Nava DFA

[Plympton91]

Like I said, an organization that focuses on what players can do, instead of what they can't.

 

[mauidano]

Damn Rays, but happy he got picked up.

Yeah, damn Rays. Could have been worse I suppose. Could have been NY. But such a likable guy, hope he gets a lot of PT and does well there. Thanks for the memories.

 

[Rasputin]

Like I said, an organization that focuses on what players can do, instead of what they can't.

 
There's only ever been one thing he was good at and he hasn't been good at it this year. When you consider how old he is, you can hardly chalk this one up as a failure of anyone. 

 

[Plympton91]

There's only ever been one thing he was good at and he hasn't been good at it this year. When you consider how old he is, you can hardly chalk this one up as a failure of anyone.

John Farrell buried Daniel Nava during a year he finished 9th in the league in hitting because, hunch. Then he gave his job to a washed up, injured shell of what used to be Grady Sizemore because he went into a perfectly normal season opening slump. Then this year, Nava played hurt because he knew his manager was looking for any possible excuse to bury him again, and predictably couldn't succeed.

Maybe that's why John Farrell has been a last place manager in all but one of his major league seasons.

 

[rembrat]

Yea that's why.

 

[Hee Sox Choi]

P91 vs. Rembrat.  Who do I root for?!?!

 

[Savin Hillbilly]

John Farrell buried Daniel Nava during a year he finished 9th in the league in hitting because, hunch.

This is especially egregious because it worked out so poorly.
 

Then he gave his job to a washed up, injured shell of what used to be Grady Sizemore because he went into a perfectly normal season opening slump.

This is the closest thing you have to a point. But Farrell gave him three weeks of rope. He was atrocious. And it's not like he had had a long history of success; he'd been an ordinary hitter except for 2013, which was pretty heavily BABIP-goosed. In the meantime, Sizemore was a former All-Star who had started the year blazing hot. You're basically asking Farrell to have treated Nava like a trusted veteran instead of a guy who had hit big for one (probably somewhat lucky) year.

I will grant you this much: the FO pretty much cooked Nava in 2014 by acquiring Sizemore instead of a RHH extra OF like Chris Young. Nava in an ordinary year (i.e. not 2013) is a platoon player. In 2014 Ben gave Farrell a roster where Nava couldn't be platooned. That's not Nava's fault, but it's not Farrell's either.

 

Then this year, Nava played hurt because he knew his manager was looking for any possible excuse to bury him again, and predictably couldn't succeed.

Hurt or not, Nava sucked--and this time, he sucked in the context of an OF logjam where most of his competitors were better defenders.

 

[E5 Yaz]

Maybe that's why John Farrell has been a last place manager in all but one of his major league seasons.

 
Farrell didn't finish last in either of his two Toronto seasons

 

[Adrian's Dome]

This is especially egregious because it worked out so poorly.
 

This is the closest thing you have to a point. But Farrell gave him three weeks of rope. He was atrocious. And it's not like he had had a long history of success; he'd been an ordinary hitter except for 2013, which was pretty heavily BABIP-goosed. In the meantime, Sizemore was a former All-Star who had started the year blazing hot. You're basically asking Farrell to have treated Nava like a trusted veteran instead of a guy who had hit big for one (probably somewhat lucky) year.

I will grant you this much: the FO pretty much cooked Nava in 2014 by acquiring Sizemore instead of a RHH extra OF like Chris Young. Nava in an ordinary year (i.e. not 2013) is a platoon player. In 2014 Ben gave Farrell a roster where Nava couldn't be platooned. That's not Nava's fault, but it's not Farrell's either.

 

Hurt or not, Nava sucked--and this time, he sucked in the context of an OF logjam where most of his competitors were better defenders.

 
The end result of 2013 should have zero bearing on what was a shitty decision. Yeah, it worked out, but that's not the point. Look up Gomes' stats against all those RHP he started against then come back at how that wasn't a terrible decision to sit Nava for seemingly no reason.
 
Nava has always been a bit of a platoon player, but an extremely effective one on the heavy side of the platoon in that he mashes RHP. With vast majority of MLB pitching is right handed, there's a lot of value in a guy like that, especially if he doesn't kill you on defense.
 
Thirdly, there are no major leaguers who've never gone through a three-week slump. It happens, and to have your entire job based on a small sample size as opposed to the entire body of work the years before is shortsighted, especially when you're losing your job to the Wade Miller of outfielders.

 

[Detts]

 
Farrell didn't finish last in either of his two Toronto seasons

 
Please don't try to confuse Plymt with facts.

 

[Toe Nash]

I know it was just posted a page ago but you guys might want to read my article. I cover most of this stuff and while I am pro-Nava I think I'm relatively fair:
 
http://sonsofsamhorn.com/baseball/teams/al-east/boston-red-sox/red-sox-outfielder-daniel-nava-has-been-dfad/
 
I think where I come down is that sitting him in the WS was definitely stupid, but in the other situations most teams probably would have made the same choices. In retrospect, I would have liked them to have given him more of a shot instead of signing Crawford in 2011 (but who would have known Crawford would be SO bad), and in 2012 with Crawford on the shelf they should have given him a longer look...but again, most teams ignore the career minor leaguer too. I wouldn't count him out now but it's probably less than a 50% chance he does anything going forward, and he's not likely to be a part of the next good Sox team regardless. Still, I wish they had treated him a little better.

 

[Savin Hillbilly]

Nava has always been a bit of a platoon player

No, he hasn't. He's always been an extreme platoon player. His identification as a switch-hitter created some confusion about that, but the record should have cleared up that confusion for neutral observers long ago. He has a career .581 OPS vs. LHP. His best single-season OPS vs. LHP was .647 in 2013. He can't hit LHP for shit. Full stop.
 

but an extremely effective one on the heavy side of the platoon in that he mashes RHP.

He does not "mash" RHP. He has never "mashed" anybody. He was, at his peak, a very effective on-base machine vs. RHP thanks to a good walk rate and excellent BABIP. But his career ISO vs. RHP is .130, and in his best season, 2013, it was .162. Those would be fine power numbers for a middle infielder or a CF. For a mediocre defensive corner OF, they're, well, mediocre.
 

With vast majority of MLB pitching is right handed, there's a lot of value in a guy like that, especially if he doesn't kill you on defense.

"Kill you on defense" is subjective, and there's been a lot of division on this board about how bad an OF he was, but he has certainly never been better than fringe-average, and probably not that good.
 

Thirdly, there are no major leaguers who've never gone through a three-week slump. It happens, and to have your entire job based on a small sample size as opposed to the entire body of work the years before is shortsighted, especially when you're losing your job to the Wade Miller of outfielders.

"The entire body of work the years before", at the beginning of the 2014 season, was just 1041 PA of above-average but not outstanding offense for a corner OF (.274/.369/.413) plus mediocre defense. And again, remember that Sizemore, at the time Victorino returned, had had a pretty hot start--and unlike Nava, couldn't be optioned. So the team's only choice besides demoting Nava was to demote JBJ and play Victorino in CF--thus giving us a defensive OF vs. RHP of Sizemore/Victorino/Nava and vs. LHP of Gomes/Victorino/Sizemore. Maybe that would have been a better choice, but with Nava featuring a .140/.240/.269 line at the time, and JBJ making everybody ooh and aah in CF, it's pretty easy to see why they didn't think so.

Look, I love the Nava story and I wish it had lasted longer. But it's really hard to make a rational case that at any point along the way--with the *possible* exception of the 2013 postseason, and I think it's too easy to lean on the numbers there to say Farrell goofed and got lucky--Farrell didn't give Nava the best opportunities that his own performance and the roster situation allowed for.

 

[Plympton91]

It is certainly fair to pin the piss poor roster construction of 2014 on Ben Cherington's coronation of an overmatched JBJ as the everyday CF come hell, high water, injury or nonperformance.

It is also true that currently Nava is the 5th outfielder on a roster with 4 outfield slots plus Holt able to play everywhere. I don't have any issue with designating Nava right now given how history played out.

It is humorous to read the same people prIsing BC for his "process" despite the result in other threads, and excusing JF for his hunches in this one because of the results.

But, I get it. There is a knee jerk tendency to defend the organization among the kids. I used to be one of the DieHards myself. Then you see the same stories recur and you know that In fact, Brian Rose isn't going to make everyone forget Roger Clemens, no matter how much of a special person Peter Gammons says he is.

 

[DJnVa]

 There is a knee jerk tendency to defend the organization among the kids.

 

What about your knee-jerk tendency to make factual errors in your posts, then completely ignore people that call them out?
 
Do you think engaging them and correcting your mistakes would lead to a better discussion than everyone just shouting into the wind?

 

[Rovin Romine]

I guess the question is really what does Farrell do well at this point?   I'm not sure he develops young players or pitchers.  I'm also not sure he's able to strategically manage games so as to keep a team that's on the cusp of contention in actual contention.  (That said, we don't know how much latitude Farrell has as far as who he's being instructed to play.)
 
I've given him the benefit of the doubt, but I think its time for a reboot.  

 

[Plympton91]

 
What about your knee-jerk tendency to make factual errors in your posts, then completely ignore people that call them out?
 
Do you think engaging them and correcting your mistakes would lead to a better discussion than everyone just shouting into the wind?

I feel I do that regularly, particularly when they are material to the overall point.