I have a strong feeling that Zappe won’t make another NFL roster once the Pats dump him. He’s truly bad.
Mac's Future
- Thread starter TomRicardo
- Start date
Might be right, we don't disagree.
Fringe backup to me means basically on the edge of being out of the league.
Well, his final mental collapse this year was probably tough to predict, but the vast majority of his failures the last 2.5 years were concerns that were brought up many places including here (Arm strength, footwork, handling pressure, tight windows, etc.).
What basically happened is that all of the concerns turned out to be on the money, and the thing people counted on as floor raising like accuracy and decision making were a bit of a mirage. Turned out, it's a lot easier to be accurate and find the open man when you have 10 seconds in a spacious and pristine pocket and are throwing to guys who are just much better than their defenders, and rarely face a defense that both has talent and schemes to confuse you.
Now the mental part... you never know how guys will handle adversity and criticism until it happens.
Yeah. Everyone knew Mac can't run. We knew his arm wasn't great. We knew he was playing with a stacked roster against physically overmatched opponents.
What we didn't know is that once he faced adversity he turned into mush.
What we didn't know is that once he faced adversity he turned into mush.
I think you just go with Zappe. Mac is the worst starting QB in the NFL by far. He is absolute trash and there is really no point in trotting him out there. Just go with Zappe or someone else. Anyone but Mac Jones at this point.
for pretty much any QB drafted into the NFL the floor is bust who doesn't get a second contract. no one should be expected to be adequate at worst.
yeah, I think this about every draft (not just NFL), people always want to say "Well the floor is he'll be.....x" or "low ceiling, high floor".... thing is, there is no floor for pro athletes, having a low ceiling usually just means you have less ways to succeed.
I think we can rule out the OL as being the big problem, because they have been pretty capable the past 2 months or so and Mac has probably gotten worse. You put a top 15 QB on this team and they’re probably 6-5 or something.
Very much agree. The biggest weakness on this team has been and remains QB play.
Early in the season I felt like Mac was getting ridiculous pressure on every play. Either the o line has gotten better and/or defenses are sending fewer guys at the qb. I think yesterday crystallized that having the dbs bait our quarterbacks into throwing a pick is a super effective strategy.
For me, it's like taking back roads to work rather than the highway. I still end up at work, but the ride was just a bit more interesting.
The team is completely checked out and the preferrable outcome for the season is for them to lose every game. Luckily the two options at QB suck to an almost incomprehensible extent, so who cares who starts, I'm just happy we can head into 2024 without having to entertain "look, here's why Mac Jones is akshually a good NFL QB brought down by his environment" narratives. Gotta find two guys next year, draft a QB high, sign Jacoby Brissett as a veteran backup and let's move on.
First, I'll agree with your larger point that we now know who Mac Jones is, and have certainty as to his ceiling with the New England Patriots. He may have a higher ceiling elsewhere, although I am highly skeptical that his decision making will somehow improve just by changing teams. So, no need to exercise the 5th year option, and his 4th year is a sunk cost anyway.
But the bolded is not correct. There are pending UFA's that still want to show other organizations that they can still play for real money in this league (Trent Brown made such a comment post-game). You also have players who become cuttable* next season by the nature of their contracts, and for the first time in a long time there is uncertainty as to who will be making those cuts when league calendar rolls forward. And there are rookies that see this season as their first opportunity to get some real playing time; for all they know, next season's coach could be standing on the sidelines or up in the booth.
*: The only players with >$5M dead cap hit if cut next season:
Gonzalez: injured, but going nowhere obviously
Judon: Ditto
JuJu: Probably a post-June 1st cut
Jonathan Jones: safe
Cole Strange: safe
DeVante Parker: could be cut easily enough at just over $6M dead cap hit
Bentley: safe
And the highest dead cap hit among those remaining, at just under $5M?
Michael Jones
I was all in favor of keeping Mac around next year, use his cheap contract to help with the rebuild, maybe see some improvement (for trade value), etc. But I’m off that train now. He needs to go, for his own mental state and for the good of the team. Get whatever you can, a conditional 7th rounder, and move on. Cut him if there are no takers. I still think they need to build up the overall talent base before getting the QB, but I don’t want them to rebuild with Mac.
He does need to go for everyone's mental well-being. And for the sake of the fanbase, they need to bring in someone with some potential. Fully agreed whoever that is can't fix this by themselves.
Like a few others here, I've come all the way through the "bench Mac because his play makes me angry" phase and entered the "bench Mac because his play makes us both sad" phase. His mind is bad and his soul is sprained. Let the healing begin.
I said it last week when I thought he might sit, benching Mac is a mercy at this point.
Hell you might even find a path back to old Mac in the before Matt days. Neither Mac nor Zappe for that matter are as bad as they are playing now, how could they be? They’re just ruined. It’s a travishamocracy all round.
I know that correlation does not equal causation, but the Patriots are 2-0 when Mac doesn't throw an interception. So if this trend holds, you could write "GAME OVER" the moment when a Mac Jones "pass" gets intercepted. Because they ain't coming back from that. Not even against the Giants.
https://x.com/PatsBuzz/status/1729210435696742444?s=20
Mac Jones had 4 (!!) Turnover worthy plays yesterday in only 1 half of football per PFF. He leads the league with 23 Turnover worthy plays this season.
Mac Jones had 4 (!!) Turnover worthy plays yesterday in only 1 half of football per PFF. He leads the league with 23 Turnover worthy plays this season.
I am not sure how this stat can be correct.
Mac Jones has 4 more interceptions than throwaways this season, per PFF.
https://x.com/_AndrewCallahan/status/1729267645873041695?s=20
Mac Jones has 4 more interceptions than throwaways this season, per PFF.
https://x.com/_AndrewCallahan/status/1729267645873041695?s=20
I actually wonder if some of his INTs have been attempts at throwaways, but never got the ball far enough to go out of bounds and instead were picked off. Only half joking.
Yup, it's an issue. He tries to force way too much. Which happens when you're completely in your head and feel like you have to make plays.
In 2019, when Brady got fed up with the receiving corps, he threw 40 balls away. That's an insanely high number for a pure pocket passer (QB's that get outside the pocket have more opportunity to throw it away because the potential for grounding isn't there). To give an idea how high that is, in 3 seasons in Tampa, Brady only threw away a total of 48 passes (13, 13 and 22 each year).
I believe Rodgers set the NFL record in 2018 with 52 throwaways (only 48 according to F-ref, so there is some dispute on the number), but as you can see in this video, most of his are on the move outside the pocket. There's also a bunch from in the pocket that Brady absolutely would have gotten called for grounding:
View: https://twitter.com/QBDataMine/status/1253684236684582913
Rodgers was asked about it at the time. and he said:
Rodgers said the majority of the throwaways were “coverage throwaways.”
“I think it’s guys being open,” Rodgers said. “If a guy’s open, I’m going to pull the trigger. But if guys are covered, and I can’t extend it, then you have to find a place to go with the ball that it’s our guys’ or nobody’s.”
The 39 extra incompletions have helped tanked Rodgers’ completion percentage, which sits at 60.6 after eight games. His career-low since taking over as a starter is 60.7, set in 2015.
Throwing the ball away should have been something drilled into Mac's head a long time ago, but apparently wasn't, but the good quarterbacks in this league recognize when a play isn't there, take the medicine and move onto the next play.
Mac thinks he's Patrick Mahomes and tries to play accordingly. The problem is that he's got the arm of Pete Gray.
I see no reason why we should assume Mac hasn't been told to throw the ball away. If he's too football stupid to make smart plays and recognize what he's physically capable of, there is no place for him in this league.
That he's forcing plays and trying to be the hero goes back to earlier comments here about his post-game pressers, where he gives the impression that we are all side characters in his personal fantasy quest. It's obnoxious, AND it's showing up in the way he plays.
I see no reason why we should assume Mac hasn't been told to throw the ball away. If he's too football stupid to make smart plays and recognize what he's physically capable of, there is no place for him in this league.
That he's forcing plays and trying to be the hero goes back to earlier comments here about his post-game pressers, where he gives the impression that we are all side characters in his personal fantasy quest. It's obnoxious, AND it's showing up in the way he plays.
yeah, this ties into some other stuff I think about when people say "What are the coaches doing!" as was once noted by Marcelo Bielsa in the other kind of football "If football was played by robots I would win everything". A lot of stuff comes down to execution. Tyquan Thornton, we know that the coaching staff put a big focus on him not taking extra steps at the break of his routes.... he still does it all the time, that's not a coaching issue, you can't force him to do what you coach. For Mac... you can't force him to throw it out of bounds, or step into the pocket, or just eat it. That's on the player once they hit the field.
Agreed on Thornton, this is one time I do agree with DotB that the receiver is not an NFL-level player. He's taking a ton of steps at the end of every break point. I assume Troy Brown and the other coaches have been working with him to stop it but clearly Thornton is not taking that and putting it into action.
None of that takes away from the clear fact that Mac can't play.
And weirdly it's Pete Gray's right arm. Wrapped in cellophane. Stored in his basement freezer.
I am surprised that he is getting worse. He's clearly not the future in NE. He should be playing fast and loose for his next job. His present coaches are clearly not in his corner. Expectations are exceptionally low. Yet, he is becoming more tentative and mechanically unsound. It's like he has hit rock bottom and started digging. I was expecting a dead cat bounce after Germany.
Have to agree with that. If we are in the position to take harrison I think we have to go with him. OT in second. Bringing a young quarterback into this weak roster is another recipe for failure. Talent level around the position needs to improve
You guys are aware they have more than one draft pick and free agency starts before the draft, right? They won't be drafting a QB into this same roster. And even if they were, where did this idea of quarterback as the last piece come from? I know the popular narrative is that the Patriots "broke" Mac Jones, but I'm going to take the controversial stance that just maybe Mac Jones had a little to do with his failures in New England and we shouldn't just assume every other player in a similar position would also be turned into a puddle by this environment. If you like the quarterback, take the quarterback. Always.
Yeah, I'm not sure where people started with this "build an elite roster then drop in the QB".... it doesn't really work that way usually. In part, because it's very very very difficult to get a top QB outside of the early draft. I can't think of the last team who didn't have a good QB who passed on QB at the top of the draft and didn't regret it.
2020 WAS passes on a QB (herbert or Tua)... wastes a bunch of years with no QB, now everyone is likely fired and starting over.
2018- DEN passes on QB at #5....... 5 straight losing seasons without a QB, then trade a huge haul to sign Russ WIlson to a huge contract
I think this is right. Building the roster and then getting the QB seems too clever by half. If any of the top QBs (including Daniels) is there when they pick, I'll be upset if they pass. Otherwise we're signing up for a longer rebuild and scouting the 2025 class.
I threw this out in a gamethread, but is there any scenario where Herbert becomes available if LAC can swap him for Williams? Farfetched, but maybe not impossible. He's expensive now. With Williams they can reset. The Bears have a shit ton of cap space and may bite with the CAR pick.
The Pats are almost guaranteed of getting Maye or Daniels so the question really becomes on the evaluation. Pretty clear to me that BB or whoever is calling the shots goes QB if they think both project as good NFL starters. If they do not, well, that’s where it gets interesting.
I don’t want a QB for the sake of a QB and am not under any illusion that this is a one year rebuild. I think there is a valid argument for trying MHJ and a Nix type if we don’t think highly of Daniels or Maye. You go that route and your Nix type QB sucks in 2024, then you’ll have a high pick again and can take another bite at the apple in 2025.
But that's where the "trade down" option becomes more interesting. If they're not sold on the QBs remaining with a Top 5 pick, can they get someone to swap 1's and add a 2025 first-rounder to move up?
It's said to be a deep draft for tackles and wide receivers, so a trade down starts to make sense when you need quantity as well as quality over the next couple of drafts.
I would operate under the assumption that the Patriots won't be in position to take one of the two best QBs of a draft in the top 3 without trading up in the near future. I don't think they'll be this bad again with any consistency. They haven't for more than 50 years.
It’s all relative. What if there are 4-5 good QBs in 2025 round 1? We don’t know. Taking a QB because you have to take a QB just feels like rigid thinking for me. If Maye is the guy, take him. If there is considerable doubt, I hope they don’t.
No one is arguing they should take a QB they don't like, just that you shouldn't avoid getting a QB because you're afraid he'll be ruined by the team he'll have around him.
And drafting higher means having more options. If there are 4-5 QBs in round one, I want to be at the spot that gives me the most choices out of those guys and not just have to take the 5th QB on the board because well, I like him, we have a need and he's the only one left.
My motivation at this point is really just getting established offensive talent on this roster regardless of position. I hope Maye is the guy because QB is obviously most important. I’ve watched him a few times and can kind of see the intrigue but I’m not wow’d by him. Will be curious to see the SMU write up on him. I love MHJ as a player so if we don’t go QB, he’s my guy if AZ doesn’t snatch him up.
That's perfectly fair. I don't really love college football so I'll be diving into the QB prospects after the NFL season ends, so it may very well be I don't end up liking any of them at the top of the draft either.
Just my opinion but given his drafting history I’d be flabbergasted if Belichick took MHJ at #2 or 3 given his general distain for even taking a WR in the 1st round. If the top two QB’s are gone or just not desired very highly i think he trades out for multiple picks. Of course this is assuming he‘s still making the decisions at that point.
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Jayden Daniels is really starting to grow on me. I’m starting to favor a scenario where we trade down from 3 to 6 or so to get Daniels, pick up a 2nd, and then use our own 2nd and the acquired one to trade back into the mid first round to get a top WR like Nabers, Odunze, or Coleman. And then you give the bag to Tee Higgins in FA and you’ve completely overhauled your offense in one offseason.
Probably with my scenario is Daniels could be a top 3-4 pick target by late April. He’s rising fast. I really love Nabers and would take him in a trade down scenario as well. But he seems to be rising a ton too.
Well a pro scouting department has a decent idea, but also... even years where 4-5 QBs get drafted in the 1st and have starter grades from teams.... it's pretty rare that all 4-5 have starter grades from all teams. In order to push it to next year it's really not about next year, it's saying "I think there is not a starter caliber QB left". So this year you;d have to think there was 1 starter. Now some years teams might think that (see 2022), but it's pretty rare and you're taking a huge risk.