I think we overthink what’s broken about Mac sometimes: he gets flustered very, very easily. To my eye, that’s about it, and it all unravels from there. He’s seemingly thinking more about getting hit than getting the ball out. If that’s how you roll in the NFL you won’t last long as a quarterback.

There’s a reason so many elite college QB’s don’t make it in the NFL; in college the talent discrepancy team-to-team can be so wide that if your team is loaded, as an average player you can appear to be playing above your actual ability.

In the NFL the 2023 Denver Broncos can suddenly beat the Kansas City Chiefs one afternoon. In other words: even the worst teams are talented, so if you’re not, you’re not hiding your lack of talent for very long.

He threw off his back foot for no reason all the time at Alabama too, it just seldom bit him in the ass for all the reasons you mentioned. SMU_Sox and JT O'Sullivan talked about it pre draft. The fade aways aren't new, they've just been exacerbated with the decline in protection/weapons and increased responsibilities within the offense. Aside from the whole not stepping into throws stuff, he had trouble resetting his feet and throwing while lined up towards the sidelines at Alabama as well, but it is notable that he managed to become worse mechanically with each year in the pros. It's not really the type of flaw that's hardest to fix either. But he never had the Burrow/Stroud type solid base even in college.

 

[Coachster]

Those of you saying he'll still be the starter in '24; that's the most depressing thing I can think of. He's awful. He's not going to get significantly better. The worst part is we'd have to watch him throw off his back foot and look at one read all the way down the field and make shitty decisions and all the other stupid things he does regularly no matter who the other offensive personnel might be. This is professional sports. People pay good money to watch these games. I'd be excited to watch Tannehill or Bridgewater or anybody with some modicum of NFL success. (Hell, I was hoping for Andy Dalton as a backup this season.) It's just excruciatingly hard to root for this team with him running the offense.

 

[Arroyoyo]

He threw off his back foot for no reason all the time at Alabama too, it just seldom bit him in the ass for all the reasons you mentioned. SMU_Sox and JT O'Sullivan talked about it pre draft. The fade aways aren't new, they've just been exacerbated with the decline in protection/weapons and increased responsibilities within the offense. Aside from the whole not stepping into throws stuff, he had trouble resetting his feet and throwing while lined up towards the sidelines at Alabama as well, but it is notable that he managed to become worse mechanically with each year in the pros. It's not really the type of flaw that's hardest to fix either. But he never had the Burrow/Stroud type solid base even in college.

Yeah looking back it really is all over his film. At the time I feel like I noticed but told myself, “he’s getting the ball out quick to the open guy.” It was too easy for him. He’s facing real adversity right now - which is what the NFL is all about and why we watch, we like to see people/teams overcome adversity - and he’s crumbling week after week.

I don’t think he’s a bad kid. He seems like a decent kid. He’s just not a very good professional football player.

 

[McBride11]

Your mechanics don’t matter a whole lot when you’re throwing 1-2 seconds after the snap to wide open all-world receivers at Alabama. If you’re not being pressured, and your receivers are constantly open fast, it’s just a few steps back, ball out. Watch Mac’s Bama highlights and you see a ton of big plays that played out exactly as I just described above.

When you have to maneuver a pocket because of tight coverage and/or a heavy pass rush, that’s when real footwork and mechanics show. I think we overthink what’s broken about Mac sometimes: he gets flustered very, very easily. To my eye, that’s about it, and it all unravels from there. He’s seemingly thinking more about getting hit than getting the ball out. If that’s how you roll in the NFL you won’t last long as a quarterback.

There’s a reason so many elite college QB’s don’t make it in the NFL; in college the talent discrepancy team-to-team can be so wide that if your team is loaded, as an average player you can appear to be playing above your actual ability.

In the NFL the 2023 Denver Broncos can suddenly beat the Kansas City Chiefs one afternoon. In other words: even the worst teams are talented, so if you’re not, you’re not hiding your lack of talent for very long.

no disagreement. And i think @rodderick echoes this.
i guess my question is, unless he went to Bama HS, how did this basic, fundamental function deteriorate.
most agree, he is not long term… concur.., but the loss in basics seems dramatic.
And i think the mac bashing is over the top! Just basics seem so off if youve achieved this level

 

[McBride11]

Yeah looking back it really is all over his film. At the time I feel like I noticed but told myself, “he’s getting the ball out quick to the open guy.” It was too easy for him. He’s facing real adversity right now - which is what the NFL is all about and why we watch, we like to see people/teams overcome adversity - and he’s crumbling week after week.

I don’t think he’s a bad kid. He seems like a decent kid. He’s just not a very good professional football player.

fake edit - but was this is HS? I guess if that poorly trained - why did Saban take him?? (I mean beyond qb3). Had to see some proper technique sometime id imagine

 

[Cellar-Door]

fake edit - but was this is HS? I guess if that poorly trained - why did Saban take him?? (I mean beyond qb3). Had to see some proper technique sometime id imagine

Basically every college QB has periods of just terrible footwork. Even in the NFL footwork and technique is a struggle for most guys, and the very best at it (Brady, Manning) spend years tweaking things, working on consistency etc. Part of the problem for Mac is he doesn't have the other things that let you get away with it...

For example.... Rodgers threw tons of fallaway back foot throws. But he has a strong, accurate arm and makes great decisions so he gets away with it. Even lesser QBs, last Thursday we were noting in the game thread that Levis made a lot of the same bad decisions/throws that Mac does. But Levis got away with a lot more because he has a cannon arm so it was less likely the DB got there to pick it.

 

[P'tucket rhymes with...]

no disagreement. And i think @rodderick echoes this.
i guess my question is, unless he went to Bama HS, how did this basic, fundamental function deteriorate.
most agree, he is not long term… concur.., but the loss in basics seems dramatic.
And i think the mac bashing is over the top! Just basics seem so off if youve achieved this level

I think the thrust of the other comments is that he hasn't really lost anything. He never really had those skills in the first place, and his circumstances kept him from being exposed. He's a McMansion built on a bad foundation.

 

[MuppetAsteriskTalk]

I think the thrust of the other comments is that he hasn't really lost anything. He never really had those skills in the first place, and his circumstances kept him from being exposed. He's a McMansion built on a bad foundation.

MacMansion

 

[Kenny F'ing Powers]

He threw off his back foot for no reason all the time at Alabama too, it just seldom bit him in the ass for all the reasons you mentioned. SMU_Sox and JT O'Sullivan talked about it pre draft. The fade aways aren't new, they've just been exacerbated with the decline in protection/weapons and increased responsibilities within the offense. Aside from the whole not stepping into throws stuff, he had trouble resetting his feet and throwing while lined up towards the sidelines at Alabama as well, but it is notable that he managed to become worse mechanically with each year in the pros. It's not really the type of flaw that's hardest to fix either. But he never had the Burrow/Stroud type solid base even in college.

This is the frustrating part to me.

When we see NFL players exhibiting poor fundamental traits and - after YEARS - they aren't rectified? It's either 100% on the player or 100% on the coaching.

And, shockingly, I blame the player.

We have enough history to know that Mac just can't process at a high level. If you go back and watch his 50 worst passes - and it's crazy to think that in 3 years you can easily find 50 HORRIBLE passes - a large chunk of those plays are preempted by passes just as bad that didn't have as bad of a result. Mac implodes. He snowballs.

This is NOT just a footwork problem. It's a Mac Jones problem. And, barring a drastic change to his mental processing/makeup, this is exactly what Mac Jones is as an NFL QB.

 

[cornwalls@6]

Option 2 for me. I see no meaningful benefit in bringing him back next year. Release him after the season, or get whatever bag of balls draft capital they can in a trade. Draft a QB, sign a serviceable veteran stop gap, and use the rest of their resources to address OL, WR, TE, and RB. I don’t think he has any long term future with this team, and frankly suspect his time anywhere in the NFL is getting shorter. Rip the band aide off.

 

[rodderick]

I just want to link to this JT O'Sullivan analysis of Mac Jones pre draft. Count how many of the criticisms he makes and flaws he points out are a big part of the reason for Mac's struggles in these past two years (not being willing to challenge windows, speeding up his process to get to the checkdown, skipping reads, footwork not putting him in position to throw with anticipation from a solid base). I think the whole "they ruined him" narrative is super shortsighted. The kid didn't improve in a lot of areas. I'm sorry, but if you have time to text Dan Orlovsky or call Steve Sarkesian to bitch about your OC, you can go work your ass off to improve your mechanics and footwork consistency on your own time as well.

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

How Mac Jones has 'infuriated' Patriots this season.

"One thing that's really infuriated people in the building is the decision-making," Breer said of Jones, as seen in the video player above. "They've been sold the smart, efficient, game-managing quarterback and they're not getting it. The decision-making hasn't been good.


"They see him passing up open receivers. They see things, quite frankly, that you wouldn't see from a quarterback who has those sorts of qualities."

"There was a point in the game, in the third quarter, where Mac Jones checked to a throw to Mike Gesicki," Breer noted. "Gesicki came wide open down the seam. Mac Jones tucked the ball and ran with it. And the coaches, I know, were baffled, because he checked to that play.


"That play is designed to go to Gesicki. Gesicki comes wide open down the seam. The thing might be a touchdown, (but) he pats the ball, tucks it and runs around the corner and scrambles for three yards."

With the obvious caveat that this is Breer and thus might not be very accurate information, if true I see zero future for Mac in New England. Frankly, if true, and if I were in charge, he'd never take another snap for the team.

 

[Kenny F'ing Powers]

I just want to link to this JT O'Sullivan analysis of Mac Jones pre draft. Count how many of the criticisms he makes and flaws he points out are a big part of the reason for Mac's struggles in these past two years (not being willing to challenge windows, speeding up his process to get to the checkdown, skipping reads, footwork not putting him in position to throw with anticipation from a solid base). I think the whole "they ruined him" narrative is super shortsighted. The kid didn't improve in a lot of areas. I'm sorry, but if you have time to text Dan Orlovsky or call Steve Sarkesian to bitch about your OC, you can go work your ass off to improve your mechanics and footwork consistency on your own time as well.

Thanks for posting this. Just watched it and its a really good watch.

Slightly related story (stick with me while I try to thread this needle): I've been coaching little league for the last few seasons, and one of the things that I've learned to really focus the kids on is fundamentals over results. Sounds obvious, but its really hard when, for example, a kid is throwing strikes but his pitching form is terrible. You break his mechanics down, get him throwing with good mechanics...and the results suck. The kids natural inclination - coupled with the habit hes created with his poor mechanics, the desire to succeed, the parents, etc etc etc - is to immediately go back to what was working. That has obvious long term ramifications, but the point is that kids have to get good at failing the important things in order to get better at them.

People can succeed to varying degrees with poor fundamentals, but they have to compensate for it - consciously or subconsciously - in other ways. This feels true for Mac Jones. He feels like that kid that found success doing things his way, but never learned (or was never allowed) to fail at the pieces that would take him a step higher than he is today. We attributed a lot of his failings with the Patriots to other things - Matt Patricia, poor line, lack of skill players, etc. But the video above is proof that the same fundamental failures he has today were present when his team was successful in college. Afraid to throw into tight windows. Moving too quick through his progressions. Rushed footwork/throws. Armchair QB's like us say it. More professional analysts like JT O'Sullivan say it. You don't think coaches/trainers have said it to him? Its there on the tape for everyone to see.

Unfortunately for Mac, he doesn't have the luxury to practice failing at these things now that he's in the NFL. He probably never really learned how to "fail well" at those things, and I wouldn't be shocked if - ironically - his lifetime success at QB never allowed him to get better through failure. He lead his high school team to state regionals and state titles. He had to compete with Tua and Hurts at Alabama to get reps or even make the roster. He was too focused on short term result, not enough on the fundamentals that would get him better and lead to better longterm results.

Anyway, thats my sports psychology breakdown of a human being I dont even know. FWIW, its probably 100% accurate (probably shouldn't have stuck with me while I tried to thread the needle).

 

[Deathofthebambino]

Thanks for posting this. Just watched it and its a really good watch.

Slightly related story (stick with me while I try to thread this needle): I've been coaching little league for the last few seasons, and one of the things that I've learned to really focus the kids on is fundamentals over results. Sounds obvious, but its really hard when, for example, a kid is throwing strikes but his pitching form is terrible. You break his mechanics down, get him throwing with good mechanics...and the results suck. The kids natural inclination - coupled with the habit hes created with his poor mechanics, the desire to succeed, the parents, etc etc etc - is to immediately go back to what was working. That has obvious long term ramifications, but the point is that kids have to get good at failing the important things in order to get better at them.

People can succeed to varying degrees with poor fundamentals, but they have to compensate for it - consciously or subconsciously - in other ways. This feels true for Mac Jones. He feels like that kid that found success doing things his way, but never learned (or was never allowed) to fail at the pieces that would take him a step higher than he is today. We attributed a lot of his failings with the Patriots to other things - Matt Patricia, poor line, lack of skill players, etc. But the video above is proof that the same fundamental failures he has today were present when his team was successful in college. Afraid to throw into tight windows. Moving too quick through his progressions. Rushed footwork/throws. Armchair QB's like us say it. More professional analysts like JT O'Sullivan say it. You don't think coaches/trainers have said it to him? Its there on the tape for everyone to see.

Unfortunately for Mac, he doesn't have the luxury to practice failing at these things now that he's in the NFL. He probably never really learned how to "fail well" at those things, and I wouldn't be shocked if - ironically - his lifetime success at QB never allowed him to get better through failure. He lead his high school team to state regionals and state titles. He had to compete with Tua and Hurts at Alabama to get reps or even make the roster. He was too focused on short term result, not enough on the fundamentals that would get him better and lead to better longterm results.

Anyway, thats my sports psychology breakdown of a human being I dont even know. FWIW, its probably 100% accurate (probably shouldn't have stuck with me while I tried to thread the needle).

@Arroyoyo said we aren't supposed to take Orlovsky's analysis because he was a shitty NFL QB, but folks love to point out JT O'Sullivan around here. Just kidding, sort of.

That said, I agree with what you wrote here. The best example of this is Tiger Woods. Tiger Woods, while already being the best golfer the planet had ever seen at the time, would strip down his golf swing and change it and take the bad results for a while until he figured it out, and then came back even better. That's a hard fucking mentality to have. Probably a bit different in a team sport like football, where failing on the job means no job, and a team that suffers too.

 

[Arroyoyo]

I’m not saying Orlovsky can’t be a good analyst. I’m saying what has he ever done to make you think he’s a good analyst today? He popped up out of nowhere a few years ago.

I haven’t really watched JT O’Sullivan either, but if we’re talking about credibility: watching the video above, he seems to have earned some, no? Watch it. He pointed out so many of the things we complain about now every Sunday while Mac was still at Alabama.

 

[rodderick]

I’m not saying Orlovsky can’t be a good analyst. I’m saying what has he ever done to make you think he’s a good analyst today? He popped up out of nowhere a few years ago.

I haven’t really watched JT O’Sullivan either, but if we’re talking about credibility: watching the video above, he seems to have earned some, no? Watch it. He pointed out so many of the things we complain about now every Sunday while Mac was still at Alabama.

The only QB Orlovsky was willing to criticize was Zach Wilson, and now he's the first line of defense for him too (with many of the same arguments he uses for Mac). Dude was out there caping for Carson Wentz passionately last year even as he was thoroughly outplayed by Taylor Heinicke. I don't doubt Orlovsky's knowledge or acumen as an analyst, I have severe doubts over his willingness to be critical of current players on TV. Don't have that feeling with JT, or even guys like Kurt Warner for that matter.

 

[Cellar-Door]

I’m not saying Orlovsky can’t be a good analyst. I’m saying what has he ever done to make you think he’s a good analyst today? He popped up out of nowhere a few years ago.

I haven’t really watched JT O’Sullivan either, but if we’re talking about credibility: watching the video above, he seems to have earned some, no? Watch it. He pointed out so many of the things we complain about now every Sunday while Mac was still at Alabama.

The reason people don't take Orlovsky seriously on QB play isn't that he wasn't good himself, or that he doesn't know anything (he's often pretty good on ESPN about other things). It's that he is terrible at QB analysis because as a failed QB (and someone who talks/works with lots of QBs) he is unwilling to lay blame on QBs for anything usually. If he likes a QB every failing is on the support around them. If Carson Wentz drops back, shits his pants, drops the ball, then rolls it into his own endzone to be picked up by the defense..... it will be "nutritionist has to be giving him better high fiber meals, coach needs to call better plays, nobody is open, blocking broke down after 12 seconds... unacceptable"

He's just not a reliable source on QB play.

 

[Deathofthebambino]

I’m not saying Orlovsky can’t be a good analyst. I’m saying what has he ever done to make you think he’s a good analyst today? He popped up out of nowhere a few years ago.

I haven’t really watched JT O’Sullivan either, but if we’re talking about credibility: watching the video above, he seems to have earned some, no? Watch it. He pointed out so many of the things we complain about now every Sunday while Mac was still at Alabama.

Caveat: I don't really know how to judge analysts bodies of work. I agree with some of them some of the time, and disagree with some of them some of the time.

Orlovsky was in the NFL from when he was drafted in 2005, until his retirement in 2017. He then started making his own Youtube videos doing analysis of video (the editing was not very good, but his knowledge was pretty apparent). ESPN then hired him as an analyst 5 years ago. So I'm not really sure he "popped out of nowhere." Schefter was reporting earlier this year that Orlovsky had turned down prominent offensive coaching roles for the Colts and Panthers to stay at ESPN. https://awfulannouncing.com/espn/dan-orlovsky-reportedly-candidate-two-nfl-coaching-jobs-adam-schefter.html

The thing I will say about Orlovsky that I like is the guy admits when he's wrong, famously taking the L in the Carson Wentz/Jalen Hurts debate.

All I was trying to convey was that if we're disregarding Orlovsky because he was a shitty NFL QB, or because he popped up of nowhere, but we're fine accepting O'Sullivan's worth as an analyst because he agrees with folks positions. I mean, O'Sullivan was coaching a high school team to a 21-10 record over 3 years, until less than 2 years ago, and started his own social media break downs of QB play. They both break down film regularly. They just have different viewpoints on some players, but I just found it weird that we're ignoring Orlovsky for reasons that most definitely apply to O'Sullivan, if not more so.

 

[Ed Hillel]

Who is going to trade anything for Mac? If you put him on the market this off season people are just going to assume you are cutting him. Also with Malik Cunningham I don't see the point of drafting a late round QB especially if you are dumping Mac. You are going to want to bring in a veteran guy.

His base salary is 2 million dollars. I would honestly be surprised if you couldn’t get at least a 6th for him, he’s probably fine as a backup and with that salary someone would probably take him. The Pats just might want to move on from him and let him get a change of scenery to avoid the awkwardness of him still being on the roster.

Edit - Closer to 3 million, but point stands. Very cheap.

 

[BigJimEd]

His base salary is 2 million dollars. I would honestly be surprised if you couldn’t get at least a 6th for him, he’s probably fine as a backup and with that salary someone would probably take him. The Pats just might want to move on from him and let him get a change of scenery to avoid the awkwardness of him still being on the roster.

Almost 2.8M next year. All guaranteed. Pats should be able to get a late round pick and save some money if they decide to move on.

 

[Deathofthebambino]

The reason people don't take Orlovsky seriously on QB play isn't that he wasn't good himself, or that he doesn't know anything (he's often pretty good on ESPN about other things). It's that he is terrible at QB analysis because as a failed QB (and someone who talks/works with lots of QBs) he is unwilling to lay blame on QBs for anything usually. If he likes a QB every failing is on the support around them. If Carson Wentz drops back, shits his pants, drops the ball, then rolls it into his own endzone to be picked up by the defense..... it will be "nutritionist has to be giving him better high fiber meals, coach needs to call better plays, nobody is open, blocking broke down after 12 seconds... unacceptable"

He's just not a reliable source on QB play.

Who are the people that don't take him seriously? Because as I just noted, NFL teams were ready to bring him in on their coaching staff this season.

Here's JT O'Sullivan's preseason discussion about the NFL North QB's. A lot of wishy washy shit on Love and Fields, thought Goff and the Lions success at the end of last year was a mirage, and he shit all over CJ Stroud's first appearance in the preseason:

https://awfulannouncing.com/espn/dan-orlovsky-reportedly-candidate-two-nfl-coaching-jobs-adam-schefter.html

He had a lot of good thoughts on Kenny Pickett in late September:

https://steelersdepot.com/2023/09/former-nfl-qb-j-t-osullivan-encouraged-by-kenny-picketts-play-even-if-he-doesnt-like-watching-this-offense/

These were his 2021 draft QB rankings:

1. Justin Fields
2. Trevor Lawrence
3. Trey Lance
4. Zach Wilson
5. Kellen Mond
6. Mac Jones

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=461&v=yiVnm1BpP40&embeds_referring_euri=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.fieldchatter.com%2F&source_ve_path=Mjg2NjY&feature=emb_logo


Like I said, all of these guys have shitty takes and good ones. How anybody could look at that draft class and come away with Fields ahead of Lawrence, is well, insane to me. When you're making predictions, you're going to be wrong some times. I'm not trying to crap on O'Sullivan either, I appreciate any guys that actually break down tape (which is why I give zero fucks what the Felgers and Breers and their false narratives have to say)

Orlovsky got a ton of shit for saying if Mac were playing QB for the Niners, he'd look like Purdy. Well, Purdy lost Deebo, then his left tackle, and 3 games later, 3 losses later, 3tds, 5 interceptions (plus 2 fumbles, 1 lost), against Cleveland, Minnesota and Cincy, and well, he kind of looks a bit like Mac right now. Sometimes, they're right, sometimes they're wrong. Both pretty consistently talk or make excuses for quarterbacks based on coaching, offensive line play and receivers, which I very much agree with, because just evaluating a QB without evaluating the situation around them doesn't tell me much.

 

[Jinhocho]

View: https://twitter.com/throwthedamball/status/1722617033823535515/photo/1


This mirrors what some of us having been saying.

 

[tims4wins]

View: https://twitter.com/throwthedamball/status/1722617033823535515/photo/1


This mirrors what some of us having been saying.

It is? If he is in the upper right, that means he is both throwing to the open man, and that the receiver has separation. If that's the case, shouldn't the offense be humming?

 

[Cellar-Door]

It is? If he is in the upper right, that means he is both throwing to the open man, and that the receiver has separation. If that's the case, shouldn't the offense be humming?

It doesn't take into account ADOT for one. guys who check down a lot should be on the top half no matter what.
What this does tell us is guys are getting open.... now, why that isn't translating to points/yards is a more complex issue. If you miss a guy 15 yards down field who got separation, but check it down to the back who is open... you end up in the top right exactly the same as you would if you hit that guy 15 yards down field. But one is a really positive play for the offense and the other may have little value.


Edit- also worth noting that it's THROWS to an open man, not completions. So say the much discussed play where Thornton is wide open and Mac misses him by 4 feet... that's a top right quadrant play... excellent separation, threw to the open man.... no positive impact because it was incomplete.

 

[Deathofthebambino]

It doesn't take into account ADOT for one. guys who check down a lot should be on the top half no matter what.
What this does tell us is guys are getting open.... now, why that isn't translating to points/yards is a more complex issue. If you miss a guy 15 yards down field who got separation, but check it down to the back who is open... you end up in the top right exactly the same as you would if you hit that guy 15 yards down field. But one is a really positive play for the offense and the other may have little value.


Edit- also worth noting that it's THROWS to an open man, not completions. So say the much discussed play where Thornton is wide open and Mac misses him by 4 feet... that's a top right quadrant play... excellent separation, threw to the open man.... no positive impact because it was incomplete.

Agreed with this.

I think the only thing we can really tell from that is Mac is avoiding throwing the ball into coverage. It doesn't really tell much more than that.

 

[Deathofthebambino]

View: https://twitter.com/throwthedamball/status/1722617033823535515/photo/1


This mirrors what some of us having been saying.

Pretty fucking funny response to that chart on Twitter:

View: https://twitter.com/kct2020/status/1722663450432725401

 

[mwonow]

Is it wrong that the only future thing I want for Mac is to have his next game broken down by he whiny basketball D guy?

 

[dirtynine]

Can we rename this thread to “How do you know your Mac is done?”

 

[NomarsFool]

Is it wrong that the only future thing I want for Mac is to have his next game broken down by he whiny basketball D guy?

Yes!

 

[Ed Hillel]

View: https://twitter.com/throwthedamball/status/1722617033823535515/photo/1


This mirrors what some of us having been saying.

How about this one lol:
View: https://twitter.com/throwthedamball/status/1722966147639693686?s=46&t=11SXTvIYT-tl8b6e7iEUVQ

And more - Mac has above average clean pocket percentage but can’t do anything with it:
View: https://twitter.com/throwthedamball/status/1720469704001605841?s=46&t=11SXTvIYT-tl8b6e7iEUVQ

 

[Ed Hillel]

This maybe belongs in the other thread, but the data points suggest:

1. Pats receivers get pretty good separation;
2. Mac often throws to open receivers;
3. Mac has a clean pocket more than your average QB;
4. His performance when he has a clean pocket (during which he often throws to open receivers) is Godawful; and,
5. In the times he faces objective pressure (ie when he’s not bailing early), he’s still terrible.

I’m not sure it matches the eye test 100%, but it’s close. A lot of it is probably Mac panicking in clean pockets making it look like he’s under pressure and skewing our perspective. It does seem to support the eye test of terrible pocket presence creating illusory pressure and footwork causing accuracy issues, however.

 

[DJnVa]

 

[nolasoxfan]

OK, I give up.


Or is that the point...?

 

[jtn46]

OK, I give up.
View attachment 73653

Or is that the point...?

Look at who is around Pop on that chart. Justin Jefferson, AJ Brown, CeeDee Lamb, Jaylen Waddle.

Also not ideal if you’re a Bolts fan and your 1st round pick is the worst receiver on this chart at getting separation.

 

[tims4wins]

He's in the upper right. His name is Demario.

 

[nolasoxfan]

Look at who is around Pop on that chart. Justin Jefferson, AJ Brown, CeeDee Lamb, Jaylen Waddle.

Also not ideal if you’re a Bolts fan and your 1st round pick is the worst receiver on this chart at getting separation.

Thanks for the hint; changed glasses twice!
I see no YAC JuJu is right where I thought he'd be, and I only listen to the games on XM radio!

 

[mauf]

I don’t want Mac on next year’s team. Culture matters. From the number of leaks about him, plus what we can observe for ourselves on the field, he’s not a leader. And he’s not materially more talented than journeymen like Jacoby Brissett or Mitch Trubisky who will be available this offseason at a nominal cost. Better to move on, even if the Pats don’t want to bet big on any of the available options in free agency or the draft.

 

[Justthetippett]

I don’t want Mac on next year’s team. Culture matters. From the number of leaks about him, plus what we can observe for ourselves on the field, he’s not a leader. And he’s not materially more talented than journeymen like Jacoby Brissett or Mitch Trubisky who will be available this offseason at a nominal cost. Better to move on, even if the Pats don’t want to bet big on any of the available options in free agency or the draft.

Mac Jones: so bad he'll make you talk yourself into Mitch Trubiskey! Dear God. Let's please not go down that road.

 

[8slim]

And, shockingly, I blame the player.

I agree. Building and rebuilding fundamentals is clearly a lifetime pursuit. It's not like in 2006 Brady said "I got it, no more fundamentals work for me, I've mastered the craft." He tweaked his approach incessantly until the day he retired. I'm sure Peyton did the same. Mac either has not, will not, or simply can't get it right when he does. Regardless, it ain't changing so it's time to move on when this season ends.

How Mac Jones has 'infuriated' Patriots this season.

With the obvious caveat that this is Breer and thus might not be very accurate information, if true I see zero future for Mac in New England. Frankly, if true, and if I were in charge, he'd never take another snap for the team.

When that piece suggests what the Pats were "sold" in regards to Mac, I wonder who was doing the "selling"? His pre-draft scouting report? Bill in the offseason? I'm trying to figure out who was the cause of this frustration (aside from Mac himself, of course).

 

[rodderick]

I agree. Building and rebuilding fundamentals is clearly a lifetime pursuit. It's not like in 2006 Brady said "I got it, no more fundamentals work for me, I've mastered the craft." He tweaked his approach incessantly until the day he retired. I'm sure Peyton did the same. Mac either has not, will not, or simply can't get it right when he does. Regardless, it ain't changing so it's time to move on when this season ends.



When that piece suggests what the Pats were "sold" in regards to Mac, I wonder who was doing the "selling"? His pre-draft scouting report? Bill in the offseason? I'm trying to figure out who was the cause of this frustration (aside from Mac himself, of course).

I think that's just what the scouting report on him was at the time. It was a widely held opinion that he was a good decision maker. Of course, it also follows that every single QB lacking physical tools who had success in college automatically gets the "good decision maker" label when that's not necessarily the case.

 

[johnmd20]

And hey, all the teeth gnashing about Mac aside, imagine you're Carolina and you traded a first round pick to move up to pick a guy who is 5'9" and has no great physical tools? So the team is going to have the first pick again this year, except it goes to Chicago.

Could be worse.

 

[mauf]

View: https://twitter.com/throwthedamball/status/1722617033823535515/photo/1


This mirrors what some of us having been saying.

This chart makes a compelling case for Dan Campbell as Coach of the Year.

 

[BaseballJones]

This tells me that Douglas is one of the better WRs in the NFL. Unless I'm reading this wrong. Dude gets open and does a lot with the ball when he gets it.

 

[rodderick]

And hey, all the teeth gnashing about Mac aside, imagine you're Carolina and you traded a first round pick to move up to pick a guy who is 5'9" and has no great physical tools? So the team is going to have the first pick again this year, except it goes to Chicago.

Could be worse.

Yeah, Bryce Young was a great anticipatory thrower in college and had very good ability to create out of structure and deliver the ball with elite placement, but the combo of being that small, not being fast and having a meh at best arm is super tough to overcome at the pro level. If you can't see the field and the windows are closing much faster, your ability to anticipate has to be historically good for you to consistently deliver the ball accurately and on time. Drew Brees had that, but he was also taller. Russell Wilson is much stronger and has a way better arm, Kyler is faster and has a cannon, there just aren't many guys of Young's profile to call back to. Maybe Doug Flutie or even going back further Fran Tarkenton?

 

[joe dokes]

Can we rename this thread to “How do you know your Mac is done?”

Another blue screen pass of death.

 

[Cellar-Door]

This tells me that Douglas is one of the better WRs in the NFL. Unless I'm reading this wrong. Dude gets open and does a lot with the ball when he gets it.

Yes, and no. It's much like Shaheed who has been like this for a couple years. The question will be how it scales with volume. The top guys keep up those numbers over a lot more targets and against gamplans to stop them. Lower volume guys don't get as many no-hope plays dragging them down.

 

[DJnVa]

This tells me that Douglas is one of the better WRs in the NFL. Unless I'm reading this wrong. Dude gets open and does a lot with the ball when he gets it.

Well, it says he has some underlying numbers that look really good. Volume matters though. Can it be sustained?