Yeah, but that indicts Manning at least as much as Brees.
I’m confident this panel will see Manning as an automatic, but if he is so is Brees. Better persona on commercials doesn’t count.
NFL 100 All-Time Team Co-Hosted by Bill Belichick
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I’m confident this panel will see Manning as an automatic, but if he is so is Brees. Better persona on commercials doesn’t count.
My comment was an indictment on an over-reliance on stats to rank players from different eras, playing under different rules, without blending in some context and analysis. In particular as posted there has been a hyper-inflation in passing stats, post Polian temper-tantrum, re DB-physical play, and then rules protecting QBs. So in that regard my comment suggests that a discount be applied to the current stats to those of past periods. Some time ago I used Marino #s as a baseline and came up with a (IIRC) a 12-15% inflation in top-end QB passing stats post Polian.
And Brees was mentioned, only because his name came up, presumably because he broke Peyton's TD record last night.
And fwiw, I view Peyton as a top 3-5-ish alltime QB (Brady-Montana-(Peyton-Elway-Marino-Favre), and a better QB than Brees (top 10-12).
Old time quarterback possibility is Sid Luckman, QB for four Bears NFL Title teams, two of them over Sammy Baugh led Redskins teams. Luckman threw five TD passes in one of them. Kind of light in career passing yards though.
Is it weird QB is the position where I dislike the largest portion of players? I don’t like Elway, Manning, Rodgers or Favre.
Maybe until 1965, but Johnny U was awful, legitimately awful after that. He had a "decent season" in '67 when he had an 83.6 passer rating and actually threw more td's than picks (20-16), but aside from that, he was just accumulating counting stats and finished with a worse passer rating than Starr did over the course of his career. Unitas' best seasons were 1956-60, and a few good seasons in the early 60's. Unitas didn't win a single playoff game in the 1960's. Everyone remembers the Super Bowl win in 1971, but at that point, Unitas was a mess. Yes, Starr had some good players around him, but so did Unitas. Lenny Moore (RB), Jim Parker (G) and John Mackey (TE) are all top 100 all time player, and so is Geno Marchetti from their defense,
Bart Starr ruled the NFL in the late '60's though.
It makes sense. They tend to be the faces of the franchises you don’t like usually.
Unitas won the MVP in 1967 so if you thnk him awful after 1965, we disagree. He hen got hurt in the '68 pre-season (hello Earl Morrall) and was never the same QB, but did manage to lead the Colts to a SB win in 1970.
IMO most people think him a better QB than Starr. Unitas had more pro-bowl awards (10 to 4), more 1st team all-pro awards (5-1) than Starr, and 3 MVPs to Starr's 1-MVP. award
And yes Unitas had several all-time players on his team, but nothing like the cast that Starr had around him.particularly on defense. (where there were 6 HoF guys starting).
If you prefer Starr, NP.
Unitas was considered the GOAT until Joe Montana came along. His at least one TD in 47 straight games was talked about something like DiMaggio’s 56 game hitting streak and was the record until Brees, Brady and Peyton exceeded it. Starr never exceeded 16 TDs in a season, never led the league in TD passes. Unitas had eight seasons with 20 or over and led the league four times. Sure, Starr’s teams were running teams with Hornung and Taylor, as directed by Lombardi, but that’s the breaks.
Without getting too into the statistical weeds, I think the argument can be made that Elway led the Broncos to 5 SB, and won 2, while Young really only has 1
SB to his credit.
SB to his credit.
I think that's fair. But you also have to recognize that Elway wasn't a very good postseason player:
22 games, 651 attempts, 355 completions, 54.5% completion, 4,964 yards, 27 touchdowns, 21 interceptions, a 79.7 quarterback rating and a 14-8 record.
Elway has a great reputation because those early Bronco SB teams were not loaded with talent, while Young took over a championship winning machine with the best WR of all time. When Elway got a great supporting cast he won two SBs, even though he was at the end of his career. He also has been hero-worshipped for decades, which helps on lists like these.
I agree that Young is underrated, his passing numbers are phenomenal even by today's standards and he was extremely efficient with the ball. If he played today I think his career numbers would look similar to Aaron Rodgers.
I don't prefer Starr over Unitas. I'm just saying their career peaks didn't really overlap and Starr was certainly more successful in the 60's than Unitas (Unitas was incredible in the late 50's-early 60's). Unitas won the MVP in 1967 with an 83.6 qb rating. He threw 20td's to 16 interceptions. To put that in perspective, Starr had a 105.0 QBR in '66, and a 104.3 in '68. In 1967, Starr had a down regular season, but then won the NFL Championship (the 2nd of 3 in a row), going 44/71 for 615 yards, 4td, 1int and a 102.3 QBR over the 3 games. Earl Morrall won the MVP with the same exact Baltimore team the following year filling in for Unitas and had a much, much better season than Unitas had in '67. Then they benched Morrall and went back to Unitas in '69 and he was awful.
In the 1970 season, when they won the Super Bowl, Unitas had a 65.1 QBR with 14td's and 18ints. In the 3 playoff games, he went 20/56 for 478 yards and 4td's/2ints and a 76.3QBR. They won those games 17-0, 27-17 and 16-13, and their defense picked off 7 passes in 3 games, so if we're going to ding Starr as a game manager who relied on his defense, Unitas' Super Bowl run was exactly that, only much worse than what Starr did.
In the 1960's, the entire decade, Unitas appeared in two playoff games, losing both, in 1964 and 1967. They lost those two games 27-0 and 16-7 to Cleveland and the Jets. Meanwhile, in the 60's, Starr was 9-1 in the playoffs, won 3 championships, threw for 17td's, 3 ints, and had a career playoff QB rating of 104.8. It's kind of like comparing 2000's Peyton Manning to 2000's Tom Brady, if you removed all of Manning's playoff wins and made Manning's stats much more comparable, if not worse in some respects, to Brady's.
Again, I'm not saying Unitas wasn't great, and he should be on the top 100, but IMO, Starr was the best QB of his time, which was the 60's (more specifically, '64 onward). I just think Unitas' "time" was before Starr's.
I'm not even sure that Starr was the best QB in his conference in the 60's. You can make a very strong case for Sonny Jurgensen as a much more prolific passer than Starr who unfortunately played for some Eagles and Redskins teams that were terrible defensively and really couldn't run the ball at all. He was the Dan Marino of his day.
This is worth watching: http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-films-presents/09000d5d81cfb36e/Did-you-ever-see-Sonny-play
Lombardi himself told Jurgensen “We wouldn’t have lost a game if you’d been at Green Bay.”
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In the 1960's, the entire decade, Unitas appeared in two playoff games, losing both, in 1964 and 1967. They lost those two games 27-0 and 16-7 to Cleveland and the Jets.
Unitas came into SB3 late in the 3rd qtr in relief of Morrall who could do nothing against the Jets D, and was losing 13-0. Unitas then outscored the Jets 7-3.
To stick that loss on Unitas is kind of BS.
And as aleady posted Unitas was injured in the '68 pre-season (and Morrall led the Colts to SB3) and was never the same QB after that But he did manage to lead the Colts to a SB win in 1970. So his championship bookends were 1958/1970. Starr's was much shorter 1961/1967.
Contrary to your assertion, Unitas and Starr's carreers almost perfectly overlapped each other, in that same time period late 50s to early 1970s, Unitas was all-pro 5 times to Starr's once, MVP 3-times to Starr's once, and the was a 10-X pro bowler to Starr's 4-times . They were competitors, and interestingly enough Unitas's Colts was just one of two teams to have a winning record against Starr's Packers.
You may assert that Starr (who I suggested earlier would make the 100 team, along with Unitas, Graham and Baugh) was the best QB of his time, but the record, awards and accolades from impartial sources at the time they competed would indicate that Unitas was recognized as the better QB.
Unitas came into SB3 late in the 3rd qtr in relief of Morrall who could do nothing against the Jets D, and was losing 13-0. Unitas then outscored the Jets 7-3.
To stick that loss on Unitas is kind of BS.
And as aleady posted Unitas was injured in the '68 pre-season (and Morrall led the Colts to SB3) and was never the same QB after that But he did manage to lead the Colts to a SB win in 1970. So his championship bookends were 1958/1970. Starr's was much shorter 1961/1967.
Contrary to your assertion, Unitas and Starr's carreers almost perfectly overlapped each other, in that same time period late 50s to early 1970s, Unitas was all-pro 5 times to Starr's once, MVP 3-times to Starr's once, and the was a 10-X pro bowler to Starr's 4-times . They were competitors, and interestingly enough Unitas's Colts was just one of two teams to have a winning record against Starr's Packers.
You may assert that Starr (who I suggested earlier would make the 100 team, along with Unitas, Graham and Baugh) was the best QB of his time, but the record, awards and accolades from impartial sources at the time they competed would indicate that Unitas was recognized as the better QB.
What it should be (what I would vote)
Baugh
Graham
Luckman
Montana
Elway
Young (need a running representative, better passer than Randall or Vick)
Peyton M
Brady
Rodgers
Brees
What it will be
(show talking point in parantheses)
Baugh (ahead of his time)
Graham (winner)
Luckman or Unitas
Starr (great leader)
Montana (winner, faced some of the most ferocious defenses of all-time)
Marino (quick release)
Favre (no fear)
Peyton (funny guy)
Brady (knew where everyone was supposed to be, teammates and opponents)
Elway (good runner) or Brees (deep ball or did a lot with lack of size)
Baugh
Graham
Luckman
Montana
Elway
Young (need a running representative, better passer than Randall or Vick)
Peyton M
Brady
Rodgers
Brees
What it will be
(show talking point in parantheses)
Baugh (ahead of his time)
Graham (winner)
Luckman or Unitas
Starr (great leader)
Montana (winner, faced some of the most ferocious defenses of all-time)
Marino (quick release)
Favre (no fear)
Peyton (funny guy)
Brady (knew where everyone was supposed to be, teammates and opponents)
Elway (good runner) or Brees (deep ball or did a lot with lack of size)
I didn't say their careers didn't overlap, I said their "career peaks" didn't overlap. Bart Starr was not a very good QB in the 1950's, whereas Unitas was an absolute stud. But this conversation started when someone said that Unitas was the best QB of the 1960's. I won't put the loss on Unitas in SB3 if you don't want, but does that make it better? He still has zero wins in the playoffs in the 1960's. He got hurt in 68, but what about the rest of the decade? Does it change anything that his backup in 1968 won the NFL MVP award? Here are the stats of Unitas and Starr from 1960-1969:
Guy #1
76-39-3 (0 playoff wins)
55.3% completion rate
26,548 yards
182td's
165int's
79.0 QBR
Guy #2
81-32-4 (9-1 in the playoffs with 5 championships, including 3 in a row)
58.9% completion rate
19,126 yards
125td's
90ints
87.7 QBR
Guy #2 is, not Unitas. I've never asserted that Starr was the best QB of all time. I'm saying that Bart Starr was the best QB of the 1960's and looking at those numbers, I'm not sure what the argument is against? I'm not even arguing that Starr was a better QB over the course of his career than Unitas. I think Unitas probably was a better QB given how good he was early on, but again, I'm just talking about the 1960's.
FTR, I don't care, even a little bit, about pro bowls and all-pros and MVP awards. Bill Belichick has won NFL coach of the year 3 times. Shula won it 4 times. Does anyone believe that Shula was a better coach? Tom Brady won the MVP 3 times, Manning won it 5 times, how much weight should we give that? Or how about Manning's 7 time all-pro, versus Brady's 3?
These arguments against winning always bother me because it was the same exact arguments we heard in the early 2000's about Tom Brady. He's a game manager, his defense is carrying him, he's got weapons around him, other guy'stats are better, look at the awards, etc. Meanwhile, Unitas wins a Super Bowl in 1971 in which he completed 3 out of 9 passes for 88 yards, 1td and 2 ints and he gets benched before halftime and we're saying he "lead the Colts to a Championship." If he did, we are way underselling Peyton Manning leading the Broncos to the Super Bowl in 2015.
Did you watch football in the 60s?
The Packers primarily won on defense and a devastating ground game.
The Colts primarily won on the arm of Unitas.
Tthe Packers were the best NFL team in the 60s.
And while you may not care, as attested to by those who watched them play, and the all-pros, pro bowls and MVPS won, Unitas was the best QB.
YMMV
The Packers primarily won on defense and a devastating ground game.
The Colts primarily won on the arm of Unitas.
Tthe Packers were the best NFL team in the 60s.
And while you may not care, as attested to by those who watched them play, and the all-pros, pro bowls and MVPS won, Unitas was the best QB.
YMMV
I won't be surprised if Staubach finds his way onto the team.
He doesn't have the stats of the others, but he was a traditional figure in the way the position was played.
The most butt-hurt by exclusion are likely to be Tarkenton and Bradshaw.
He doesn't have the stats of the others, but he was a traditional figure in the way the position was played.
The most butt-hurt by exclusion are likely to be Tarkenton and Bradshaw.
IMO: Graham, Unitas, Montana, Marino, Manning and Brady are locks.
Assuming 10, the other four are more arguable. I'll guess: Baugh, Elway, Favre and Brees. I hate the Elway and Favre selections but I don't have a strong opinion of who I would include over either of them.
I could also see: Jorgensen, Starr, Luckman, Staubach, Rodgers (instead of Brees).
Can't see: Young, Tarkenton, Bradshaw
For Rodgers/Brees, if both make it then you have 40% of the team (Manning, Brady, Brees, Rodgers) who played in the last 20 years when the passing game looks nothing like it did in the 70s and 80s, to say nothing of what it looked like prior to that. Given their emphasis on including pioneers and guys from when the NFL was in its infancy I can't see them taking all four of these guys. Given that Manning and Brady are locks, I think only one or Brees/Rodgers makes it.
Assuming 10, the other four are more arguable. I'll guess: Baugh, Elway, Favre and Brees. I hate the Elway and Favre selections but I don't have a strong opinion of who I would include over either of them.
I could also see: Jorgensen, Starr, Luckman, Staubach, Rodgers (instead of Brees).
Can't see: Young, Tarkenton, Bradshaw
For Rodgers/Brees, if both make it then you have 40% of the team (Manning, Brady, Brees, Rodgers) who played in the last 20 years when the passing game looks nothing like it did in the 70s and 80s, to say nothing of what it looked like prior to that. Given their emphasis on including pioneers and guys from when the NFL was in its infancy I can't see them taking all four of these guys. Given that Manning and Brady are locks, I think only one or Brees/Rodgers makes it.
If you mean reveal those two in advance, no. If you mean are those two in the top 10 or whatever, every time.
Manning and Brady would be a hoot, though I am guessing blindly that Peyton is little more into the history than TB12. Maybe not blindly ... Archie would be the reason. Marino and Manning is my bet
Steve Young. Hm. I like him more than most people do, but Steve Young over John Elway is full-on BANANAS.
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Montana and Young threw to peak Jerry Rice who may be the greatest football player of all time. Where would they have been without him?
I mean, I'm not sure if I'd put Young over Elway, but Young was a statistically much better QB, and they were contemporaries so you can't argue it was only because of era differences. Elway has better career numbers because he played longer, which I don't think Young should be penalized for. Young had a better supporting cast, although towards the second half of his career Elway's teams were pretty loaded.
There's a reason those Denver teams were pretty loaded...
http://yourteamcheats.com/DEN#Salarycapgate-1996
I think (?) this is tongue in cheek, but Rice at ages 39 and and 40 caught a combined 175 passes for 2,350 yards and 16 TDs from Rich Gannon.
Also, in 1986, Montana missed 8 weeks of the season. Rice caught passes from some guys named Jeff Kemp and Mike Moroski. In those 8 games he had 40 catches for 820 yards and 9 TDs. Projected to a full season that is 80 catches for 1,640 yards and 18 TDs.
I know he wore stickum, but simply put, there's no discussion over whether Jerry Rice was the greatest WR ever. It's not even really close, is it?
I mean, consider this. In 2004, at the tender age of 42, Jerry Rice played 11 games with Seattle, who was quarterbacked by Matt "58.9%" Hasselbeck. In those 11 games, Rice caught 25 passes for 362 yards (14.5 ypc) and 3 td. At 42. Those numbers would project to 36 rec, 527 yds, and 4 TD. And that stat line would basically be the #3 receiver for the 2019 New England Patriots.
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Really? Steve Young's peak from 1991-1997 could very well be the best that ANYONE has ever played QB. During that time he led the league in the following categories:
Completion % - 5x
TDs - 3x
INT% - 2x
Y/A - 5x
AY/A - 6x
QB Rating - 6x
Do you know how many times Elway led the league in any of those categories COMBINED? ZERO. Not once.
Peak Steve Young is better than peak Elway by a VERY wide margin - A lot of their prime years overlapped and Young was a much better QB pretty much every year that they were both starters. Hell, in 1998, when TD dragged Elway's carcass to his second title, Steve Young led the league in YPG and TDs and was better than Elway in every conceivable way. If Young hadn't been buried in the USFL, then stuck on a TERRIBLE Tampa team and finally behind one of the top 3 QBs of all time, this wouldn't even be a discussion.
Yup, nobody wears the GOAT crowd quite like Rice. I think you could argue that Randy Moss was more physically gifted and if you knew you were getting both of them for one game at their absolute peak you might take Moss, but his career production isn't even close to Rice.
I think one of Bradshaw, Staubach or Tarkenton will make their list. if you break the logical candidates down roughly by "eras" those are the three guys who played most of their careers in the 70s. I dont think they'd skip an entire decade, as most of the other QBs fall pretty neatly into Old Timey Guys (Baugh, Luckman, Graham), 50s-60s Guys (Unitas, Starr) 80s-90s Guys (Favre, Elway, Montana, Marino, Fouts, Moon, Young, Jim Kelly, Aikman) and Modern Guys (Brady, P. Manning, Brees, Rodgers, Warner).
I think it will be
Baugh, Luckman, Graham
Unitas
Staubach (combo of wins/stats)
Favre, Elway, Montana
Brady, P. Manning.
If they add one more I could see it being Tarkenton. When he retired, he was the all time leader in yards and TDs, and 40 years after he retired he's still 10th all time in TD's and 12th in yards.
12. Young
13. Rodgers
I think it will be
Baugh, Luckman, Graham
Unitas
Staubach (combo of wins/stats)
Favre, Elway, Montana
Brady, P. Manning.
If they add one more I could see it being Tarkenton. When he retired, he was the all time leader in yards and TDs, and 40 years after he retired he's still 10th all time in TD's and 12th in yards.
12. Young
13. Rodgers
Rice was unquestionably the greatest receiver of all time, maybe the best player (although I'll take Jim Brown). To tell the complete story, and the item people don't go to today, is that Rice was a crybaby about getting the ball enough times (believe it or not). Maybe you had to be watching and listening to sports talk radio in the Bay Area to hear it, but it was there, particularly in the Super Bowl winning year of 1988. Actually, he did have "only" 64 receptions that year, but 11 and a TD in the SB. I liked John Taylor on those teams better. No prima donna stuff.
Not even Randy Moss thinks Randy Moss was better than Jerry Rice. I doubt Randy Moss's mom thinks Randy Moss was better than Jerry Rice.
He's head-and-shoulders above #2 on the list, perhaps moreso than any other NFL position. Both his career stats and his rate stats dwarf the competition unless you cherry-pick specific other player-years like Moss '03 or '07.
Also, look at the 1986 Broncos roster. Elway took that group of JAGs to a Super Bowl.
Not sure the teams he took to the Super Bowl the next few times were much better.
Meanwhile, Young was plugged into a fully-formed juggernaut.
There was never a time during Elway's prime that I would have given any consideration to choosing Steve Young over him.
Wow. Thanks for enlightening me. (That reads disingenuous and snarky, but I’m being sincere.) I still think that, regardless of those stats, it would be pretty surprising if the crew of analysts behind the project opt for Young over Elway, but I’m happy to have my perspective widened. Thanks.
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That speaks as much to the relative weakness of the AFC in the late 80s as it does to Elway's "greatness". They beat Tony Eason (largely due to him taking a safety from Rulon Jones, who was a beast that season) and yes, "The Drive" by Elway was impressive but that Browns team was no juggernaut. The '87 Broncos made it back in the strike year thanks to Byner's fumble but the entire league was in disarray with replacement players and a scramble at the end of the year. And they got annihilated in the Super Bowl. The 1989 team was absolutely CARRIED by the defense (best in the league in points allowed and third in yards allowed, one-two punch of Fletcher and Mecklenburg at LB and a fantastic secondary - Dennis Smith and Steve Atwater were awesome together) and they still got walloped in that Super Bowl.
Elway is probably the most overrated QB of his time and Young the most underrated.
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Also it's weird they faced each other so rarely but Elway never beat the other best (the better) quarterback in his Conference...0-2 vs Marino. Think of how many times Brady and Peyton faced off and they each won a slew of big games against the other. It's so odd.