Patriots HOF Finalists

Who are you voting for?


  • Total voters
    121

E5 Yaz

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Of the three, there's one that is severely overdue
 

tims4wins

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Feels like it is Seymour's year. I think that, for better or for worse, Vrabel beating the Pats in the playoffs will have some effect on the vote.

I can't ever vote for Parcells because of how he left the franchise. I can deal with acrimonious break-ups. But he actively, intentionally damaged the franchise upon his departure. That to me makes him a non-starter. Plus he was only in town for 4 seasons and his career record was 32-32.
 

Shaky Walton

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I cannot imagine voting for Parcells unless and until every deserving player makes it in first. Which means, for me, probably never. But certainly not when Seymour, who I think is a very easy choice this year, and Vrabel are candidates.

I get all of the arguments. He brought change and winning to the franchise, and changed it from a Charlie Brownish team to a serious operation, capable of winning it all. He begot Belichick. He left partially because Kraft mismanaged him. At the same time, he violated his cardinal principle, and inserted an "I" in "team." He allowed his own situation to dominate the news cycle and possibly impact his team's preparation level in the two weeks before a Super Bowl. That, to me, is wholly inexcusable. He also never won a ring in NE. So even if there's a time and a place to put all that behind us and accentuate the positive, I just can't imagine doing it when there are players of the ilk of Seymour and Vrabel in the mix.
 

E5 Yaz

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Would anyone who votes for Parcells offer a defense?

As stated, he was 32-32 overall, even with a Super Bowl trip. And even though his departure led to Belichick being hired, it was truly ugly.

I get the "re-sestablished franchise credibility" angle, but is that alone enough to merit a vote over the long-deserving Seymour, or even Vrabel?
 

tims4wins

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Would anyone who votes for Parcells offer a defense?

As stated, he was 32-32 overall, even with a Super Bowl trip. And even though his departure led to Belichick being hired, it was truly ugly.

I get the "re-sestablished franchise credibility" angle, but is that alone enough to merit a vote over the long-deserving Seymour, or even Vrabel?
Raymond Berry had a better winning % (.552), more wins (48), more playoff wins (3), and the same number of AFC Championships (1). No one is arguing that he should be in the Pats HoF.
 

Caspir

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Fuck Bill Parcells. Seymour is the most deserving, since he will end up in the real HOF soon, and the fact that Vrabel seems like kind of a dick should make it an easy call.
 

JokersWildJIMED

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Would anyone who votes for Parcells offer a defense?

As stated, he was 32-32 overall, even with a Super Bowl trip. And even though his departure led to Belichick being hired, it was truly ugly.

I get the "re-sestablished franchise credibility" angle, but is that alone enough to merit a vote over the long-deserving Seymour, or even Vrabel?
I am not sure I ever hated any sports figure more than Tuna at the end...however,...the team was literally out the door at the end of 1992, and outside of the posters on this board, there were few others in NE that cared. He gave the team credibility from the first day of his press conference, established a winning culture, and built and drafted a SB team. Not sure there is BB if there is no Tuna.
 
Apr 24, 2019
453
The fact that Matt Light got in over Seymour last year is a joke. Seymour has to win the vote this year, I’d be shocked if he didn’t. He was THE GUY on the Patriots Dynasty 1.0 (EDIT: DEFENSE) that other teams had to account for and game plan for.
 
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deanx0

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I am not sure I ever hated any sports figure more than Tuna at the end...however,...the team was literally out the door at the end of 1992, and outside of the posters on this board, there were few others in NE that cared. He gave the team credibility from the first day of his press conference, established a winning culture, and built and drafted a SB team. Not sure there is BB if there is no Tuna.
Yeah, the departure sucked and may have cost the team that Super Bowl, but I honestly believe that without Parcells, they would have been the St. Louis Patriots
 

lexrageorge

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He's got 7 votes in the poll. I was hoping those posters would offer their reasoning
I'll take the bait as one of the 7.

The Pats were an absolute clown circus before Parcells arrived. He brought an air of respectability to the team that was a perennial NFL laughingstock. His departure from the team sucked, but I'm over that. And had Kraft not met with Belichick on the plane ride back from the Super Bowl loss to Green Bay, BB is likely never hired. He is absolutely deserving, IMO.

However, I'm not exactly proud of my vote. If I had a do-over, I would pick Seymour.
 

Old Fart Tree

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All of thats true, but the way he was shooting his way out of down DURING the prep week for a super bowl is unforgivable in my opinion. They were in that game except for special teams... the kind of detail that you might overlook if you were preparing your one departure rather than focusing on every last detail.
 

SemperFidelisSox

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Wow, the Parcells hate is strong. No, the win-loss record isn’t stellar, but his drafting and team building contributed to Super Bowls even after he left, not just the ‘96 team. He helped build a championship core and culture that far lasted his tenure here.
 

E5 Yaz

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Wow, the Parcells hate is strong. No, the win-loss record isn’t stellar, but his drafting and team building contributed to Super Bowls even after he left, not just the ‘96 team. He helped build a championship core and culture that far lasted his tenure here.
So, you're saying he's Dan Duquette.
 

dcdrew10

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Yeah, the departure sucked and may have cost the team that Super Bowl, but I honestly believe that without Parcells, they would have been the St. Louis Patriots
I would accept the argument that Parcells brought an air of respectability and was an important culture change in New England, but I don't buy the idea that his presence kept then from becoming the St. Louis Stallions. Kraft bought the parking lot operating rights and then the stadium with the intention of owning the team and used the stadium lease to block not only the move the St. Louis, but also KIam's attempts to move the team to Jacksonville. I won't deny that Parcells made the purchase of the Patriots more attractive, but it's a stretch that he saved them from moving to St. Louis.
 

lexrageorge

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Wow, the Parcells hate is strong. No, the win-loss record isn’t stellar, but his drafting and team building contributed to Super Bowls even after he left, not just the ‘96 team. He helped build a championship core and culture that far lasted his tenure here.
Bringing in Adam Vinatieri, Lawyer Milloy, Troy Brown, Willie McGinest, Ted Johnson, Ty Law, and Tedy Bruschi forgive a lot of sins, IMO.
 

lexrageorge

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Except Tuna famously wasn’t doing the grocery shopping. Hard to give him credit for the drafting.
Other than the Terry Glenn pick, Parcells had quite a bit of input into who was drafted. That was why he got so upset when Glenn was picked, as it was a real sea change in how the Pats had operated until that point. He essentially decided to draft Bledsoe over Mirer, and also rejected the various trade offers the Pats received for the Bledsoe pick as well.
 

dcdrew10

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Other than the Terry Glenn pick, Parcells had quite a bit of input into who was drafted. That was why he got so upset when Glenn was picked, as it was a real sea change in how the Pats had operated until that point. He essentially decided to draft Bledsoe over Mirer, and also rejected the various trade offers the Pats received for the Bledsoe pick as well.
Would the Patriots have made the Super Bowl without Glenn? Would Duane Clemmons or Tony Brackens (the two most often cited targets for Parcells with the pick) put them over the edge? Imagine if Parcells does make the #6 pick a defensive player, what is the domino effect? If Parcells goes for a DE/LB/Edge with #6 does he draft Lawyer Malloy in the 2nd round or Bruschi in the 3rd or does he go WR in the second? How does that effect the BB Patriots dynasty? Pretty much anything that comes out of Parcells's mouth about that draft is revisionist history.
 

jsinger121

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Would the Patriots have made the Super Bowl without Glenn? Would Duane Clemmons or Tony Brackens (the two most often cited targets for Parcells with the pick) put them over the edge? Imagine if Parcells does make the #6 pick a defensive player, what is the domino effect? If Parcells goes for a DE/LB/Edge with #6 does he draft Lawyer Malloy in the 2nd round or Bruschi in the 3rd or does he go WR in the second? How does that effect the BB Patriots dynasty? Pretty much anything that comes out of Parcells's mouth about that draft is revisionist history.
I'll say this. The 1995 and 1996 drafts set up the Patriots. Law, Ted Johnson, Curtis Martin in 1995. Glenn, Milloy and Bruschi in 1996. These were all in the first 3 rounds. Pretty impressive to hit on all 6 of your draft picks in the first 3 rounds in a two year span. How many teams can say that has happened?
 

lexrageorge

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I don't think it's wrong to say that Parcells is worthy of induction into the Patriots HoF, just not at the expense of Seymour.

I can also see the non-HoF argument: as coach of the Patriots, he won as many Super Bowls and fewer games than Raymond Berry.
 

Mueller's Twin Grannies

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Buckley thinks Parcells was robbed. I didn't really read the whole article since I can't bring myself to reading him anymore. He's the worst part of the Boston Athletic site.
https://theathletic.com/1807057/2020/05/11/bill-parcells-patriots-hall-of-fame/
Anyone still arguing for Parcells is doing so with their heart, not their head, and is basing it (from what I've seen) SOLELY on the notion that he made the Patriots relevant for the first time in the history of ever (which seems a bit revisionist history but whatever) and because he drafted a bunch of guys that would go on to become the foundation for the team that finally won it several seasons after his departure. That and his hiring may have prevented the team being relocated to Hartford.

That is literally all I see in his defense. "He made people pay attention to us" is not now nor has it ever been, as far as I've seen, a major criteria for any Hall of Fame candidate, nor is "drafted well" or "stopped the owner from moving the team." What usually counts is results, especially championships. Going .500 across four seasons and quitting on the team the week of the organization's single most important game (since 1985, where they were basically a speed bump for one of the best teams of all time) over a personnel issue with the owner of the team who also signed his paychecks should not EVER get anyone into any Hall of Fame.

I know guys like Buckley like to cling to the concept of "we were nothing, he made us something" because it allows them to hearken back to when Boston sports (outside of the Celtics, at least for a brief period) was mostly the subject of derision and maybe the Parcells hire did represent, in some way, a seachange of respectability, but even if you want to credit him for the team that won the first Super Bowl under Belichick (which would be extreme but not completely ludicrous), he had no hand in the coaching of the team the season that they won, the decisions made that may have contributed to winning games (e.g. going with the third-string QB instead of the second-string after Bledsoe's injury), or anything that the team did to win that trophy outside of identifying talent and drafting it. But there's no reason to keep looking for that old chip on the shoulder of Boston sports fans as something to point to as a reason to consider someone like Bill Parcells being worthy of the Patriots Hall of Fame. And just because he's a Hall of Fame coach in his career does not mean he gets rubber-stamped in. John Smoltz is in the Hall of Fame but I doubt he'll ever go into the Red Sox Hall of Fame and the reason is basically the same: he didn't do enough while here for it to truly rate.
 

pappymojo

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I think he should be in the Pro Football Hall of Fame. The defense from the years of the first three Super Bowl victories had a ton of great players, but Seymour seemed like the angriest and meanest player on the field. Loved him.

Also, there is this.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ID6QLJxnkn8


While not from his time with the Patriots, it is awesome nonetheless:
 

DourDoerr

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IIRC there was a poll of NFL players when Sey was on the Pats and it was something like "which player are you most afraid of?" and Sey came in first. He definitely gave those early 2000's teams an edge that was the foundation of the dynasty. Couldn't recall a player who was like that on the Pats before. They always seemed to get the Kenneth Sims types. It's telling that he shoves Rothlisberger's chin up into where Ben's brain should be and Ben's lineman seem to engage in a lot of "peacemaking" as retaliation. No one was willing to venture solo down that alley. Big, strong, AND mean was a new (and welcome) thing. Congrats RS!
 

PedroKsBambino

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Anyone still arguing for Parcells is doing so with their heart, not their head, and is basing it (from what I've seen) SOLELY on the notion that he made the Patriots relevant for the first time in the history of ever (which seems a bit revisionist history but whatever) and because he drafted a bunch of guys that would go on to become the foundation for the team that finally won it several seasons after his departure. That and his hiring may have prevented the team being relocated to Hartford.

That is literally all I see in his defense. "He made people pay attention to us" is not now nor has it ever been, as far as I've seen, a major criteria for any Hall of Fame candidate, nor is "drafted well" or "stopped the owner from moving the team." What usually counts is results, especially championships. Going .500 across four seasons and quitting on the team the week of the organization's single most important game (since 1985, where they were basically a speed bump for one of the best teams of all time) over a personnel issue with the owner of the team who also signed his paychecks should not EVER get anyone into any Hall of Fame.

I know guys like Buckley like to cling to the concept of "we were nothing, he made us something" because it allows them to hearken back to when Boston sports (outside of the Celtics, at least for a brief period) was mostly the subject of derision and maybe the Parcells hire did represent, in some way, a seachange of respectability, but even if you want to credit him for the team that won the first Super Bowl under Belichick (which would be extreme but not completely ludicrous), he had no hand in the coaching of the team the season that they won, the decisions made that may have contributed to winning games (e.g. going with the third-string QB instead of the second-string after Bledsoe's injury), or anything that the team did to win that trophy outside of identifying talent and drafting it. But there's no reason to keep looking for that old chip on the shoulder of Boston sports fans as something to point to as a reason to consider someone like Bill Parcells being worthy of the Patriots Hall of Fame. And just because he's a Hall of Fame coach in his career does not mean he gets rubber-stamped in. John Smoltz is in the Hall of Fame but I doubt he'll ever go into the Red Sox Hall of Fame and the reason is basically the same: he didn't do enough while here for it to truly rate.
As has periodically been noted in this forum, the fact is Bill Parcells is a .500 coach with no playoff success without Bill Belichick next to him.

I believe his unique track record of turning around multiple teams (even without Belichick) shows he is more than a generic coach who happened to benefit from a genius assistant, to be clear. But also not as great as some imagine him to be...
 

cornwalls@6

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Congrats to big Sey. They picked the right guy. He was an absolute force on the D line, and core part of the early dynasty years. I think Vrabel eventually gets in. Parcells is complicated. I also get the argument that he changed the culture, gave the franchise credibility, etc. Gave entertaining press conferences. And that the ‘95 and ‘96 drafts, however credit for them is being parsed, provided several key members of the early super bowl titles. But as the man himself liked to say, you are what your record says you are. 32-32, with two playoff years and a super bowl loss is decent enough for a rebuild, but nothing spectacular. And the really shitty way he left, including, by most accounts, not being singularly focused on preparing for that super bowl, but rather spending at least some of his time setting up his next gig, tips it against him for me.
 
Apr 24, 2019
453
That Seymour wasn't in earlier is ridiculous. He was THE player other teams prepared for more than anyone else on that D. Matt Light getting in before Seymour was a travesty. Glad he's finally going to be wearing the red jacket. (To be clear, I'm glad Light's in, too, just didn't agree with the order.)
 

lexrageorge

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That Seymour wasn't in earlier is ridiculous. He was THE player other teams prepared for more than anyone else on that D. Matt Light getting in before Seymour was a travesty. Glad he's finally going to be wearing the red jacket. (To be clear, I'm glad Light's in, too, just didn't agree with the order.)
Matt Light retired a year earlier than Seymour, and there was a bit of backlog when Light was first eligible: McGinest, Faulk, Raymond Clayborn (long overdue) all got in before Light or Seymour. Rodney Harrison snuck in between them. Light was with the Pats for longer (granted, that wasn't Seymour's fault), so I wouldn't call the order of induction a travesty.

Be interesting to see who's next. Besides Vrabel, Wes Welker and Vince Wilfork will be eligible. You also have guys like Deion Branch, Logan Mankins, and Mayo that are at least in the conversation when the backlog thins.
 

Super Nomario

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Matt Light retired a year earlier than Seymour, and there was a bit of backlog when Light was first eligible: McGinest, Faulk, Raymond Clayborn (long overdue) all got in before Light or Seymour. Rodney Harrison snuck in between them. Light was with the Pats for longer (granted, that wasn't Seymour's fault), so I wouldn't call the order of induction a travesty.
Seymour was a three-time First-Team All-Pro. He has better credentials than any of the other players you mention.
 

lexrageorge

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Seymour was a three-time First-Team All-Pro. He has better credentials than any of the other players you mention.
I never claimed they were better, nor did I imply they were better. Please point out where I did in my post.

Seymour wasn't even eligible when McGinest was inducted. And while Seymour may have better credentials than Clayborn, Clayborn's induction was long overdue and that is a consideration. Faulk over Seymour or Light is an interesting one, but he played 161 games as a Patriot and won 3 Lombardi's here. The Pats HoF is not simply the football version of the WAR Hall of Fame, nor should we want it to be.
 

Super Nomario

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I never claimed they were better, nor did I imply they were better. Please point out where I did in my post.
I'm not trying to put words in your mouth. I just think it's dumb that a player like Richard Seymour queues up behind a backlog like he was just some guy and not one of the four or five transcendent players of the dynasty. Sure, put Mike Vrabel in the backlog; Vrabel was a very good player for a long time but not really ever one of the two or three best players on the defense. Seymour should be a backlog-jumper.

Seymour wasn't even eligible when McGinest was inducted. And while Seymour may have better credentials than Clayborn, Clayborn's induction was long overdue and that is a consideration. Faulk over Seymour or Light is an interesting one, but he played 161 games as a Patriot and won 3 Lombardi's here. The Pats HoF is not simply the football version of the WAR Hall of Fame, nor should we want it to be.
Seymour and Light won three Lombardis, too. Faulk over them is dumb.
 

InstaFace

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Is the Patriots HOF a "one person per year" thing?

If so, I think Parcells eventually makes it, once the key players of the BB dynasty are all in. There will be nostalgia, lots of talk about franchise credibility, and people will be more energized by him (with time healing all wounds) than by inducting some non-star journeyman.
 

Jeff Van GULLY

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It would be nice if Parcells got in before he dies or is incapable of giving a good speech. I think he should get in next year.
 
Apr 24, 2019
453
I understand all of this is a silly, “embarrassment of riches“ exchange, but Seymour was a far, far better player than Matt Light, and was, I believe, a finalist the same year that Light got in. That fans voted in Light over Richard Seymour is ludicrous. One was a solid, personable B-level mainstay on the offensive line. A good player, a good guy...and a career long Patriot, which was, I suspect, the determin8ng factor in the final tally. The other was THE BEST DEFENSIVE PLAYER of the first dynasty. IMO, it should’ve been a blow-out, no contest.
 

lexrageorge

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Is the Patriots HOF a "one person per year" thing?

If so, I think Parcells eventually makes it, once the key players of the BB dynasty are all in. There will be nostalgia, lots of talk about franchise credibility, and people will be more energized by him (with time healing all wounds) than by inducting some non-star journeyman.
I think some years they have a slot reserved for old time players that have gone unrecognized.

Then there's the contributor section. I believe Kraft could appoint Parcells as a contributor like he did with Gil Santos.
 

tims4wins

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I think some years they have a slot reserved for old time players that have gone unrecognized.

Then there's the contributor section. I believe Kraft could appoint Parcells as a contributor like he did with Gil Santos.
Right - I think if Parcells gets in it will not be via the annual vote, because there is soon going to be a huge backlog of players. It's already building up.
 

lexrageorge

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Right - I think if Parcells gets in it will not be via the annual vote, because there is soon going to be a huge backlog of players. It's already building up.
Off the top of my head, some deserving players from this era (in no particular order):

Wilfork
Welker
Edelman
Gronk
D. McCourty
Hightower
a random QB
Mankins?
Solder (probably a long shot)
Gilmore?