Minor League Thread 2024

JM3

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JM3

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A mid-level prospect for Kenley? Or more if we subsidize? I'm in! I had actually started doing a write-up of like 10 Royals pitching prospects I would be interested in acquiring for Kenley, but it seemed a bit unhinged & I stopped when I had to do irl things.

“I would imagine you get a mid-level prospect for Kenley Jansen because, keep in mind, the team is taking on 16 million. That gets him. That’s his salary. Now granted at the Red Sox pay half, they get a better prospect. We know how that works,” Rosenthal said. “But I don’t know that he’s bringing it two or three guys. Granted, it’s a one-year deal, he’s a high-performing guy, someone you can basically count on. But I don’t expect it to be a massive kind of haul. I’d expect to get something decent, but nothing that you’re going to say a top 100 guy for Kenley Jansen. I don’t expect that to happen.”
https://www.masslive.com/redsox/2024/01/mlb-insider-floats-potential-return-if-red-sox-trade-kenley-jansen.html
 

JM3

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Ok, I take back everything I said about walk rates.

Melvin Adón is 29 & has never played in an MLB game, & walked 8.3 per 9 innings in AAA last year. He's been in the Giants org since 2015 so Bailey probably has some familiarity, but yeah, idk.

https://www.fangraphs.com/players/melvin-adon/sa873314/stats?position=P
Some Adón content from BCamp:

The Dominican Republic native originally signed with San Francisco for $50,000 as a 20-year-old international free agent coming out of Santo Domingo in February 2015.
The right-hander worked his way up through the organization primarily as a starter, but successfully transitioned to the bullpen in the 2018 Arizona Fall League before being added to the Giants’ 40-man roster that November in order to receive protection from the Rule 5 Draft.
Adon was ranked by Baseball America as the Giants’ No. 12 prospect to open the 2019 season.
Pandemic in '20 & then shoulder surgery in February '21...

The procedure cost Adon, who was non-tendered by the Giants and brought back on a minor-league deal, all of 2021 and the first two months of the 2022 campaign.
Standing at 6-foot-3 and 246 pounds, Adon primarily operates with a two-pitch mix that consists of an upper-90s sinking fastball that can reach triple digits and a low-90s slider. As FanGraphs’ Eric Longenhagen mentioned last June, Adon struggles with his command and “can’t throw strikes with his fastball, but he might not have to if he can get ahead of hitters with his slider and then rush his heater past them once he’s in two-strike counts.”
Given how much right-handed depth Boston currently has in its bullpen, though, he is likely ticketed to break camp with Triple-A Worcester this spring.
https://bloggingtheredsox.com/2024/01/31/red-sox-sign-former-giants-pitching-prospect-melvin-adon-to-minor-league-deal/
 

tims4wins

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13th is kind of sad. I think we'll be jumping back up rankings once the season starts, though. Partially because we aren't about to graduate our best guys, but also, I think we're on a good development path.

View: https://twitter.com/tylermilliken_/status/1753424411854569810
What happened here? We have been told repeatedly the Sox have one of the top systems in baseball. Now it's middle of the pack despite not graduating anyone or trading anyone?
 

nighthob

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I’m not paying for BA or ESPN Insider, so I can’t comment on their reasoning. But I’d be skeptical.
 

JM3

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What happened here? We have been told repeatedly the Sox have one of the top systems in baseball. Now it's middle of the pack despite not graduating anyone or trading anyone?
Honestly it's just weird to me. BA had the Red Sox #5 mid season. Since then they've added Fitts, Roman has continued to rise, Wikelman, Perales & Yordanny all pitched well after promotions, Abreu had success in MLB while still retaining prospect status, Teel flourished, they overturned their whole pitching development program with some of the smartest minds in the industry, it was realized that Mayer's struggles were due to a fluke shoulder injury & the best outgoing prospect is Drohan. The depth of the system is so good that we lost an absurd # of players in the 2 R5 drafts. No one who would actually impact the rankings (except maybe Drohan who is lower rated than Fitts), but a good indicator of a healthy system.

I think it may be tied to the general pessimism about the Red Sox MLB side, but I see absolutely no reason to be less optimistic about the system now than one was at mid season.
 

tims4wins

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Honestly it's just weird to me. BA had the Red Sox #5 mid season. Since then they've added Fitts, Roman has continued to rise, Wikelman, Perales & Yordanny all pitched well after promotions, Abreu had success in MLB while still retaining prospect status, Teel flourished, they overturned their whole pitching development program with some of the smartest minds in the industry, it was realized that Mayer's struggles were due to a fluke shoulder injury & the best outgoing prospect is Drohan. The depth of the system is so good that we lost an absurd # of players in the 2 R5 drafts. No one who would actually impact the rankings (except maybe Drohan who is lower rated than Fitts), but a good indicator of a healthy system.

I think it may be tied to the general pessimism about the Red Sox MLB side, but I see absolutely no reason to be less optimistic about the system now than one was at mid season.
Speaking personally, I was never all that optimistic about the system. To me they had a blue chipper that they drafted due to having an awful year; a couple decent picks; and filler. And we've know for quite a bit that they have zero pitching.
 

JM3

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Speaking personally, I was never all that optimistic about the system. To me they had a blue chipper that they drafted due to having an awful year; a couple decent picks; and filler. And we've know for quite a bit that they have zero pitching.
Eh, I mean I disagree, but it's a valid opinion. I think they have a lot of pitchers who have the potential to take jumps in a quantity over quality way, & I think they have several other interesting guys beyond just the big 3.

What is disappointing is that Bloom allowed a lot of assets to expire without turning them into future assets while also not really trying to compete, so we definitely missed some opportunities to have more, but I think the system is in a good place & will crank out probably an ~average amount of cost-controlled pitching & a well above average amount of cost controlled hitting in the next year or two.

What I don't think makes any sense is thinking the Red Sox were the 5th best system at mid season & now thinking they're 13th because they haven't graduated people, haven't gotten particularly bad news about anyone, haven't traded away people, etc.
 

tims4wins

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Eh, I mean I disagree, but it's a valid opinion. I think they have a lot of pitchers who have the potential to take jumps in a quantity over quality way, & I think they have several other interesting guys beyond just the big 3.

What is disappointing is that Bloom allowed a lot of assets to expire without turning them into future assets while also not really trying to compete, so we definitely missed some opportunities to have more, but I think the system is in a good place & will crank out probably an ~average amount of cost-controlled pitching & a well above average amount of cost controlled hitting in the next year or two.

What I don't think makes any sense is thinking the Red Sox were the 5th best system at mid season & now thinking they're 13th because they haven't graduated people, haven't gotten particularly bad news about anyone, haven't traded away people, etc.
Agreed - there is no logical reason for the downgrading. I personally would have had the system in the 8-12 range the whole time; nothing has happened to change that.
 

Jed Zeppelin

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They are 1-3 more breakouts from a quick jolt of re-excitement about the system, imo

Basically, if the top 3 continue to produce then you get ceiling-type performances from a few of:
  • Romero
  • Yorke
  • Wikelman
  • Cespedes
  • Bleis
  • YorDaddy
  • Perales
  • Anderson
  • Zanatello
  • Blaze
…then I think the conversation changes. And that’s not even accounting for all the high-floor guys who could turn into something, like Hickey, Meidroth, new draftee Riemer (a legit sleeper to watch coming off injury), all those Bloom college pitcher draftees and the new guys acquired this offseason.

I also wonder if some pubs may be unfairly downgrading the system based on perhaps a perception that GMs around the league haven’t valued our prospects in trade, but that is pure conjecture and nobody knows what we have or haven’t offered.

The ceiling outside our top 3 has undoubtedly been dinged by two things: distance from the majors, and injury-aided throwaway seasons from Romero and especially Bleis who was stalking the top 50 before last season.
 

JM3

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They are 1-3 more breakouts from a quick jolt of re-excitement about the system, imo

Basically, if the top 3 continue to produce then you get ceiling-type performances from a few of:
  • Romero
  • Yorke
  • Wikelman
  • Cespedes
  • Bleis
  • YorDaddy
  • Perales
  • Anderson
  • Zanatello
  • Blaze
…then I think the conversation changes. And that’s not even accounting for all the high-floor guys who could turn into something, like Hickey, Meidroth, new draftee Riemer (a legit sleeper to watch coming off injury), all those Bloom college pitcher draftees and the new guys acquired this offseason.

I also wonder if some pubs may be unfairly downgrading the system based on perhaps a perception that GMs around the league haven’t valued our prospects in trade, but that is pure conjecture and nobody knows what we have or haven’t offered.

The ceiling outside our top 3 has undoubtedly been dinged by two things: distance from the majors, and injury-aided throwaway seasons from Romero and especially Bleis who was stalking the top 50 before last season.
Good summation. I'd add JOHANFRAN, Paez, Castro, Paulino, Brannon & several of the other '23 DSL guys like Arias, Musett, Batista & Starlyn as people who could pop this year. Also Penrod, Hoppe, Bastardo & Song.
 

Jed Zeppelin

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Good summation. I'd add JOHANFRAN, Paez, Castro, Paulino, Brannon & several of the other '23 DSL guys like Arias, Musett, Batista & Starlyn as people who could pop this year. Also Penrod, Hoppe, Bastardo & Song.
I’d also add there is a much stronger chance this season that the FO will be willing to pull all possible triggers to inject more talent into the system before the deadline and NOT hang onto departing/older players in some false hope. Certainly looks like the team plans to have the payroll at a level that will facilitate paying full freight on any expiring contract in order to maximize the return.

And if not, it likely means the big squad has way outperformed expectations and we are happy campers either way.
 

simplicio

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Honestly, I think the ratings slide has to do with recency bias. Bleis has been out of action for a long time, Mayer was gone all fall, Rafaela didn't carry his Worcester line into Boston. The writers have had months of action from other rising prospects to get excited about and that's what they do, it's selling hype.

Or maybe our whole house of cards rested precariously on Bonaci's nebulously immoral shoulders, I dunno.
 

JM3

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Honestly, I think the ratings slide has to do with recency bias. Bleis has been out of action for a long time, Mayer was gone all fall, Rafaela didn't carry his Worcester line into Boston. The writers have had months of action from other rising prospects to get excited about and that's what they do, it's selling hype.

Or maybe our whole house of cards rested precariously on Bonaci's nebulously immoral shoulders, I dunno.
Can't wait to see the system bump once Bonaci is vindicated (no idea, but this seems vaguely optimistic).

View: https://www.instagram.com/p/C2vxkMJgCe7/?igsh=MTIzejk5MzR5MmdoZQ==


Translation:

Everything has been necessary & all that remains is to thank God because His timing is perfect.
 

Merkle's Boner

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Regarding team rankings, I think the issue is some times that we just don’t know the strength of the other systems. I mean, not that the Top 100 is everything, but there are 12 teams that have more guys in the Top 100 than Boston’s ATM three.

But I agree that if we get some breakouts from the likes of a Mikey Romero, Bleis, Cespedes and Yordanny we could shoot back up to the top 5.
 

simplicio

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Law's rankings:

Mayer 8 (11) "Mayer has a beautiful left-handed swing and projects to plus power in his peak years, with plenty of loft in his finish to put the ball over the fence"

Anthony 22 (NR) "The Red Sox previously had the Greek God of Walks; maybe soon they’ll have Roman, God of Swings."

Rafaela 32 (37) "I think he has a chance to be the most valuable defensive outfielder in baseball"

Teel 54 (NR) "He’s an unusually good athlete and runner for a backstop, with excellent bat speed and a swing that produces line drives to the gaps with occasional over-the-fence power"

Bleis 88 (72) "He’ll show five tools, with 60 raw power and 55 speed that would allow him to stay in center long-term if he doesn’t lose speed as he fills out, and he has great bat speed that’s undermined by a poor approach and some extra movement before he gets the barrel going toward the zone."

https://theathletic.com/5245693/2024/02/05/top-100-mlb-prospects-2024-keith-law?source=user-shared-article
 

JM3

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So Law higher of Raf than most.
Yup. He's higher on most of our hitters than most. But will probably still not rank the system high.

Slightly larger quote on C Note:

He’s not the sort of player I typically like with his undisciplined approach, but I think he has a chance to be the most valuable defensive outfielder in baseball, giving him a high floor and thus time to clean up the approach enough for the swing and speed to play.
 

zenax

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Yup. He's higher on most of our hitters than most. But will probably still not rank the system high.
Law's rankings said: Rafaela 32 (37) "I think he has a chance to be the most valuable defensive outfielder in baseball" ---That doesn't seem to say much about his hitting. Do they want another JBJ?
 

simplicio

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Law's rankings said: Rafaela 32 (37) "I think he has a chance to be the most valuable defensive outfielder in baseball" ---That doesn't seem to say much about his hitting. Do they want another JBJ?
I mean, 20s JBJ and not 30s JBJ: Absolutely 100% YES.
 

JM3

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I mean, 20s JBJ and not 30s JBJ: Absolutely 100% YES.
I was going to say basically the same thing. From his age 25-30 seasons, JBJ was an effective, positive player. The pinnacle of the defensive value was '18 when despite a 90 wRC+ he was still worth 3.4 fWAR (& proving the Red Sox can win the title with a defense 1st CF), & of course there was the magical '16 season with the 118 wRC+ & 5.6 fWAR (5.8 bWAR).
 

LogansDad

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Law's rankings said: Rafaela 32 (37) "I think he has a chance to be the most valuable defensive outfielder in baseball" ---That doesn't seem to say much about his hitting. Do they want another JBJ?
Law, I think, tends to care a lot about players' floors, and Rafaela's defense gives him a very high floor relative to his peers. Supposedly, he is so good in CF (I have not seen as much of him as some) that if he hits literally at all, he is a very valuable player. His baserunning is pretty good, too, so he is a guy who could be valuable even as a moderately low OBP kind of player.

If he happens to get better at hitting (he is, after all, only 23)? All bets are off.
 

johnlos

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Law's rankings said: Rafaela 32 (37) "I think he has a chance to be the most valuable defensive outfielder in baseball" ---That doesn't seem to say much about his hitting. Do they want another JBJ?
I don't know of an analysis that averages future value by position in top-100 prospect lists but I would guess JBJ's 14.4 fWAR is greater than average for the 32nd prospect in baseball. JBJ actually was MLB.com's #32 prospect in 2013 and #33 in 2014.

For fun I scraped 2011-2018 of MLB's top-100 lists (since we have a pretty good idea of the outcome for these guys 5 years later). To add a little sample size here are the #30-34 prospects in that range:
77678

Of these 38 non-JBJ rankings only 13 guys eclipsed or (by my estimation) will eclipse JBJ's fWAR. I included both Carlos Martinez rankings in those 13 and figure from the 2018 class only Verdugo will make it (although Wright and Soroka have a chance at the moment only Verdugo is close).

So there ya go: JBJ is a 63rd %ile outcome. We should be happy if CR becomes the next JBJ.
 

zenax

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We should be happy if CR becomes the next JBJ.
In his 11 MLB seasons, JBJ hit .225/.303/.381/.684 and in HOF Stats:

Gray Ink
Batting - 1 (3128th), Average HOFer ˜ 144
Hall of Fame Monitor
Batting - 12 (1277th), Likely HOFer ˜ 100
Hall of Fame Standards
Batting - 8 (2106th), Average HOFer ˜ 50
JAWS
Center Field (163rd):
16.9 career WAR | 18.6 7yr-peak WAR | 17.8 JAWS | 2.3 WAR/162
Average HOF CF (out of 19):
71.6 career WAR | 44.7 7yr-peak WAR | 58.2 JAWS | 5.4 WAR/162 (stats from baseball-reference)

So the question is, What wins more ball games: offense or defense?
 

johnlos

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In his 11 MLB seasons, JBJ hit .225/.303/.381/.684 and in HOF Stats:

Gray Ink
Batting - 1 (3128th), Average HOFer ˜ 144
Hall of Fame Monitor
Batting - 12 (1277th), Likely HOFer ˜ 100
Hall of Fame Standards
Batting - 8 (2106th), Average HOFer ˜ 50
JAWS
Center Field (163rd):
16.9 career WAR | 18.6 7yr-peak WAR | 17.8 JAWS | 2.3 WAR/162
Average HOF CF (out of 19):
71.6 career WAR | 44.7 7yr-peak WAR | 58.2 JAWS | 5.4 WAR/162 (stats from baseball-reference)

So the question is, What wins more ball games: offense or defense?
I'm honestly not sure what argument you're trying to build here. JBJ had three years he went 123, 118, and 118 in wRC+ (2015, 2016, and 2020). He was quite valuable in those years. Even when he was an 89-90wRC+ guy from 2017-2019 he put up 2.4, 3.4, and 1.9 fWAR because of his defense.

With stats like those, most teams in baseball would have started him over that 6 year stretch, and as I argued above that's a 63rd%ile outcome for a prospect in the 30-34 range. While we can dream on CR learning to hit, we'd be lucky to get 6 years of this quality from him.
 

simplicio

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Offense is typically going to be more valuable overall, but I'm with johnlos in not understanding what point you're trying to make or why you're comparing JBJ to HOF players.
 

JM3

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Well, there's a DH & not a DF... so if you can literally only do 1, it better be hitting. But if you have an elite carrying skill it gives you more opportunities to try to develop the rest.
 

JM3

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MassLive is producing their own top 25 list. Which reminds me I need to finish my own full system rankings update. Most of the way done, just need to add the new IFAs.

Anyway ML is dropping 5 a day this week. going to put SPs rank & then my last rank in parens:

25) Kristian Campbell (46, 23)
24) Franklin Arias (31, 25)
23) Nathan Hickey (16, 29)
22) Elmer Rodriguez-Cruz (25, 30)
21) Eddinson Paulino (17, 16)

https://www.masslive.com/redsox/2024/02/red-sox-compensation-pick-for-xander-bogaerts-lands-on-masslives-top-25.html
 

zenax

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or why you're comparing JBJ to HOF players.
The point is that his was not remotely close to a HOF player. Yes, he was a very good fielder but for most of the time there were enough bats surrounding him that they could afford to keep him for his glove and occasional hot streaks at the plate. In six of his eleven seasons, he played in fewer than 100 games and in his rookie season, he started the first 10 games before they decided his .097 batting average wasn't enough.
 

JM3

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MassLive is producing their own top 25 list. Which reminds me I need to finish my own full system rankings update. Most of the way done, just need to add the new IFAs.

Anyway ML is dropping 5 a day this week. going to put SPs rank & then my last rank in parens:

25) Kristian Campbell (46, 23)
24) Franklin Arias (31, 25)
23) Nathan Hickey (16, 29)
22) Elmer Rodriguez-Cruz (25, 30)
21) Eddinson Paulino (17, 16)

https://www.masslive.com/redsox/2024/02/red-sox-compensation-pick-for-xander-bogaerts-lands-on-masslives-top-25.html
20) Hunter Dobbins (23, 18)
19) Antonio Anderson (22, 28)
18) Yordanny Monegro (20, 7)
17) Blaze Jordan (19, 15)
16) Allan Castro (14, 17)

https://www.masslive.com/redsox/2024/02/red-sox-23-pick-with-at-least-20-hr-potential-cracks-masslives-top-25.html
 

JM3

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Here's the MassLive YORDANNY writeup. He's going to hopefully make a lot of people feel silly for how late they're going to be hopping on the wagon.

Report: The 6-foot-4, 180-pounder was not a star amateur prospect, signing for just $35,000. But a breakout season in 2023 has landed him as Boston’s 18 prospect heading into 2024. He throws a four-seam fastball, two-seam fastball, curveball, cutter and changeup. He began throwing the two-seamer and cutter during spring training 2023 with the help of pitching coordinator. Walter Miranda. He has been working to improve his changeup. His best secondary pitch is his curveball, which has 12-to-6 break. MLB Pipeline grades Monegro’s curveball 60 on the 20-80 grading scale.
 

JM3

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Having only read the headline so far I'm going to go with "not great".

View: https://twitter.com/brendan_camp/status/1755046677956727020


He did start out the season great with a nice stretch of 6 starts in Salem & 4 for Greenville before struggling for the rest of the season (6.51 ERA in his last 13 starts). Overall, too many walks.

All told, Rogers produced a 5.52 ERA (but a much more respectable 4.23 FIP) to go along with 102 punchouts and 48 walks in 17 starts (75 innings) for Greenville last season. Among those in the South Atlantic League who also eclipsed the 70-inning threshold in 2023, Rogers ranked fourth in strikeouts per nine innings (12.24), sixth in strikeout rate (30.9 percent), 16th in batting average against (.238), 21st in groundball rate (42.3 percent), 20th in swinging-strike rate (13.4 percent), 21st in FIP, and 14th in xFIP (4.19), per FanGraphs.
Rogers turned 23 a couple weeks ago & is a fairly rare potential lefty starter in the org, although he seems to profile more like a reliever unless he can take some jumps in a couple areas.


View: https://twitter.com/PeakVelocity/status/1743495527818268719


I have Rogers #35, SP has him 34th. We but have him as the #2 LHP prospect (I have him 1 behind Penrod, SP has him behind Walter).

https://bloggingtheredsox.com/2024/02/06/how-did-red-sox-pitching-prospect-dalton-rogers-fare-in-first-full-pro-season/

The stuff plays if he can get the command together...

View: https://twitter.com/Prospect_Tilt/status/1750545566180778412
 

nighthob

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Here's the MassLive YORDANNY writeup. He's going to hopefully make a lot of people feel silly for how late they're going to be hopping on the wagon.
Yeah, that curve of his is absolutely ridiculous.
 

Jimbodandy

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MassLive is producing their own top 25 list. Which reminds me I need to finish my own full system rankings update. Most of the way done, just need to add the new IFAs.

Anyway ML is dropping 5 a day this week. going to put SPs rank & then my last rank in parens:

25) Kristian Campbell (46, 23)
24) Franklin Arias (31, 25)
23) Nathan Hickey (16, 29)
22) Elmer Rodriguez-Cruz (25, 30)
21) Eddinson Paulino (17, 16)

https://www.masslive.com/redsox/2024/02/red-sox-compensation-pick-for-xander-bogaerts-lands-on-masslives-top-25.html
I like that you're seeing Campbell. Lots of good to hope on there.

Of course some Blaze love is nice and let's keep blowing the horn for Yordanny. Regarding the latter, he had 60Ks and 17BB in 40.2IP as a 20yo in Salem (think 19yo because covid year), but the SP guys still have him as a "ceiling of a back-end starter" but also "a high variance arm". He's 6'4" 180 as a 21YO, plenty of room to develop physically. I do not understand.